[Discussion] Bill Nye Vs. Ken Ham - Who won?

Multiply

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
12,839
Reaction score
1,034
[video=youtube;HA3E8wpBO_I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA3E8wpBO_I[/video]
Here is the short version of the debate, but you can find the full debate .

In my opinion Bill Nye dusted Ham simply because Ken Ham did not particularly answer the debate question. He skipped around quite a bit and referenced the bible literally. He never answered Bill when he was challenged on how he dismisses the age of trees, no evidence of a world wide flood in the grand canyon, and the ice that has accumulated over thousands of years.

So what do you guys think. Who do you think won the debate and why?
 

The Necromancer

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
18,138
Reaction score
2,096
Haven't even watched it, and I can tell you Bill won.

The bible isn't even meant to be taken literally... Even the individual writers knew that.
 

Disquiet

Legendary Shinobi 🐸
Supreme
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
32,590
Reaction score
2,096
Wow, when I read the title, I thought for a second that it was one of those battle raps.
 

NaNaNaaaaa

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Veteran
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
2,096
Reaction score
280
I thought this was about the actor LOL
 

Aim64C

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
3,681
Reaction score
608
This wasn't a debate. Neither one really engaged the other. Nye, a hired comedian for a PBS show, doesn't understand the argument put forth by Ham.

Ham, by that same token, does not engage Nye.

This basically boils down to "an opposing presentation of theory."

If you want to engage Ham's argument, then you have to engage his use of the bible.

If you want to engage Nye's argument, then you have to engage the validity of the underlying physical assumptions.

Neither of them have the articulation or base of knowledge to accomplish either.
 

Multiply

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
12,839
Reaction score
1,034
This wasn't a debate. Neither one really engaged the other. Nye, a hired comedian for a PBS show, doesn't understand the argument put forth by Ham.

Ham, by that same token, does not engage Nye.

This basically boils down to "an opposing presentation of theory."

If you want to engage Ham's argument, then you have to engage his use of the bible.

If you want to engage Nye's argument, then you have to engage the validity of the underlying physical assumptions.

Neither of them have the articulation or base of knowledge to accomplish either.

@Bold, Bill Nye graduated from Cornell University as an engineer. I don't understand the argument put forth by Ham either. His entire argument is based on the bible.
 

paratise

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Feb 28, 2013
Messages
16,197
Reaction score
1,899
A religion bait thread how original.

Bill Nye won obviously but i do believ they are not represantations of what they believe in esp. Ken Ham.

There are creationists believe in it with much more different ways with their own interpretations while science is more knowledge based rather than interpretation and subjectivity. So it is harder to chuck religion/creation believers in one train of thought.
 

Multiply

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
12,839
Reaction score
1,034
A religion bait thread how original.

Bill Nye won obviously but i do believ they are not represantations of what they believe in esp. Ken Ham.

There are creationists believe in it with much more different ways with their own interpretations while science is more knowledge based rather than interpretation and subjectivity. So it is harder to chuck religion/creation believers in one train of thought.
Bait...? How do you figure it's a religion bait thread.
 

Aim64C

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
3,681
Reaction score
608
@Bold, Bill Nye graduated from Cornell University as an engineer.

His main education is as a mechanical engineer - mainly aviation hydraulics.

His work as a consultant never really panned out and he began appearing on comedy segments, occasionally performing textbook science experiments like a sort of magician.

He's not a complete and total ditz - but his understanding of science can be described as textbook regurgitation more so than a philosophical grasp.

Which is why:

I don't understand the argument put forth by Ham either. His entire argument is based on the bible.

I stated it elsewhere:

What would a world created 6,000 years ago look like?

How old are fictional characters? If we're discussing anime characters - individuals like Conan Etogawa from Detective Conan (Case Closed in English adaptions) have been around for -years- (you want to talk about a manga that keeps on going... the dude has been a kid long enough to graduate from college twice).

How old is the fictional world of Narnia?

"Hundreds of years old" - you might say, but would people from hundreds of years ago know of what you were speaking when you told them of Narnia?

Yet how do you explain the mountains and ancient settings in Narnia, if we accept that Narnia is only as old as its author's portrayal of it?

We create things that look older than they actually are all the time. Why would a created Earth be any different?

Like I said - Ham also lacks articulation and both simply regurgitate their viewpoints without really engaging each other.

To engage Nye requires a more technical understanding of our limitations in accuracy. You must make an argument against the completeness of knowledge that Nye could appreciate.

To engage Ham requires a more intricate knowledge of scripture. Again, you must make an argument against the completeness of knowledge that he could appreciate.

Only then can you begin to discuss the philosophy of both ideologies.

The problem is that neither of them truthfully understand the nature of their own ideology. Nye does not understand that he inherently believes that the laws of nature must play out in reverse until a beginning can be inferred; while Ham does not understand that he believes in a universe where natural laws do not have to play out to a hypothetical beginning.

Ham should be asking Nye: "What evidence is there that the laws of nature must play out indefinitely in reverse until we reach a mathematical beginning? Just because video games have a set of physical laws does not mean playing them in reverse will yield information about their origin."

Likewise - Nye should be asking this:

"By what means are you arriving at the conclusion that the biblical account of a global flood is truly global? Is it not possible that the account was exacerbated?

In the book of Genesis, we find the statement that the blink of an eye to God can be a thousand years to Man. Further, the original Hebrew text within Genesis reads more properly: "On the day of" or "In the time of" - which suggests a marking of phases of creation rather than literal days as we recognize on Earth. Would it not be possible that the Earth were -developed- as a part of a created process in a way more similar to how current scientific models suggest?"

The problem is that before you can truthfully debate for position, you have to stand on the same ground. The two are speaking from such different ground that they aren't even able to speak the same language and they don't understand that they aren't speaking in comprehensible terms to each other because they fail to realize how fundamentally distinct their ideologies are from each other.
 

Multiply

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
12,839
Reaction score
1,034
His main education is as a mechanical engineer - mainly aviation hydraulics.

His work as a consultant never really panned out and he began appearing on comedy segments, occasionally performing textbook science experiments like a sort of magician.

He's not a complete and total ditz - but his understanding of science can be described as textbook regurgitation more so than a philosophical grasp.

Which is why:



I stated it elsewhere:

What would a world created 6,000 years ago look like?

How old are fictional characters? If we're discussing anime characters - individuals like Conan Etogawa from Detective Conan (Case Closed in English adaptions) have been around for -years- (you want to talk about a manga that keeps on going... the dude has been a kid long enough to graduate from college twice).

How old is the fictional world of Narnia?

"Hundreds of years old" - you might say, but would people from hundreds of years ago know of what you were speaking when you told them of Narnia?

Yet how do you explain the mountains and ancient settings in Narnia, if we accept that Narnia is only as old as its author's portrayal of it?

We create things that look older than they actually are all the time. Why would a created Earth be any different?

Like I said - Ham also lacks articulation and both simply regurgitate their viewpoints without really engaging each other.

To engage Nye requires a more technical understanding of our limitations in accuracy. You must make an argument against the completeness of knowledge that Nye could appreciate.

To engage Ham requires a more intricate knowledge of scripture. Again, you must make an argument against the completeness of knowledge that he could appreciate.

Only then can you begin to discuss the philosophy of both ideologies.

The problem is that neither of them truthfully understand the nature of their own ideology. Nye does not understand that he inherently believes that the laws of nature must play out in reverse until a beginning can be inferred; while Ham does not understand that he believes in a universe where natural laws do not have to play out to a hypothetical beginning.

Ham should be asking Nye: "What evidence is there that the laws of nature must play out indefinitely in reverse until we reach a mathematical beginning? Just because video games have a set of physical laws does not mean playing them in reverse will yield information about their origin."

Likewise - Nye should be asking this:

"By what means are you arriving at the conclusion that the biblical account of a global flood is truly global? Is it not possible that the account was exacerbated?

In the book of Genesis, we find the statement that the blink of an eye to God can be a thousand years to Man. Further, the original Hebrew text within Genesis reads more properly: "On the day of" or "In the time of" - which suggests a marking of phases of creation rather than literal days as we recognize on Earth. Would it not be possible that the Earth were -developed- as a part of a created process in a way more similar to how current scientific models suggest?"

The problem is that before you can truthfully debate for position, you have to stand on the same ground. The two are speaking from such different ground that they aren't even able to speak the same language and they don't understand that they aren't speaking in comprehensible terms to each other because they fail to realize how fundamentally distinct their ideologies are from each other.

That's a good point.
 

Ero sennin jiraiya

Jōnin Strategist 🧠
Regular
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
1,744
Reaction score
94
This wasn't a debate. Neither one really engaged the other. Nye, a hired comedian for a PBS show, doesn't understand the argument put forth by Ham.

Ham, by that same token, does not engage Nye.

This basically boils down to "an opposing presentation of theory."

If you want to engage Ham's argument, then you have to engage his use of the bible.

If you want to engage Nye's argument, then you have to engage the validity of the underlying physical assumptions.

Neither of them have the articulation or base of knowledge to accomplish either.

I don't know what debate you watched but what I saw was bill pretty easily picking apart all of ken Hams arguments for a young earth and a global flood. He used scientific facts to drive his point across and ham simply kept referencing the bible, and in the day and age it's ridiculous to base all of your beliefs on the bible which while has some good moral content also has things I and many others consider detestable.

Bills goal was simply to show people they shouldn't blindly follow religion. Science is what has gotten humanity where it is today. It worries me that young people believe these fables and base their view of the earth and life off of it. We need a generation of intelligent innovators not bible thumpers. Religion has no place in classrooms as it is unscientific at its core.
 

Aim64C

Anbu Operative 🎭
Veteran
Joined
Dec 18, 2012
Messages
3,681
Reaction score
608
I don't know what debate you watched but what I saw was bill pretty easily picking apart all of ken Hams arguments for a young earth and a global flood. He used scientific facts to drive his point across and ham simply kept referencing the bible, and in the day and age it's ridiculous to base all of your beliefs on the bible which while has some good moral content also has things I and many others consider detestable.

Bills goal was simply to show people they shouldn't blindly follow religion. Science is what has gotten humanity where it is today. It worries me that young people believe these fables and base their view of the earth and life off of it. We need a generation of intelligent innovators not bible thumpers. Religion has no place in classrooms as it is unscientific at its core.

Again, it wasn't a debate.

It was two people who didn't understand the fundamental difference of their perspective base for reasoning.

The problem is that neither young earth nor evolutionary earth (or whatever) are scientific. Science requires testable theory and it is logically impossible to test origins.

I re-iterate:

Naruto characters can sit and ponder about the origins of the Naruto-Universe all they want to. They can use the 'conservation of chakra' and various geological clues to try and figure out how old the mountain that made up the Hokage monument is. At the end of the day - the reality is that their universe didn't exist before they existed even though it has an emergent history within it.

Likewise - nothing says our universe had to play out step by step, second by second, eon by eon, before it came to its current state. It is merely our human assumption that time and our universe have always existed as they do, currently.



As you can see - Quantum Mechanics does not require that time exist. In fact, one could say that time is a perspective illusion generated from entanglement. If there were some outside observer peering in on our universe - time, and even our very existence, is null.

Since we can create 'toy universes' for the purposes of experiments with quantum entanglement - the idea that we are a product of something far beyond our current capability and physical understanding is simply an extrapolation of our current endeavors to a much grander scale.

Consider:

How old are the planets in games like Star Bound?

They are procedurally generated using a common set of values and mathematical equations. They exist as a mathematical property of the values and program that create them. They will always generate the same way each and every time no matter who plays the game, when they start their game, how long they have been playing the game, etc. But, by that same token - the computer doesn't bother spending processing time or memory rendering the planets until the player accesses them.

So.

How old is the planet?

Where did it come from?

All of our ideas and predictions about how the universe came into being are based on conjecture and mathematical speculation that has been illustrated to be wrong.

Further, our concept of things like time and space are based largely around very early ideas and concepts pertinent mainly to the limited scope of earthly engineering. As we dig deeper into the fabric of our universe, we keep seeing how these ideas, serviceable that they are, do not properly describe the nature of our universe and will never be able to completely describe the universe we inhabit.
 

Multiply

Kage in the Making 👑
Legendary
Joined
Apr 15, 2012
Messages
12,839
Reaction score
1,034
Further, our concept of things like time and space are based largely around very early ideas and concepts pertinent mainly to the limited scope of earthly engineering. As we dig deeper into the fabric of our universe, we keep seeing how these ideas, serviceable that they are, do not properly describe the nature of our universe and will never be able to completely describe the universe we inhabit.

I disagree. I think in the future we will understand more of the universe. Until we are masters of the universe. :rolleyes:
 
Top