ImNoOne
Jōnin Strategist 🧠
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Note: I posted this thread before but it was lost for some reason so I'm posting it again as I got no message indicating that it was due to a Mod deleting it.
This was what a respected member said about the thread before it got deleted:
Lately we've seen Hashirama>Hiruzen thread's sprout out like mushrooms in the Base. Firstly I'd like to point out that this is not exclusive to NB. In fact a lot of other forums are spammed with the same sort of threads. And in every single one it seems there are two different blocks of opinion. I won't go over the actual out come of a Hiruzen vs Hashirama fight, as we have no data to sort that out. I will however try to resume some ideas that I have read across many threads, which when summed seem to explain fairly well what is what.
Firstly I'd like you to make a mental exercise and try to compare two different time frames in Naruto series.
Naruto Series Part 1:
Naruto Shippudden (Naruto Series Part 2)
Conclusion:
Analyzing all this data we can definitely conclude that what changed from was not so much that people in general got like a million times stronger but that Kishi adapted the scale of powers in order to make things more interesting. So if we were to evaluate two characters, one presented in part 1 and the other presented in part 2 we need to take that into consideration as the ones that did transit from on to the other don't seem to be that weaker, in term of scale of power, than those who are only presented in part 2.
Back to Hiruzen vs Hashirama:
Resuming, we see that Kishi did in fact evolved from part 1 to part 2 but not in terms of story but in terms of style. He made Narutoverse a more overkill world that he portrayed it in part 1, but it's still the same universe.
Ence when we think about Hiruzen and Hashirama we have to take all this into consideration.
Lastly on a brief note.
Note that Kabuto said "anymore", implying that once there were. Specifically we can point the single proven example, Hiruzen.
Hope this analysis brings makes it clear, although I have no faith it will end the issue I hope some people might be clarified about this issue.
This was what a respected member said about the thread before it got deleted:
Hopefully it's enough to encourage you to read it all.
Lately we've seen Hashirama>Hiruzen thread's sprout out like mushrooms in the Base. Firstly I'd like to point out that this is not exclusive to NB. In fact a lot of other forums are spammed with the same sort of threads. And in every single one it seems there are two different blocks of opinion. I won't go over the actual out come of a Hiruzen vs Hashirama fight, as we have no data to sort that out. I will however try to resume some ideas that I have read across many threads, which when summed seem to explain fairly well what is what.
Firstly I'd like you to make a mental exercise and try to compare two different time frames in Naruto series.
Naruto Series Part 1:
This takes place since Naruto, Sasuke and their generation graduated from the academy until the battle of the valley of the end. The main plot unravels in a time after the 1st, 2nd, 4th Hokages, Madara, Muu, Hanzo, etc were all long dead. So their feats had already been played and the scale of power had already been high in their time.
We also can induce that during this time characters like Nagato, Danzo, 4th Raikage, Tsushikage, Kisame, Darui just to name a few, were alive and their feats had been recorded and we must assume that a fairly well informed shinobi would at least know of the scale of their powers.
We should also take into consideration that the Leaf Village was considered to be the strongest in that period. And that Hiruzen was considered the strongest in the village, ence why he was still Hokage, otherwise he would have delegated the tittle to someone stronger like he did with Minato.
When we sum up all of these we must assume that Hiruzen power was in line to that of all the known characters alive that time. In fact from all the fights and characters that are introduced up until the Invasion of the Leaf Arc, by Orochimaru. The characters are in line with what we've seen from Orochimaru's fight with Hiruzen. Remember the scale of power that is given to Zabuza in his fight against Kakashi, we were all in awe to see the water dragon, that took 12 hand signs to summon. And yet Hiruzen easily defended against a suitor technique that was superior to that one.
We also can induce that during this time characters like Nagato, Danzo, 4th Raikage, Tsushikage, Kisame, Darui just to name a few, were alive and their feats had been recorded and we must assume that a fairly well informed shinobi would at least know of the scale of their powers.
We should also take into consideration that the Leaf Village was considered to be the strongest in that period. And that Hiruzen was considered the strongest in the village, ence why he was still Hokage, otherwise he would have delegated the tittle to someone stronger like he did with Minato.
When we sum up all of these we must assume that Hiruzen power was in line to that of all the known characters alive that time. In fact from all the fights and characters that are introduced up until the Invasion of the Leaf Arc, by Orochimaru. The characters are in line with what we've seen from Orochimaru's fight with Hiruzen. Remember the scale of power that is given to Zabuza in his fight against Kakashi, we were all in awe to see the water dragon, that took 12 hand signs to summon. And yet Hiruzen easily defended against a suitor technique that was superior to that one.
Naruto Shippudden (Naruto Series Part 2)
During this series we are introduced to many characters that were alive during the first series, but we never received any sort of information telling that all of them received a massive upgrade on their abilities completely changing the scale of power within the time gap of 3 years that exists between the first part and the second. And yet from the very first chapter up till now we have seen a scale of power that we had never dreamed in part one.
A good example of this is the fight between Orochimaru and Naruto, when Naruto goes berserk with 4 tails out. In this fight we saw Orochimaru summoning massive gates, transforming into a monster, using Kusanang Sword like a demon, pulling out incredible moves and speed, and holding his own against a four tailed cloak Naruto.
Then Itachi versus Sasuke; we were introduced to Orochimaru transforming himself into a massive Hydra.
All of this weren't techniques he had recently acquired. He had them mastered so we can assume he had them for quite a while. And yet he didn't used them against Hiruzen, why?
What this shows is simple. In part 1 Kishi was showing a complete different scale of powers but of the one he shows us now in part 2. But the fact still remains that the relation between characters in terms of power was still the same in both parts. We've seen Kakashi use a lot of techniques in shippudden that he did not in Part 1, yet he still had troubles against Zabuza who was dead for 3+ years so he surely didn't get stronger.
Also take into consideration that during part one we had entire pages with people making hand signs, every time someone made a technique we would see them making hand signs. In shippudden we don't get that as often yet that doesn't mean that shinobi no longer need hand signs to their techniques is just that Kishi no longer bothers to draw them because he knows that we know they are needed. Actually I believe he doesn't even consider that as an important thing in contrast with how we saw that in part one where Kakashi was praised for his sharingan as it enabled him to understand others techniques because he could see the hand signs, and Kishi made sure to let us know that because at that time it was important. Now, not so much.
There is a factor that acts like a mist to this universe change of scale on powers between part 1 and part 2. And that is that for the most part, part one was centered in inexperienced (out of the academy) children that during the series and then in Shippudden have grown to become fairly powerful, ecelent example would be Naruto and Sasuke, but the same happened to pretty much of all of them. This puts us on the evolution mind set. They are getting better, yet for the majority of characters these years didn't brought that big of a change because they were all already mature and experienced shinobi.
A good example of this is the fight between Orochimaru and Naruto, when Naruto goes berserk with 4 tails out. In this fight we saw Orochimaru summoning massive gates, transforming into a monster, using Kusanang Sword like a demon, pulling out incredible moves and speed, and holding his own against a four tailed cloak Naruto.
Then Itachi versus Sasuke; we were introduced to Orochimaru transforming himself into a massive Hydra.
All of this weren't techniques he had recently acquired. He had them mastered so we can assume he had them for quite a while. And yet he didn't used them against Hiruzen, why?
What this shows is simple. In part 1 Kishi was showing a complete different scale of powers but of the one he shows us now in part 2. But the fact still remains that the relation between characters in terms of power was still the same in both parts. We've seen Kakashi use a lot of techniques in shippudden that he did not in Part 1, yet he still had troubles against Zabuza who was dead for 3+ years so he surely didn't get stronger.
Also take into consideration that during part one we had entire pages with people making hand signs, every time someone made a technique we would see them making hand signs. In shippudden we don't get that as often yet that doesn't mean that shinobi no longer need hand signs to their techniques is just that Kishi no longer bothers to draw them because he knows that we know they are needed. Actually I believe he doesn't even consider that as an important thing in contrast with how we saw that in part one where Kakashi was praised for his sharingan as it enabled him to understand others techniques because he could see the hand signs, and Kishi made sure to let us know that because at that time it was important. Now, not so much.
There is a factor that acts like a mist to this universe change of scale on powers between part 1 and part 2. And that is that for the most part, part one was centered in inexperienced (out of the academy) children that during the series and then in Shippudden have grown to become fairly powerful, ecelent example would be Naruto and Sasuke, but the same happened to pretty much of all of them. This puts us on the evolution mind set. They are getting better, yet for the majority of characters these years didn't brought that big of a change because they were all already mature and experienced shinobi.
Conclusion:
Analyzing all this data we can definitely conclude that what changed from was not so much that people in general got like a million times stronger but that Kishi adapted the scale of powers in order to make things more interesting. So if we were to evaluate two characters, one presented in part 1 and the other presented in part 2 we need to take that into consideration as the ones that did transit from on to the other don't seem to be that weaker, in term of scale of power, than those who are only presented in part 2.
Back to Hiruzen vs Hashirama:
Hashirama was presented in part one as being on the same scale of power as Hiruzen. And later on is brought to us by Madara as being in a different scale of power which means that Hiruzen would be in the same scale of power if he was to be shown now in Shippudden. Bare in mind that Kabuto's Edo Tensei is better than Orochimaru's. But be aware that the improvement on the technique has to do with only two factors; control and quantity. Not quality. The quality of the eco tensei must rely on the one being summoned. Kabuto perfected the technique by being able to complete suppress the Edo'ed minds and by being able to control a much bigger number of Edos at a given time. Never is stated in the manga that he's technique empowered the Edos more than Orochimaru's did.
Resuming, we see that Kishi did in fact evolved from part 1 to part 2 but not in terms of story but in terms of style. He made Narutoverse a more overkill world that he portrayed it in part 1, but it's still the same universe.
Ence when we think about Hiruzen and Hashirama we have to take all this into consideration.
Lastly on a brief note.
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Note that Kabuto said "anymore", implying that once there were. Specifically we can point the single proven example, Hiruzen.
