are Limbo clones as powerful as the user?

[Holy God]

My Answer was based on speculation. You explained to me that the madara did not specifically say this.
Then you said it was limited by plot and that Madara had experience as an Old man so he knew his limitations.

We both use speculation in understanding the OP yet your speculation is more sound than mine?

My speculation is based on...

IT usage
Divine Tree usage
Lack of Experience

I'm simply arguing two things

He didn't create SUPER powerful limbo simply because he needed that chakra for Divine Tree and IT
OR
He wasn't fully aware of his Limbo capabilities due to lack of experience.

To sit here and try to argue your speculation with my speculation is a waste of time.

You said the capabilities of Limbo were limited in a way that Madara would have to "train" in order to develop. You then further elaborated that the capability you were talking about was merely the shadows using techniques. I simply don't understand how someone could believe his exact duplicate shadows have to be "trained" in order to use techniques. We might as well deem the discussion over though since the main argument was lost in it.

 

[KidGamer65]

Let me put it this way:

-Madara said that Limbo clone is "him" existing in another dimension.
-Madara can use Jutsus.
-Thus "him" that is existing in the other dimension should also be able to use Jutsus because nothing suggests otherwise.

Limbo is a clone technique, and in every clone technique, the clones are able to use the original's Jutsus whether it is Shadow Clones, Water Clones, Earth Clones, Wood Clones etc...

saying that a clone can't use Jutsus of the original just because you didn't see it yourself using them, is just like saying that a normal Human can't pee just because you didn't see him yourself pee...

That's a bad comparison because it's already proven humans can pee nor did they throw a human in front of a toilet only for him to no pee. It's not proven that Limbo can use the original's jutsu. Limbo has been in battle 5 times and it's punched or used physical attacks every single time. Saying they are clones doesn't matter when they didn't do so in the 4-5 appearances they made. The original Madara was also using jutsu at that time so I don't want to see any excuses of that manner.

Limbo isn't even a clone technique in the same sense as the techs you mentioned. Stop comparing it to Shadow Clones, Earth Clones and Water Clones. It's a jutsu that creates a shadow in an adjacent world. The DB uses the word "shadow" and not "clone" for a reason.

the DB stated that not only will the Jutsu user gain a duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. so obviously being invisible is not the only advantage that the Limbo grants. "duplicate" means that they are exactly the same and "equal ability" could mean power. they are basically a copy-paste of the user with same capabilities plus the ability of not being seen.

Already addressed this. Idk why you think repeating this and posting an entry I've read multiple times in the past will change what I said. Water Clones, Earth Clones and Wood Clones create duplicate of the users yet they aren't as powerful as the original so this also doesn't prove anything.

the reason that the clone was able to blitz all the Bijuus was that the user had great physical abilities to begin with. (and who knows, his Limbo could've used Susanoo). let's say that part 1 Naruto had a Limbo clone, do you think that it will also be able to blitz all the Bijuus?

Which is irrelevant. We're not talking about Part 1 Naruto's Limbo. We're talking about Madara's and anyone who argues that shadow clones are overall superior to Limbo is delusional. Take Limbo from Madara and give him a Shadow Clone and tell me if he can replicate everything he did w/ Limbo in the Manga?

Wait, don't bother because we both know he can't, because what makes Limbo powerful in the first place is that no one can perceive it nor can they hurt it. The DB blatantly states that. "Squaring off against a user, a counter attack is impossible". There's also the fact that it can't be permanently defeated, and Madara can switch places with them. If Limbo were an ordinary shadow clone he wouldn't have caught the Bijuu, he wouldn't have almost killed Sasuke nor would he have caused Naruto and Sasuke as much trouble as he did.

And no, that isn't purely because of the user's physical power. Madara was a hundred meters away from the Bijuu at least, yet Limbo crossed that distance and then knocked them all flat in less than 10 seconds, and that's because Limbo spawns where the user's eyesight is focused. Then we have the fact that Madara is not physically strong enough to hit all 9 Bijuu hard enough to knock the wind out of them and put them down for a few seconds. Even if you argue that he is, he's not fast enough to knock them out how he did, and even if you argue that....Madara can't fly which is exactly what Limbo did.

and you are the one who is arguing that Naruto's Shadow Clones are on par with Madara's Limbo clones... and you admitted that if Madara's Limbo clone can access Madara's techs it can wreck Naruto's Shadow Clone but you are saying that it can not and that's like saying that a Shadow Clone of Madara can wreck Naruto's clone but Limbo clone can not...

Which is also irrelevant, because Naruto himself can actually perceive Limbo due to RSM, which removes it's main advantage. That has nothing to do w/ Limbo vs. Shadow Clones. I also never said that Naruto's Shadow Clones=Madara's Limbo. I said they were fighting on par with him. Who would've won in the end is another question.


-Hagoromo
-Nagato
-Obito
-Sasuke
-Naruto
-Kaguya

Out of every shinobi in existence these are the only 5 people who have the power to perceive Limbo.

-Hagoromo
-Sasuke
-Naruto
-Kaguya
-DMS Kakashi
-Obito
-Hamura
-Toneri

These people have the power to hurt it, but the bold can't even perceive it.

That technique alone lets Madara defeat almost every top tier shinobi let alone it + other techs. Shadow Clones are not better. Not even close.

 

[Scryed]

That's a bad comparison because it's already proven humans can pee nor did they throw a human in front of a toilet only for him to no pee. It's not proven that Limbo can use the original's jutsu. Limbo has been in battle 5 times and it's punched or used physical attacks every single time. Saying they are clones doesn't matter when they didn't do so in the 4-5 appearances they made. The original Madara was also using jutsu at that time so I don't want to see any excuses of that manner.

Limbo isn't even a clone technique in the same sense as the techs you mentioned. Stop comparing it to Shadow Clones, Earth Clones and Water Clones. It's a jutsu that creates a shadow in an adjacent world. The DB uses the word "shadow" and not "clone" for a reason.



Already addressed this. Idk why you think repeating this and posting an entry I've read multiple times in the past will change what I said. Water Clones, Earth Clones and Wood Clones create duplicate of the users yet they aren't as powerful as the original so this also doesn't prove anything.



Which is irrelevant. We're not talking about Part 1 Naruto's Limbo. We're talking about Madara's and anyone who argues that shadow clones are overall superior to Limbo is delusional. Take Limbo from Madara and give him a Shadow Clone and tell me if he can replicate everything he did w/ Limbo in the Manga?

Wait, don't bother because we both know he can't, because what makes Limbo powerful in the first place is that no one can perceive it nor can they hurt it. The DB blatantly states that. "Squaring off against a user, a counter attack is impossible". There's also the fact that it can't be permanently defeated, and Madara can switch places with them. If Limbo were an ordinary shadow clone he wouldn't have caught the Bijuu, he wouldn't have almost killed Sasuke nor would he have caused Naruto and Sasuke as much trouble as he did.

And no, that isn't purely because of the user's physical power. Madara was a hundred meters away from the Bijuu at least, yet Limbo crossed that distance and then knocked them all flat in less than 10 seconds, and that's because Limbo spawns where the user's eyesight is focused. Then we have the fact that Madara is not physically strong enough to hit all 9 Bijuu hard enough to knock the wind out of them and put them down for a few seconds. Even if you argue that he is, he's not fast enough to knock them out how he did, and even if you argue that....Madara can't fly which is exactly what Limbo did.



Which is also irrelevant, because Naruto himself can actually perceive Limbo due to RSM, which removes it's main advantage. That has nothing to do w/ Limbo vs. Shadow Clones. I also never said that Naruto's Shadow Clones=Madara's Limbo. I said they were fighting on par with him. Who would've won in the end is another question.


-Hagoromo
-Nagato
-Obito
-Sasuke
-Naruto
-Kaguya

Out of every shinobi in existence these are the only 5 people who have the power to perceive Limbo.

-Hagoromo
-Sasuke
-Naruto
-Kaguya
-DMS Kakashi
-Obito
-Hamura
-Toneri

These people have the power to hurt it, but the bold can't even perceive it.

That technique alone lets Madara defeat almost every top tier shinobi let alone it + other techs. Shadow Clones are not better. Not even close.

Don't Hamura and Toneri have RSM through the Tenseigan? I would assume it would allow them to sense Limbo the way Naruto did.

 

[KidGamer65]

Don't Hamura and Toneri have RSM through the Tenseigan? I would assume it would allow them to sense Limbo the way Naruto did.

All we know is they got a cloaked mode that gave them the Gudo Dama. Not entirely sure if it's RSM or if it has a sensing ability on par w/ Naruto's in RSM.

 

[Glad Of War]

Naruto was fighting on par w/ them with his Shadow Clones who were only using Taijutsu and Rasengan. I'm gonna go ahead and say no.

Or, maybe Naruto clones with Six paths chakra were just as strong as the Limbo clones. Back when Madara was revitalize, a single Limbo clone whose power is massively inferior to the clones Naruto fought, one-shotted the Bijuus. Moreover Limbo clones were shown UTILIZING Perfect Susanoo on Naruto Ultimate Ninja storm substantiating the Databook proposition that they have equal ability just as the user. In regards to the Manga not affirming the Databook, that's because of PLOT. You won't have Limbo clones spamming Madara's techniques cuz no one is going to stop him.

 

[KidGamer65]

Or, maybe Naruto clones with Six paths chakra were just as strong as the Limbo clones. Back when Madara was revitalize, a single Limbo clone whose power is massively inferior to the clones Naruto fought, one-shotted the Bijuus. Moreover Limbo clones were shown UTILIZING Perfect Susanoo on Naruto Ultimate Ninja storm substantiating the Databook proposition that they have equal ability just as the user. In regards to the Manga not affirming the Databook, that's because of PLOT. You won't have Limbo clones spamming Madara's techniques cuz no one is going to stop him.

That's the game. The game is not even close to being canon so why are you even bringing it up? Naruto's clones w/ Taijutsu and Rasengan being on par with Limbo means that Limbo is not as strong as the original unless you want to tell me that RSM Naruto w/ Rasengan can match a full power Madara.

Plot isn't an argument, it's an excuse in this case. Limbo appeared 5 times and punched it's foes every time. Even when Madara was using Ninjutsu of his own Limbo only used physical attacks. Literally nothing supporting any claim of "Limbo can use all the original's techniques".

 

[Hakke]

That's a bad comparison because it's already proven humans can pee nor did they throw a human in front of a toilet only for him to no pee. It's not proven that Limbo can use the original's jutsu. Limbo has been in battle 5 times and it's punched or used physical attacks every single time. Saying they are clones doesn't matter when they didn't do so in the 4-5 appearances they made. The original Madara was also using jutsu at that time so I don't want to see any excuses of that manner.

just because that they weren't shown to use Jutsus in the Manga does not mean that they couldn't/can't. EMS Sasuke didn't use PS avatar in the Manga, does that mean the he couldn't use it?

Madara stated that Limbo is "himself" that exist in the Limbo world. [

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] Madara can use Jutsus yes or no? so why can't Madara in the other dimension also use Jutsus? was it stated that it can't?

Limbo isn't even a clone technique in the same sense as the techs you mentioned. Stop comparing it to Shadow Clones, Earth Clones and Water Clones. It's a jutsu that creates a shadow in an adjacent world. The DB uses the word "shadow" and not "clone" for a reason.

Already addressed this. Idk why you think repeating this and posting an entry I've read multiple times in the past will change what I said. Water Clones, Earth Clones and Wood Clones create duplicate of the users yet they aren't as powerful as the original so this also doesn't prove anything.

this wasn't the point, when I said that they are exactly the same I wasn't implying that they are equal in power, I meant that just like the original, they have also have the skills and the ability to perform Jutsus just like the other Clone Techniques which are also duplicate of the user.

"equal ability" is what could mean that they are equal in power (which is a synonym for the word "ability")

Which is irrelevant. We're not talking about Part 1 Naruto's Limbo. We're talking about Madara's and anyone who argues that shadow clones are overall superior to Limbo is delusional. Take Limbo from Madara and give him a Shadow Clone and tell me if he can replicate everything he did w/ Limbo in the Manga?

Wait, don't bother because we both know he can't, because what makes Limbo powerful in the first place is that no one can perceive it nor can they hurt it. The DB blatantly states that. "Squaring off against a user, a counter attack is impossible". There's also the fact that it can't be permanently defeated, and Madara can switch places with them. If Limbo were an ordinary shadow clone he wouldn't have caught the Bijuu, he wouldn't have almost killed Sasuke nor would he have caused Naruto and Sasuke as much trouble as he did.

And no, that isn't purely because of the user's physical power. Madara was a hundred meters away from the Bijuu at least, yet Limbo crossed that distance and then knocked them all flat in less than 10 seconds, and that's because Limbo spawns where the user's eyesight is focused. Then we have the fact that Madara is not physically strong enough to hit all 9 Bijuu hard enough to knock the wind out of them and put them down for a few seconds. Even if you argue that he is, he's not fast enough to knock them out how he did, and even if you argue that....Madara can't fly which is exactly what Limbo did.

Ok. but wait Rinnegan alive SM Madara's Limbo could fly? I thought he was able to do that because of his physical abilities.

anyway, I agree. he obviously can't replicate this feat with a Shadow Clone.

Which is also irrelevant, because Naruto himself can actually perceive Limbo due to RSM, which removes it's main advantage. That has nothing to do w/ Limbo vs. Shadow Clones. I also never said that Naruto's Shadow Clones=Madara's Limbo. I said they were fighting on par with him. Who would've won in the end is another question.

do you think that Naruto's shadow clones would fight on par with clones of Madara that can use all his Jutsus? or do you think that Madara's Limbos were just dicking around?

-Hagoromo
-Nagato
-Obito
-Sasuke
-Naruto
-Kaguya

Out of every shinobi in existence these are the only 5 people who have the power to perceive Limbo.

-Hagoromo
-Sasuke
-Naruto
-Kaguya
-DMS Kakashi
-Obito
-Hamura
-Toneri

These people have the power to hurt it, but the bold can't even perceive it.

Ok.

That technique alone lets Madara defeat almost every top tier shinobi let alone it + other techs. Shadow Clones are not better. Not even close.

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[KidGamer65]

just because that they weren't shown to use Jutsus in the Manga does not mean that they couldn't/can't. EMS Sasuke didn't use PS avatar in the Manga, does that mean the he couldn't use it?

Madara stated that Limbo is "himself" that exist in the Limbo world. [

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] Madara can use Jutsus yes or no? so why can't Madara in the other dimension also use Jutsus? was it stated that it can't?

Full stop. You need to understand what is being said here. No one is saying that since they didn't, they can't. They had the opportunity to do so FIVE TIMES AND THEY USED PHYSICAL ATTACKS EACH TIME. Even as Madara was using Ninjutsu in his real body. What does that tell you? That physical attacks are their only offensive capability. That's all evidence towards them being unable to do so.

EMS Sasuke did use PS in the Manga, and if he hadn't then no, arguing that he has the ability would be foolish because the only way to know if he possesses it is if he were to use it unless someone implied that he could beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Meanwhile you have limited to no evidence that they can use all the original's techs.

-DB never said they can.
-Them being clones aren't evidence.

Twisting Madara's wording doesn't help you here. Limbo is specifically stated to be a shadow of himself created in another dimension by Madara. It's not some alternate version of Madara independent from the original so this rationale is terrible. Zabuza's Water Clone is a duplicate of himself yet can only access 10% of the original's power.

Your logic: "Water Clones are duplicates of the user thus they can do everything the original can"
Manga: "Water Clones cannot do everything the original can"

this wasn't the point, when I said that they are exactly the same I wasn't implying that they are equal in power, I meant that just like the original, they have also the skills and the ability to perform Jutsus just like the other Clone Techniques which are also duplicate of the user.

Wrong. Limbo is not a clone technique so stop bringing this up. Water Clones are duplicates yet cannot access all of the user's techniques and power. Limbo doesn't get a special pass. The only way your argument would make sense is if they are equal to the original anyway so idk what you think you are trying to argue here. Especially since your thread title blatantly asks if Limbo is equal to the user in power.

"equal ability" is what could mean that they are equal in power (which is a synonym for the word "ability")

Or it could be their physical and mental ability. There is zero evidence for your side or my side so bringing this point up doesn't help you or refute the other evidence crushing your point.

Ok. but wait Rinnegan alive SM Madara's Limbo could fly? I thought he was able to do that because of his physical abilities.

No, he was clearly full on flying. Nothing to do with physical strength and speed.

And yes, Naruto's clones were fighting on par w/ Madara's Limbo for that little skirmish. Madara was clearly past the point of playing around.

 

[Glad Of War]

That's the game. The game is not even close to being canon so why are you even bringing it up? Naruto's clones w/ Taijutsu and Rasengan being on par with Limbo means that Limbo is not as strong as the original unless you want to tell me that RSM Naruto w/ Rasengan can match a full power Madara.

Plot isn't an argument, it's an excuse in this case. Limbo appeared 5 times and punched it's foes every time. Even when Madara was using Ninjutsu of his own Limbo only used physical attacks. Literally nothing supporting any claim of "Limbo can use all the original's techniques".

Actually, Naruto Ultimate Ninja storm was supervised by Kishimoto. Which means it has an, if not all the elements of canonicity.

Spoiler

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Withal, Naruto clones with Taijutsu is just as physically strong as Juubi Jinchuriki Madara. In ability, they come short in strength.

Considering most events in Naruto has been manipulated through plot induction, I wouldn't call it an excuse. Once is an excuse, twice is deliberate. Also you're making it sound like the Databook doesn't always mention things in contrast to the Manga. And yet it doesn't necessary means the Databook isn't true.

 

[KidGamer65]

Actually, Naruto Ultimate Ninja storm was supervised by Kishimoto. Which means it has an, if not all the elements of canonicity.

Spoiler

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Withal, Naruto clones with Taijutsu is just as physically strong as Juubi Jinchuriki Madara. In ability, they come short in strength.

Considering most events in Naruto has been manipulating through plot induction, I wouldn't call it an excuse. Once is an excuse, twice is deliberate. Also you're making it sound like the Databook doesn't always mention things in contrast to the Manga. And yet it doesn't necessary means the Databook isn't true.

That's irrelevant. Kishimoto's supervision has nothing to do with what is canon and what isn't. :lol A game is not canon to the Manga no matter who works on it unless someone comes out and states that it is.

Not this event. Limbo had 5 chances to use Ninjutsu yet used physical attacks each time. Anyone who wants to argue they can do everything the main Madara can do will have to provide more evidence than simply "nothing said they can't, and they are Madara's shadows". The DB didn't mention anything that clashes w/ the Manga in this case as addressed in previous posts.

 

[Glad Of War]

That's irrelevant. Kishimoto's supervision has nothing to do with what is canon and what isn't. :lol A game is not canon to the Manga no matter who works on it unless someone comes out and states that it is.

Not this event. Limbo had 5 chances to use Ninjutsu yet used physical attacks each time. Anyone who wants to argue they can do everything the main Madara can do will have to provide more evidence than simply "nothing said they can't, and they are Madara's shadows". The DB didn't mention anything that clashes w/ the Manga in this case as addressed in previous posts.

The strip clearly implies most of the ideas put into the game are directly gotten from Kishimoto. That should indicate the abilities depicted on the game is close to being cannon, but not entirely since the abilities doesn't come from Kishi's pen.

Withal, you can't pick and choose what event is susceptible to PLOT. If the results won't favor the main protagonists, it's likely due to plot. Like I said earlier, you won't have Limbo clones spamming Madara's techniques cuz no one is going stop him, not even Naruto or Sasuke. Additionally, the game substantiated the Databook proposition. You're saying it's not cannon thus it's not evidence. But the fact is, it is evidence. Even if we go with the claim the game doesn't has a bit of canonicity adhered to it, where do you suppose they got the idea that Limbo can use Susanoo?

 

[KidGamer65]

The strip clearly implies most of the ideas put into the game are directly gotten from Kishimoto. That should indicate the abilities depicted on the game is close to being cannon, but not entirely since the abilities doesn't come from Kishi's pen.

Withal, you can't pick and choose what event is susceptible to PLOT. If the results won't favor the main protagonists, it's likely due to plot. Like I said earlier, you won't have Limbo clones spamming Madara's techniques cuz no one is going stop him, not even Naruto or Sasuke. Additionally, the game substantiated the Databook proposition. You're saying it's not cannon thus it's not evidence. But the fact is, it is evidence. Even if we go with the claim the game doesn't has a bit of canonicity adhered to it, where do you suppose they got the idea that Limbo can use Susanoo?

Again. That has nothing to do with canonicity. Canon=Anything apart of the continuity of the Manga. Kishimoto doing something or being apart of something doesn't make it canon to the Manga unless it's stated to be canon. The author of DB Super isn't Toriyama yet it's still considered canon.

-The game is 100% irrelevant. In the game Asura Path can obliterate Chibaku Tensei, Yasaka Magatama creates a giant beyond Mountain Sized explosion and Orochimaru's Hydra can use a giant laser beam. Hinata has Rotation as well. It is not canon regardless of who worked on it.
-The DB doesn't say anything about Limbo being as strong as the user.
-Plot isn't an excuse you can make because you can't formulate any real reason for why Limbo can 100% use Madara's techs even though they've resorted to physical attacks each and every time. If there was a real reason for why they can, but didn't, saying "PLOT" would actually make sense.

 

[Glad Of War]

Again. That has nothing to do with canonicity. Canon=Anything apart of the continuity of the Manga. Kishimoto doing something or being apart of something doesn't make it canon to the Manga unless it's stated to be canon. The author of DB Super isn't Toriyama yet it's still considered canon.

-The game is 100% irrelevant. In the game Asura Path can obliterate Chibaku Tensei, Yasaka Magatama creates a giant beyond Mountain Sized explosion and Orochimaru's Hydra can use a giant laser beam. Hinata has Rotation as well. It is not canon regardless of who worked on it.
-The DB doesn't say anything about Limbo being as strong as the user.
-Plot isn't an excuse you can make because you can't formulate any real reason for why Limbo can 100% use Madara's techs even though they've resorted to physical attacks each and every time. If there was a real reason for why they can, but didn't, saying "PLOT" would actually make sense.

That logic would mean Boruto Manga isn't canon because it wasn't stated to be canon nor is Kishimoto the author, despite Kishimoto staThat logic would mean Boruto Manga isn't canon because it wasn't stated to be canon, despite he stated he's part of it. Moreover am not even suggesting the game is entirely canon.


"-The game is 100% irrelevant. In the game Asura Path can obliterate Chibaku Tensei"

These are feats, and nothing new, thus irrelevant.

DB stated Limbo has equal ability has the user. All things considered, even strength can categorized as an ability. Withal, PLOT isn't an excuse in the first place. Again there are events in Naruto that has been manipulated through plot induction. Most of the time our thoughts to such circumstance is that the Author must act on the benefit of the main protagonists and this would stop us from being dillemmatic. Madara's tech always resorted to physical attacks because you won't have him spamming Madara's techniques. No one is going to be stop him if it's the other way round. How many times do I have to say this?