Conditions: Jiraiya starts in sage mode. Itachi is not blind and his sickness isn't going to have him coughing up blood. Itachi retains the chakra reserves he had against Hebi Sasuke. Knowledge: Manga + Jman knows Itachi is a MS user while Itachi knows Jman is a sage mode user. Restrictions: Izanami, Shisui's eye, Yata Mirror hype Location: Cave where Chiyo and Sakura fought Sasori (
It doesn't matter if you restrict or unrestrict genjutsu in this fight as long as Jiraiya has Shima and Fukasaku on his shoulders, inserting new chakra into his system every second.
It doesn't matter if you restrict or unrestrict genjutsu in this fight as long as Jiraiya has Shima and Fukasaku on his shoulders, inserting new chakra into his system every second.
Exactly. they are constantly adding chaka to his system in SM. The only reason its restricted is so that Jman won't solo him in 5 minutes with Frog Sound.
Exactly. they are constantly adding chaka to his system in SM. The only reason its restricted is so that Jman won't solo him in 5 minutes with Frog Sound.
Lol it's true, restricting genjutsu is more of a handicap to Jiraiya as it is to Itachi. Icelerate was the one who suggested the restriction though. Plus it helps Jiraiya since summons can't be controlled with genjutsu.
Well I never liked intros much so I'll just get to the point. Before I start the debate, however I would like it to be noted that Jiraiya, especially in Sage Mode has far superior stamina and chakra reserves than Itachi, I would include scans but I feel this is fairly obvious. Itachi's poor stamina isn't something that I will be exploiting much in this debate, but it is worth mentioning that the longer the battle drags on for, the more the tide of the battle turns in favor of Jiraiya and some techniques Itachi should avoid overusing (for his own safety) include Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano'o, and kage bunshins. There is a limit to how many times he can use MS techniques (seeing how one Tsukuyomi usage put a strain on his body
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and Itachi needed to rest after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu once each
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.)
Something else I want to note is that
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on many matters
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but especially about Akatsuki. They have already discussed Itachi in the past.
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And they continued to discuss Akatsuki and exchange intel after the time skip
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Kakashi undoubtedly told Jiraiya of his encounters with Itachi and shared intel on his techniques. Therefore, Jiraiya should know more or less everything that Kakashi knew about Itachi. Kakashi, having fought him twice, knows much of Itachi's abilities including his shunshin, hand seal speed, shurikenjutsu, clone feints, katon, genjutsu, etc.
Jiraiya is also much more aware of Itachi's abilities in Part II than he was during his encounter with him in Part I. At that point in time all Jiraiya knew about Itachi was that he was a sharingan user who manipulated a woman to try and seduce him. In Part II Jiraiya knows of his Mangekyou Sharingan, his genjutsu (which put Kakashi and Sasuke in the hospital and required an expert medic like Tsunade to heal them), and even knows a little on Amaterasu, seeing as he sealed it in a scroll and most likely later analyzed it for study
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. So if you bring up the point about Jiraiya making eye contact with Itachi in their last encounter, Jiraiya is much more aware of his genjutsu now and will be sure to avoid looking in Itachi's eyes.
Defense
Dealing with Genjutsu
I'd like to point out that Jiraiya is immune to most of Itachi's genjutsu due to the fact that he starts this battle in Sage Mode with Ma and Pa on his shoulders. In the event that Jiraiya looks into Itachi's eyes and is put under a genjutsu, either Fukusaku or Shima will immediately
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and break him out of the genjutsu.
I expect you may say that it is a different case with Tsukuyomi, since Itachi can manipulate time within this genjutsu (even if Ma breaks him out in one second, he still suffers 72 hours of torture.) This may or may not be true since the nature energy flowing into Jiraiya through Ma and Pa is constant, and possibly would disturb Jiraiya's chakra and break him out the genjutsu literally the instant he was caught in it. Regardless, I won't argue this point since I don't want to get into technicalities and it's just speculation.
Dealing with Amaterasu
Regardless of whether or not Jiraiya knows of his immunity to genjutsu, he's not taking any risks. To break eye contact between himself and Itachi and to negate Itachi's visual prowess, he will have Shima spit out her Senpō: Fūton Sunabokori.
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This technique creates a huge dust cloud which will surround Jiraiya. This acts as a smokescreen to block Itachi's vision and prevent Itachi from making eye contact with Jiraiya, but also serves as a counter to Amaterasu; Itachi needs to focus on his target to ignite them on fire
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, but with Jiraiya hidden in the dust cloud Itachi cannot focus his eye on him. The sharingan can distinguish chakra by its color, but won't be able to see Jiraiya inside the cloud of dust since the dust is infused with chakra itself - the same reason Kakashi's sharingan could not see through Zabuza's mist
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Jiraiya can also navigate perfectly fine in the dust cloud without his vision once he erects his sensing barrier.
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This huge barrier detects anything that crosses it or moves inside the barrier
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, so Jiraiya can track Itachi's movements if he enters the barrier, and will be able to move about within the dust cloud fine. And on top of that, Jiraiya has Fukusaku and Shima (two perfect Sages) perched on his shoulders, and with their sensing Jiraiya will have no problem moving around and navigating within the dust cloud (Jiraiya has operated fine within a cloud of smoke before.
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).
In addition to the dust cloud, Jiraiya can use kage bunshins to wear down Itachi and counter Amaterasu. By making several kage bunshins, Jiraiya can mix himself with clones so that Itachi doesn't know which to hit with Amaterasu, and he would not be able to nail all the clones with Amaterasu due to it being a chakra-taxing technique and Itachi having poor stamina. Clones are also
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so Itachi would have to use other methods to kill the clones, if he can.
Jiraiya also has a third counter to Amaterasu: needle jizo. Ma and Pa are perfect sages (and therefore sensors) so they can sense the chakra build-up in Itachi's eye and warn Jiraiya that Amaterasu is coming, just like Nagato did.
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Jiraiya then covers himself with
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to block amaterasu, and then shoot off the burned areas with
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The downside of this method is that Jiraiya doesn't know how Amaterasu works, so he would only be able to use it if he gained intel on Amaterasu mid-battle by seeing it in action (which is very possible, since Itachi will likely use Amaterasu on a boss summon or be tricked into using it on a kage bunshin.)
Dealing with Shadow Clones
Well first off Itachi can't make many shadow clones since they
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and he doesn't have the reserves to make many of them (he has never shown to be able to make more than one.) Jiraiya can detect Itachi's clones with his barrier, so clone feints aren't working. If Itachi tries to disperse the dust cloud by using an exploding clone, the clone will be taken down the instant it enters the dust cloud with Kebari Senbon.
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Since clones vanish in a puff of smoke the instant they draw blood, Kebari senbon could easily take down hordes of clones in an instant if needed - and Jiraiya stated it was his
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, so it should have no trouble taking down a clone - especially one that's blinded and can't dodge.
Dealing with Susano'o
Dealing with Susano'o/Totsuka defensively is not difficult for Jiraiya so long as he stays out of range and remains in his dust cloud for the most part. Yasaka Magatamas (along with shurikens) are pointless since Itachi would just be throwing them into the dust cloud at random (Jiraiya can detect them with his barrier and dodge anyway.)
Offense
Taking down Itachi should not prove to be too difficult for Jiraiya. I can think of four main methods to kill Itachi and one other that might work.
1. Toad Confrontation Chant
Probably the most obvious method, this sound-based
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would affect Itachi upon him hearing Ma and Pa's melody, and put him under genjutsu, forcing him to dispell Susano'o and leaving him vulnerable to Jiraiya sticking a sword in his back. Tayuya's Chains of Fantasia, another sound-based paralyzing genjutsu, already worked on Itachi and forced him to dispell Susano'o
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. It will be no different with Toad Confrontation Chant. This genjutsu requires a bit of time for Fukasaku and Shima to harmonize their melodies, but Jiraiya can stall for time with kage bunshins,
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, hiding in the dust cloud, etc.
2. Frog Call
After focusing Senjutsu chakra to their throats, both Fukasaku and Shima croak together in unison, releasing large, loud and immensely powerful sound waves that effectively annoy, distract and temporarily paralyse any afflicted targets completely. -Narutopedia
This technique has been used once in the manga and was shown to be very powerful, capable of completely paralyzing and immobilizing two boss summons
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. We've already seen the effect that powerful vibrations/soundwaves have on Susano'o with Kabuto's
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.
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Fukusaku and Shima simply need to direct the soundwaves towards Itachi, immobilize him, shatter the Susano'o, and Jiraiya can finish him off with a simple technique from a distance such as Kebari Senbon or Flame Bullet.
3. Food Cart Destroyer + Yomi Numa
This is a two-step attack. The first step involves Jiraiya summoning a boss toad, such as Gamabunta and taking advantage of the toad's mass to fall on top of the Susano'o
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. Now summoning a frog on top of Itachi won't be simple, since Jiraiya has to go above him. But what he can do is provide a distraction, either with a kage bunshin or with a smaller summon.
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In this scan, a frog leaps out from a smoke cloud, distracting the Pain and shifting his focus to the frog - while Jiraiya sneaks up behind him and launches an attack - which would have succeeded had the Pains not had a shared link of vision. Jiraiya can replicate this feat by having a toad or a kage bunshin leap out of the dust cloud, distracting Itachi, while the real Jiraiya shunshins above him, then summons the boss toad.
Itachi may or may not realize in time that a toad is crashing down on him, but let's assume he does. He can't control the toad with genjutsu, since the toads are not looking directly down on him when summoned as a Food Cart Destroyer (refer to the scans I posted.) Amaterasu would kill the summon, but it wouldn't stop its mass from crashing down on Itachi's susano'o. So Itachi will probably go with Totsuka'ing the summon. I'd like to point out that the Totsuka blade doesn't seal it's target instantly; it took Itachi several pages to seal away Orochimaru in his hydra form, giving him enough time to slip away in the form of a small snake
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. It took even longer for him to seal Nagato - giving him enough time to give Naruto a long farewell address
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. That being said, the boss summon will not be sealed instantly. It's at this point where Jiraiya uses the second step of his attack: Yomi Numa.
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. While Itachi is in the process of sealing the toad, the ground below him suddenly turns soft and liquifies, making him begin to sink. He is being distracted by the toad so he would be looking up and not expect an attack from below, and the weight of the summon is pressing him into the earth even more - and he cannot jump up due to there being a summon right above him. He will sink into the swamp and drown there.
4. Outlast
If Itachi shows any signs of sickness or stress, Jiraiya will realize that he is suffering from overusing his techniques, and will then launch an assault on Itachi. He already knows (from intel from Kakashi) that it's dangerous for Itachi to overuse his MS techniques. Jiraiya's assault could involve but is not limited to: constant Kebari senbon or katons to force Itachi to maintain a ribcage Susano'o, tricking Itachi into using genjutsu or Amaterasu on shadow clones, assaults from below with Yomi Numa, and so on. Itachi will be exhausted from lack of stamina and die of chakra depletion.
5. Goemon or Toad Oil Flame Bullet
A technique that may be hot enough to literally melt Susano'o. Susano'o has already been shown to experience stress and begin to corrode against Lava Release
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and it's been shown Susano'o is capable of being melted
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A huge fire technique on a grand scale may have the same effect
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. Even if it does not actually melt the Susano'o, it will still kill Itachi. The oil and fire will completely engulf Susano'o and the heat produced by the flames will make the temperature within Susano'o rise to be very hot, since there's no flow of air in or out of the Susano'o due to the flames and oil - the exact same effect as an oven. Itachi will overheat and die, literally trapped in his own Susano'o.
Conclusion: Jiraiya wins most likely high difficulty mainly due to his smokescreen, firepower, and superior stamina.
Introduction
Before this debate starts, I would like to inform all of you that Itachi was loyal to Konoha so the apparent weaknesses in his fights against Konoha shinobi should be taken with a grain of salt since he was not trying to kill any shinobi from Konoha and hence was "going easy" against them. For example, Itachi decided to put Kakashi out of commission via Tsukiyomi. This doesn't prove that Itachi was forced to use Tsukuyomi to beat Kakashi but that it would be the quickest way of finishing him off without killing him. There are many other misconceptions related to Itachi's prowess as a shinobi which are downplayed by many just because of his own intentions, restricting his capabilities.
Hand Seal Speed
Itachi throws shuriken at Kakashi, forcing him to erect a wall of water (
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). Kakashi even comments on how fast Itachi's jutsu execution speed is and while he does that, Itachi manages to not only create a clone but has it shunshin right behind Kakashi's clone which Kurenai fails to notice until after Itachi's clone gets behind Kakashi (
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). This goes to show that Itachi's hand seals are so fast that even the sharingan can't see them and that Itachi's clones can move very fast. Against Hebi Sasuke, while countering Sasuke's shuriken spam with his own (
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), Itachi still had the time to form a clone which Sasuke hadn't noticed until it came right in front of him (
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). This is another example of how fast Itachi can weave hand seals and have his clones escape the line of sight of his opponents even though they are elite 3 tomoe sharingan users. Even DSM Kabuto, whose speed, sensory abilities and reflexes were enhanced by senjutsu didn't notice that Itachi managed to create a Karasu bunshin (
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).
Itachi's usage of clones
Itachi can make clones explode and while the radius of the explosion is easy to dodge for anyone who knows (
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) that his clones can explode, without knowledge, they can be used to launch a surprise attack like what would have happened to Kurenai (
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). Kakashi had the sharingan which allowed him to tell that the clone would explode but Kurenai had no such advantage and Jiraiya is the same in that regard. If Jiraiya uses his
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, he is very likely to attack a clone which Itachi can create in a moment's notice (
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) thus dealing damage to Jiraiya, distracting him and blinding him, allowing the real Itachi to get behind Jiraiya and finish him off via amaterasu or
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by
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. Itachi could opt to use a crow clone instead (
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), which when sliced apart (
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), will disperse into a flock of crows (
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) which will converge together thus recreating the crow clone and catching Jiraiya offguard like it did to Hebi Sasuke. Itachi's Karasu bunshin did the same thing when up against DSM Kabuto. It got stabbed by Kabuto (
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), turned to crows (
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), then reformed again (
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) allowing Itachi to quickly cut off Kabuto's horn and retreat before Kabuto could react/counterattack. Jiraiya may have some low level sensory abilities granted by imperfect sage mode but it isn't enough to effectively counter Itachi's feints in a small moment's notice considering he got
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while still in sage mode and with Ma and Pa on his shoulders. Ma and Pa may be perfect sages with better sensory abilities than Jiraiya himself but even they may not be able to warn Jiraiya in time of various dangers that can spring up at a moment's notice. This is especially true considering they failed to do just that when Asura path sneaked up on Jiraiya. Furthermore, they tend to
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even in important fights against multiple opponents with the Rinnegan eyes.
Jiraiya's usage of clones
Jiraiya is also capable of bunshin feints but his utilization of clones isn't going to be as effective as Itachi's. This is primarily because Itachi's sharingan allows him to track hand seals so he will know when Jiraiya is using a shadow clone. Furthermore,
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and if Jiraiya decides to use clones with less chakra than his own body, Itachi will know which is the clone and which is the real one. If Jiraiya decides to split the chakra between himself and his clone(s) evenly, he'll end up wasting a large amount of chakra like Kakashi did (
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) against Pain which
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. Jiraiya may have a huge reservoir of chakra but splitting it in half will waste a large amount of chakra even if he has a lot because the amount of chakra he loses by halving it will be greater than someone with lower amount of chakra. He won't be able to use sage mode properly and potentially turn into a toad if he wastes chakra on KBs. By manga feats, in sage mode, Jiraiya only used one KB towards the end of the fight as a decoy to split up the 3 paths of pain so against one opponent (
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), it stands to reason Jiraiya won't rely on clone feints and that spamming clones is off limits.
Amaterasu
Jiraiya may have knowledge that Itachi can cast black flames but
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how exactly the black flames were produced. For that reason, Jiraiya won't be able to develop strategies to counter amaterasu since he won't know its unavoidability (
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) once prepped. Moreover, even while prepping amaterasu, Jiraiya doesn't know whether Itachi is prepping amaterasu or some other technique. I already explained why Itachi isn't getting fooled by clones, he'll know when Jiraiya forms the hand seals to create them and Itachi managed to create enough flames and managed to release amaterasu for more than a few seconds which allows him to take down multiple targets as well (
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)(
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)(
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). Itachi had produced enough amaterasu to cover half of the Uchiha hideout in a semi circle. Amaterasu does have backlash but even after using it twice in a row, first using it to burn Sasuke's katon (
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)(
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) and then against Sasuke himself (
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)(
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), he managed to react to Sasuke's Gouryouka no jutsu (
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)(
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) and leap away from multiple dragon heads despite the ground underneath him shattering and the fact that he had used a large amount of amaterasu just beforehand. Also important to take into account that he was
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while Sasuke was busy casting hand seals, Itachi isn't going to be coughing as per the conditions stipulated in the OP so amaterasu blacklash won't hamper Itachi much as long as he uses it carefully which he is more than capable of. Itachi need not use amaterasu right after he preps it, he can wait it out and release the flames at the right time. If you want proof of this, notice that Nagato senses that Itachi is about to use amaterasu (
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), however Shisui's eye frees Itachi from Kabuto's control allowing him to store those flames for later use (
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) and this surprises Nagato who thinks it is not amaterasu and Kabuto, who is surprised Itachi hasn't cast amaterasu yet. Later on, Itachi hastily releases the flames from his eyes (
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), catching everyone off guard (
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). What this entails is that even if Jiraiya can tell when Itachi is prepping amaterasu, he won't know exactly when it comes out.
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so this acts as a preventative measure to hold off Jiraiya while Itachi recovers from amaterasu backlash or while he preps the jutsu. Itachi's susanoo
Yata Mirror
Yata mirror is able to reflect attacks that try to breach susanoo's defence. I know Yata Mirror's hype is restricted but it has the feats of deflecting every single attack that has been thrown at it thus far. When Oro's hydra attacked, the snake got deflected away from the shield (
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). White Zetsu (
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) also comments on how all of Sasuke's attacks are getting deflected by the shield, not just outright tanking. Later on, Sasuke ends up getting repelled along with his sword after trying to attack Itachi (
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)(
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). My point is, when Jiraiya decides to attack susanoo, his attacks will end up getting deflected, potentially right back at him. Without knowledge on this, Jiraiya could get caught off guard and even with knowledge, he'll have to be extremely cautious in dealing with it. To conserve chakra, Itachi doesn't need to use armoured/V4 susanoo and can instead opt to use
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.
Susanoo's Offence
Itachi's susanoo clearly manhandles Jiraiya in CQC, I hope you agree considering the range his Totsuka blade covers and the speed at which Itachi swings the blade considering that he managed to cut off six snake heads from the eight branched serpent nigh instantly (
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). In that aforementioned bottom panel, we see that the snake heads fall to the ground at the exact same time so Totsuka must have completed its swing, which covered a good area considering the size of the serpent, nigh instantly. Itachi's V2 susanoo gives him the ability to fire Yasaka Magatamas (
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) which allow him to dominate in long ranged combat as well. Yasaka magatamas speed is portrayed to be as fast as FRS and TBB considering all three attacks were side by side which is only possible if they travelled the same distance and due to being cast at the same time, they travelled at the same speed. FRS is fast enough to cross a mountain range distance in a split second (
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). SM Jiraiya's speed and reactions may allow him to dodge such attacks but they will always put pressure on him whenever they are fired and he won't get the breathing space to go on the offensive. Any toad summons get sliced apart by Itachi's YMs and won't be able to dodge them because their foot speed isn't anything special, are huge targets and jumping in the air just makes them immobile and vulnerable to getting attacked (
Well I never liked intros much so I'll just get to the point. Before I start the debate, however I would like it to be noted that Jiraiya, especially in Sage Mode has far superior stamina and chakra reserves than Itachi, I would include scans but I feel this is fairly obvious. Itachi's poor stamina isn't something that I will be exploiting much in this debate, but it is worth mentioning that the longer the battle drags on for, the more the tide of the battle turns in favor of Jiraiya and some techniques Itachi should avoid overusing (for his own safety) include Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano'o, and kage bunshins. There is a limit to how many times he can use MS techniques (seeing how one Tsukuyomi usage put a strain on his body
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and Itachi needed to rest after using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu once each
It is quite obvious that Jiraiya has superior stamina to Itachi and that he'd win in a battle of attrition but Itachi has enough to finish off Jiraiya. Also bare in mind that as the battle goes on, Jiraiya's quantity of toads will decrease as they are killed off hence the amount of firepower he possesses will decrease. In the event either Ma or Pa get killed off, Jiraiya will no longer be able to sustain sage mode considering he was in sage mode but right after Ma left, he was no longer in sage mode (
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)(
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).
As for the Tsukiyomi backlash, despite its backlash and the fact Itachi was injured by the rigged shuriken, he still managed to react to Sasuke's katon, jump above the Uchiha hideout and counter with his own katon which ended up burning Sasuke (
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)(
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)(
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)(
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)(
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)(
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). Sure Itachi may have needed to rest after using Tsukiyomi against both
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and
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while having to use
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to burn the toad's mouth but when pushed to the edge, it doesn't show that Itachi couldn't have fought longer even afterwards, which he has shown to be able to do so in Shippuden in a worse condition. Furthermore, even though Itachi decided to retreat, Kisame questioned (
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) why a retreat was necessary for Itachi. Itachi replied (
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) there is no need to be urgent when it comes to Naruto and that he needed to rest his body. We now know that Itachi was a good guy all along and that he did wanted what was best for Konoha so these were just excuses to persuade Kisame to retreat. Itachi had already fulfilled his true objectives so he could run away (
but especially about Akatsuki. They have already discussed Itachi in the past.
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And they continued to discuss Akatsuki and exchange intel after the time skip
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Kakashi undoubtedly told Jiraiya of his encounters with Itachi and shared intel on his techniques. Therefore, Jiraiya should know more or less everything that Kakashi knew about Itachi. Kakashi, having fought him twice, knows much of Itachi's abilities including his shunshin, hand seal speed, shurikenjutsu, clone feints, katon, genjutsu, etc.
Jiraiya is also much more aware of Itachi's abilities in Part II than he was during his encounter with him in Part I. At that point in time all Jiraiya knew about Itachi was that he was a sharingan user who manipulated a woman to try and seduce him. In Part II Jiraiya knows of his Mangekyou Sharingan, his genjutsu (which put Kakashi and Sasuke in the hospital and required an expert medic like Tsunade to heal them), and even knows a little on Amaterasu, seeing as he sealed it in a scroll and most likely later analyzed it for study
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. So if you bring up the point about Jiraiya making eye contact with Itachi in their last encounter, Jiraiya is much more aware of his genjutsu now and will be sure to avoid looking in Itachi's eyes.
True, Jiraiya will know the basics of how Itachi fights but he doesn't have any practical experience in dealing with Itachi's usage of his abilities unlike Kakashi. Theoretical knowledge can only go so far, it can't compensate for lack of on the "job" experience. For the most part, I agree that Jiraiya is more knowledgeable on Itachi than he was in part one. Also bare in mind that Jiraiya is a famous legendary Sannin and the Sannin are known to fight with boss summons considering they did that against Hanzo in an infamous battle. Itachi should know Jiraiya utilises boss summons. Itachi may not have knowledge on the majority of Jiraiya's techniques but upon seeing them once, he can analyse it quickly (
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)(
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) and proceed to counter Jiraiya's abilities in haste like he did when he had no knowledge on CT (
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) yet he managed to decipher a counter which neither Naruto nor Bee could despite Naruto having experience with the jutsu and Killer Bee having the partnership of the Hachibi.
I'd like to point out that Jiraiya is immune to most of Itachi's genjutsu due to the fact that he starts this battle in Sage Mode with Ma and Pa on his shoulders. In the event that Jiraiya looks into Itachi's eyes and is put under a genjutsu, either Fukusaku or Shima will immediately
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and break him out of the genjutsu.
I expect you may say that it is a different case with Tsukuyomi, since Itachi can manipulate time within this genjutsu (even if Ma breaks him out in one second, he still suffers 72 hours of torture.) This may or may not be true since the nature energy flowing into Jiraiya through Ma and Pa is constant, and possibly would disturb Jiraiya's chakra and break him out the genjutsu literally the instant he was caught in it. Regardless, I won't argue this point since I don't want to get into technicalities and it's just speculation.
I disagree with your second paragraph and I'll agree that I don't want to discuss technicalities either so we'll leave it at that. Do remember though that DSM Kabuto decided to fight the Uchiha bros by covering his eyes so intaking senjutsu continuously isn't going to constantly break genjutsu or else Kabuto wouldn't have taken such drastic measures (
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).
Even still, genjutsu can turn boss summons against Jiraiya. Ma and Pa are different because they have better chakra control and intelligence but they too can be momentarily paralysed. While it is true Jiraiya has extra sets of eyes through Ma and Pa, Itachi too has extra sets of eyes to cast genjutsu on. Momentaririly handicapping either Ma and Pa would allow Itachi to disrupt Jiraiya's sage mode transformation considering he wasn't able to stay in sage mode after Ma left him (
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). These disturbances can give Itachi openings and also cause Jiraiya, Ma and Pa to be cautious and less aggressive. Looking below Itachi's eyes makes Jiraiya susceptible to getting burnt by amaterasu or slaughtered by susanoo since the
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. Looking above Itachi's face is an awkward way of fighting and having to adjust how you look at an opponent may cause Jiraiya to fight less effectively as they can leave Jiraiya susceptible to shuriken from Itachi himself. Attacks coming from inside susanoo can faze out of susanoo which makes this possible (
Regardless of whether or not Jiraiya knows of his immunity to genjutsu, he's not taking any risks. To break eye contact between himself and Itachi and to negate Itachi's visual prowess, he will have Shima spit out her Senpō: Fūton Sunabokori.
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This technique creates a huge dust cloud which will surround Jiraiya. This acts as a smokescreen to block Itachi's vision and prevent Itachi from making eye contact with Jiraiya, but also serves as a counter to Amaterasu; Itachi needs to focus on his target to ignite them on fire
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, but with Jiraiya hidden in the dust cloud Itachi cannot focus his eye on him. The sharingan can distinguish chakra by its color, but won't be able to see Jiraiya inside the cloud of dust since the dust is infused with chakra itself - the same reason Kakashi's sharingan could not see through Zabuza's mist
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Jiraiya can also navigate perfectly fine in the dust cloud without his vision once he erects his sensing barrier.
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This huge barrier detects anything that crosses it or moves inside the barrier
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, so Jiraiya can track Itachi's movements if he enters the barrier, and will be able to move about within the dust cloud fine. And on top of that, Jiraiya has Fukusaku and Shima (two perfect Sages) perched on his shoulders, and with their sensing Jiraiya will have no problem moving around and navigating within the dust cloud (Jiraiya has operated fine within a cloud of smoke before.
The huge dust cloud is in fact a fuuton which is proven by its name Senpō: Fūton Sunabokori. It consists of air holding up particles of dust suspended in midair. Katon should burn right through it, consuming the air, enhancing Itachi's katon and causing the obstructing dust to fall to the ground. Jiraiya, who will be hiding inside it will either have to escape the dust cloud before it gets enveloped in flames or he will end up getting rid of the katon with another katon or simply extinguish Itachi's with a Chou Oodama Rasengan. In either case, Jiraiya's cover is ruined leaving him susceptible to amaterasu, Totsuka or YMs.
In addition to the dust cloud, Jiraiya can use kage bunshins to wear down Itachi and counter Amaterasu. By making several kage bunshins, Jiraiya can mix himself with clones so that Itachi doesn't know which to hit with Amaterasu, and he would not be able to nail all the clones with Amaterasu due to it being a chakra-taxing technique and Itachi having poor stamina. Clones are also
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so Itachi would have to use other methods to kill the clones, if he can.
Despite amaterasu being a chakra taxing technique, Itachi's shown to be proficient when it comes to chakra control and is able to produce a large number of flames in one sweep (
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)(
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). Amaterasu can be used as a continuous attack that the user can use to target multiple targets considering Itachi manage to unintentionally cause a large number of trees to be lit on fire (
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). Even if Jiraiya creates a dozen clones, Itachi will take them out easily. Also those clones aren't outrunning amaterasu, neither is Jiraiya because clones are slower in both speed and reactions. Bare in mind Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke, but aim at his wings to force him to shed his body to wear him out in order to force Orochimaru out and get rid of Oro and his curse (
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). Since Itachi wanted to spare Sasuke's body, he had to be extra careful when using his amaterasu and Sasuke had prior knowledge to how amaterasu works hence why he started running before the flames were released. Bare in mind Itachi's eyesight was very weak in that battle unlike the thread stipulations. Ay needed his most powerful shunshin to evade these flames (
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), Jiraiya and his clones come no where near this level of speed.
Jiraiya also has a third counter to Amaterasu: needle jizo. Ma and Pa are perfect sages (and therefore sensors) so they can sense the chakra build-up in Itachi's eye and warn Jiraiya that Amaterasu is coming, just like Nagato did.
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Jiraiya then covers himself with
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to block amaterasu, and then shoot off the burned areas with
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The downside of this method is that Jiraiya doesn't know how Amaterasu works, so he would only be able to use it if he gained intel on Amaterasu mid-battle by seeing it in action (which is very possible, since Itachi will likely use Amaterasu on a boss summon or be tricked into using it on a kage bunshin.)
Like you said, Jiraiya can only use it if he gains intel on amaterasu. Furthermore, Jiraiya can't move if he uses needle jizo which leaves him open to a Totsuka blitz (
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). Also like the scan
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shows, needle Jizo doesn't protect the face which makes sense or else Jiraiya won't be able to breathe and neither will the Elder toads on his shoulders. Once Jiraiya decides to use Kebari senbon, he has to be sure Itachi's amaterasu charge has ran out because his body is
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so he is no longer protected. Also Itachi managed to burn the wall of the toad mouth trap and escape before Jiraiya caught up so amaterasu may very well just burn through his hair which is less thick than the walls of the toad mouth trap.
Well first off Itachi can't make many shadow clones since they
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and he doesn't have the reserves to make many of them (he has never shown to be able to make more than one.) Jiraiya can detect Itachi's clones with his barrier, so clone feints aren't working. If Itachi tries to disperse the dust cloud by using an exploding clone, the clone will be taken down the instant it enters the dust cloud with Kebari Senbon.
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Since clones vanish in a puff of smoke the instant they draw blood, Kebari senbon could easily take down hordes of clones in an instant if needed - and Jiraiya stated it was his
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, so it should have no trouble taking down a clone - especially one that's blinded and can't dodge.
Dealing with Susano'o/Totsuka defensively is not difficult for Jiraiya so long as he stays out of range and remains in his dust cloud for the most part. Yasaka Magatamas (along with shurikens) are pointless since Itachi would just be throwing them into the dust cloud at random (Jiraiya can detect them with his barrier and dodge anyway.)
I've already countered the dust cloud. I'll repost it here.
The huge dust cloud is in fact a fuuton which is proven by its name Senpō: Fūton Sunabokori. It consists of air holding up particles of dust suspended in midair. Katon should burn right through it, consuming the air, enhancing Itachi's katon and causing the obstructing dust to fall to the ground. Jiraiya, who will be hiding inside it will either have to escape the dust cloud before it gets enveloped in flames or he will end up getting rid of the katon with another katon or simply extinguish Itachi's with a Chou Oodama Rasengan. In either case, Jiraiya's cover is ruined leaving him susceptible to amaterasu, Totsuka or YMs.
Taking down Itachi should not prove to be too difficult for Jiraiya. I can think of four main methods to kill Itachi and one other that might work.
1. Toad Confrontation Chant
Probably the most obvious method, this sound-based
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would affect Itachi upon him hearing Ma and Pa's melody, and put him under genjutsu, forcing him to dispell Susano'o and leaving him vulnerable to Jiraiya sticking a sword in his back. Tayuya's Chains of Fantasia, another sound-based paralyzing genjutsu, already worked on Itachi and forced him to dispell Susano'o
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. It will be no different with Toad Confrontation Chant. This genjutsu requires a bit of time for Fukasaku and Shima to harmonize their melodies, but Jiraiya can stall for time with kage bunshins,
Due to Ma and Pa having to use the genjutsu, Jiraiya can't get any type of advice, extra set of eyes/sensory abilities or fire support from the two elder toads. One of the reasons why SM Jiraiya is extremely powerful is the abilities of Ma and Pa used in conjunction with Jiraiya. During the time genjutsu is being prepped, Jiraiya will be at a disadvantage. Jiraiya isn't hiding anywhere because the sound gives away his position. Diversions won't work because Itachi can simply outrun them and use crow clones to distract them. His summons couldn't land a hit on Deva path (
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). A mobile fighter like Itachi with 3 tomoe sharingan isn't getting hit by bulky toads.
After focusing Senjutsu chakra to their throats, both Fukasaku and Shima croak together in unison, releasing large, loud and immensely powerful sound waves that effectively annoy, distract and temporarily paralyse any afflicted targets completely. -Narutopedia
This technique has been used once in the manga and was shown to be very powerful, capable of completely paralyzing and immobilizing two boss summons
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. We've already seen the effect that powerful vibrations/soundwaves have on Susano'o with Kabuto's
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.
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Fukusaku and Shima simply need to direct the soundwaves towards Itachi, immobilize him, shatter the Susano'o, and Jiraiya can finish him off with a simple technique from a distance such as Kebari Senbon or Flame Bullet.
It should be obvious that the white rage's effects are much more severe than Frog call's. For one, white rage even releases blinding light while frog call doesn't. While temporary paralysis means Itachi can't move for a few seconds, susanoo can still be used because the user can be stationary, all they have to do is focus. White rage was so strong that it became even impossible to focus/maintain susanoo but frog call hasn't showed that it causes one's mental concentration to become so weak that it becomes impossible to maintain susanoo. Also Itachi still managed to use ribcage susanoo even through all that (
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The main problem with frog call is that Ma and Pa need to come close to the target to use. It seems to have a range of about the same as the
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. What I mean is that getting close enough to use frog call leaves Jiraiya susceptible to getting killed via Totsuka or Yasaka magatamas (
This is a two-step attack. The first step involves Jiraiya summoning a boss toad, such as Gamabunta and taking advantage of the toad's mass to fall on top of the Susano'o
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. Now summoning a frog on top of Itachi won't be simple, since Jiraiya has to go above him. But what he can do is provide a distraction, either with a kage bunshin or with a smaller summon.
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In this scan, a frog leaps out from a smoke cloud, distracting the Pain and shifting his focus to the frog - while Jiraiya sneaks up behind him and launches an attack - which would have succeeded had the Pains not had a shared link of vision. Jiraiya can replicate this feat by having a toad or a kage bunshin leap out of the dust cloud, distracting Itachi, while the real Jiraiya shunshins above him, then summons the boss toad.
Itachi may or may not realize in time that a toad is crashing down on him, but let's assume he does. He can't control the toad with genjutsu, since the toads are not looking directly down on him when summoned as a Food Cart Destroyer (refer to the scans I posted.) Amaterasu would kill the summon, but it wouldn't stop its mass from crashing down on Itachi's susano'o. So Itachi will probably go with Totsuka'ing the summon. I'd like to point out that the Totsuka blade doesn't seal it's target instantly; it took Itachi several pages to seal away Orochimaru in his hydra form, giving him enough time to slip away in the form of a small snake
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. It took even longer for him to seal Nagato - giving him enough time to give Naruto a long farewell address
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. That being said, the boss summon will not be sealed instantly. It's at this point where Jiraiya uses the second step of his attack: Yomi Numa.
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. While Itachi is in the process of sealing the toad, the ground below him suddenly turns soft and liquifies, making him begin to sink. He is being distracted by the toad so he would be looking up and not expect an attack from below, and the weight of the summon is pressing him into the earth even more - and he cannot jump up due to there being a summon right above him. He will sink into the swamp and drown there.
Your distraction point is good but the context of the scan you posted is important to understand. Jiraiya seemed to have transformed into a frog to stealthily escape the smoke without raising any alarm which allowed him to get behind the path. Jiraiya will need to stay in a concealed area to confuse Itachi like this or else it is easily apparent that Jiraiya transformed. Even then, a frog is an enemy of Itachi who is capable of multitasking with up to
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which can be used for offence or defence so these diversions will be hard to pull off. Even if Jiraiya manages to get behind Itachi, Itachi's shown keen senses whereas Jiraiya isn't a very quiet fighter so Itachi will notice Jiraiya's position even if he manages to escape Itachi's line of sight. Speaking of Itachi's natural instincts, Kabuto's words (
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) inform us that his perceptive skills are on a very high level, making him think Itachi is a chakra sensor even though he is not. Kabuto praising Itachi's perceptive ability means a lot because Kabuto himself benefited from enhanced perceptive abilities granted through senjutsu.
Even if Jiraiya pulls off food cart destroyer, what is stopping Itachi from slicing the toad in half instead of sealing it away? Yomi Numa will take sometime to sink Itachi because his chakra control will allow him to resist the swamp for a while, allowing him to use amaterasu
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to evaporate the mud, condensing it into solid ground.
If Jiraiya decides to use Yomi Numa as a standalone technique outside of a combination to distract Itachi, Jiraiya won't be able to use it against Itachi considering it requires a couple of hand seals and then the user has to place their two hands on the ground to cast the technique. Sasuke's been shown to stop Itachi from forming hand seals (
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) and actually succeeded. Granted Itachi was suffering Tsukiyomi backlash but Itachi can replicate this feat against Jiraiya with YMs because it is as fast as Killer Bee's TBB and Naruto's FRS. than his brother and also better at Shuriken jutsu.
Itachi's ability to defend himself requires Jiraiya some complex ways of getting through to Itachi considering his susanoo has four arms, a large extendable sword and multiple projectiles whereas all Itachi needs is one hit on Jiraiya without having to use complex maneuvers. Clearly Itachi has better chances at victory than Jiraiya.
If Itachi shows any signs of sickness or stress, Jiraiya will realize that he is suffering from overusing his techniques, and will then launch an assault on Itachi. He already knows (from intel from Kakashi) that it's dangerous for Itachi to overuse his MS techniques. Jiraiya's assault could involve but is not limited to: constant Kebari senbon or katons to force Itachi to maintain a ribcage Susano'o, tricking Itachi into using genjutsu or Amaterasu on shadow clones, assaults from below with Yomi Numa, and so on. Itachi will be exhausted from lack of stamina and die of chakra depletion.
Lol, ribcage susanoo allows Itachi to tank Kebari senbons and katons easily. Itachi isn't a sitting duck waiting to die because he can still
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. The arm of a ribcage susanoo allows Itachi to smash any shadow clones within 3 metres and if need be, Itachi can use a higher level of susanoo for greater range and durability. Jiraiya can also run out of chakra to maintain sage mode if he spams too many shadow clones considering the best he's shown is only one shadow clone in his fight against Pain. Regular genjutsu doesn't take a lot out of Itachi's chakra reserves and I highly doubt Itachi will use Tsukuyomi on Jiraiya unless Itachi is sure that he is facing the real Jiraiya. He can be sure it is the real Jiraiya if Jiraiya has yet to weave signs to form shadow clones which sharingan can track easily.
Also you're underrating Itachi's chakra reserves. Itachi was dying of disease when he fought Hebi Sasuke yet ended up outlasting him, then taking down Orochimaru and still had a bit of chakra left before he died. Before the battle even started,
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in place to find Sasuke and deliver news to him. At around the same time, Itachi had another
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. In other words, Itachi didn't even start the battle with full chakra. Itachi wanted to test Sasuke's capabilities without going all out against him so he ended up in a useless genjutsu bout which took quite a bit of chakra considering Itachi used Tsukiyomi and had it broken in that same fight. Amaterasu was used twice, once to counter Sasuke's fireball, then a whole sweep of the terrain culminating with Sasuke being lit up. Then Itachi ended up extinguishing those flames on Sasuke's body, which itself is chakra taxing. Even then he went on to use susanoo to guard himself from Kirin and had that susanoo destroyed but Itachi still had the chakra to manifest another susanoo, fight against the Hydra, seal it away and then corner Sasuke with that same susanoo. Right before he died, he
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as a trap
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. He is fighting to kill Jiraiya so he won't waste chakra on the first two crow clones he used to talk to Naruto and Sasuke prior to the fight. Itachi isn't going to test Sasuke's capabilities to boost his confidence nor is Itachi going to waste chakra in communicating Madara's past to Jiraiya within genjutsu so he isn't
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unless he can take Jiraiya out for the count. Also Itachi will let Jiraiya burn and not extinguish those flames. It's clear to me Itachi will have sufficient chakra to clear this fight.
A technique that may be hot enough to literally melt Susano'o. Susano'o has already been shown to experience stress and begin to corrode against Lava Release
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and it's been shown Susano'o is capable of being melted
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A huge fire technique on a grand scale may have the same effect
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. Even if it does not actually melt the Susano'o, it will still kill Itachi. The oil and fire will completely engulf Susano'o and the heat produced by the flames will make the temperature within Susano'o rise to be very hot, since there's no flow of air in or out of the Susano'o due to the flames and oil - the exact same effect as an oven. Itachi will overheat and die, literally trapped in his own Susano'o.
Conclusion: Jiraiya wins most likely high difficulty mainly due to his smokescreen, firepower, and superior stamina.
yet he never felt the heat produced by the flames. Katon users regularly spit katon without their bodies getting heat up in an adverse way. Itachi was using katon continuously for quite some time (
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) yet he didn't receive any indirect burns. Mei's acid mist was negatively harming the weakest version of susanoo while Sasuke was running low and couldn't repair yet he managed to
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that seeped in. Itachi himself has shown to be durable enough to
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was hit by fire despite his previous
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. Not to mention as a I proved in the Yata Mirror section of my post, fire balls and goemon will get reflected away and susanoo will take no damage. Jiraiya may as well get harmed by his own attacks if he isn't careful about the Yata Mirror. Mei's lava didn't completely melt susanoo and was
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and Madara didn't burn out from the heat which supports my point.
