[Question] Are Specie/Genetic Power Levels Fixed?

Infant

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As in, is the power of any type of fighter limited by their genetics (being alien, human or animal)?

With the most powerful humans in the story having powers derived from aliens and those aliens in turn only being combatable by the main characters, it seems that power levels/groupings are set by genetics.

However, there seems to be counters to this. We have in the story Gai who cant use chakra techniques very well but is able to train and achieve superior powers with his Eight Gates. We also have the Puppet Style which was developed specifically for those lacking in chakra technique talent and it gave us potentially the most powerful Akatsuki in Sasori - Akatsuki being an organisation of genetic monsters.

Of course, an argument of speed can be made. All the powers don't count for much if you can't use them before getting killed. But even so, there are counters. With someone like Suigetsu, even his 10yr old self would absolutely pummel Gai because of his unique body powers.

And of course there are also the animals. By nature, the average animal is stronger than a man. However, chakra techniques seemed to put people above animals, even giant animals in the series. Still, those same animals themselves were able to use chakra powers to become legendary, such as the sages. Not only, but to the point where the strongest people were famed for learning and working with them.

So in light of all this, is there a genetically determined power level or limit? Among normal people, animals and aliens, how would you rank their power levels?
 

wanderingcactus

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I think there is a physical barrier (life force) but not so much a limitation depending on your attributes (chakra).

Aliens certainly have the advantage as they are Sages themselves. The process of their immortality also states just how much chakra they have.

As for the animals, humans and non-humans alike, there truly isn't much difference other than intelligence and application of chakra. We know that all living beings have some type of life force that can be used as substitute for chakra.

I suppose they can go hand in hand where the vessel can either have too much chakra or too much life force. We know that you can get extra chakra (the principle of Sage Mode). Although there is a drawback to taking extra chakra as discussed by Jiraiya.

Aliens and humans can also transcend by simply taking in more chakra or expending their own life force (Gai's 8 Gates and Nagato's resurrection technique: Rinne Tensei)

So I would say that there is a fixed base to it but it can be overcome under special circumstances only.
I would not say that only the humans with the lineage of the aliens are able to transcend.

We know that transplanting works. Kakashi was able to be Indra level by having Obito's eyes.
Shin was not an Uchiha but his special trait allowed him to take in Uchiha DNA and become an Uchiha and be able to produce his own Mangekyu.

Danzo and the other people who stole eyes and Hashirama cells.

The existence of Orochimaru is proof of this as well (although I do suspect him being part Otsutsuki)
 
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I think there is a physical barrier (life force) but not so much a limitation depending on your attributes (chakra).

Aliens certainly have the advantage as they are Sages themselves. The process of their immortality also states just how much chakra they have.

As for the animals, humans and non-humans alike, there truly isn't much difference other than intelligence and application of chakra. We know that all living beings have some type of life force that can be used as substitute for chakra.

I suppose they can go hand in hand where the vessel can either have too much chakra or too much life force. We know that you can get extra chakra (the principle of Sage Mode). Although there is a drawback to taking extra chakra as discussed by Jiraiya.

Aliens and humans can also transcend by simply taking in more chakra or expending their own life force (Gai's 8 Gates and Nagato's resurrection technique: Rinne Tensei)

So I would say that there is a fixed base to it but it can be overcome under special circumstances only.
I would not say that only the humans with the lineage of the aliens are able to transcend.

We know that transplanting works. Kakashi was able to be Indra level by having Obito's eyes.
Shin was not an Uchiha but his special trait allowed him to take in Uchiha DNA and become an Uchiha and be able to produce his own Mangekyu.

Danzo and the other people who stole eyes and Hashirama cells.

The existence of Orochimaru is proof of this as well (although I do suspect him being part Otsutsuki)
With the animals being the original sages (apparently, Hagaromo learned SM from the White Snake Sage), is it necessary that they lack intelligence?
 

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With the animals being the original sages (apparently, Hagaromo learned SM from the White Snake Sage), is it necessary that they lack intelligence?
Hm.. Never knew that Hagoromo learned SM from the White Snake Sage. That is news to me. Anyways, intelligence do not necessarily come to how highly capable of thought one is but rather whether or not they are sentient. Then what are they capable of doing with their degree of sentience.
If one can express themselves to others and it can be communicated, then they are intelligent species.

Animals in Narutoverse, especially Sages are not necessarily low IQ. Come to think of it, Kurama was nothing more than a rampaging angry spirit beast until we know more as to why he was like that. So it is probably not the case that they are stupid but rather there is a miscommunication happening.

Much like a dog can bark at you all they want but since we are not aware of their communication style, we might think that they are being a nuisance. I mean the Snake Sage would devour and turn people into snakes if they cannot handle the training. Maybe it is just that he is forcing the Sage Mode into them but at the expense of no longer being able to revert back to human.
We see Jiraiya partially becoming a toad because he cannot use SM perfectly. So maybe that was the entire idea of his punishment.
 
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Infant

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yes like in gekei kenkei is based o,n genitic powerz and all no????..
Well, its a type of energy instead of a form of energy.

But its not unrelated as Hereditary Elements can be learned, as we saw with the 3rd TK and Particle Style
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Hm.. Never knew that Hagoromo learned SM from the White Snake Sage. That is news to me. Anyways, intelligence do not necessarily come to how highly capable of thought one is but rather whether or not they are sentient. Then what are they capable of doing with their degree of sentience.
If one can express themselves to others and it can be communicated, then they are intelligent species.

Animals in Narutoverse, especially Sages are not necessarily low IQ. Come to think of it, Kurama was nothing more than a rampaging angry spirit beast until we know more as to why he was like that. So it is probably not the case that they are stupid but rather there is a miscommunication happening.

Much like a dog can bark at you all they want but since we are not aware of their communication style, we might think that they are being a nuisance. I mean the Snake Sage would devour and turn people into snakes if they cannot handle the training. Maybe it is just that he is forcing the Sage Mode into them but at the expense of no longer being able to revert back to human.
We see Jiraiya partially becoming a toad because he cannot use SM perfectly. So maybe that was the entire idea of his punishment.
Saw it on the wiki site myself, but apparently its more of a rumor than a fact
 
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wanderingcactus

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Well, its a type of energy instead of a form of energy.

But its not unrelated as Hereditary Elements can be learned, as we saw with the 3rd TK and Particle Style
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Saw it on the wiki site myself, but apparently its more of a rumor than a fact
Probably from the filler episodes. They do include the anime there so you have to look at their sources. I just cannot seem to remember anything about Hagoromo and Hamura since the only thing that was covered there is that they are twins of Kaguya, they sealed the Juubi which turned out to be Kaguya and split her up into 2 beings: Juubi and Gedo Mazou. Then the twins separated and Hagoromo became the RS of Earth and Hamura of Moon.

No info in the manga about their adolescence or any upbringing whatsoever.
 

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Probably from the filler episodes. They do include the anime there so you have to look at their sources. I just cannot seem to remember anything about Hagoromo and Hamura since the only thing that was covered there is that they are twins of Kaguya, they sealed the Juubi which turned out to be Kaguya and split her up into 2 beings: Juubi and Gedo Mazou. Then the twins separated and Hagoromo became the RS of Earth and Hamura of Moon.

No info in the manga about their adolescence or any upbringing whatsoever.
Yeah, that's a pity

Still, the age of the White Snake Sage does allow for it to be true
 

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But doesn't it clash with the idea of ninshu being turned into ninjutsu to only create a higher level of war?
There are 2 things about the ninshu: 1) it is an ideology of linkage 2) it is a source of power

Ninshu was Hagoromo's choice for humanity's salvation, not ninjutsu. He saw Asura gain massive amounts of power by uniting people behind him when he was weak due to being a late bloomer. He thought that it was a better choice as he had seen what humans were like with ninjutsu.

So Asura became the head of religion for that.

So yes, ninshu is very capable for a higher level of war. Hamura's side can attest to that. Since we have parallels and Hamura's side is the antithesis, we can say that the choice of power on the Moon is ninshu as the choice of power on Earth is ninjutsu.

We know that Naruto's use of ninshu is extremely combat effective as well as knowing that Asura was able to keep up with Indra.

If SM and 8G were already there, then it would've been high level to begin with, perhaps
yeah I think that the introduction of the Otstusuki only just lead to RSM. Perhaps people were already capable of using physical enhancement techniques. As for ninshu, IDK if that is an Otsutsuki tech like ninjutsu. I would think that it is though. Since Otsutsuki are all about that paired antithesis stuff.

I think humans just waged war like we do. Using whatever techs are available and honing knowledge.

Otsutsuki crushed that with using ninjutsu and ninshu.
 

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There are 2 things about the ninshu: 1) it is an ideology of linkage 2) it is a source of power

Ninshu was Hagoromo's choice for humanity's salvation, not ninjutsu. He saw Asura gain massive amounts of power by uniting people behind him when he was weak due to being a late bloomer. He thought that it was a better choice as he had seen what humans were like with ninjutsu.

So Asura became the head of religion for that.

So yes, ninshu is very capable for a higher level of war. Hamura's side can attest to that. Since we have parallels and Hamura's side is the antithesis, we can say that the choice of power on the Moon is ninshu as the choice of power on Earth is ninjutsu.

We know that Naruto's use of ninshu is extremely combat effective as well as knowing that Asura was able to keep up with Indra.



yeah I think that the introduction of the Otstusuki only just lead to RSM. Perhaps people were already capable of using physical enhancement techniques. As for ninshu, IDK if that is an Otsutsuki tech like ninjutsu. I would think that it is though. Since Otsutsuki are all about that paired antithesis stuff.

I think humans just waged war like we do. Using whatever techs are available and honing knowledge.

Otsutsuki crushed that with using ninjutsu and ninshu.
Yeah

The problem with SM and 8G is that they require the toughest training, have high dangers and rare prerequisits.

Ninjutsu is practically easy for anyone to do, compared to those two
 

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Yeah

The problem with SM and 8G is that they require the toughest training, have high dangers and rare prerequisits.

Ninjutsu is practically easy for anyone to do, compared to those two
well doesn't ninjutsu require someone to use chakra and that requires training?

I think they just are not able to use ninjutsu just then because they were not being overly reliant or the sages wouldn't teach the humans how to use chakra. I mean I know a good reason why and that is because humans are greedy jerks and to teach them that is to give them even more weapons.
 

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well doesn't ninjutsu require someone to use chakra and that requires training?

I think they just are not able to use ninjutsu just then because they were not being overly reliant or the sages wouldn't teach the humans how to use chakra. I mean I know a good reason why and that is because humans are greedy jerks and to teach them that is to give them even more weapons.
Of course, i just meant by comparison.

Also because failing SM training gets you killed, the 8G literally kills you at the highest level while ninjutsu at least guarantees being able to walk on walls
 

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Of course, i just meant by comparison.

Also because failing SM training gets you killed, the 8G literally kills you at the highest level while ninjutsu at least guarantees being able to walk on walls
True but I don't think humans and animals at that time were able to develop those techniques up to that point. I can see them probably get probably a few gates up for the humans while the animals a certain level of ninjutsu from their SM.
 

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True but I don't think humans and animals at that time were able to develop those techniques up to that point. I can see them probably get probably a few gates up for the humans while the animals a certain level of ninjutsu from their SM.
Well, if they trained exclusively in nature energy usage, they shoud have been better than modern sages, i think
 

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Well, if they trained exclusively in nature energy usage, they shoud have been better than modern sages, i think
I think SM are just animals, like in the folklores. Where humans depended solely on physical strengthening like the 8Gates.
It's just that Kaguya is the Lucifer/Prometheus of Narutoverse. She is the being that brought the "fire" or in this case the knowledge of ninjutsu and ninshu to humans.

I think the world before her was exclusively split. Humans dominated through the use of physical energy while the wild life were using the spiritual energy. Humans were probably low on spiritual energy/chakra

The introduction of Otstusuki changed that and possibly tipped the scale when humans started being able to learn how to harness and use chakra.

But yeah, I bet the animals whom have strictly been Sages from that time are considerably stronger or on par with the Tailed Beasts.
 

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I think SM are just animals, like in the folklores. Where humans depended solely on physical strengthening like the 8Gates.
It's just that Kaguya is the Lucifer/Prometheus of Narutoverse. She is the being that brought the "fire" or in this case the knowledge of ninjutsu and ninshu to humans.

I think the world before her was exclusively split. Humans dominated through the use of physical energy while the wild life were using the spiritual energy. Humans were probably low on spiritual energy/chakra

The introduction of Otstusuki changed that and possibly tipped the scale when humans started being able to learn how to harness and use chakra.

But yeah, I bet the animals whom have strictly been Sages from that time are considerably stronger or on par with the Tailed Beasts.
Hold on

Dont the 8 Gates require chakra to use?
 
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