1) Apex began by explaining how
GSB is used as a counter to another ability, not for its destructive power in itself. He explained how Goemon can be absorbed by GSB if it is used, especially if at point blank where Minato won't be able to form seals in time (no scans to support his seal speed being slower than GSB, though), and if it were to absorb Goemon, it would grow outside of the range of the S/T barrier. He also explained how Minato lacks intel on GSB being able to absorb chakra, which will prevent him from reacting to it properly.
Apex refuted KCN's arguments for Minato/toads dodging GSB by explaining how
the jutsu wouldn't be used for that purpose, which makes sense as explained above.
2) Regarding Water Dome, Apex explained how the usage of toads aren't a sufficient counter to the jutsu. He proved that their size is negligeable in comparison to the mountain-sized dome with scans (and by comparing it to Ponta), and how shark summons (in either Suiton or physical form, who will be able to swim better/breathe underwater giving them an advantage) can overwhelm them to the point where they are finished off by their attacks or simply drown as toads cannot breathe underwater. And, since Minato's movements are restricted underwater, as KCN acknowledged in his first post, Kisame will be able to chase him and effectively and bring the dome with him should he try to escape, with another option being that he can send sharks after him.
He also explained Kisame's large chakra reserves and how if it comes down to a back-and-forth style battle of attrition, Kisame will trump Minato as he can force him to use chakra taxing techniques to escape from bad situations within the Dome.
3) Apex explained how performing a ritual is needed to enter SM, as why would Jiraiya waste an entire chapter fighting Pain to specifically summon Ma and Pa to his shoulders, instead of just having them appear on the ground and hop up on him? I agree that this proves a ritual is necessary based on the scans shown thus far, unless KCN counters it later.
He also explained that the interview with Kishimoto isn't sufficient evidence to support a contract with Bunta being a contract with Ma/Pa, as the interview was done
before they were ever shown, which, coupled with his argumentation regarding Jiraiya/etc, proves that a ritual must be done to summon Ma and Pa, which won't be be able to occur against Kisame.
4) Regarding CQC, Apex stated that Kisame can make use of knowing of the famous "Yellow Flash" to anticipate Minato's speed, and counter by using as many Water Clones as he sees fit (via his large chakra reserves) which will trap Minato in the Suiro upon contact. If Minato teleports out, he'll have to go under the Water Shockwave due to sunken kunai, which will force him to deal with the sharks, all the while being deprived of oxygen.
Apex also explained that if Minato makes clones to deal with Kisame's clones, Kisame will be able to employ the same strategy all the while
outplaying him due to his larger chakra reserves.
5) Apex explained how Ma/Pa won't be able to be summoned via the ritual (which was previously proven necessary) due to Kisame's massive AoE attacks.
6) Regarding Kisame's durability, Apex made a solid argument regarding how he was able to handle Bee, how that relates to the difference in strength between tails, etc. I'm not going to get into it too much but essentially it sufficiently serves as a basis for claiming a kana won't hurt Kisame. With regards to Rasengan, Apex stated that it will get absorbed by Samehada,
but didn't provide a scan to explain that. With Minato's speed as showcased by KCN with Flying Raijin, etc, is Samehada really going to be able to intercept it before it makes contact? I'm not saying it can't, but there was a lack of proof to show it can.
7) Other important points in this post were how spikes can protrude from the Samehada-fused Kisame if Minato tries to tag him/teleport to him, how fusing changes his body (and will make the tag disappear? wasn't actually stated). He also explained how Frog Song wouldn't work if Ma/Pa were summoned, as Kisame in his shark state has no outer ears.
KCN's Second Post
1) KCN started off by saying GSB will only be a viable counter once to Goemon, as afterwards Minato will have deduced its mechanics and then intercept it with an S/T barrier for any other attempts to use it. However, again, that scan with Bunta jumping away from Shukaku's attack isn't enough to prove he can evade GSB, IMO. There needs to be some sort of comparison with GSB itself in there. What if GSB has a bigger AoE than what Bunta covered in that jump? I agree with Minato being able to evade it, but as for the toads? I'm not convinced.
KCN said GSB absorbing at close range won't be an issue, as the "sharks are summoned vertically at first", giving Minato ample to distance to make use of his S/T barrier. But what does GSB have to do with sharks being dispersed, etc? GSB is merely one single shark. I don't understand this point.
Regarding GSB outgrowing the S/T barrier, I agree that the barrier is formed in correlation with the jutsu's size. So as long as Minato is able to use it after GSB absorbs Goemon, then he can warp it (because if he uses it before, GSB will grow beyond the size of the barrier that was originally formed by the smaller GSB). KCN also said Minato will be able to form handseals in time, citing when he formed them in one panel,
intercepting a TBB which is much faster, which was proven sufficiently.
2) KCN explained how Minato's chakra reserves are very high, to counter what Apex was seemingly insinuating with his explanation of how high Kisame's reserves are.
He explained how the toads would be able to deal with the sharks due to their mass, weaponry, etc, and made a great point about how they can
release oil into the Dome to impair the sharks navigation, giving them enough time to make their escape.
3) One of the most confusing parts of this debate was the whole "ritual" issue. Anyways, from what KCN established here, Minato definitely had contact with Ma/Pa and should be able to summon them (backing up the Kishimoto interview with a
Databook page). For now, I'll give this argument to KCN unless Apex counters it in his next post.
4) KCN said that "manga knowledge" means Kisame knows nothing on Minato, as he's
never shown to have any knowledge on him. Don't necessarily agree with that, but the point goes to KCN unless Apex says something about it.
KCN said that Minato won't be caught in the Suiro, as he is much faster than anyone in Team Gai who was caught by it in the first place, which makes sense. KCN further explained that Minato can
blitz Kisame's clones by scattering kunai, which I agree with. However, where is the scan that backs up Water Clones being 1/10 of the original's power? Regardless, I agree that the clones wouldn't be an issue for Minato so far in a CQC scenario.
5) KCN attempted to refute Apex's claims of Kisame's durability, with his main argument being that strength /=/ durability, but rather Kisame going toe-to-toe with Bee is testament to his resilience and strength. That's a bit shaky, as by definition durability isn't all that different from resilience, but I understand KCN's point and it makes sense. However, KCN didn't exactly prove that when Kisame clashed with Bee, absorbing chakra nullified the impact.
Anyways, I ignored the part where KCN brought up a post that Apex made in another thread, as it has 0 relevance to the topic at hand. Regardless, KCN did make a good case for Minato being able to put a dent in Kisame, as Samehada's spikes were able to pierce him.
6) Made a great point about how
fusing with Samehada on land is inefficient and would majorly restrict Kisame's movements, successfully establishing that
the fusion and Water Dome go hand-in-hand.
7) KCN proved that Frog Song would affect Kisame in his fused state, as sharks do indeed have ears and their hearing is much better than that of humans. Also, he explained how Frog Song cannot be absorbed, as Preta Path didn't do so during the Jiraiya fight, successfully proving that Frog Song will definitely work on Kisame (should Ma and Pa be able to be summoned to perform it, which is looking right now as if they can).
8) KCN went on to say that
Bunta as a substitute for the regular oil used in Goemon will allow it to get much bigger, and contest with Kisame's massive AoE, which I agree with. However, as for his argument regarding Goemon evaporating the water, Apex's point still seems to hold. The water needs to reach that temperature first, and won't be gone right away, leaving Kisame time to counter.
9) KCN explained how Minato's Shunshin will suffice to blitz Kisame's clones (making a solid
comparison to how Sasuke blitzed Zabuza's clones in Part 1), and further established his advantage in a CQC scenario. However, there is one flaw in the argument. KCN said minute can switch to sensor mode to anticipate the arrival of the sharks if Kisame sends them from below... but how will Minato
"anticipate" to anticipate? Is he going to switch into sensor mode prior to the sharks being sent out? If so, how? This wasn't properly explained. Regardless, KCN's other points still hold.
10) KCN concluded by further establishing
Minato's advantage in CQC, and how Kisame
engages in it in all his fights, again stating that manga intel means Kisame knows nothing, and therefore he won't take the precautions conveyed by Apex.
Apex's Second Post
1) Apex began by refuting KCN's claim that GSB would only work once. But here is the issue: KCN didn't say Kisame could only
use the tech once, he said the
way in which it is used (to counter) would only work once, before Minato figures out how it works and goes to intercept it with his S/T barrier. Regardless, Apex went on to argue that only one boss toad would ever be present, and that GSB should be manoeuvrable given its smaller variants feats, which yes, should technically be possible, but is still a bit shaky as a point. Scans should have been provided of some other jutsu retaining its weaker variants feats to back it up.
Either way, Apex went on to prove that GSB won't be dodged by the toads, explaining how the entirety of Hirudora's force comes from its momentum and not its mass, considering it was emphasized to be solely air pressure in the manga. This complies with the infamous F=ma rule (the force of an object is equal to its mass times its acceleration, in this case Hirudora was able to smack down Madara's v3 not due to its mass, but due to its momentum/acceleration). This is sufficient proof to convince me that
toads cannot dodge GSB.
2) Apex dismissed KCN's point about GSB not working at point blank because of "dispersion", which I had commented on in his post analysis. He went on to say that Minato's hand seal speed isn't fast enough for a counterattack, citing that 1 panel's worth of time isn't enough indication of the actual time elapsed (should have elaborated a bit more, but maybe that's just me), and that Minato
started forming the seals when the TBB was being formed, not when it was being propelled, and he won't have the time to do that against a GSB being used as a counter, which is much harder to react to, etc. I agree with this to the extent that Minato won't be able to stop a GSB prior to it absorbing Goemon, but still, from the points KCN made, it can still be said that he can put up a barrier so it intercepts after the absorption occurs, IMO.
3) Apex did a good job of explaining that Kisame's reserves are above Minato's, and through the counters that KCN was proposing to Apex's strategies (comparing them to what was done when he was protecting the village), proved that if it comes down to a back-and-forth, spamming-type battle, Kisame will come out on top.
Regarding the Water Dome, Apex explained that toads using oil as a means to hinder Kisame and the sharks navigation won't work, as Kisame can still sense their presence within the dome, and Suiton sharks should be unaffected by the oil. He went on to explain that sharks can deal with the toads sufficiently while Kisame himself, being a better swimmer than Minato, will undoubtedly catch up with him if needed, bringing the Dome with him, reminding that Minato cannot breathe underwater and will drown if he cannot get out quickly, which IMO Apex established.
4) Apex went on to refute KCN's claim that a ritual isn't necessary to summon Ma/Pa, again referring to Jiraiya, but also adding in how Minato didn't summon them during the WA, even though it should have been possible and advantageous for him to do so. Now, it seems that a ritual is indeed needed to summon Ma/Pa, based on what was said in this debate.
5) Regarding manga knowledge, Apex made a very strong argument that Kisame would undoubtedly know of Minato, as he was in Konoha and Minato's face is on the monument, also emphasizing that he knew who Kakashi was on sight. This definitely proves that Kisame should have the most basic knowledge of Minato and his speed, which was known throughout the world (which KCN even acknowledged in his own post).
6) In terms of the whole durability argument, Apex made good points regarding what it exactly means to be "durable", discussing Ay's Lariat, Tsunade, etc. After everything that was showcased in the debate, it's clear that Kisame's durability is much better than that of other ninja.
7) Regarding Kisame's ability to react to Minato's Shunshin speed, Apex brought up the fact that Kisame reacted to v1 Bee and 6G Gai, which seemingly means he should be able to do so for Minato's Shunshin unless feats are/were brought up to contradict it (which they were not). Apex also explained how Kisame can ensure none of Minato's kunai get close to him, by using clones and kunai of his own. While I don't necessarily agree, the argument holds as KCN never effectively addressed it.
8) Apex explained how Kisame's clones cannot be compared with Zabuza's clones, mainly due to the usefulness of Suiro, and (coupled with points above) effectively countering KCN's hypothetical parallel of Sasuke blitzing Zabuza clones with Minato blitzing Kisame clones in the same fashion.
But I believe Kisame could whip blonde boys ass.
