Analyzing a certain off-panel battle

[Beans2]

Madara vs Onoki and Mu

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So, what really happened here? How was Madara able to defeat the Tsuchikages so easily, while holding back? Well first of all, pretend you never watched the anime episode - because that's wrong. In the anime, Madara used Susano'o to defeat Mu and Onoki.

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But we know that this is impossible, since Onoki was surprised when he saw Madara had the Mangekyou Sharingan - some 80 years after this battle.

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So that means that Madara defeated them with something other than Susano'o. What does that leave? Katons and genjutsu. In my opinion, I think he used both. There's lots of evidence to suggest that Onoki was caught in a genjutsu. Firstly, there's this scan:

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Aoba insists that Yamato will not give up intel easily, but Onoki explains how with Madara's eye techniques, it's over - and by that he was probably implying that once Madara catches Yamato under genjutsu, he will be able to extract intel from him like other sharingan users do:

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. The way Onoki is talking to Aoba makes it sound like he is speaking from experience. (This is the Viz translation by the way.

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is the scan you will find on this website.)

This would explain why Onoki was on guard the whole time in his battle against Madara for genjutsu and was extremely cautious about looking into Madara's eyes:

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It also explains why he was so prepared to break his teammates out of genjtusu:

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In the above scan, Madara even says "your experience is beginning to show itself." Experience against Madara himself, of course! But, there are signs of battle and Onoki seems to be covered in what could be burns:

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So my guess is that Madara used a fire technique as well. Why were Onoki and Mu not killed by the flames and injured instead? A possible answer:

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We know Onoki can make earth golems, as he did against Edo Madara. So him (or maybe Mu as well, if he was capable of the same technique) used a golem to shield themselves, but did not escape the full brunt of the damage.

So to answer some questions:

Why didn't Mu just go invisible so Madara wouldn't know where to target?

Madara's fire jutsu are huge, (juubi sized), Mu wouldn't be able to escape the AoE even if he were to go invisible and try to dodge.

Why didn't the duo just kill him with jinton?

Onoki had most likely not even learned jinton yet, being as young as he was. Keep in mind this is before Mu was even the Tsuchikage, and Onoki was still just a kid...Mu probably still knew the technique, but couldn't utilize it correctly perhaps? Evidence of jinton usage is marked by clean, cut holes in the surrounding location

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, but we see none of it in the battlefield, leading me to believe jinton was not used at all. Besides, if Madara had seen a technique of that caliber used against him, he most likely would have taken them much more seriously and used his Mangekyou Sharingan.

Bottom lines are,

1. Neither Mu nor Onoki were at full power and probably did not use jinton
2. Madara only used 3T against them, not Mangekyou techs
3. Signs of battle and evidence from later statements strongly suggest that Madara spat out a large katon, and then caught Onoki in a genjutsu

 

[Blunt]

Decent thread, I can agree.

 

[A$AP Wap]

LOL! You must be registered for see images OT: Madara had to have used Susano'o though. Madara says something about Oonoki stopping his Susano'o which means Oonoki might of faced it in their first fight like how he might of faced Genjutsu in their first fight. Just throwing that out there.[SUB] You must be registered for see images [/SUB]

 

[gutSy Sage]

Madara solos' s them without eyes. Neg diff

 

[Akatsuki wise guy]

I'm sure he used Susanoo.

Onoki was surprised to see his MS but he should have already known given it's common knowledge Madara had special eyes. And he seemed to act like PS was the only susanoo he never saw.

 

[Beans2]

LOL! You must be registered for see images OT: Madara had to have used Susano'o though. Madara says something about Oonoki stopping his Susano'o which means Oonoki might of faced it in their first fight like how he might of faced Genjutsu in their first fight. Just throwing that out there.[SUB] You must be registered for see images [/SUB]

That's not evidence. Onoki doesn't necessarily have to fight against a Susano'o to guess that a weighted rock technique can stop it. Plus Onoki had been fighting Madara for some time before that, and he also faced Sasuke at the kage summit (another MS user.)

 

[A$AP Wap]

That's not evidence. Onoki doesn't necessarily have to fight against a Susano'o to guess that a weighted rock technique can stop it. Plus Onoki had been fighting Madara for some time before that, and he also faced Sasuke at the kage summit (another MS user.)

When he fought Sasuke, Oonoki Jinton Blitzed him even before he could pull out a Susano'o. And it is evidence because the same can be said about Oonoki snapping Raikage out of Madara's Genjutsu. He could only counter those two of Madara's techniques because he had experience fighting them.[SUB] You must be registered for see images [/SUB]

 

[Beans2]

When he fought Sasuke, Oonoki Jinton Blitzed him even before he could pull out a Susano'o. And it is evidence because the same can be said about Oonoki snapping Raikage out of Madara's Genjutsu. He could only counter those two of Madara's techniques because he had experience fighting them.[SUB] You must be registered for see images [/SUB]

And your point..? Onoki countered Madara's meteor, even though he had never seen it in use before.

 

[JayPaperGod]

Problem: in the scan you posted of the aforementioned battle, Madara is using the EMS. Not any techs, but still, his eyes display the pattern.

 

[legarcon]

well even if Mu turn invisible madara can see chakra and its flow as little as it may be because he posseses the sharingan, so against someone with a sharingan going invisible is useless

 

[Madarauchiwa]

When he fought Sasuke, Oonoki Jinton Blitzed him even before he could pull out a Susano'o. And it is evidence because the same can be said about Oonoki snapping Raikage out of Madara's Genjutsu. He could only counter those two of Madara's techniques because he had experience fighting them.[SUB] You must be registered for see images [/SUB]

oonoki got nerfed so hardcore. i feel so bad for him. he went form being able to jinton blitz like it was nothing to getting kicked around

 

[iConquer]

The only way for Mu and Oonoki survived is if MU uses his invisibility with Oonoki to escape. They could have been long dead if they didn't abandoned the battle.

 

[spade3dg]

I think he was shocked because of an edo still having the eyes. Everyone knew he had MS. He awakened it before the first village was formed. He used it to control Kurama during the fight. Madara having MS is very well publicized.

Nice theory though. Madara beat them both with his super saiyan swagger

 

[KingHashirama]

Notice that Onoki knew of Susanoo , he had to see it somewhere...=p.

Also techniques like Jinton really are nothing big to MAdara..

 

[spade3dg]

Notice that Onoki knew of Susanoo , he had to see it somewhere...=p.

Also techniques like Jinton really are nothing big to MAdara..

Jinton would still kill Madara. The only reason he survived was because of preta path and being an edo.

Regular ems madara can't take a jinton