Ryuu..
Kage in the Making 👑
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Let's look and see what the manga and databooks say about who the strongest hokage is.
Quite clearly, we can see Iruka say that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage. Clearly.
Page 265: "The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi'." (「三代目は歴代火影の中でも最強と� �� �� ��われ、„忍の神”と謳われたこ� � �も 。」, "Sandaime wa rekidai Hokage no naka demo saikyō to iware, 'Shinobi no Kami' to utawareta koto mo")
Hashirama:
"Consider him a fairy tale like the Rikudo Sennin".
What does this mean? It means people could not believe there was a shinobi so powerful. It doesn't mean he was as strong as or anywhere near the So6P's level.
If Hiruzen was said to be the strongest Hokage (which was clearly and undeniably stated in the manga), it just means: So6P > Hiruzen > Hashirama. This goes nicely with his title as "God of Shinobi" but people always choose to ignore or disregard this title. He knew so many techniques, but was labelled "God of Shinobi". Why?
Kabuto then goes onto say:
"There aren't ninjas on the same level of the first Hokage Hashirama Senju anymore. "
What does this mean? Key word in this statement is 'ANYMORE' - Why is it the key word? Because it implies that there WERE people at his level - Namely, Hiruzen in his prime (who was clearly and undeniably stated in the manga as being the strongest hokage.
Here's a page people love to bring up:
All this shows is that he was the strongest at that time. It doesn't take into account all the shinobi who came after that time, including Hiruzen. Unless you're suggesting people of that time could see into the future?
People seem to ignore the fact that Hiruzen defeated both the first and second Hokages at age 69, yonks after his prime years. So already, even if you have your suspicions about that fight, you were not watching the Hiruzen who was famed for his strength. Another point people try to use is that that fight didn't reflect the true powers of Hashirama and Tobirama (that they were nerfed), even though Orochimaru perfect Edo Tensei (the same level as Kabuto's). That is true. The power levels in part 1 & 2 were different so clearly it just didn't reflect Hiruzen's ability fairly either. Moreover, Hiruzen defeated them in his old age - He was strongest in his prime (which was clearly and undeniably stated in the manga).
'Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure.'
So even though he defeated the previous two Hokages, his own summoning labelled him as POOR COMPARED TO HIS PRIME.
KEY POINT: People ASSUME that Kishi has changed his mind in regards to who is the strongest or the plot. Do you have Proof? Evidence? Anything? Or just your subjective, opinionated thoughts? Because when debating about these kind of things, objective FACTS are the only things which have any value.
Lets have a quick peak at the data book entries:
These words are clear and impossible to misinterperet.
In the databook, he achieved 5's in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu. FACT. All he is missing is speed, stamina, and strength which declined greatly with age, as mentioned by himself, orochimaru and Enma.
Some people have also got it in their head that Minato could be the strongest Hokage. Let's take a look:
What's important here is that these words are not clear and are easily interpreted differently by lots of people. It is not clear as with Hiruzen who was clearly stated as the strongest Hokage. But let's take a look nonetheless. What does unrivalled mean? Look at it this way:
If you are the best basketball player in 2012, does that mean your rival is Michael Jordan (who retired in 2003)? No. Your rival will be another awsome basketball player who also plays in 2012. With Minato, does him being unrivalled suggest no shinobi ever were on his level? Or does it suggest no shinobi DURING his time were on his level? Prime Hiruzen was not during his time. As I said, this can be interpreted in many ways, but i'm sure 90% of sane people will realise that Minato was not stated as the strongest Hokage.
You can talk all day about 'Hiruzen can't beat him', 'Hiruzen can't counter this', but at the end of the day, these are just your opinion. we must look at FACTS in the databook and manga. You don't need to see Hiruzen in his prime if the manga states he was the strongest. Unless you believe the manga is wrong?
This isn't about 'Hiruzen (prime) can defeat Hashirama' or 'Hiruzen (prime) can defeat Itachi'. This is not a vs thread. It is to point out that, at this current moment in time, the author has clearly and undeniably hyped Hiruzen to be the strongest Hokage. You cannot argue with the author.
Let me just say that its Kishimoto himself that has given Hiruzen the reputation he has, through statements in the manga. And you can't claim that the creator of the Narutoverse is wrong, his word is law, he is god in that world. When Kishimoto says "he is this", no-one can say anything against it. There are very few characters in the whole manga that have been given a reputation even close to Hiruzens, by Kishimoto. You can argue all you like about 'I wanna see feats', but if the author himself has shown Hiruzen to be the strongest Hokage in the manga through word alone this cannot be argued with.
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Hashirama:
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What does this mean? It means people could not believe there was a shinobi so powerful. It doesn't mean he was as strong as or anywhere near the So6P's level.
If Hiruzen was said to be the strongest Hokage (which was clearly and undeniably stated in the manga), it just means: So6P > Hiruzen > Hashirama. This goes nicely with his title as "God of Shinobi" but people always choose to ignore or disregard this title. He knew so many techniques, but was labelled "God of Shinobi". Why?
Kabuto then goes onto say:
"There aren't ninjas on the same level of the first Hokage Hashirama Senju anymore. "
What does this mean? Key word in this statement is 'ANYMORE' - Why is it the key word? Because it implies that there WERE people at his level - Namely, Hiruzen in his prime (who was clearly and undeniably stated in the manga as being the strongest hokage.
Here's a page people love to bring up:
You must be registered for see images
People seem to ignore the fact that Hiruzen defeated both the first and second Hokages at age 69, yonks after his prime years. So already, even if you have your suspicions about that fight, you were not watching the Hiruzen who was famed for his strength. Another point people try to use is that that fight didn't reflect the true powers of Hashirama and Tobirama (that they were nerfed), even though Orochimaru perfect Edo Tensei (the same level as Kabuto's). That is true. The power levels in part 1 & 2 were different so clearly it just didn't reflect Hiruzen's ability fairly either. Moreover, Hiruzen defeated them in his old age - He was strongest in his prime (which was clearly and undeniably stated in the manga).
'Enma commented on his battle with Orochimaru, saying that it was "miserable" compared to his prime, even though he had clearly been able to hold his own against Orochimaru and two former Hokage without losing his composure.'
So even though he defeated the previous two Hokages, his own summoning labelled him as POOR COMPARED TO HIS PRIME.
KEY POINT: People ASSUME that Kishi has changed his mind in regards to who is the strongest or the plot. Do you have Proof? Evidence? Anything? Or just your subjective, opinionated thoughts? Because when debating about these kind of things, objective FACTS are the only things which have any value.
Lets have a quick peak at the data book entries:
Even if you point out that Iruka could have some bias or that characters that have stated this don't know anything, Kishimoto himself says in every databook that Hiruzen in his prime was the most powerful Hokage. In the first databook alone, this is stated at least three times:
Page 117: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history." (「„プロフェッサー”と呼ばれたほ� �� ��の天才忍者であり、歴代最強の� �影 として皆の尊敬を集め続ける。」, "'Purofessā' to yobareta hodo no tensai ninja de ari, rekidai saikyō no Hokage toshite mina no sonkei o atsume tsuzukeru")
Page 119: "'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect." (「„歴代最強”„天才”など、三代� �� ��火影を形容する言葉は賞賛に満� �て いる。」, "'Rekidai saikyō' 'tensai' nado, Sandaime Hokage o keiyōsuru kotoba wa shōsan ni michite iru.")
Page 265: "The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi'." (「三代目は歴代火影の中でも最強と� �� ��われ、„忍の神”と謳われたこ� �も 。」, "Sandaime wa rekidai Hokage no naka demo saikyō to iware, 'Shinobi no Kami' to utawareta koto mo")
Being old=/= being irrelevant. Both the 2nd AND the 3rd databook state the same thing.
Page 117: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history." (「„プロフェッサー”と呼ばれたほ� �� ��の天才忍者であり、歴代最強の� �影 として皆の尊敬を集め続ける。」, "'Purofessā' to yobareta hodo no tensai ninja de ari, rekidai saikyō no Hokage toshite mina no sonkei o atsume tsuzukeru")
Page 119: "'Strongest in history', 'genius', et cetera, the words used to describe the Third Hokage are filled with respect." (「„歴代最強”„天才”など、三代� �� ��火影を形容する言葉は賞賛に満� �て いる。」, "'Rekidai saikyō' 'tensai' nado, Sandaime Hokage o keiyōsuru kotoba wa shōsan ni michite iru.")
Page 265: "The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi'." (「三代目は歴代火影の中でも最強と� �� ��われ、„忍の神”と謳われたこ� �も 。」, "Sandaime wa rekidai Hokage no naka demo saikyō to iware, 'Shinobi no Kami' to utawareta koto mo")
Being old=/= being irrelevant. Both the 2nd AND the 3rd databook state the same thing.
In the databook, he achieved 5's in Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu. FACT. All he is missing is speed, stamina, and strength which declined greatly with age, as mentioned by himself, orochimaru and Enma.
Some people have also got it in their head that Minato could be the strongest Hokage. Let's take a look:
You must be registered for see images
If you are the best basketball player in 2012, does that mean your rival is Michael Jordan (who retired in 2003)? No. Your rival will be another awsome basketball player who also plays in 2012. With Minato, does him being unrivalled suggest no shinobi ever were on his level? Or does it suggest no shinobi DURING his time were on his level? Prime Hiruzen was not during his time. As I said, this can be interpreted in many ways, but i'm sure 90% of sane people will realise that Minato was not stated as the strongest Hokage.
You can talk all day about 'Hiruzen can't beat him', 'Hiruzen can't counter this', but at the end of the day, these are just your opinion. we must look at FACTS in the databook and manga. You don't need to see Hiruzen in his prime if the manga states he was the strongest. Unless you believe the manga is wrong?
This isn't about 'Hiruzen (prime) can defeat Hashirama' or 'Hiruzen (prime) can defeat Itachi'. This is not a vs thread. It is to point out that, at this current moment in time, the author has clearly and undeniably hyped Hiruzen to be the strongest Hokage. You cannot argue with the author.
Let me just say that its Kishimoto himself that has given Hiruzen the reputation he has, through statements in the manga. And you can't claim that the creator of the Narutoverse is wrong, his word is law, he is god in that world. When Kishimoto says "he is this", no-one can say anything against it. There are very few characters in the whole manga that have been given a reputation even close to Hiruzens, by Kishimoto. You can argue all you like about 'I wanna see feats', but if the author himself has shown Hiruzen to be the strongest Hokage in the manga through word alone this cannot be argued with.
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