[Debate] America's debt situation.

Mypower

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It's only a matter of time before we reach 17 trillion .
Like when we are we going to stop spending on
the freaking military.

We need to spend this money on jobs
like what are you doing congress.

It's too much what do you think we should do.

Let me hear your thoughts.
 

itachi4real

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ur exactly right my good man...
 

Souji

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Military spending is not the biggest expenditure, surprisingly. It's things like Social Security and welfare programs.

I have no problem with either institution existing; what I can't seem to grasp, is how the government expects to pay for all this without taking in enough revenue via taxes or the like.

You can't scream for more aid programs, stronger military forces, etc. without having a social obligation to pay for what you want. "You get what you pay for".

I'd personally like to see more money put into things like education, culture enrichment, and science/technology.

Just my $0.02.
 

Xicer

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Or maybe a problem is that we spend too much on the military. America is #1 in the world in defense spending. We spend more than the next 26 countries on that list, combined. Oh, and 25 of those 26 are allies as well.
 

Mypower

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Or maybe a problem is that we spend too much on the military. America is #1 in the world in defense spending. We spend more than the next 26 countries on that list, combined. Oh, and 25 of those 26 are allies as well.

I know it's insane.
 

Mypower

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Military spending is not the biggest expenditure, surprisingly. It's things like Social Security and welfare programs.

I have no problem with either institution existing; what I can't seem to grasp, is how the government expects to pay for all this without taking in enough revenue via taxes or the like.

You can't scream for more aid programs, stronger military forces, etc. without having a social obligation to pay for what you want. "You get what you pay for".

I'd personally like to see more money put into things like education, culture enrichment, and science/technology.

Just my $0.02.

Yeah I forgot about those two.
I think that not everybody needs medicare.
 

msbishop92

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Three words.

TAX. THE. CHURCHES.

It would EASILY wipe our national debt. Now I know some of you will try to come at me, so please do. The churches want to have a say in what goes on with society and in politics, so there is no reason why they shouldn't. Tell me what a church needs money for anyway?
 

Ciao

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Congress doesn't care about anything besides getting re-elected. They'll sign or veto anything that will help them keep their job.
 

Souji

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Three words.

TAX. THE. CHURCHES.

It would EASILY wipe our national debt. Now I know some of you will try to come at me, so please do. The churches want to have a say in what goes on with society and in politics, so there is no reason why they shouldn't. Tell me what a church needs money for anyway?

Well, most religious institutions need money to support their facilities and do their advocacy/philanthropy.

A lot of people argue it's non-taxable income, but what about the richest people in the nation? They're guilty of it too, what, with investments and under the table operations.
 

Xicer

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I say legalize marijuana all over the country, and tax the s*** out of it. It would be safer than people going to a dealer, it could be regulated, less people would go to jail (less inmates, less spending), and we could cut out sanctions of the government designed to take down marijuana trade. Just an idea
 

toviasrepier

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Well, most religious institutions need money to support their facilities and do their advocacy/philanthropy.

A lot of people argue it's non-taxable income, but what about the richest people in the nation? They're guilty of it too, what, with investments and under the table operations.

Take out the corporate crooks and bankers. Federal bank is the biggest scam. They are the root cause of this unpayable dept.US is going down the toilet but these people are walking away.
 

Aim64C

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It's only a matter of time before we reach 17 trillion .
Like when we are we going to stop spending on
the freaking military.



Defense accounts for roughly the same amount of spending as healthcare. About twice as much is actually spent on welfare (hidden within pension spending).

You'll see other sources that break down spending differently and try to make defense spending look hideously large by including most government pensions and national security spending under "defense/military" spending. Though with some of that money being used by local police departments to buy Infantry Fighting Vehicles and other such things... it's not entirely inaccurate....

We need to spend this money on jobs

No, we don't.

The problem with all federal jobs is that they are either temporary or permanent. They don't actually create an economy that exists outside of government spending. While it's true that some local towns survive off of the spending of military families - the reality is that if you down-size the military, you kill off the economic activity of that town.

The painful fact is that the government doesn't really create any jobs or any economy.

The -best- argument for government spending is in public infrastructure. Subsidizing the construction of roadways, railways, power infrastructure, and data communications would be the best possible use of government contracted jobs - because you are creating something that can then be used by businesses after the government stops dolling out money.

Though even this should not be done without very careful consideration for the consequences. Amtrak is a perfect example of this. It's an insoluble business that cannot run without government support. Such programs must be looked at very carefully for their ability to reciprocate economic activity without being tied to the government printing press.

like what are you doing congress.

Generally, educated people end their questions with a 'question mark.'

It's too much what do you think we should do.

Let me hear your thoughts.

The first thing we should do is repeal "obamacare."

Then we should abolish the Federal Reserve and the FDIC. Immediately put banks in charge of covering their own financial liabilities (and watch the interest rates on savings accounts shoot through the roof).

Freeze minimum wage and run anyone who advocates raising it out on a rail to be tarred and feathered (preferably knock their head against as many low-hanging obstructions as possible; do not resuscitate).

Repeal federal income tax. Adopt a national sales tax that occurs at the point of retail sale (thus, exporting from the U.S. is 'tax-free' for businesses while all imports get the same tax as domestically produced products - plus the taxes most companies have on their domestic manufacturers - means domestically produced products sold in the U.S. are taxed less). Use a tax prebate system as suggested under the "Fair Tax" initiative.

Dissolve the Federal Housing Administration.

Dig a moat, build a fence, post reserve military security.... something at the southern border.

Better yet - get rid of all federal subsidies for welfare and medicare/Medicaid. That will reduce, greatly, the problems with undocumented/illegal/whatever-non-offensive-hippie-shit-phrase immigrants.

Then, we get rid of social security. This one is a bit of a trick, as people have been led to believe the lie that there is an actual social security fund. The reality is that the money you pay into Social Security is turned right around to pay social security beneficiaries (liquidating the trust fund causes inflation - which is, essentially, a tax) and sold as bonds to investors in order to justify using the trust fund to cover other budgeted expenses.

But it needs to be done away with, because I'll be damned if my kids are going to be held at gunpoint and told that they need to afford me a paycheck. The least my crotchety old ass will be able to do for them is get out of their way and let them live their life, rather than selfishly preserving the decaying remnants of my own at their expense.
 

Aim64C

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Three words.

TAX. THE. CHURCHES.

It would EASILY wipe our national debt. Now I know some of you will try to come at me, so please do. The churches want to have a say in what goes on with society and in politics, so there is no reason why they shouldn't. Tell me what a church needs money for anyway?

Taxing the churches would collect over 1 trillion dollars per year to cover government spending?

Really?

Churches need money to exist. Bills don't pay themselves, pastors and groundskeepers don't disappear into heaven when they are not needed (meaning what they do is a job that requires pay), churches don't just spring forth from the ground (they must be contracted and built - which usually involves loans).

Though I do take considerable exceptions to Churches and/or pastors that make it a point to bring politics into the pulpit. I've always had the inclination to smite anyone who believes their own political viewpoint to be "the will of God" (which is, essentially, what someone has deluded themselves into believing if they start trying to preach politics).

It's almost impossible for humans to not bring a little bit of politics into religious discussions - but many of them try to keep it out of their institution. It's toxic to bring politics into religion. Religion, itself, is a relatively heated issue. Bring in politics and you'll have a blood altar before you can say "Quetzalcoatl."
 

EnDash

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this^ is scary, good thing i don't live in usa...
 

Aim64C

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this^ is scary, good thing i don't live in usa...

It won't really matter.

When the U.S. collapses - most of the 'developed' and 'developing' world will go with it.

Even if we miraculously fix the problem we're in now (highly improbable - we are in the twilight years of our civilization; we've become too complacent to do what is necessary) - the best it will accomplish is to shift the 'burden' over to another power (much as the second World War saw the dissolution of the British Empire and saw the U.S. and the Soviet Union rise in her place) - and then that power will breed complacency within that society until they face similar problems.

Eventually, someone fails at resolving the problem before power can shift, and the result is a dark age.

I would say that the U.S. has something in the neighborhood of a 2-5% chance of recovering from this problem. But the reality is that over 50% of our population receive some kind of direct subsidy from government spending programs. That creates an inherent conflict of interest in the voting booth. People have grown up on these programs and entire segments of our society would -die- if we were to end them.

Few people are honestly going to vote for suicide; and too few people are willing to let nature run its course on people who require a government system to survive. They'll vote to continue those systems because they can't stand to see someone die.

It's this idea that you can make the system of taxation work out to be 'nice' and 'kind hearted' that will destroy us. Taxation is a necessary evil. No one should ever support more government spending without subjecting it to the highest degree of scrutiny.

Government exists fundamentally to limit people. It's a system of rules and restrictions that people agree to live by in order to standardize and deconflict procedure. It's not meant to increase freedom, merely to provide fence-rows within a featureless pasture of conduct.

Its ability to benefit society is inherently limited.

People just don't understand how dire the problem is.

But, in the end, nature wins. You can bend the rules for a time - but it eventually catches up. The law of math dictates that public debt increase inflation. Increasing federal spending into a deficit eventually guarantees geometric increases in monetary supply for the same economic activity (hyper-inflation).

There are ways to hide it, 'sink' it, and obscure it. The housing market is one such way. Increasing minimum wage is another (though this drives service and retail inflation directly - so it's a double-edged sword... and higher-paying industries cannot be cost-competitive while raising their wages for employees previously making, say, 50% more than minimum wage, who are now only making 5% more than minimum wage and experiencing cost inflations driven by minimum wage hikes).

More people go onto support programs in order to survive (it's available... and you have children who need to be fed... can you really sit and let them starve because of problems created by other groups of people?), more people grow up under the system, general acceptance of the system as a good and necessary thing grows. Politicians demonize employers who cannot afford to keep up with growing regulatory pressures, union demands, and minimum wage increases (which prompt unions to demand even higher wages for employees to make the same percentage over minimum wage... while those unions also lobby for higher minimum wage). People remember how the government programs allowed them to survive despite the evil employers who wouldn't pay them a 'living wage.'

When the debt issue begins to become more obvious, politicians begin blaming those people who are wealthy. Obviously, they must be doing something unfair. Half the country is on subsidies, and they aren't... why aren't they paying their fair share?

The reality of figures elude the average individual, who is now barely literate. The fact that over half of all tax revenues come from the top 20% of income earners doesn't factor into their perspective (it's actually closer to 75% provided by the top 20%). Cunning political campaign workers use deceptive statistics to try and paint a picture that doesn't exist. A CEO cashes out on stock options one year, and his net earnings get quoted as if it were his salary (even though those stock options were built up over his career).

If I were an optimistic person - I'd say it was all an organized conspiracy to destroy us.

However, my experiences have shown pessimism to be more accurate than optimism when it comes to the motives and abilities of others.

It's simply short-sighted people looking for ways to gain power. Once a society is no longer hungry for competition; their lust for development sated... they begin to try and bring about various ideal philosophical concepts and to live according to them. They are no longer concerned with the practical; with what generates results. They're concerned with whether or not something is 'fair' - and start trying to structure their government and society to make things 'fair.'

Like all of the goodness in the human heart - it is exploited by people concerned with only their own advancement. On one end - you have people who use these systems to avoid having to work or become productive. On the other hand, you have politicians who will support these programs because they are what people believe to be 'fair' and 'just.'

The truly good hearted people are taken from both ends because of their foolishness.

And, just like all good things, it will be raped and exploited until there is nothing left but selfish people to rape and exploit each other.

That is the course of society. That is what humans are.

Kindness - goodness.... is something to be guarded very carefully. It's what distinguishes people from humans. You cannot love a human into being a person. You will, ultimately, be exploited. If you ever extend kindness to someone you do not know, do so fully prepared to accept that it will be exploited and that you will come out worse off for it.

I, for one, welcome the dawn of this coming dark age. Darkness, after all, is just an opportunity for new light. Not that humans will change - but perhaps people will be able to create something to liberate them from the fate of humans.
 

YowYan

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They made peacefull opposition impossible/useless in your country so I guess violent revolution is the only option left for real change.
 

Aim64C

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They made peacefull opposition impossible/useless in your country so I guess violent revolution is the only option left for real change.

Peaceful protest has always been ineffectual. It doesn't work, anywhere.

What actually works is people wising up and affecting change. They have to actually do something. Which, in itself, implies conflict.

On that note, however, we're to a point where the only majority opinion is the status quo. Sure - there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied with the current system - but there's no coherent movement to a more functional system. 10% want this. 5% want that. 15% want something else. Lay these out over 10 different major issues affecting our society - and you have overlaps of 2% here and 3% there. There's no consistent 'plan' to get behind.

Except the 'status quo' and short-sighted attempts to improve it.

At the end of the day - people are dysfunctionally practical. They'll accept short-term profits if the long-term detriment is not obvious and/or ambiguous. They'll wander past life-boats on a slowly sinking ship and just inch away from the rising water until they are killing each other over what little deck is left to stand on.

If the effort for a 'better' system is less convenient than simply adjusting the status quo, they'll adjust the status quo almost every single time. People "make do" rather than "make new."

So, what will happen is people will ride this system until there is fleetingly little left to stand on. At that point, the different interests will begin fighting amongst each other for short-sighted objectives. You might get a unified effort against the current system - since it will become painfully obvious that it won't work... but the problem with revolutions is not toppling the existing regime.

I could topple the federal government with 50 dedicated people. Destruction is a simple task.

It's the end-game - the "now what" after you've destroyed something is the difficult part. People who supported you because you resisted the establishment now no longer support half of your proposals for where to go. You united behind one goal - but that goal has been accomplished and the union falls apart as quickly as it formed.

A revolution in this country would turn into a twenty year long Battle-Royal.

It isn't even an issue of states, anymore. It's an issue of lifestyles. Urban areas are always passing laws/regulations that interfere with the lives of rural regions. Welfare babies are voting to support their own welfare babies. - There are too many competing interests within centralized governmental structures (even the states are becoming too large/diverse for the power often granted to their legislatures).

Once violence erupts - it's going to propagate through each major rift in politics.

And don't think it will be isolated to this nation. Some of the ideological conflicts will spread to other nations. Most/all nations will also suffer huge economic hits that will spike unemployment and see a collapse of supply chains.

It will be even more impressive than the fall of Rome.

It will be our duty to preserve history and knowledge of technology so that, once the flames die down and the ash settles, a rekindling can be done by our great grandchildren, starting over from much of the knowledge we left behind.
 

Souji

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Peaceful protest has always been ineffectual. It doesn't work, anywhere.

What actually works is people wising up and affecting change. They have to actually do something. Which, in itself, implies conflict.

On that note, however, we're to a point where the only majority opinion is the status quo. Sure - there are a lot of people who are dissatisfied with the current system - but there's no coherent movement to a more functional system. 10% want this. 5% want that. 15% want something else. Lay these out over 10 different major issues affecting our society - and you have overlaps of 2% here and 3% there. There's no consistent 'plan' to get behind.

Except the 'status quo' and short-sighted attempts to improve it.

At the end of the day - people are dysfunctionally practical. They'll accept short-term profits if the long-term detriment is not obvious and/or ambiguous. They'll wander past life-boats on a slowly sinking ship and just inch away from the rising water until they are killing each other over what little deck is left to stand on.

If the effort for a 'better' system is less convenient than simply adjusting the status quo, they'll adjust the status quo almost every single time. People "make do" rather than "make new."

So, what will happen is people will ride this system until there is fleetingly little left to stand on. At that point, the different interests will begin fighting amongst each other for short-sighted objectives. You might get a unified effort against the current system - since it will become painfully obvious that it won't work... but the problem with revolutions is not toppling the existing regime.

I could topple the federal government with 50 dedicated people. Destruction is a simple task.

It's the end-game - the "now what" after you've destroyed something is the difficult part. People who supported you because you resisted the establishment now no longer support half of your proposals for where to go. You united behind one goal - but that goal has been accomplished and the union falls apart as quickly as it formed.

A revolution in this country would turn into a twenty year long Battle-Royal.

It isn't even an issue of states, anymore. It's an issue of lifestyles. Urban areas are always passing laws/regulations that interfere with the lives of rural regions. Welfare babies are voting to support their own welfare babies. - There are too many competing interests within centralized governmental structures (even the states are becoming too large/diverse for the power often granted to their legislatures).

Once violence erupts - it's going to propagate through each major rift in politics.

And don't think it will be isolated to this nation. Some of the ideological conflicts will spread to other nations. Most/all nations will also suffer huge economic hits that will spike unemployment and see a collapse of supply chains.

It will be even more impressive than the fall of Rome.

It will be our duty to preserve history and knowledge of technology so that, once the flames die down and the ash settles, a rekindling can be done by our great grandchildren, starting over from much of the knowledge we left behind.

@Bold, and history repeats itself once again, lol
 
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