[Discussion] Awakened logia theory

[Hashirama Senjuu]

If a paramecias fruit awakened allows them too extend their abilities to non living things, and a wakened zoans increase their size and physical attributes, then perhaps an awakened logia allows them to control their element without it having to come from them.

Ex: Akainu could make the lava from beneath burst up, or Enel could make it rain lightning, akoiji making it hail, or Sabo Controlling the heat in the air. Thoughts?

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Crocodile is an awakened logia and his right hand awakened powers absorbs fluids/drought while his df powers is to produce and manipulate sand.

So Sabo's fire awakening could be different forms of fire such as lightning/plasma energy or controlling heat temperatures as you said.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Crocodile is an awakened logia and his right hand awakened powers absorbs fluids/drought while his df powers is to produce and manipulate sand.

So Sabo's fire awakening could be different forms of fire such as lightning/plasma energy or controlling heat temperatures as you said.

Lmao Jesus Christ, this guy

OT: Could be. We've seen Logias manipulate outside sources of their element though. Crocodile could manipulate the desert, Ace could control the fire made from cannonball explosions, Enel could tap into electromagnetic frequencies in the air. Maybe Oda will retroactively make these Awakenings, but we know too little about it to makr proper guesses rn imo

 

[ArabianLuffy]

It's amazing that Punk-Hazard, the half lava, half ice is still active as a whole island. Thanks to Kuzan and Sakazuki have gone all out against each other. Doffy's awakened Ito couldn't do the same to Dressrosa. Zoan? Who cares about them?

So yeah, I think awakened logias leave a mark that never cease.

 

[Caliburn]

It has already been mentioned, but several logia users have already done what you just said and as I explained below if you're going to start assuming that all these characters are already awakened, well what kind of value does that ability even still have? In a certain way you are then weakening characters instead strengthening them as qualities you originally considered to be inherent to the powers of the DF, you now suddenly divide.

To be honest I find this whole "awakened" business too hyped with people drawing lines that don't really need to be there. In particular for logia users where the difference between the abilities of a regular and an awakened user are rather a blur.

Crocodile is an awakened logia and his right hand awakened powers absorbs fluids/drought while his df powers is to produce and manipulate sand.

So Sabo's fire awakening could be different forms of fire such as lightning/plasma energy or controlling heat temperatures as you said.

Ne he isn't or in the least that has never been proven nor even implied. That Crocodile might have an awakened Devil Fruit is pure speculation at this point. There are as some indications that are enough to consider the possibility, however what you are doing is posing a pure theoretical hypothesis as factual truth.

The problem with the introduction of awakened devil fruits is that suddenly everyone started seeing them everywhere, but that kinda makes the entire concept rather obsolete. I mean Luffy beat Crocodile all the way back in Alabasta and this was before he knew Haki or any of his gears. If you assume he was even an awakened Logia at that point in time, well it pretty much devalues the ability.

 

[HashiraMadara]

Lmao Jesus Christ, this guy

OT: Could be. We've seen Logias manipulate outside sources of their element though. Crocodile could manipulate the desert, Ace could control the fire made from cannonball explosions, Enel could tap into electromagnetic frequencies in the air. Maybe Oda will retroactively make these Awakenings, but we know too little about it to makr proper guesses rn imo

Crocodile didn't manipulate a desert, he created a wind vortex(mini sand storm in his hand) to assist the chain reaction. He even explicitly explained it to Luffy how this small technique in his hand if used correctly and in cohesion with the wind can create hazardous weather

 

[Punk Hazard]

Crocodile didn't manipulate a desert, he created a wind vortex(mini sand storm in his hand) to assist the chain reaction. He even explicitly explained it to Luffy how this small technique in his hand if used correctly and in cohesion with the wind can create hazardous weather

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Talking about this, hoss.

 

[HashiraMadara]

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Talking about this, hoss.

> hits the ground with a force enough and the place split while sand spins falling into a hole like any sand pit would do
> he controls the desert

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[Punk Hazard]

> hits the ground with a force enough and the place split while sand spins falling into a hole like any sand pit would do
> he controls the desert

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*****, what? Crocodile split the desert before this, and the sand wasn't falling into the crevice. The ground was level until Crocodile slammed his hands onto the ground, at which point he caused the ground around Luffy to collapse into a crater.

He manipulated the desert separate from his own body by creating the crater and forcing the sand to start dragging inwards like a whirlpool.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

It has already been mentioned, but several logia users have already done what you just said and as I explained below if you're going to start assuming that all these characters are already awakened, well what kind of value does that ability even still have? In a certain way you are then weakening characters instead strengthening them as qualities you originally considered to be inherent to the powers of the DF, you now suddenly divide.

To be honest I find this whole "awakened" business too hyped with people drawing lines that don't really need to be there. In particular for logia users where the difference between the abilities of a regular and an awakened user are rather a blur.



Ne he isn't or in the least that has never been proven nor even implied. That Crocodile might have an awakened Devil Fruit is pure speculation at this point. There are as some indications that are enough to consider the possibility, however what you are doing is posing a pure theoretical hypothesis as factual truth.

The problem with the introduction of awakened devil fruits is that suddenly everyone started seeing them everywhere, but that kinda makes the entire concept rather absolute. I mean Luffy beat Crocodile all the way back in Alabasta and this was before he knew Haki or any of his gears. If you assume he was even an awakened Logia at that point in time, well it pretty much devalues the ability.

I thought it was implied when Crocodile said in alabasta and Impel down that he had complete mastery over his devil fruit. Just because luffy "beat" crocodile in alabasta doesn't mean that awakening was not possible then, I mean luffy did beat an awakening in the impel down and so did jinbei and crocodile.

The reason why some people including myself came to the conclusion that he's an awakening is because the sand fruits powers is to manipulate sand and produce sand. Kind of like how mera fruit produce fire and ice fruit produces ice but when your sand fruit is able to absorb moister and decay inanimate objects, how does that fall under the basic category of manipulating sand?

 

[Caliburn]

I thought it was implied when Crocodile said in alabasta and Impel down that he had complete mastery over his devil fruit. Just because luffy "beat" crocodile in alabasta doesn't mean that awakening was not possible then, I mean luffy did beat an awakening in the impel down and so did jinbei and crocodile.

The reason why some people including myself came to the conclusion that he's an awakening is because the sand fruits powers is to manipulate sand and produce sand. Kind of like how mera fruit produce fire and ice fruit produces ice but when your sand fruit is able to absorb moister and decay inanimate objects, how does that fall under the basic category of manipulating sand?

The Alabasta arc is from over a decade ago. The first time awakened DF were mentioned, was during the ID arc and even then no one actually gave it much thought and it's very well possible Oda himself hadn't completely envisioned the concept. It's only when DD used it, it became a topic of discussion. So it's quite a stretch to say that it was implied all those years ago that Crocodile had an awakened DF, in particular because absolutely no one saw it that way until DD. The two are simply too far apart in time.

However even if you assume it was somehow implied, that doesn't make it a proven fact and as such you can't present it that way. Frankly even if Oda at one point confirms that Crocodile is awakened, it's very well possible he was just being pragmatic and turned him into an awakened one rather than already having been one.

And DF users using their DF in an unconventional way isn't unusual. There are numerous examples of that and the fact that until DD no one thought there was something weird about Crocodile's powers, says it all.

The line between a regular DF and an awakened one is currently a blur and as I said before if you divide the powers of a DF while originally you saw them as being normal to the DF, well then it devalues the concept of awakening as what purpose does it have if Luffy has been encountering numerous of them throughout his journey? As it stands now you can shift that line between a regular and an awakened DF as much as you wish because of that blurriness. For example Aokiji, his ability is ice, but that's something different than freezing stuff. Still he froze two tsunami's. Is that now normal or awakened? Same thing with the sand as what is supposed to be the basic category of manipulating sand?

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

The Alabasta arc is from over a decade ago. The first time awakened DF were mentioned, was during the ID arc and even then no one actually gave it much thought and it's very well possible Oda himself hadn't completely envisioned the concept. It's only when DD used it, it became a topic of discussion. So it's quite a stretch to say that it was implied all those years ago that Crocodile had an awakened DF, in particular because absolutely no one saw it that way until DD. The two are simply too far apart in time.

However even if you assume it was somehow implied, that doesn't make it a proven fact and as such you can't present it that way. Frankly even if Oda at one point confirms that Crocodile is awakened, it's very well possible he was just being pragmatic and turned him into an awakened one rather than already having been one.

And DF users using their DF in an unconventional way isn't unusual. There are numerous examples of that and the fact that until DD no one thought there was something weird about Crocodile's powers, says it all.

The line between a regular DF and an awakened one is currently a blur and as I said before if you divide the powers of a DF while originally you saw them as being normal to the DF, well then it devalues the concept of awakening as what purpose does it have if Luffy has been encountering numerous of them throughout his journey? As it stands now you can shift that line between a regular and an awakened DF as much as you wish because of that blurriness. For example Aokiji, his ability is ice, but that's something different than freezing stuff. Still he froze two tsunami's. Is that now normal or awakened? Same thing with the sand as what is supposed to be the basic category of manipulating sand?

The first time we actually seen the use of a awakening devil fruit was the impel down which was an arc way before dressrosa. The reason why I'm giving Crocodile the benefit of the doubt is because he was the first person before doflamingo to mention or even tell who had the power of an awakened devil fruit. And usually when you have the knowledge/mechanics to a certain power, that usually suggest that you have that kind of power too.

And like a few people, some actually thought Crocodile was a awakening after he informed the group that the impel guards are awakened zoans along with how a zoan type awakening effected them differently than other devil fruits. It just became more vocal after doflamingo (a colleague/former warlord) confimred everything he said on the paramythia's df awakening perspective. Just like how zoans awakening are different, the same would be for paramythia and logias.

To be honest no logia has done anything different in nature(purpose). The nature of the ice fruit is to freeze, so freezing a tsunami, a lake, or a pound is not considered different. But for sand however it's not to decay objects or to absorb fluids from people's body. Sand does not do that when you hold it or put it on desk. But when you put a glass of water in a freezer or some place that is constantly producing ice, you will end up freezing that glass of water into ice. I'm not trying to make things up as I go along, I'm just trying to pick up on hidden concepts in the older mangas. Haki would be another good example because we've seen it in like the first chaper/episode but at the time we still didn't know what it's called they just had another name for it. Like great spirit and mantra. Now that the series carried over some more we got a better understanding for it and what advantages it gives you.
Maybe just maybe Crocodile saying his odd-like ability that he called "a special ability" is just another wording for "awakened logia" in the meantime Oda finalizes everything like he did for haki, right?

 

[LBeezy]

The Alabasta arc is from over a decade ago. The first time awakened DF were mentioned, was during the ID arc and even then no one actually gave it much thought and it's very well possible Oda himself hadn't completely envisioned the concept. It's only when DD used it, it became a topic of discussion. So it's quite a stretch to say that it was implied all those years ago that Crocodile had an awakened DF, in particular because absolutely no one saw it that way until DD. The two are simply too far apart in time.

However even if you assume it was somehow implied, that doesn't make it a proven fact and as such you can't present it that way. Frankly even if Oda at one point confirms that Crocodile is awakened, it's very well possible he was just being pragmatic and turned him into an awakened one rather than already having been one.

And DF users using their DF in an unconventional way isn't unusual. There are numerous examples of that and the fact that until DD no one thought there was something weird about Crocodile's powers, says it all.

The line between a regular DF and an awakened one is currently a blur and as I said before if you divide the powers of a DF while originally you saw them as being normal to the DF, well then it devalues the concept of awakening as what purpose does it have if Luffy has been encountering numerous of them throughout his journey? As it stands now you can shift that line between a regular and an awakened DF as much as you wish because of that blurriness. For example Aokiji, his ability is ice, but that's something different than freezing stuff. Still he froze two tsunami's. Is that now normal or awakened? Same thing with the sand as what is supposed to be the basic category of manipulating sand?

Spoiler

Haki :bdpf:

 

[Xylon]

I thought it was implied when Crocodile said in alabasta and Impel down that he had complete mastery over his devil fruit. Just because luffy "beat" crocodile in alabasta doesn't mean that awakening was not possible then, I mean luffy did beat an awakening in the impel down and so did jinbei and crocodile.

The reason why some people including myself came to the conclusion that he's an awakening is because the sand fruits powers is to manipulate sand and produce sand. Kind of like how mera fruit produce fire and ice fruit produces ice but when your sand fruit is able to absorb moister and decay inanimate objects, how does that fall under the basic category of manipulating sand?

Because using devil fruit in unique ways has been shown through out the series. The rationale was Sand= Desertification= soil losing moisture if you dumb it extremely. But that wasn't even Caliburn's point. One piece is a shounen, and the plot and all elements have not been decided since the beginning or at least an early point in the series. Which means, that any features which may seem characteristic to an awakened logia are invalid because Oda never thought about it in this detail that far ahead in time (when he was writing alabasta arc). Even if in a future point Oda decided to relate this characteristic to awakened logia. It wouldn't be in literary terms, 'foreshadowing' (google it). Ergo this is not a point that can logically be raised to prove a theory.

I've no idea whats going on in One piece, i stopped watching a while back so i may be missing context. But you only need some critical thinking to understand what he meant.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Because using devil fruit in unique ways has been shown through out the series. The rationale was Sand= Desertification= soil losing moisture if you dumb it extremely. But that wasn't even Caliburn's point. One piece is a shounen, and the plot and all elements have not been decided since the beginning or at least an early point in the series. Which means, that any features which may seem characteristic to an awakened logia are invalid because Oda never thought about it in this detail that far ahead in time (when he was writing alabasta arc). Even if in a future point Oda decided to relate this characteristic to awakened logia. It wouldn't be in literary terms, 'foreshadowing' (google it). Ergo this is not a point that can logically be raised to prove a theory.

I've no idea whats going on in One piece, i stopped watching a while back so i may be missing context. But you only need some critical thinking to understand what he meant.

Maybe "dumbing" it down for you is just confusing you even more than you already know because this bold part here makes absolutely not sense whatsoever.
There is no sand=desertification= soil lost analogy here. In nature when fire touches an object it burns, when ice touches an object it freezes over, but when sand touches an object it does not decay. If I hold sand on my hand or place sand on an object over a certain amount of time, I will not rot out and neither will that object decay.

And no logia has been shown in a "unique way" in the series except for what crocodile has shown although Enel using heat to mold gold is a close second. But regardless of what it is, please do not try to rehash what Caliburn has already stated. It is completely redundant and by my second response to him it's already clear that I already know what he was implying on his second post.

However thank you for admitting that you have no idea on what's recently has been going on in the series (at least you have honesty) but it's really unnecessary for you to be vocal about Caliburn's side without full taking into account on everything that's been posted in this page. It would mean I have to repeat everything I already covered to somebody else.

 

[LBeezy]

Because using devil fruit in unique ways has been shown through out the series. The rationale was Sand= Desertification= soil losing moisture if you dumb it extremely. But that wasn't even Caliburn's point. One piece is a shounen, and the plot and all elements have not been decided since the beginning or at least an early point in the series. Which means, that any features which may seem characteristic to an awakened logia are invalid because Oda never thought about it in this detail that far ahead in time (when he was writing alabasta arc). Even if in a future point Oda decided to relate this characteristic to awakened logia. It wouldn't be in literary terms, 'foreshadowing' (google it). Ergo this is not a point that can logically be raised to prove a theory.

I've no idea whats going on in One piece, i stopped watching a while back so i may be missing context. But you only need some critical thinking to understand what he meant.

Oda didn't have Haki figured out either during the beginning of the manga.. yet if he wants to he can say that characters were using Haki in any given situation.

He's the mangaka, and he can do what he wants.. although it won't be an example of "foreshadowing", he can very easily say that Crocodile had awakened his DF back then and it would actually make sense.

He can say that Enel had awakened his DF..

Hell he can even say that Buggy awakened his DF..


The bottom line is that we don't know much about DF's being awakened in the first place. So it leaves alot up to speculation.. but the fact still stands that Oda has complete control over his story and even though it wouldn't be foreshadowing per say, he can still end up stating that certain characters had awakened their DF long before the term "awakened" was a known thing. Doflamingo might know the proper term, sure, but that doesn't mean that every other character who has awakened their DF needs to know what it's called.

We still need Oda to give us more details on what DF awakening is though, at the end of the day..



P.S. I see you say that you stopped watching One Piece.. how come? (If you don't mind me asking)

I would highly recommend that you at least read the manga because honestly the story just keeps getting better and better.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Oda didn't have Haki figured out either during the beginning of the manga.. yet if he wants to he can say that characters were using Haki in any given situation.

He's the mangaka, and he can do what he wants.. although it won't be an example of "foreshadowing", he can very easily say that Crocodile had awakened his DF back then and it would actually make sense.

He can say that Enel had awakened his DF..

Hell he can even say that Buggy awakened his DF..


The bottom line is that we don't know much about DF's being awakened in the first place. So it leaves alot up to speculation.. but the fact still stands that Oda has complete control over his story and even though it wouldn't be foreshadowing per say, he can still end up stating that certain characters had awakened their DF long before the term "awakened" was a known thing. Doflamingo might know the proper term, sure, but that doesn't mean that every other character who has awakened their DF needs to know what it's called.

We still need Oda to give us more details on what DF awakening is though, at the end of the day..



P.S. I see you say that you stopped watching One Piece.. how come? (If you don't mind me asking)

I would highly recommend that you at least read the manga because honestly the story just keeps getting better and better.

Thanks, this is another good way of putting it too.

 

[Punk Hazard]

Oda didn't have Haki figured out either during the beginning of the manga.. yet if he wants to he can say that characters were using Haki in any given situation.

He's the mangaka, and he can do what he wants.. although it won't be an example of "foreshadowing", he can very easily say that Crocodile had awakened his DF back then and it would actually make sense.

He can say that Enel had awakened his DF..

Hell he can even say that Buggy awakened his DF..


The bottom line is that we don't know much about DF's being awakened in the first place. So it leaves alot up to speculation.. but the fact still stands that Oda has complete control over his story and even though it wouldn't be foreshadowing per say, he can still end up stating that certain characters had awakened their DF long before the term "awakened" was a known thing. Doflamingo might know the proper term, sure, but that doesn't mean that every other character who has awakened their DF needs to know what it's called.

We still need Oda to give us more details on what DF awakening is though, at the end of the day..



P.S. I see you say that you stopped watching One Piece.. how come? (If you don't mind me asking)

I would highly recommend that you at least read the manga because honestly the story just keeps getting better and better.

It's called retroactive writing

 

[Caliburn]

The first time we actually seen the use of a awakening devil fruit was the impel down which was an arc way before dressrosa. The reason why I'm giving Crocodile the benefit of the doubt is because he was the first person before doflamingo to mention or even tell who had the power of an awakened devil fruit. And usually when you have the knowledge/mechanics to a certain power, that usually suggest that you have that kind of power too.

And like a few people, some actually thought Crocodile was a awakening after he informed the group that the impel guards are awakened zoans along with how a zoan type awakening effected them differently than other devil fruits. It just became more vocal after doflamingo (a colleague/former warlord) confimred everything he said on the paramythia's df awakening perspective. Just like how zoans awakening are different, the same would be for paramythia and logias.

To be honest no logia has done anything different in nature(purpose). The nature of the ice fruit is to freeze, so freezing a tsunami, a lake, or a pound is not considered different. But for sand however it's not to decay objects or to absorb fluids from people's body. Sand does not do that when you hold it or put it on desk. But when you put a glass of water in a freezer or some place that is constantly producing ice, you will end up freezing that glass of water into ice. I'm not trying to make things up as I go along, I'm just trying to pick up on hidden concepts in the older mangas. Haki would be another good example because we've seen it in like the first chaper/episode but at the time we still didn't know what it's called they just had another name for it. Like great spirit and mantra. Now that the series carried over some more we got a better understanding for it and what advantages it gives you.
Maybe just maybe Crocodile saying his odd-like ability that he called "a special ability" is just another wording for "awakened logia" in the meantime Oda finalizes everything like he did for haki, right?

I clearly mentioned ID before. It was even the first sentence in my previous post and my point was that not only is that already quite far in the story (around 500 chapters), it had no influence on it whatsoever as no one suddenly started questioning DF and thinking "hmm Crocodile might be an awakened one too". That only started happening during the Dressrosa arc (around 800 chapters), so very recently.

What's more because it was Crocodile himself who mentioned the awakened zoans shortly before his DF power was explained once more and in particular his ability to suck the moisture out of things, it makes little sense that he is an awakened one too or that this is even implied. If that would be the case, it would have made much more sense that it was mentioned here as there was no reason for him to not mention it, but instead his ability to suck the moisture out of things was portrayed as being natural to the sand sand man.

Not only makes the ID reference no difference whatsoever, it even works against your statement.

And I seriously doubt your claim that there were a few people. I admit that I can't prove that there wasn't anyone in the entire world who would have come to this quite irrational conclusion, but I'm rather certain that you just are saying this now as even at this very moment we actually know almost nothing about what awakened DF are. Let alone that someone came to the conclusion that Crocodile is one just because he mentioned that the strong point of an awakened zoan is their durability. There was no connection whatsoever between Crocodile and those zoans, so someone saying that they are the same is randomly guessing.

Seriously you make it sound like Crocodile gave some lengthy, elaborate explanation on awakened DF users, but he just said two-three short sentences with little information. So saying that just because Crocodile knows something that by default it means he has it too, that's like me saying that just because I know which one is the gas pedal, I'm a professional F1 driver.

And you have just proven my point. Aokiji is an ice-man, he creates ice. That however is something different than freezing. Ice itself is the result of a freezing process. When you stick something in the freezer, it starts to freeze because of the temperature, not because there is ice. So that Aokiji with a simple touch can turn extremely large volumes of water into ice can be questioned as being "normal". The thing I tried to say here, is that the line between normal and awakened is unclear and that you just subjectively decided that Crocodile's ability to absorb moisture is not "normal" despite the fact that everyone always considered it normal, has been clearly explained as being normal and that there definitely is a rational connection between the two, just like there is between ice and freezing. And several people have been doing this for multiple characters.


So in the end we have almost no information about awakened fruits. That information you don't have you then subjectively used to claim that Crocodile is an awakened one and you then even portrayed that as being a fact. No you don't give that the benefit of the doubt. There is no reason to assume he is awakened, it has never been stated nor implied he is awakened, so that he isn't one that's what you give the benefit of the doubt for.

Spoiler

Haki :bdpf:

Your point being? As you're miscalculating if you think you can draw a parallel here with Haki.

Oda didn't have Haki figured out either during the beginning of the manga.. yet if he wants to he can say that characters were using Haki in any given situation.

He's the mangaka, and he can do what he wants.. although it won't be an example of "foreshadowing", he can very easily say that Crocodile had awakened his DF back then and it would actually make sense.

He can say that Enel had awakened his DF..

Hell he can even say that Buggy awakened his DF..


The bottom line is that we don't know much about DF's being awakened in the first place. So it leaves alot up to speculation.. but the fact still stands that Oda has complete control over his story and even though it wouldn't be foreshadowing per say, he can still end up stating that certain characters had awakened their DF long before the term "awakened" was a known thing. Doflamingo might know the proper term, sure, but that doesn't mean that every other character who has awakened their DF needs to know what it's called.

We still need Oda to give us more details on what DF awakening is though, at the end of the day..



P.S. I see you say that you stopped watching One Piece.. how come? (If you don't mind me asking)

I would highly recommend that you at least read the manga because honestly the story just keeps getting better and better.

Haki and awakened users are two very different cases and as I have said before Oda might be opportunistic and portrays something differently than it originally was, but that makes no difference. If Oda didn't say nor imply in the past that Crocodile was an awakened user, but decides to change it in the present, that doesn't take away it was neither said nor implied in the past.

So when someone is using the argument that Crocodile's abilities are not normal and must be an awakened one, well that argumentation is completely invalid when those abilities date from a time that it was certainly not the intention for him to be an awakened one. That Oda might change his opinion later on makes no difference. Also that would require a confirmation about this, which we do not have. So you can't just portray quite a subjective assumption as being a proven fact.

You do realize you have just proven the point I have been making all this time and invalidated his?

Also the argument that Oda can do whatever he wants is kinda worthless. Yes he can, but if a mangaka is continuously contradicting his own facts, his series will be abominable and if you're going to keep following that argument you can't discuss anything anymore as nothing is certain. Realistically every mangaka is bound by the rules he himself placed and he can't just contradict them as then he loses all credibility. He can bend them to his will, but if he wants to be taken seriously he is bound by his own restrictions.

 

[LBeezy]

It's called retroactive writing

Thank you.

Your point being? As you're miscalculating if you think you can draw a parallel here with Haki.

No miscalculations.. the parallel has already been drawn.

Haki and awakened users are two very different cases and as I have said before Oda might be opportunistic and portrays something differently than it originally was, but that makes no difference. If Oda didn't say nor imply in the past that Crocodile was an awakened user, but decides to change it in the present, that doesn't take away it was neither said nor implied in the past.

Okay.. I understand what you're saying here, and I agree.

So when someone is using the argument that Crocodile's abilities are not normal and must be an awakened one, well that argumentation is completely invalid

It's not completely invalid though

when those abilities date from a time that it was certainly not the intention for him to be an awakened one. That Oda might change his opinion later on makes no difference. Also that would require a confirmation about this, which we do not have. So you can't just portray quite a subjective assumption as being a proven fact.

I agree that one can't portray such a subjective assumption as being a proven fact, but you can't dismiss the fact that if Oda wants it to happen, it is possible. If Oda says it to be true, it would actually make sense.. it's not like it would be a plot hole or anything.

You do realize you have just proven the point I have been making all this time and invalidated his?

I'm not saying anything about Crocodile that's not factual. I'm just saying that you can't completely rule out the idea of him having awakened his DF.. it's not an impossible scenario.. if we get more information on DF awakening and it really matches up with people's theories about Crocodile, then cool.

I'm not dismissing the possibility completely like you are.

I feel like you should be just a little more open minded bro.

Also the argument that Oda can do whatever he wants is kinda worthless. Yes he can, but if a mangaka is continuously contradicting his own facts, his series will be abominable and if you're going to keep following that argument you can't discuss anything anymore as nothing is certain. Realistically every mangaka is bound by the rules he himself placed and he can't just contradict them as then he loses all credibility. He can bend them to his will, but if he wants to be taken seriously he is bound by his own restrictions.

But...... he wouldn't be contradicting anything.. it would actually make sense if he says that certain characters had already awakened their DF's a long time ago, but they just didn't know the proper term for it like Doflamingo did. For all they know, they were just using their DF powers normally.

That's my only point.

Oda wouldn't be "foreshadowing" of course, but he wouldn't be "contradicting" or "bending his own stories rules" either.. it would actually still make sense from a literary standpoint.