are Limbo clones as powerful as the user?

[Holy God]

sigh....

I was illustrating to you the capabilities once given proper experience and development.

Sasuke couldn't escape dimensions on his own now he can travel to them freely...

Yes, Sasuke's own capabilities have improved, and I know such a thing is possible. Amenotejikara has not improved however, and that's the real point.

His lack of knowledge and experience for his own jutsu further proves he did not realize the capabilities of his limbo.

Sure, he did not realize that Limbo could be sensed by those things, but this in no way limits Limbo as far as I can understand? You still haven't stated in what way Limbo was limited.

 

[Mellanoma]

Sure, he did not realize that Limbo could be sensed by those things, but this in no way limits Limbo as far as I can understand? You still haven't stated in what way Limbo was limited.

Sigh....

The manga shows us Madara's Limbo was limited as the DB illustrates it can do everything.

That is not the argument. The argument is can Limbo use the abilities of the original owner of which I explained yes dependent on Madara's abilities and proficiency with his own jutsu which in comparison to Naruto, Madara needed time to develop his based on the lack of knowledge and experience of his own jutsu. Unless your going to argue people automatically know their jutsu capabilities?

 

[HyuugaHeir]

Yes. Bec who knows exactly. They literally on the other side.

 

[KidGamer65]

Naruto was fighting on par w/ them with his Shadow Clones who were only using Taijutsu and Rasengan. I'm gonna go ahead and say no.

 

[Hakke]

Naruto was fighting on par w/ them with his Shadow Clones who were only using Taijutsu and Rasengan. I'm gonna go ahead and say no.

when was that?

 

[KidGamer65]

when was that?

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[Hakke]

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okay... what happened after that? didn't the Limbo clones beat Naruto's clones?

 

[KidGamer65]

okay... what happened after that?

IT happened. Though simply reading further than what I posted would've told you that. :lol

 

[Hakke]

IT happened. Though simply reading further than what I posted would've told you that. :lol

I did read it actually, that's why I asked you. after IT happened their fight was never shown again. don't you think that the Limbo clones have already dealt with Naruto's clones?

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I don't think that Naruto's clones were fighting "on par" with them.

 

[KidGamer65]

I did read, that's why I asked you. after IT happened their fight was never shown again. don't you think that the Limbo clones have already dealt with Naruto's clones?

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I don't think that Naruto's clones were fighting "on par" with them.

IT would kill Naruto's clones. If Madara's clones really were as strong as the original and had access to all his techs Naruto's Shadow Clones wouldn't be fighting on par with them, and yes, they were fighting on par as neither Naruto nor Limbo had the upper hand.

Do you think Naruto could split his chakra in 5 and send one of those clones to fight a full power DR JJ Madara and not get wrecked in a matter of seconds? Though you could argue that they were just emulating Madara's fighting style as Madara barely used Ninjutsu when he was a JJ.

 

[Hakke]

IT would kill Naruto's clones. If Madara's clones really were as strong as the original and had access to all his techs Naruto's Shadow Clones wouldn't be fighting on par with them, and yes, they were fighting on par as neither Naruto nor Limbo had the upper hand.

Do you think Naruto could split his chakra in 5 and send one of those clones to fight a full power DR JJ Madara and not get wrecked in a matter of seconds? Though you could argue that they were just emulating Madara's fighting style as Madara barely used Ninjutsu when he was a JJ.

@Bold exactly, and I think Madara just wanted to have some fun with Taijutsu, we all know his character (i.e he could've killed the five Kages in a matter of seconds but he loved dicking around for a while)

and we all know the DRJJ Madara would wreck RSM Naruto, so even if Limbo clones were just a divisions of Madara, a Limbo clone should still be able to wreck a Naruto clone right?

and @underline the Limbo clones were stated to be a duplicate with equal ability so why they can't access the Original's techs? and just think of it for a sec, if a fodder Shadow Clones can perform all the original's Jutsus, why wouldn't a Rinnegan technique clones be able to do the same?

if Limbo clones can't use the same techs as the original they would be weaker than a B-rank technique which doesn't feel right.

 

[KidGamer65]

@Bold exactly, and I think Madara just wanted to have some fun with Taijutsu, we all know his character (i.e he could've killed the five Kages in a matter of seconds but he loved dicking around for a while)

and we all know the DRJJ Madara would wreck RSM Naruto, so even if Limbo clones were just a divisions of Madara, a Limbo clone should still be able to wreck a Naruto clone right?

and @underline the Limbo clones were stated to be a duplicate with equal ability so why they can't access the Original's techs? and just think of it for a sec, if a fodder Shadow Clones can perform all the original's Jutsus, why wouldn't a Rinnegan technique clones be able to do the same?

That's only if Limbo can use all of the original's jutsu, but they have only used physical attacks in ALL their appearances.

-Against the Bijuu.
-Against Naruto.
-Against Naruto and Sasuke.
-Against Naruto and Sasuke after getting his other eye.

"Equal ability" could easily mean that they are physically and mentally equal with the user. Shadow Clones main advantage is being a clone of the user. Limbo's main advantage is that it's invisible and cannot be touched by anyone w/o Hagoromo's power, meaning there are less than 5 people in the whole NV who can perceive it and overall out of people who have ever existed less than 10 can perceive it. Arguing that Limbo is an RG tech thus it has to be able to do what shadow clones can do doesn't help you when the advantage it has alone makes it a million times better than a shadow clone.

if Limbo clones can't use the same techs as the original they would be weaker than a B-rank technique which doesn't feel right.

You really think an invisible and impervious clone that knocked down all 9 Bijuu so fast that they hit the ground at the same time is weaker than a Shadow Clone just because they can't use the original's techniques? :lol

 

[Holy God]

Sigh....

The manga shows us Madara's Limbo was limited as the DB illustrates it can do everything.

So because Madara didn't use all of his abilities with Limbo, it was restricted? In a plot sense, sure, but Limbo wasn't actually restricted unless he's explicitly said to not be able to use all of his abilities.

That is not the argument. The argument is can Limbo use the abilities of the original owner of which I explained yes dependent on Madara's abilities and proficiency with his own jutsu which in comparison to Naruto, Madara needed time to develop his based on the lack of knowledge and experience of his own jutsu. Unless your going to argue people automatically know their jutsu capabilities?

No, but Madara already had time to experiment when he was old. He already knew his limitations and powers based on when he gave praise to Sasuke. With Limbo, there's nothing to improve on. Shadows of the original are made. Naruto only had trouble with clones because he lacked chakra control as far as I know.

 

[Mellanoma]

So because Madara didn't use all of his abilities with Limbo, it was restricted? In a plot sense, sure, but Limbo wasn't actually restricted unless he's explicitly said to not be able to use all of his abilities.

What?

The Plot and DB says differently but you feel that since Madara didn't say it specifically its not apart of the plot? That makes no sense at all lol

No, but Madara already had time to experiment when he was old. He already knew his limitations and powers based on when he gave praise to Sasuke. With Limbo, there's nothing to improve on. Shadows of the original are made. Naruto only had trouble with clones because he lacked chakra control as far as I know.

Where in the manga does it show Old Madara using Limbo?

The guy could barely move let alone create fully mobile invisible clones that solo 9 bijuu
In one instance you say "speculation" since its not stated by plot or Madara himself.

THEN you give speculation of your own. You are contradicting yourself in your own post.
Make your mind up!


I have a feeling you're about to start fanboying lol

 

[Holy God]

What?

The Plot and DB says differently but you feel that since Madara didn't say it specifically its not apart of the plot? That makes no sense at all lol

What I'm saying is that Madara never used Limbo enough to provide concrete evidence that all his powers can be used by the shadows albeit the Databook saying they can. Only in that respect is Limbo "restricted" by plot. It isn't however contradicted in the manga, as it's not explicitly said he can't use all of his abilities. In essence, Limbo was restricted by plot in that Madara never showed access to all his ability, but it's not restricted absolutely as in just because he didn't, doesn't mean he can't.

Where in the manga does it show Old Madara using Limbo?

The guy could barely move let alone create fully mobile invisible clones that solo 9 bijuu
In one instance you say "speculation" since its not stated by plot or Madara himself.

It's so heavily implied that it's literally the only option. In Limbo's first appearance, he tells Black Zetsu that he'll showcase the true power of his Rinnegan and proceeds to cast the technique, thus he obviously knew he had it and what it did. Furthermore, he notes in his head when fighting Naruto and Sasuke that he already knows Limbo's limitations. The shadows are imitations of the original and Madara knew this. Obviously when he was old they wouldn't be able to fight Tailed Beasts.

THEN you give speculation of your own. You are contradicting yourself in your own post.
Make your mind up!

I have a feeling you're about to start fanboying lol

There's no "fanboying" to do in this argument. You said Limbo was limited and I simply don't see how it was. If anything I'm downplaying Madara since I'm saying his move wasn't restricted.

 

[Hakke]

That's only if Limbo can use all of the original's jutsu, but they have only used physical attacks in ALL their appearances.

-Against the Bijuu.
-Against Naruto.
-Against Naruto and Sasuke.
-Against Naruto and Sasuke after getting his other eye.

Let me put it this way:

-Madara said that Limbo clone is "him" existing in another dimension.
-Madara can use Jutsus.
-Thus "him" that is existing in the other dimension should also be able to use Jutsus because nothing suggests otherwise.

Limbo is a clone technique, and in every clone technique, the clones are able to use the original's Jutsus whether it is Shadow Clones, Water Clones, Earth Clones, Wood Clones etc...

saying that a clone can't use Jutsus of the original just because you didn't see it yourself using them, is just like saying that a normal Human can't pee just because you didn't see him yourself pee...

"Equal ability" could easily mean that they are physically and mentally equal with the user. Shadow Clones main advantage is being a clone of the user. Limbo's main advantage is that it's invisible and cannot be touched by anyone w/o Hagoromo's power, meaning there are less than 5 people in the whole NV who can perceive it and overall out of people who have ever existed less than 10 can perceive it. Arguing that Limbo is an RG tech thus it has to be able to do what shadow clones can do doesn't help you when the advantage it has alone makes it a million times better than a shadow clone.

Perceiving this phantom is impossible, the enemies unpreparedness invites disaster.

A person who possesses the Rinnegan can intervene in an adjacent world, an extremely distance world. In that space, a shadow is produced, which everyone who is connected with the current world can't feel. Not only will the Jutsu user gain a duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. Squaring off against a user, counter attack is impossible, going up against this ability will result in one losing against such a powerful enemy

The Rinnegan can shape one shadow. With a complete set of two Rinnegan, it can shape 4.

When fighting the enemy in close combat the shadow will stay away. But after a time the shadow will return.

the DB stated that not only will the Jutsu user gain a duplicate of himself with equal ability, but it will also be invisible. so obviously being invisible is not the only advantage that the Limbo grants. "duplicate" means that they are exactly the same and "equal ability" could mean power. they are basically a copy-paste of the user with same capabilities plus the ability of not being seen.

You really think an invisible and impervious clone that knocked down all 9 Bijuu so fast that they hit the ground at the same time is weaker than a Shadow Clone just because they can't use the original's techniques? :lol

the reason that the clone was able to blitz all the Bijuus was that the user had great physical abilities to begin with. (and who knows, his Limbo could've used Susanoo). let's say that part 1 Naruto had a Limbo clone, do you think that it will also be able to blitz all the Bijuus?

and you are the one who is arguing that Naruto's Shadow Clones are on par with Madara's Limbo clones... and you admitted that if Madara's Limbo clone can access Madara's techs it can wreck Naruto's Shadow Clone but you are saying that it can not and that's like saying that a Shadow Clone of Madara can wreck Naruto's clone but Limbo clone can not...

 

[Mellanoma]

What I'm saying is that Madara never used Limbo enough to provide concrete evidence that all his powers can be used by the shadows albeit the Databook saying they can. Only in that respect is Limbo "restricted" by plot. It isn't however contradicted in the manga, as it's not explicitly said he can't use all of his abilities. In essence, Limbo was restricted by plot in that Madara never showed access to all his ability, but it's not restricted absolutely as in just because he didn't, doesn't mean he can't.



It's so heavily implied that it's literally the only option. In Limbo's first appearance, he tells Black Zetsu that he'll showcase the true power of his Rinnegan and proceeds to cast the technique, thus he obviously knew he had it and what it did. Furthermore, he notes in his head when fighting Naruto and Sasuke that he already knows Limbo's limitations. The shadows are imitations of the original and Madara knew this. Obviously when he was old they wouldn't be able to fight Tailed Beasts.



There's no "fanboying" to do in this argument. You said Limbo was limited and I simply don't see how it was. If anything I'm downplaying Madara since I'm saying his move wasn't restricted.

So we done then?

If its plot restricted then that means it was limited correct? Or do you wish to dance around something we both have stated?

 

[Holy God]

So we done then?

If its plot restricted then that means it was limited correct? Or do you wish to dance around something we both have stated?

We are clearly not arguing for the same thing. You're saying Limbo was limited. I proceeded to ask in what way and you implied it was because Madara didn't have the shadows do everything. What you're arguing is that Madara couldn't do everything because he didn't have experience, and I'm saying that he could have, but his usage was limited by plot, and by that I mean something like Naruto using a Rasengan in some instance when he could have used a much stronger technique.

 

[Jiren]

i would say they have his fighting abilities but they need a command to remain strong. Against one opponent Madara limbo will solo all but against 2 opponent he would have a harder time.

 

[Mellanoma]

We are clearly not arguing for the same thing. You're saying Limbo was limited. I proceeded to ask in what way and you implied it was because Madara didn't have the shadows do everything. What you're arguing is that Madara couldn't do everything because he didn't have experience, and I'm saying that he could have, but his usage was limited by plot, and by that I mean something like Naruto using a Rasengan in some instance when he could have used a much stronger technique.

My Answer was based on speculation. You explained to me that the madara did not specifically say this.
Then you said it was limited by plot and that Madara had experience as an Old man so he knew his limitations.

We both use speculation in understanding the OP yet your speculation is more sound than mine?

My speculation is based on...

IT usage
Divine Tree usage
Lack of Experience

I'm simply arguing two things

He didn't create SUPER powerful limbo simply because he needed that chakra for Divine Tree and IT
OR
He wasn't fully aware of his Limbo capabilities due to lack of experience.

To sit here and try to argue your speculation with my speculation is a waste of time.