Apples n Oranges

[Varrah]

Well, I guess this quells the remnants of those believing Sasuke had Tsukuyomi while possessing the Mangekyō Sharingan. Kakashi awakened the third power Susanoō with only Kamui. [

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]


Seems like all that was needed in the end was the ability to contextualize, specifically the databook. [

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] Now, can we, at least members in the versus section come to consensus that Sasuke, or at least his Mangekyō Sharingan, does not have Tsukuyomi?


If you still believe otherwise, please elaborate.



[ Edit ] — Insert the obvious post(s) complaining about writing: number 217,778,968.​

 

[Varrah]

Not firing shots, just want the debate to be put in ziplock bag.​

 

[ChocolateVanilla]

I agree, but some people will still try to debate this.

 

[Brother Numpsay]

You dont even need EMS to use PS LEEEEL nor legs

 

[Gagster]

Kakashi also awakened PS with only Ms and on his first try.
I think it's safe to say Kakashi > Sasuke now.

 

[Varrah]

You know what this means for Itachi...





















(kidding..)​

 

[Brother Numpsay]

You know what this means for Itachi...





















(kidding..)​

I mean why the hell not, at this point?

 

[Varrah]

Well shit, even with Kakashi's hype the king still solos.

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[ARGUS]

I thought everyone knew that sasuke didnt have tsukuyomi, but instead he had enton,
and madara neither had amaterasu or tsukuyomi

 

[Varrah]

I thought everyone knew that sasuke didnt have tsukuyomi

Unfortunately some people ascribed to the school of thought that Sauke's Mangekyō Sharingan held Tsukuyomi.

but instead he had enton

Specifically Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi.

and madara neither had amaterasu or tsukuyomi

I am hesitant to conclude this: Madara can have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, a variation of the known ocular abilities, or a completely new set of Mangekyō Sharingan powers. The thing is, we'll probably never know them.

 

[Bieber]

This should've been obvious for awhile now. Pretty sure Dimitri (I think it was him) is still going to disagree though.

 

[Varrah]

This should've been obvious for awhile now. Pretty sure Dimitri (I think it was him) is still going to disagree though.

Would be a losing fight.





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[Frikid]

Sasuke already used tsukiyomi

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[ChocolateVanilla]

Sasuke already used tsukiyomi

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There is no guarantee of that being Tsukuyomi.
The whole point of Tsukuyomi is the perception of time being altered in the dreamscape, but the Hachibi happens to wake up Bee by disrupting his chakra, meaning that the genjutsu did not alter time. It could have easily been a Mangekyo Sharingan Genjutsu, which would be more powerful than a basic Sharingan illusion.

 

[Frikid]

There is no guarantee of that being Tsukuyomi.
The whole point of Tsukuyomi is the perception of time being altered in the dreamscape, but the Hachibi happens to wake up Bee by disrupting his chakra, meaning that the genjutsu did not alter time.

This is a wrong assumption.
Only in a tsukiyomi the colors are inverted. The colors were inverted in that genjutsu confirming it to be tsukiyomi.

Itachi went to next level of genjutsu by controlling time within it. Tsukiyomi by default is just a really high level genjutsu but Itachi's tsukiyomi can even control time within the genjutsu , that is the only difference between sasuke and itachi's tsukiyomi.

While sasuke mastered Amaterasu, Itachi mastered Tsukiyomi.

 

[ChocolateVanilla]

This is a wrong assumption.
Only in a tsukiyomi the colors are inverted. The colors were inverted in that genjutsu confirming it to be tsukiyomi.

Itachi went to next level of genjutsu by controlling time within it. Tsukiyomi by default is just a really high level genjutsu but Itachi's tsukiyomi can even control time within the genjutsu , that is the only difference between sasuke and itachi's tsukiyomi.

While sasuke mastered Amaterasu, Itachi mastered Tsukiyomi.

1. What type of claim is that? Just because the colors are inverted, doesn't mean it's the same genjutsu.
2. Tsukuyomi is the only genjutsu shown with dreamscape time control.
3. Again, the only thing that makes Tsukuyomi different from a regular Sharingan Genjutsu is the ability to alter time perception.
4. Sasuke's right eye has the power of Kagutsuchi, while Itachi's doesn't, essentially making him better at manipulating the flames.
Each eye grants one power, while Sasuke's right is Kagutsuchi and his left is Amaterasu.

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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[Gold Lightning]

My gosh, Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi, never did.

Even Danzo and Tobi said Sasuke's sharingan genjutsu was no where near Itachis level.

 

[Frikid]

1. What type of claim is that? Just because the colors are inverted, doesn't mean it's the same genjutsu.
2. Tsukuyomi is the only genjutsu shown with dreamscape time control.
3. Again, the only thing that makes Tsukuyomi different from a regular Sharingan Genjutsu is the ability to alter time perception.
4. Sasuke's right eye has the power of Kagutsuchi, while Itachi's doesn't, essentially making him better at manipulating the flames.
Each eye grants one power, while Sasuke's right is Kagutsuchi and his left is Amaterasu.

Spoiler

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Spoiler

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1.The invertion of colors is a unique trait of Tsukiyomi. It is the only way to determine if the genjutsu is tsukiyomi or not unless the character screams the word tsukiyomi.
If you can show me a genjutsu in which the colors are inverted and it is NOT tsukiyomi , then only this claim can be proven false that "not every genjutsu in which colours are inverted is tsukiyomi ".

2. True.
But the ability to control time within genjutsu does not come automatically with tsukiyomi. Only expert genjutsu users can achieve this feat.

3. This is wrong. Tsukiyomi is a jutsu used to cause a breakdown in one's spirit.

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Itachi's ability to control time within it is his result of his own prowess within the genjutsu.

Danzo said the only difference between itachi and sasuke's "genjutsu " is that sasuke can't control time within it unlike itachi.
It is possible that there are other genjutsu which can control time within it as danzo specifically used the word genjutsu and not tsukiyomi.

4. It was never stated in the manga that one MS can give only one ability.

 

[Rιver]

Fallacy​

Majority of the base seem to hold the notion that some abilities bestowed upon the brothers [Itachi, Sasuke] are their privilege (f.e. Enton: Kagutsuchi, Tsukuyomi etc.). I disagree;

Enton: Kagutsuchi isn't exactly a separate Dōjutsu ability, it's a variation of Amaterasu. Similar to what Itachi with Tsukuyomi, Sasuke is extremely skilled when it comes to handling fire, lightning etc. In fact, he's currently the most versatile Katon & Raiton user in the manga. Danzō already stated that what you need to reveal Tsukuyomi's full potential [e.g. space and time control] was skill and experience [

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] - meaning the extend one can control own's Mangekyō relies purely on skill. It's also implied that Enton: Kagutsuchi has been used before:

1. f.e. the first time he could've hypothetically witnessed Enton: Kagutsuchi, was when Itachi deactivated Amaterasu against Sasuke [

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].

2. Tobirama stated to have seen Enton: Kagutsuchi before (although most likely in inferior form) [

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].

The first time Sasuke deactivated Amaterasu, he used his both Mangekyō; not just this, but his right eye [

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], similar to what Itachi had done. Interestingly, Sasuke also uses his left eye to ignite his target and right eye to modify the flames.

Spoiler

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What we could've seen at the moment Itachi deactivated Amaterasu, was Enton: Kagutsuchi. He only did not have as much skills as Sasuke, therefore couldn't make as big variations as Sasuke did - similar to the principle with Sasuke's hypothetical Tsukuyomi.


Therefore, we can conclude;

1. Itachi could've had access to Enton: Kagutsuchi and manipulate flames in Sasuke's level, if he had enough time.

2. Sasuke may have Tsukuyomi, and it's only not as strong as Itachi's that can manipulate space and time.



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Itachi with Enton solos your fav.

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[Varrah]

@-K-

Fortunately, that notion is made dross by very nature of the Mangekyō Sharingan. Itachi does not possess the doryōku of Keitai Henka, thus; he would have never been able to utilize Enton in the matter Sasuke displays.

@Frikid

Many translators, especially on Naruto-Forums, have translated Danzō’s linguistics as directly comparing Sasuke’s Genjutsu to Itachi’s Tsukuyomi. He first praises Sasuke for placing a Genjutsu upon him, then belittles it by relating it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. The whole statement arose because Danzō saw similarities between the brothers i.e. Amaterasu.