American College of Pediatricians...Transgender conditioning is child abuse

[slimreaper]

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I agree, It's child abuse.

 

[Claymantan]

This needed a new thread?

What defines LGBTQ-affirming? How affirming is the "most LGBTQ affirming" country?

I refuted like every point made in this article in the other thread

ACP is another socially conservative research group and was founded on the principle of homosexual exclusion

Make posts on some other topic

You literally post the most biased sources of all time

 

[Prince Lucifer]

How is it child abuse if you're born with Gender Dysphoria?

 

[slimreaper]

This needed a new thread?

What defines LGBTQ-affirming? How affirming is the "most LGBTQ affirming" country?

I refuted like every point made in this article in the other thread

ACP is another socially conservative research group and was founded on the principle of homosexual exclusion

Make posts on some other topic

You literally post the most biased sources of all time

you are correct. That however doesn't make them wrong. I wanted to see how long it took until someone pointed that out to not have to argue the information they present


my personal favorite

5. According to the DSM-V, as many as 98 percent of gender confused boys and 88 percent of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological *** after naturally passing through puberty.

And so what do we call a physician or a parent who takes a gender-confused boy, with a 98 percent chance of full recovery, and severely and irrevocably harms that child with dangerous hormones or sterilization surgery?

We should be calling them what they are: criminals.

To its credit, the ACPeds report goes on to identify this so-called “gender ideology” for exactly what it is: “Child abuse.”

 

[Pumpkin Ninja]

They do that to children? You think something that big would be their decision when they become adults.

 

[Claymantan]

you are correct. That however doesn't make them wrong. I wanted to see how long it took until someone pointed that out to not have to argue the information they present

5. According to the DSM-V, as many as 98 percent of gender confused boys and 88 percent of gender confused girls eventually accept their biological *** after naturally passing through puberty.

And so what do we call a physician or a parent who takes a gender-confused boy, with a 98 percent chance of full recovery, and severely and irrevocably harms that child with dangerous hormones or sterilization surgery?

We should be calling them what they are: criminals.

To its credit, the ACPeds report goes on to identify this so-called “gender ideology” for exactly what it is: “Child abuse.”

It meant they misrepresent facts, what you should have linked to was the actual entry in the DSM-V. Who posts faulty or incomplete evidence and then proclaims that because their evidence is faulty, attacking their argument based on faulty evidence is invalid? That's backwards as hell.

The DSM-V doesn't paint gender dysphoria as this thing that you just leave alone and everything is fine (from page 458): "Gender dysphoria, along with atypicalgender expression, is associated with high levels of stigmatization, discrimination, and victimization, leading to negative self-concept, increased rates of mental disorder comorbidity, school dropout, and economic marginalization, including unemployment, with attendant social and mental health risks, especially in individuals from resource-poor family backgrounds. In addition, these individuals' access to health services and mental health services may be impeded by structural barriers, such as institutional discomfort or inexperience in working with this patient population."

From page 459: "In prepubertal children, increasing age is associated with having more behavioral or emotional problems; this is related to the increasing non-acceptance of gender-variant behavior by others. In older children, gender variant behavior often leads to peer ostracism, which may lead to more behavioral problems. The prevalence of mental health problems differs among cultures; these differences may also be related to differences in attitudes towards gender variance in children."

And finally, your misrepresentative as hell quote (From page 455): "In natal males, persistence has ranged from 2.2% to 30%. In natal females, persistence has ranged from 12% to 50%." The range there is significant.

A further note, the percentage does not indicate how it relates to those children who do express a desire for ***-reassignment: "A small minority of children express discomfort with their sexual anatomy or will state the desire to have a sexual anatomy corresponding to the experienced gender ("anatomic dysphoria"). Expressions of anatomic dysphoria become more common as children with gender dysphoria approach and anticipate puberty." The number who actually get *** changes while experiencing gender dysphoria is comparatively small. Hell, it could be the 2.2% or whatever in whom gender dysphoria persists. In which case, there's no problem with them having *** reassignment surgery, based on your argument.

Finally, the DSM-V, as far as I can tell, makes no mention of whether or not gender dysphoria persists or wears off post ***-reassignment. As in, no one's checking on actual transgendered people to see what the impact of *** reassignment is on gender dysphoria, specifically.

So, in conclusion:

-People with gender dysphoria suffer institutional barriers and mental health problems on the regular which has lasting consequences for their quality of life and long-term health.
-These problems can manifest at early ages and lead to behavioral and emotional issues.
-Gender dysphoria may persist in up to 30% and 50% of afflicted males and females, respectively (your source misrepresents the data).
-We do not know how many of those experiencing gender dysphoria actually get ***-reassignment (based on the DSM-V) and whether or not this resolves or fails to address gender dysphoria, as the DSM-V takes no stance on it.

Your source. Is. Crap. I'm not going to refute every single point when this is a prime example of why it is crap.

Going to emphasize this: Nothing in any officially recognized scientific literature condemns *** reassignment surgery. In part, this is because gender dysphoria =/= transgendered person and =/= *** reassignment. If you want to attack transgendered people, you need to focus on the outcomes of *** reassignment, and I've already explained the various reasons why *** reassignment may lead to higher suicide rates (failure of institutions to be accepting of transgendered people, interpersonal violence and shame, etc.) which are also mentioned by the DSM-V.

Yes, morbidity rates in the transgendered population are a significant issue, especially to LGBTQ people. It's still being studied. Stop making drastic conclusions. Especially from biased, secondary, sources.

 

[slimreaper]

It meant they misrepresent facts, what you should have linked to was the actual entry in the DSM-V. Who posts faulty or incomplete evidence and then proclaims that because their evidence is faulty, attacking their argument based on faulty evidence is invalid? That's backwards as hell.

The DSM-V doesn't paint gender dysphoria as this thing that you just leave alone and everything is fine (from page 458): "Gender dysphoria, along with atypicalgender expression, is associated with high levels of stigmatization, discrimination, and victimization, leading to negative self-concept, increased rates of mental disorder comorbidity, school dropout, and economic marginalization, including unemployment, with attendant social and mental health risks, especially in individuals from resource-poor family backgrounds. In addition, these individuals' access to health services and mental health services may be impeded by structural barriers, such as institutional discomfort or inexperience in working with this patient population."

From page 459: "In prepubertal children, increasing age is associated with having more behavioral or emotional problems; this is related to the increasing non-acceptance of gender-variant behavior by others. In older children, gender variant behavior often leads to peer ostracism, which may lead to more behavioral problems. The prevalence of mental health problems differs among cultures; these differences may also be related to differences in attitudes towards gender variance in children."

And finally, your misrepresentative as hell quote (From page 455): "In natal males, persistence has ranged from 2.2% to 30%. In natal females, persistence has ranged from 12% to 50%." The range there is significant.

A further note, the percentage does not indicate how it relates to those children who do express a desire for ***-reassignment: "A small minority of children express discomfort with their sexual anatomy or will state the desire to have a sexual anatomy corresponding to the experienced gender ("anatomic dysphoria"). Expressions of anatomic dysphoria become more common as children with gender dysphoria approach and anticipate puberty." The number who actually get *** changes while experiencing gender dysphoria is comparatively small. Hell, it could be the 2.2% or whatever in whom gender dysphoria persists. In which case, there's no problem with them having *** reassignment surgery, based on your argument.

Finally, the DSM-V, as far as I can tell, makes no mention of whether or not gender dysphoria persists or wears off post ***-reassignment. As in, no one's checking on actual transgendered people to see what the impact of *** reassignment is on gender dysphoria, specifically.

So, in conclusion:

-People with gender dysphoria suffer institutional barriers and mental health problems on the regular which has lasting consequences for their quality of life and long-term health.
-These problems can manifest at early ages and lead to behavioral and emotional issues.
-Gender dysphoria may persist in up to 30% and 50% of afflicted males and females, respectively (your source misrepresents the data).
-We do not know how many of those experiencing gender dysphoria actually get ***-reassignment (based on the DSM-V) and whether or not this resolves or fails to address gender dysphoria, as the DSM-V takes no stance on it.

Your source. Is. Crap. I'm not going to refute every single point when this is a prime example of why it is crap.

Going to emphasize this: Nothing in any officially recognized scientific literature condemns *** reassignment surgery. In part, this is because gender dysphoria =/= transgendered person and =/= *** reassignment. If you want to attack transgendered people, you need to focus on the outcomes of *** reassignment, and I've already explained the various reasons why *** reassignment may lead to higher suicide rates (failure of institutions to be accepting of transgendered people, interpersonal violence and shame, etc.) which are also mentioned by the DSM-V.

Yes, morbidity rates in the transgendered population are a significant issue, especially to LGBTQ people. It's still being studied. Stop making drastic conclusions. Especially from biased, secondary, sources.

The only actual study ever done is the one in Sweden. You've already dismissed this study as inaccurate.

You can't claim victory because we don't have the research yet.
Link your sources btw

 

[Claymantan]

The only actual study ever done is the one in Sweden. You've already dismissed this study as inaccurate.

You can't claim victory because we don't have the research yet.
Link your sources btw

If by Sweden you're referring to that thing that the Johns Hopkins guy mentioned, I didn't refute it as inaccurate. I'm sure it's a legitimate study. My point was that it was insufficient evidence to draw the conclusion that ***-reassignment is an illegitimate treatment for people who experience gender dysphoria (and whom opt for surgery, which again, is a minority of people with gender dysphoria). The study itself doesn't condemn ***-reassignment. And studies since 2011 have cited that study as an example of why more research is needed for post-assignment care. They also generally do not condemn *** reassignment.

You want me to link the DSM-V? That's difficult. I'll PM you, if you're looking for a copy.

I'm not "claiming" victory, I'm claiming that there there is no sufficient consensus in the scientific community on this subject, except to permit *** reassignment as an option (whether or not hospitals perform the surgeries is their choice, but researchers as a whole do not say "No reassignments"). The people who select ***-reassignment as an option generally do not express a desire to have it banned even after surgery. It's the same with abortions. If you want to say they should be banned and that transgendered peoples' identities are illegitimate, you must provide conclusive evidence to say so. Otherwise, you can't advocate that transgendered people are lying or truly confused about their identity, or that they should be barred access from surgeries which conform with their identities.

Everything I said in that previous post was based on the DSM-V itself.

 

[slimreaper]

If by Sweden you're referring to that thing that the Johns Hopkins guy mentioned, I didn't refute it as inaccurate. I'm sure it's a legitimate study. My point was that it was insufficient evidence to draw the conclusion that ***-reassignment is an illegitimate treatment for people who experience gender dysphoria (and whom opt for surgery, which again, is a minority of people with gender dysphoria). The study itself doesn't condemn ***-reassignment. And studies since 2011 have cited that study as an example of why more research is needed for post-assignment care. They also generally do not condemn *** reassignment.

You want me to link the DSM-V? That's difficult. I'll PM you, if you're looking for a copy.

I'm not "claiming" victory, I'm claiming that there there is no sufficient consensus in the scientific community on this subject, except to permit *** reassignment as an option (whether or not hospitals perform the surgeries is their choice, but researchers as a whole do not say "No reassignments"). The people who select ***-reassignment as an option generally do not express a desire to have it banned even after surgery. It's the same with abortions. If you want to say they should be banned and that transgendered peoples' identities are illegitimate, you must provide conclusive evidence to say so. Otherwise, you can't advocate that transgendered people are lying or truly confused about their identity, or that they should be barred access from surgeries which conform with their identities.

Everything I said in that previous post was based on the DSM-V itself.

The exact conclusion of the swedish study

"Persons with transsexualism, after *** reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that *** reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after *** reassignment for this patient group."

 

[Claymantan]

The exact conclusion of the swedish study

"Persons with transsexualism, after *** reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that *** reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after *** reassignment for this patient group."

Yes, exactly what I said. It does not say "do not ***-reassign." It says "If the patient selects ***-reassignment, then we need better post-reassignment care." Nowhere in that quote does it say that ***-reassignment = never do it.

And, just to show that I've been saying this:

My point was that it was insufficient evidence to draw the conclusion that ***-reassignment is an illegitimate treatment for people who experience gender dysphoria (and whom opt for surgery, which again, is a minority of people with gender dysphoria). The study itself doesn't condemn ***-reassignment. And studies since 2011 have cited that study as an example of why more research is needed for post-assignment care. They also generally do not condemn *** reassignment.

(Illegitimate = should not be performed)