Bee and Tobirama vs Onoki and Minato

[Beans2]

Location: Gaara vs 4th Kazekage
Conditions: Minato and Tobirama are alive
Intel: Manga
Starting distance: 25 meters

Scenario 1: Jinton and Edo Tensei are restricted
Scenario 2: No restrictions

 

[GokuEn]

I saw Team 1 high diff. Tobirama > Minato when alive and Bee can blitz Onoki with V2 Lariat

 

[ARGUS]

Team 2 wins scenario 1
Killer bee Nd tobirama win scenario 2

 

[Ababeel]

Minato & Onoki win this.

Minato outclassed Tobirama, and he's the superior one as shown and stated in the manga. B is not much of a problem either
as Minato was able to outclass him with A, actually thinking about it more, Minato can probably solo this. But, for the sake of the argument, with Onoki's Jinton, there is no way they are losing this.

 

[DMT]

Onoki > Bee

Tobirama = Minato

Team 2 high diff

 

[Beans2]

Minato and Onoki have a pretty sick combo (food cart destroyer + weighted boulder on the frog) which could definitely immobilize Bee if he goes full Hachibi...But Tobirama could teleport him to safety.

 

[Penguin]

Team one high diff. Either opponent on team one can match up with either opponent on team two and have a decent chance at winning.

 

[ARGUS]

Minato & Onoki win this.

Minato outclassed Tobirama, and he's the superior one as shown and stated in the manga. B is not much of a problem either
as Minato was able to outclass him with A, actually thinking about it more, Minato can probably solo this. But, for the sake of the argument, with Onoki's Jinton, there is no way they are losing this.

No way in hell is minato soloing another FTG user along with a perfect jinchuuriki,,,,
u do know,, that Tobirama can assist Killer Bee with FTG as well,, and try to teleport his TBB straight to team 2,,

 

[DMT]

Tobirama can assist Killer Bee with FTG as well,, and try to teleport his TBB straight to team 2,,

And Minato can Do it with Onoki's help

He can teleport his Jinton to team 1

 

[Draphsin]

Team 1 takes S1 mid diff & S2 high diff.

 

[Lana Del Taka]

Team 1 wins first one. Team 2 wins second one.

Nvm, i forgot Minato doesnt have Kurama anymore. Team 1 wins both.

 

[Ababeel]

No way in hell is minato soloing another FTG user along with a perfect jinchuuriki,,,,
u do know,, that Tobirama can assist Killer Bee with FTG as well,, and try to teleport his TBB straight to team 2,,

1- Even a second on a battle of speed can change a lot of things. We have seen this against A & Obito. A has a much faster foot speed than Tobirama, yet he almost got K.O'd in no time, and Obito has a much better S/T jutsu than Tobirama as well, and he lost in less than a minute as well. So, I don't see how and why would Tobirama be any different.

2- Minato was dealing with this same perfect host with his brother, who was also known to be the fastest after Minato. So, why won't he be able to do it here?

3- How would he teleport B's TBB to team 2 without teleporting with it? Not to mention, unlike Minato, Tobirama does not have Kunais, and he also can't strike as fast and far as Minato.

Now, Onoki is also here, and his jinton is basically a 1-shot hit. With Minato with him, a batter teleporter, faster, and has more chakra than Tobirama, I don't see how can they possibly lose this. Hell, Minato is even a sealing jutsu master, who can remove even the already sealed Bijuu, how bad will that be against B? U_U

 

[Penguin]

1- Even a second on a battle of speed can change a lot of things. We have seen this against A & Obito. A has a much faster foot speed than Tobirama, yet he almost got K.O'd in no time, and Obito has a much better S/T jutsu than Tobirama as well, and he lost in less than a minute as well. So, I don't see how and why would Tobirama be any different.

Tobirama has far better reaction rates than Ei, so your argument holds no point. Obito had better S/T than Minato, and Minato still hit him.

2- Minato was dealing with this same perfect host with his brother, who was also known to be the fastest after Minato. So, why won't he be able to do it here?

Killer B has more experience now, and stalemated with Minato.

3- How would he teleport B's TBB to team 2 without teleporting with it? Not to mention, unlike Minato, Tobirama does not have Kunais, and he also can't strike as fast and far as Minato.

Tobirama doesn't have kunai? You must be shitting me. Tobirama's striking speed > Minato's by feats. Tobirama can canon teleport Bijuudama. You don't need S/T barrier.

Now, Onoki is also here, and his jinton is basically a 1-shot hit. With Minato with him, a batter teleporter, faster, and has more chakra than Tobirama, I don't see how can they possibly lose this. Hell, Minato is even a sealing jutsu master, who can remove even the already sealed Bijuu, how bad will that be against B? U_U

Onoki will never get Jinton off. TBB spam from Kirabi along with a shunshin from Tobirama basically ends them. Minato would have to use S/T Barrier or let Onoki die, and if Minato has S/T Barrier up, Tobirama marks him and Hiraishingiri's. All but one of your claims are baseless. Tobirama is not as fast, but his speed with FTG is not worse. Chakra claim is baseless.

 

[Ababeel]

=Penguin.;15207393]Tobirama has far better reaction rates than Ei, so your argument holds no point. Obito had better S/T than Minato, and Minato still hit him.

1- A's reaction speed is on par with Minato, who has better reaction speed than Tobirama

C: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...

and before you say "oh, but Tobirama was able to react to obito" That's cool and all, but he basically "died" to accomplish that. He's not ET here, so that won't work.

2- That's a point for Minato, he was able to do that against someone who has better S/T jutsu, so doing that
against someone who has worst S/T jutsu than his should be easier

Killer B has more experience now, and stalemated with Minato.

Tell me more, when has the experience EVER played a major role?
Naruto and Sasuke are barely 17, yet go back and reread the last 2 chapters, and see for yourself
what they did to madara who's probably older than them by 80 years or so...

Tobirama doesn't have kunai? You must be shitting me. Tobirama's striking speed > Minato's by feats. Tobirama can canon teleport Bijuudama. You don't need S/T barrier.

1- lol, Tobirama has one Kunai he did during this battle, he does not have already sealed Kunais. Or else why does he rely on Minato's Kunais? Lol

2- The heck? What feats are you talking about that Tobirama has with striking? Please give me this feats that rival Minato's feats by putting the Kunais all around the juubi before Tobirama could even arrive.

3- I did not say he can't, what I said he will have to go with it as well. Not to mention, he will need seals in that area as well.

Onoki will never get Jinton off. TBB spam from Kirabi along with a shunshin from Tobirama basically ends them. Minato would have to use S/T Barrier or let Onoki die, and if Minato has S/T Barrier up, Tobirama marks him and Hiraishingiri's. All but one of your claims are baseless. Tobirama is not as fast, but his speed with FTG is not worse. Chakra claim is baseless.

1- TBB spam, get redirected at them via S/T barrier.
2- How would Tobirama mark him exactly? He will need to go to him + Minato can use clones, you know. Not to mention he his frogs as well.

And, no, Tobirama's speed is not enough to reach Minato before he end using the Barrier.
Because Minato arrived to the battlefield, used the barrier, put the Kunais around the Juubi, had a conversation with Naruto, and that's all before Tobirama arrive, so from where is he going to have
all this sudden speed to arrive before Minato can finish using the barrier, when he couldn't in the manga??


his FTG is worst by his own admission, and the chakra claims, Minato is a perfect SM in case you forgot.

The Chakra.

Some people may argue that Tobirama has more chakra than Minato, and that based heavily on Obito's statement about Asura and what he inherited from his father [

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]. But, is that true? No, probably not. The first thing, obito according to that translation did not even mention the chakra to begin with to say that Tobirama must have it more than Minato based on his linage, but only it was proven later on that only because you're related to a person, does not necessarily mean that you get everything automatically, and that happened to Asura himself [

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], what are the odds that it did not happen to Tobirama who came several hundreds of years after him?

On the other hand, we know for sure that Minato had a massive amount of chakra since he has a perfect SM, which required such a huge chakra [

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].

In addition to that, some people might use the argument that Tobirama made the wall cracks, but how does that prove that he has more chakra than Minato? have not Hiruzen and Oro done the same thing during their fight? But still they did not get all that much chakra, Hiruzen has only 3 in the Databook, so that feats does not really prove anything at all.

Also, stating that Minato get tired after teleporting Kurama means he does not have great chakra, or Tobirama has more because he teleported both Kuramas. That is cool and all, except, Minato was alive back then, and he dealt with Kushina's seals for hours and then fought obito and all the other things. HOWEVER, Tobirama was only an ET, and he got his chakra restored every time he gets drained, so it's just natural that he won't worry about that stuff. Had he been alive, he wouldn't have been able to continue fighting after the 4 suns barrier since he was already exhausted before the fight even start [

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]. So, I don't think it's fair to compare the 2 situations!

I also find the fact that Tobirama is not a SM user like his brother is proof that he does not have enough chakra to learn it.

 

[Penguin]

This is my last post, as I know I cannot change your view on this matter.

1- A's reaction speed is on par with Minato, who has better reaction speed than Tobirama
C: Lord Raikage's nerve transmissions and his reaction speed are on par with that of Konoha's yellow flash.....Impressive these folks are keeping up as well as they are. But Lord Raikage has manipulated raiton chakra to augment his reflexes! Not even the sharingan will be able to keep up with him. Plus, there's still...

and before you say "oh, but Tobirama was able to react to obito" That's cool and all, but he basically "died" to accomplish that. He's not ET here, so that won't work.

Tobirama does have better reaction speed. He reacted to Juubito's shunshin by tagging him five times. That is a better striking and reaction feat that Minato has. It is true Tobirama had to die, but he still reacted to the immense speed of Juubito, who is miles ahead of Minato. No one knew about Juubito's speed prior to the blitz. It is kinda funny how Minato couldn't react to a Juubito staff slash before getting his arm cut off, and he had FTG at his disposal, unlike Tobirama. Juubito didn't even use shunshin.

2- That's a point for Minato, he was able to do that against someone who has better S/T jutsu, so doing that
against someone who has worst S/T jutsu than his should be easier

You contradicted yourself. You said Tobirama has worse S/T than Obito, so he will get hit. But Minato has worse S/T than Obito, and hit someone with superior S/T. Just because you have superior variants of S/T doesn't make you the winner in a S/T fight.

Tell me more, when has the experience EVER played a major role?
Naruto and Sasuke are barely 17, yet go back and reread the last 2 chapters, and see for yourself
what they did to madara who's probably older than them by 80 years or so...

You say experience holds no merit in a fight at all?

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. Tobirama grew up in an era Minato is not used to. He takes action before others, thinks of very quick plans that are effective, and doesn't let his emotions get in the way of his fights. Experience does matter.

1- lol, Tobirama has one Kunai he did during this battle, he does not have already sealed Kunais. Or else why does he rely on Minato's Kunais? Lol

If your argument consists of Tobirama not having multiple kunai, a ninja tool everyone has had since they graduated the academy, then I lost all hope for you.

2- The heck? What feats are you talking about that Tobirama has with striking? Please give me this feats that rival
Minato's feats by putting the Kunais all around the juubi before Tobirama could even arrive.

Hitting Juubito five times within an instant. At minimum it was two strikes, a phenomenal feat considering Juubito has shown the fastest shunshin in the manga. Also, Hiruzen arrived with Tobirama. Tobirama's shunshin > Madara's > 3rd Raikage's. Unless you think Hiruzen > 3rd Raikage in shunshin, then they didn't go there as fast as they could. They were keeping back with Hiruzen.

3- I did not say he can't, what I said he will have to go with it as well. Not to mention, he will need seals in that area as well.

A kage bunshin would suffice.

1- TBB spam, get redirected at them via S/T barrier.
2- How would Tobirama mark him exactly? He will need to go to him + Minato can use clones, you know.
Not to mention he his frogs as well.

TBB Spam would be redirected via barrier, but whilst the barrier is up, Tobirama marks Minato. Tobirama's clones cancel out Minato's, and Minato cannt summon frogs as he uses FTG barrier as he makes clones. TBB Spam + shunshin ends Minato.

his FTG is worst by his own admission, and the chakra claims, Minato is a perfect SM in case you forgot.

Where does he admit this? I would like a VIZ scan before I say something. And? You need a good amount of chakra for SM, but Tobirama is a Senju and has fought for 24 hours against Madara with the help of Hashirama. He also outlasted Izuna until his sharingan wore off then killed him.

 

[ARGUS]

1- Even a second on a battle of speed can change a lot of things. We have seen this against A & Obito. A has a much faster foot speed than Tobirama, yet he almost got K.O'd in no time, and Obito has a much better S/T jutsu than Tobirama as well, and he lost in less than a minute as well. So, I don't see how and why would Tobirama be any different.

Obito has a much better S/T jutsu then Minato,, yet he still lost,,,,,
-The fact that Tobiramas arsenal is relatively the exact same as Minato is why i think its absurd to claim that minto can beat tobirama and killer bee together,,,,

2- Minato was dealing with this same perfect host with his brother, who was also known to be the fastest after Minato. So, why won't he be able to do it here?

Again,,, unlike A,, Tobirama has FTG,, which is instant jus like Minatos,, their foot speed might differ but Killer BEe has more than enough firepower to use TBB that bypass the limits of Minatos FTG

3- How would he teleport B's TBB to team 2 without teleporting with it? Not to mention, unlike Minato, Tobirama does not have Kunais, and he also can't strike as fast and far as Minato.

Tobirama has already stated that he can teleport TBB,,, through FTG,, he can use KB to create the chakra link and teleport the TBB to another mark,,,,,
-Tobirama has also shown to be able to mark kunais and has used them in quite a similar way as Minato,,,

Now, Onoki is also here, and his jinton is basically a 1-shot hit. With Minato with him, a batter teleporter, faster, and has more chakra than Tobirama, I don't see how can they possibly lose this. Hell, Minato is even a sealing jutsu master, who can remove even the already sealed Bijuu, how bad will that be against B? U_U

Killer Bees TBB would also one shot onoki,, since he clearly lacks the durabiliy to tank such an attack,,, furthermore the charge up time for jinton is going to cost onoki here,,,
-@Bold - what load of crap,,, Tobirama is a full blooded senju,, and alongside hashirama and madara fought wars that lasted for days,, without tiring out,,,,
-the fact that Killer Bee can beat Onoki,,, and that either Tobirama or Killer Bee can give Minato a hell of a fight is why i think Killer Bee and TObirama would win this,,,,

 

[Ababeel]

=Penguin.;15207726]
Tobirama does have better reaction speed. He reacted to Juubito's shunshin by tagging him five times. That is a better striking and reaction feat that Minato has. It is true Tobirama had to die, but he still reacted to the immense speed of Juubito, who is miles ahead of Minato. No one knew about Juubito's speed prior to the blitz. It is kinda funny how Minato couldn't react to a Juubito staff slash before getting his arm cut off, and he had FTG at his disposal, unlike Tobirama. Juubito didn't even use shunshin.

Tobirama lost half of his body against MINDLESS obito, what Minato faced is obito in control, and he lost only an arm.
In addition to that, Minato was facing his OWN student, unlike Tobirama, and he got emotional here

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the 3rd panel after obito talked to him

You contradicted yourself. You said Tobirama has worse S/T than Obito, so he will get hit. But Minato has worse S/T than Obito, and hit someone with superior S/T. Just because you have superior variants of S/T doesn't make you the winner in a S/T fight.

Again, as I just said, that's feat is MINATO'S. That just a proof of how skillful Minato is, so if he can counter someone
with a superior jutsu, when can't he use the same against some one with inferior jutsu, and inferior skills?

You say experience holds no merit in a fight at all?

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. Tobirama grew up in an era Minato is not used to. He takes action before others, thinks of very quick plans that are effective, and doesn't let his emotions get in the way of his fights. Experience does matter.

I honestly not sure what does those pages have to do with experince honestly. O_O
- Tobirama grew up in a war area, and he got floored via Kin & Gin. Minato grew up in a war area as well, but
unlike Tobirama, he is the one who floored them. As for the plans, Minato is not any less than him.

As for the emotions part, we have never seen Tobirama go against one of his own students/brothers...etc
(except against Hiruzen, but he was mindless) so, what you stated is pretty much baseless. Not as that matters though since Minato won't get emotional against them anyway. They are not his students, nor his family.

If your argument consists of Tobirama not having multiple kunai, a ninja tool everyone has had since they graduated the academy, then I lost all hope for you.

Lol, did I say he does not have Kunais? No, I did not.
What I said is he does not have Kunais with FTG seals already prepared like Minato.

Hitting Juubito five times within an instant. At minimum it was two strikes, a phenomenal feat considering Juubito has shown the fastest shunshin in the manga. Also, Hiruzen arrived with Tobirama. Tobirama's shunshin > Madara's > 3rd Raikage's. Unless you think Hiruzen > 3rd Raikage in shunshin, then they didn't go there as fast as they could. They were keeping back with Hiruzen.

1- none of those were with Kunais. Also, again he lost has to die for that, even if we assumed he was able to do so here and died, what the point?

2- What? Yes they went there as fast as they could. Actually, Tobirama couldn't even wait to go had it not been for Oro stopping him, and you tell me they were not using their full speed? Lol
baseless assumption like this can be made both ways. We can assume that Minato did not use his full speed either. :erm:

A kage bunshin would suffice.

Good enough. Though he will have to lose more than half of his chakra just for simple things.

TBB Spam would be redirected via barrier, but whilst the barrier is up, Tobirama marks Minato. Tobirama's clones cancel out Minato's, and Minato cannt summon frogs as he uses FTG barrier as he makes clones. TBB Spam + shunshin ends Minato.

As I said, Tobirama is not fast enough for that. It's MANGA CANON than Minato can use the barrier and finish it
before Tobirama can do anything. So, I'm not honestly sure why are you trying to ignore what already happened in
the manga. :Omg:

Where does he admit this? I would like a VIZ scan before I say something. And? You need a good amount of chakra for SM, but Tobirama is a Senju and has fought for 24 hours against Madara with the help of Hashirama. He also outlasted Izuna until his sharingan wore off then killed him.

Well, fine.

In Term of Jutsus.

Both of these ninja are relying heavily on their teleporting jutsus, FTG. However, Minato is greater than Tobirama with the teleporting jutsus as Tobirama admitted in two places, [

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][

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]. However, some people may argue 2 things. The first is that FTG cannot be slower since it's a teleporting jutsu. However, that was proven wrong by Tobirama himself [

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]. The other thing is that Tobirama said "shunshin" not "FTG". However, FTG was called as a shunshin like 12 times, that cannot be a coincidence, or can it be?
[

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2- Being senju does not makes you have more chakra automatically. Also, madara was fighting Hashirama, not the whole clan by himself, that's ridiculous despite Hashirama alone is stronger than him. And we know nothing about Izuna, so I don't know why did you bring him up, for all we know, he may have as bad of chakra as itachi, we simply
don't know. If Tobirama has all that much chakra, he would have probably learn SM as his brother.

Obito has a much better S/T jutsu then Minato,, yet he still lost,,,,,
-The fact that Tobiramas arsenal is relatively the exact same as Minato is why i think its absurd to claim that minto can beat tobirama and killer bee together,,,,

- Yeah, and that a bonus for Minato, not for Tobiama. So, I'm not sure why do you want to give Minato's accomplish to Tobirama exactly.

- They are not exactly the same though, Minato has most of Tobirama's jutsus, but he's better than him. In addition to that, he has sealing jutsus, and the frogs, SM...etc

BSM Naruto has the same jutsus as living Minato/ Jman, and actually even less, yet he's way stronger.

or current Yamato (or the zetsu if you will) he has the Buddha and the other wood jutsus, do you think he's as powerful as Hashirama?

Again,,, unlike A,, Tobirama has FTG,, which is instant jus like Minatos,, their foot speed might differ but Killer BEe has more than enough firepower to use TBB that bypass the limits of Minatos FTG

FTG = FTG is fanfiction due to people trying to make real life things appeal to the manga. However, TOBIRAMA HIMSELF stated otherwise.

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and even the very fact that there is level 1 and level 2 counteracts this fanfiction, because if they were the same, it wouldn't make any sense to have level 2!

- Too bad, B's TBB are useless against Minato, as Minato can use his S/T barriers, and I think it's rather fanny that you always try to say that Minato's S/T barrier will fail against everything except the Projectiles (baseless argument of course) and now when it came to Projectiles, you say it will exceeds Minato's limit? Lol
do you also think B's TBBs any where near as big or powerful as the Juubi's TBB? Because I don't.

Tobirama has already stated that he can teleport TBB,,, through FTG,, he can use KB to create the chakra link and teleport the TBB to another mark,,,,,
-Tobirama has also shown to be able to mark kunais and has used them in quite a similar way as Minato,,,

He will have to put the marks at first, and we have not seen Tobirama cover any huge area as Minato. Not to mention, dealing with TBB here for him is useless because B is on his team. However, if Minato used some compo with Onoki for example, how is Tobirama going to touch the jinton with his own body (or even with clones) to get rid of it?

Also, remember in scenario one, Tobirama does not get his ET, and thus, he can't even use his explosion jutsu. Those basically are his strongest offensive jutsus. The only things left for him are weak water jutsus. Minato's frogs can deal with that as their offensive jutsu will easily out classed Tobirama's water jutsus, and he won't be able to kill them with a Kunai either. :erm:

Killer Bees TBB would also one shot onoki,, since he clearly lacks the durabiliy to tank such an attack,,, furthermore the charge up time for jinton is going to cost onoki here,,,
-@Bold - what load of crap,,, Tobirama is a full blooded senju,, and alongside hashirama and madara fought wars that lasted for days,, without tiring out,,,,
-the fact that Killer Bee can beat Onoki,,, and that either Tobirama or Killer Bee can give Minato a hell of a fight is why i think Killer Bee and TObirama would win this,,,,

Using TBB while knowing Minato is there will be a foolish move from B, because it will just redirected to his face. Or, Minato can simply teleport Onoki away via chakra links. Now, you might say Tobirama can teleport B, but teleporting a tiny Onoki is not the same as teleporting a huge Bijuu.

- Sorry, but what you said is full of crap. Itachi is a full uchiha as well, yet his chakra is barely more than Ten Ten.
Tsunade is a senju yet she got 4 in the DB3, while Jman has 5, and guess what? Minato has even more chakra since he was able to have a better SM than Jiraiya. So, unless you give a better examples than some crappy excuses (his bloodline) then, I see no reason to think otherwise.

Again,
itachi is a fully uchiha ~> got 2.5
Tsunade is a senju & uzumaki ~> got 4
Sasuke (in the 3rd Databook) has 3 or 3.5

Asura, who's the Sage's son directly did not have his power just because he was Hagorom's son, so that's just utter BS excuse if you asked me.


As for fighting Wars, that's sad, because if you don't remember Minato fought in a War and he ended it as well, unlike
both Hashirama and Tobirama who got their asses handled to them. Lol


- Onoki can kill be as will with his Jinton, and if B used his Bijuu transformation, he will just make it easier to hit him.

- B, was trembling from Minato's name, and you can think he will give Minato a hard fight, that your own problem. What the manga showed and stated is the fact that B always had his brother as a back up, and they never beat Minato to the point that A stated to man can surpass Minato, and B trembled to even mentioning his name!

anyway, that's only my opinion.