Agreed disclosures...

[Rikudou Tobi]

Agreed disclosures that don't really make sense to me. Here's my top 5 in no particular order.


1. How you really obtained Rikudou senjutsu or Six path sage chakra.

-I've heard that people say that six path sage chakra is made up of natural energy (NE) and rikudou chakra.
That doesn't make sense considering that rinnegan madara had rikudou chakra and natural energy from hashirama yet he had no rikudou senjutsu. (Naruto fans hold yourself and keep that vague kishi databook proverb on how to awaken six path sage chakra for a bit)

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2. Obtaining Rikudou chakra means gaining the rinnegan.

-Everytime you say that one individual person has rikudou chakra, some person swears that person doesn't because you need ashura+indra= rinnegan.
But you need to know that those logic only applies to reincarnate because look at DMS Kakashi. He was given rikudou by his friend Obito and neither of them awakened the rinnegan.
Just look at these people with no rinnegan and rikudou chakra...

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There's more but you get the point.


3.How did the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Hokage that are hyped to be the most powerful in the world get killed in war.



4. Why did Kabuto not summon Sakumo Hatake in the war and summon these people instead?

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5. Requirements for Izanagi.


-The manga says it is a requirement to have both senju and uchiha power to use. But some people call this a lie for some reason based on a flashback that never specified on how they obtained izanagi in the first place. So does this mean Danzo was able to use izanagi without senju dna now?

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6. How do you train or teach your eyes jutsus or other tricks?


-I know that black zetsu said that theirs a mangekyo sharingan trick to install jutsus but deidara is another guy that's doing tricks with his eyes too.

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These just somethings that I've notice and we just disclosed this as another plot device to secure our speculations.
Is there like any databook entry or some scholarly (kishi's notes) facts around here for some of these open subjects?

 

[Holy God]

Agreed disclosures that don't really make sense to me. Here's my top 5 in no particular order.


1. How you really obtained Rikudou senjutsu or Six path sage chakra.

-I've heard that people say that six path sage chakra is made up of natural energy (NE) and rikudou chakra.
That doesn't make sense considering that rinnegan madara had rikudou chakra and natural energy from hashirama yet he had no rikudou senjutsu. (Naruto fans hold yourself and keep that vague kishi proverb on how to awaken six path sage chakra for a bit)

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I don't know about any of the others, but for this, it is true that Six Paths Sage chakra is Six Paths chakra and natural energy. Madara didn't have it because he never absorbed natural energy. The only thing he absorbed was Hashirama's chakra which already has natural energy, and chakra doesn't mix.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

I don't know about any of the others, but for this, it is true that Six Paths Sage chakra is Six Paths chakra and natural energy. Madara didn't have it because he never absorbed natural energy. The only thing he absorbed was Hashirama's chakra which already has natural energy, and chakra doesn't mix.

It's legitimately the same thing thing otherwise Obito and Madara would never be able to use senjutsu attacks from just absorbing the juubi. Madara absorbing Hashirama's senjutsu is just him absorbing the natural energy hashirama already gathered. Other than that you are not making any sense at all :lol

 

[Holy God]

It's legitimately the same thing thing otherwise Obito and Madara would never be able to use senjutsu attacks from just absorbing the juubi. Madara absorbing Hashirama's senjutsu is just him absorbing the natural energy hashirama already gathered. Other than that you are not making any sense at all :lol

Incorrect. In order for one's chakra to become Sage chakra they must mix it with natural energy. Madara never mixed his own with natural energy. Absorbing Hashirama's chakra does not apply his properties to Madara's, just like Sasuke who had gotten Naruto's chakra can no longer use a cloak, because his own chakra was not changed.

 

[Sagebee]

1) my memory of the war is hazy, but the way I see it obito and madara both had to go through sage training or obtain a sage chakra somehow to awaken sage of six path sage chakra. It's also possible from hashirama dna he didn't just obtain his senjutsu blood but easy accessibility to sage mode.

2)from my understanding you will need sage of six path chakra and okutsuki dna to fully awaken a rinnegan

3)when did the first and third get killed in a war, if I remember correctly didn't Tobirama sacrifice his life to stop the gold and silver brothers.

4)two reason I think one might be kabuto didn't have the dna and two I think if he added him into the mix it prolong the war and he got see him in the pain arc.

6)about the deidara thing I don't think you can train to block a genjutsu, but maybe it just requires strength of will and concentration.

I think the logic of planting jutsu in eye is if you put some of your chakra in them have your essence that you can set a requirement to activate it similarly there was condition so hagoromo could come back to the world

 

[Legendary Broly]

4. Why did Kabuto not summon Sakumo Hatake in the war and summon these people instead?

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While it would have been great to see him revived and see him use his powers so we could see the legend in action, I believe the reason he was not revived had a lot to do with the plot.

He already met Kakashi in the afterlife and we got to see a touching moment where he finally found peace and moved on. Had he been revived this moment would have been ruined. It is also kind of cool to leave him a mystery, I found that edo tensei kind of ruined a lot of the characters for me (made them look weaker etc). I liked how Sakumo and Shisui were both left untouched leaving us to only imagine how awesome they were.

Also, Kakashi got a pretty big touching moment in the war arc with Obito. Would have been a little crowded to give him emotional moment after emotional moment- but hey that's just my opinion.

5. Requirements for Izanagi.


-The manga says it is a requirement to have both senju and uchiha power to use. But some people call this a lie for some reason based on a flashback that never specified on how they obtained izanagi in the first place. So does this mean Danzo was able to use izanagi without senju dna now?

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I may have misunderstood your statement, but Danzō does have Senju DNA as a result of an Orochimaru experiment and about 10 sharingans which means he has Senju + Uchiha DNA = Ability to use Izanagi.

 

[rollin]

Hagromos chakra is indra+ashura=rinnegan
Hagoromos sejnutsu is the juubi or all of the bijuu chakra=six path sage mode
Rinnegan=eyes
Six path sage mode=body

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Incorrect. In order for one's chakra to become Sage chakra they must mix it with natural energy. Madara never mixed his own with natural energy. Absorbing Hashirama's chakra does not apply his properties to Madara's, just like Sasuke who had gotten Naruto's chakra can no longer use a cloak, because his own chakra was not changed.

No it's not incorrect. Where does Natural energy goes if it's not mixed with your chakra? In order to show Sage mode patterns your Sage chakra needs to be already mixed with the users chakra.

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:lol You're just making these things up.

While it would have been great to see him revived and see him use his powers so we could see the legend in action, I believe the reason he was not revived had a lot to do with the plot.

He already met Kakashi in the afterlife and we got to see a touching moment where he finally found peace and moved on. Had he been revived this moment would have been ruined. It is also kind of cool to leave him a mystery, I found that edo tensei kind of ruined a lot of the characters for me (made them look weaker etc). I liked how Sakumo and Shisui were both left untouched leaving us to only imagine how awesome they were.

Also, Kakashi got a pretty big touching moment in the war arc with Obito. Would have been a little crowded to give him emotional moment after emotional moment- but hey that's just my opinion.

I mean wasn't that the point to Kabuto's motive? Make it way harder on the mid range captain of the shinobi force?

I may have misunderstood your statement, but Danzō does have Senju DNA as a result of an Orochimaru experiment and about 10 sharingans which means he has Senju + Uchiha DNA = Ability to use Izanagi.

Yes it does but people are arguing that you don't need senju dna which doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Holy God]

No it's not incorrect. Where does Natural energy goes if it's not mixed with your chakra? In order to show Sage mode patterns your Sage chakra needs to be already mixed with the users chakra.

:lol You're just making these things up.

That's irrelevant. The natural energy is already mixed with Hashirama's chakra. In order for you to be correct, you have to be saying the nature energy is being extracted from his chakra and going to Madara's, which doesn't make sense in the slightest and you'll have to prove it's even possible. Given chakra does not mix, as has been proven multiple times, so Hashirama's Sage chakra will be completely separate from Madara's own.

The Ten-Tails examples are also irrelevant. They're utilizing that source of chakra, just like hosts can use the Tailed Beasts in order to transform as well.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

1) my memory of the war is hazy, but the way I see it obito and madara both had to go through sage training or obtain a sage chakra somehow to awaken sage of six path sage chakra. It's also possible from hashirama dna he didn't just obtain his senjutsu blood but easy accessibility to sage mode.

They didn't go through training they just used rikudou coffin seal technique to use rikudou senjutsu at its best as jinchuurikis.
Not sure of the other part you said though.

2)from my understanding you will need sage of six path chakra and okutsuki dna to fully awaken a rinnegan

For reincarnates to awaken the rinnegn. There have been other people who gained rikudou chakra but did not awsaken the rinnegan.

3)when did the first and third get killed in a war, if I remember correctly didn't Tobirama sacrifice his life to stop the gold and silver brothers.

Yes that was in the mist of war. It was Kin and Gin vs leaf and cloud war, and Hashirama's early databook said that he also died in war but never specified.

4)two reason I think one might be kabuto didn't have the dna and two I think if he added him into the mix it prolong the war and he got see him in the pain arc.

Maybe, that could be it

6)about the deidara thing I don't think you can train to block a genjutsu, but maybe it just requires strength of will and concentration.

I think the logic of planting jutsu in eye is if you put some of your chakra in them have your essence that you can set a requirement to activate it similarly there was condition so hagoromo could come back to the world

Kishi needs to explain the mechanics behind it though

That's irrelevant. The natural energy is already mixed with Hashirama's chakra. In order for you to be correct, you have to be saying the nature energy is being extracted from his chakra and going to Madara's, which doesn't make sense in the slightest and you'll have to prove it's even possible. Given chakra does not mix, as has been proven multiple times, so Hashirama's Sage chakra will be completely separate from Madara's own.

The Ten-Tails examples are also irrelevant. They're utilizing that source of chakra, just like hosts can use the Tailed Beasts in order to transform as well.

Hashirama chakra that is already in Madara's body. He has it in his left chest to prove this.
You cannot use sagemode at all if it's not already mixed with your chakra. You'll die and with frog sage mode you'll just turn into a stone.
Everything else you're saying doesn't even make sense and are assumptions with no prove at all.

 

[Ansatsuken]

Agreed disclosures that don't really make sense to me. Here's my top 5 in no particular order.


1. How you really obtained Rikudou senjutsu or Six path sage chakra.

-I've heard that people say that six path sage chakra is made up of natural energy (NE) and rikudou chakra.
That doesn't make sense considering that rinnegan madara had rikudou chakra and natural energy from hashirama yet he had no rikudou senjutsu. (Naruto fans hold yourself and keep that vague kishi databook proverb on how to awaken six path sage chakra for a bit)

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Like Holy God said. You need Sage Chakra and also NE. And if Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra is Madara's Senjutsu chakra, all the marking need to be appear on Madara's face as his entire body can accept Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra but what actually happen is all Senjutsu chakra apparently gather on his boob(Hashi boob). That clearly shows you that two parts of his body are separated which Hashi boob is clearly use for containing/holding Senjutsu chakra as originally known Madara was not a senjutsu user. Its like Yin Seal to Madara.

2. Obtaining Rikudou chakra means gaining the rinnegan.

-Everytime you say that one individual person has rikudou chakra, some person swears that person doesn't because you need ashura+indra= rinnegan.
But you need to know that those logic only applies to reincarnate because look at DMS Kakashi. He was given rikudou by his friend Obito and neither of them awakened the rinnegan.
Just look at these people with no rinnegan and rikudou chakra...

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There's more but you get the point.

Who gets Hagoromo's Rikudou Chakra will awaken Rinnegan. Its not just any Rikudou Chakra.

3.How did the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Hokage that are hyped to be the most powerful in the world get killed in war.

Kishi

4. Why did Kabuto not summon Sakumo Hatake in the war and summon these people instead?

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For what purpose?

5. Requirements for Izanagi.


-The manga says it is a requirement to have both senju and uchiha power to use. But some people call this a lie for some reason based on a flashback that never specified on how they obtained izanagi in the first place. So does this mean Danzo was able to use izanagi without senju dna now?

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Madara never have Hashirama's DNA the first time he used Izanagi. It just for enhancement as I remember.

Answer in bold

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

Like Holy God said. You need Sage Chakra and also NE. And if Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra is Madara's Senjutsu chakra, all the marking need to be appear on Madara's face as his entire body can accept Hashirama's Senjutsu chakra but what actually happen is all Senjutsu chakra apparently gather on his boob(Hashi boob). That clearly shows you that two parts of his body are separated which Hashi boob is clearly use for containing/holding Senjutsu chakra as originally known Madara was not a senjutsu user. Its like Yin Seal to Madara.

He wouldn't of awakened the rinnegan if they were separate at all and like I told Holy god, these are just farfetched assumptions that don't make sense. You can't contain natural energy in your body if it's not mixed in with your chakra, just look at Pain's gakido path.
The Yin seal theory doesn't make sense either.

Who gets Hagoromo's Rikudou Chakra will awaken Rinnegan. Its not just any Rikudou Chakra.

Kakashi was given hagormoo chakra and no rinnegan. So no you're just repeating what I'm saying is a wrongfully disclosure here. Only reincarnates and a Otsutsuki member ever awakened the rinnegan upon six path chakra. The rest will have enhanced abilities with not rinnegan like kakashi.

For what purpose?

How about war? He was claimed to be stronger than the Sannins which is stronger than every famed shinobi category he set up. Like what, you think Asuma can do better?

Madara never have Hashirama's DNA the first time he used Izanagi. It just for enhancement as I remember.

It was an installment read part 6 to understand. It is not an enhancement read the manga. It said uchiha and senju powers only.

 

[Holy God]

Hashirama chakra that is already in Madara's body. He has it in his left chest to prove this.

Correct.

You cannot use sagemode at all if it's not already mixed with your chakra. You'll die and with frog sage mode you'll just turn into a stone.

So you're saying that Madara and Hashirama's chakra just mixed? Then why can no one that was given Naruto's chakra in the war use it anymore, since it should have mixed according to you? Why did Kurama's not mix with Sasuke, even becoming incompatible as noted? Why didn't the Tailed Beasts mix inside of Naruto? Why didn't Obito's chakra mix with Kakashi allowing him to keep the Mangekyou Sharingan? Never has given chakra mixed without special circumstances. There's a reason why Madara didn't get sage markings but his face of Hashirama did.

You can't contain natural energy in your body if it's not mixed in with your chakra, just look at Pain's gakido path.

No. Pain just couldn't handle natural energy. There was a flashback specifically saying the reason. The only difference between Madara absorbing it and Pain was that Madara was strong enough to handle the power.

 

[Legendary Broly]

I mean wasn't that the point to Kabuto's motive? Make it way harder on the mid range captain of the shinobi force?

Well, you can argue that. However, if it is not plot then I would say Kabuto had no DNA samples?

You could even go out on a whim and say that his soul was at peace and unable to be summoned. You did see some of the edo's freeing themselves from edo tensei because they have found "peace" i.e. Sasori. But it is a bit of a stretch.

Yes it does but people are arguing that you don't need senju dna which doesn't make sense to me.

Oh right, I see what you meant now. Known users are Obito, Madara and Danzō each who had Senju + Uchiha DNA. However, if I am not mistaken, Madara pre-set Izanagi to activate after his death at the hands of Hashirama, and he did not have Senju DNA at the time. So what I have read around is there is three types of Izanagi.

1. Base/Normal Izanagi that any Uchiha can utilize: This can change the reality of a brief moment. Madara used this version before his death. Would explain why he still had his wounds as Izanagi only reversed his death not any injuries sustained in the fight. This also adds up to what Itachi told Sasuke about Uchiha been able to use the technique in the past.

2. Incomplete (better): Utilized by a sharingan user with Senju DNA which would be how Danzō used the technique. Allowed him to activate the technique for up to a minute. (remembering Danzō didn't have complete control over Senju DNA).

3. Complete (best): Uchiha who has control over Senju DNA which is Obito's version. Allowed him to utilize the technique for longer and outlast Konan's attack.

So then to answer your question, based on the above speculations, an Uchiha can use Izanagi without Senju DNA however in order to utilize it to its full potential (extending the time span, potentially healing the eye again (as seen in Madara's case ) etc) then Senju DNA is required and for the best results, control over this Senju DNA is crucial.

 

[Ansatsuken]

He wouldn't of awakened the rinnegan if they were separate at all and like I told Holy god, these are just farfetched assumptions that don't make sense. You can't contain natural energy in your body if it's not mixed in with your chakra, just look at Pain's gakido path.
The Yin seal theory doesn't make sense either.

I leaves this as there is no way we can get the right answer but Kishi.

Kakashi was given hagormoo chakra and no rinnegan. So no you're just repeating what I'm saying is a wrongfully disclosure here. Only reincarnates and a Otsutsuki member ever awakened the rinnegan upon six path chakra. The rest will have enhanced abilities with not rinnegan like kakashi.

Kakashi never gotten chakra from Hagoromo. Dont fast to disagree. What Kakashi get from Obito is Rikudou chakra of Juubi and not Hagoromo. Hagoromo have his own Rikudou chakra signature, Juubi have his own.

Thus there's more thing you need to debunk or just agree.

It was an installment read part 6 to understand. It is not an enhancement read the manga. It said uchiha and senju powers only.

Obito said about it. But who you want to believe or which instances -> Uchiha Madara's story or Uchiha Obito's words?

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

So you're saying that Madara and Hashirama's chakra just mixed? Then why can no one that was given Naruto's chakra in the war use it anymore, since it should have mixed according to you? Why did Kurama's not mix with Sasuke, even becoming incompatible as noted? Why didn't the Tailed Beasts mix inside of Naruto? Why didn't Obito's chakra mix with Kakashi allowing him to keep the Mangekyou Sharingan? Never has given chakra mixed without special circumstances. There's a reason why Madara didn't get sage markings but his face of Hashirama did.

1. If Madara and Hashirama's chakra wasn't mixed he would've never awakened the rinnegan. You don't just separate chakra like that once it's already mixed inside of you.
2.Naruto was the one controlling the chakra that was given to them, they never transplanted naruto's chakra otherwise Sasuke would've gained the rinnegan by now. It was never permanent.
3. The tailed beast did mix inside naruto, why else did the juubi got impatient and tried to kill naruto?
4. Obito's chakra did mix with Kakashi, otherwise he never would've gotten rikudou chakra, susanoo, and magekyo sharingans from Obito in the first place. You can't use chakra that is not mix with your own. That chakra he mixed with him is temporary once Obito left kakashi to the dead.

The sage marking don't need to be apart of your face, the point is that it was already mixed with his body thanks to hashirama's chakra that is already inside of him. And that Hashirama chakra is already mixed with his own chakra to be producing Six path chakra.

No. Pain just couldn't handle natural energy. There was a flashback specifically saying the reason. The only difference between Madara absorbing it and Pain was that Madara was strong enough to handle the power.

Bold part is completely wrong. He is not able to handle Hashirama's sage mode without Hashirama's chakra being needed.

Well, you can argue that. However, if it is not plot then I would say Kabuto had no DNA samples?

You could even go out on a whim and say that his soul was at peace and unable to be summoned. You did see some of the edo's freeing themselves from edo tensei because they have found "peace" i.e. Sasori. But it is a bit of a stretch.

True, he may not have the dna. The soul at peace is a valid point but Kabuto never knew that Kakashi was already at peace with his dad so it could be just a dna thing.

Oh right, I see what you meant now. Known users are Obito, Madara and Danzō each who had Senju + Uchiha DNA. However, if I am not mistaken, Madara pre-set Izanagi to activate after his death at the hands of Hashirama, and he did not have Senju DNA at the time. So what I have read around is there is three types of Izanagi.

1. Base/Normal Izanagi that any Uchiha can utilize: This can change the reality of a brief moment. Madara used this version before his death. Would explain why he still had his wounds as Izanagi only reversed his death not any injuries sustained in the fight. This also adds up to what Itachi told Sasuke about Uchiha been able to use the technique in the past.

2. Incomplete (better): Utilized by a sharingan user with Senju DNA which would be how Danzō used the technique. Allowed him to activate the technique for up to a minute. (remembering Danzō didn't have complete control over Senju DNA).

3. Complete (best): Uchiha who has control over Senju DNA which is Obito's version. Allowed him to utilize the technique for longer and outlast Konan's attack.

So then to answer your question, based on the above speculations, an Uchiha can use Izanagi without Senju DNA however in order to utilize it to its full potential (extending the time span, potentially healing the eye again (as seen in Madara's case ) etc) then Senju DNA is required and for the best results, control over this Senju DNA is crucial.

Madara's case is different because what he used was an installment like Sasuke had.

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And the senju part being only to extend does not make sense because madara's lasted longee than Danzo and Tobi.
So it's just a mangekyo time delay jutsu that you can implant into your eye.

Kakashi never gotten chakra from Hagoromo. Dont fast to disagree. What Kakashi get from Obito is Rikudou chakra of Juubi and not Hagoromo. Hagoromo have his own Rikudou chakra signature, Juubi have his own.

It's the same thing considering that Hagormroo got his chakra from the juubi itself the progenitor of all types of chakra, kaguya.
Six path chakra is six path chakra and I'm sure it's the genetic inheritance that gave Tobi or Obito (as you call it) Six path chakra. The juubi gave him a huge reserves of natural energy that is rikudou senjutsu.

Obito said about it. But who you want to believe or which instances -> Uchiha Madara's story or Uchiha Obito's words?

That was never uchiha madara's story, that was black zetsu. And black zetsu himself said madara used an installment. So both Black zetsu and Tobi is right.

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[Sagebee]

They didn't go through training they just used rikudou coffin seal technique to use rikudou senjutsu at its best as jinchuurikis.
Not sure of the other part you said though.

For reincarnates to awaken the rinnegn. There have been other people who gained rikudou chakra but did not awsaken the rinnegan.


Yes that was in the mist of war. It was Kin and Gin vs leaf and cloud war, and Hashirama's early databook said that he also died in war but never specified.


Maybe, that could be it


Kishi needs to explain the mechanics behind it though



Hashirama chakra that is already in Madara's body. He has it in his left chest to prove this.
You cannot use sagemode at all if it's not already mixed with your chakra. You'll die and with frog sage mode you'll just turn into a stone.
Everything else you're saying doesn't even make sense and are assumptions with no prove at all.

That's what I meant Kakashi didn't awaken a full rinnegan I believe because he doesn't have okutsuki dna which I believe is a requirement.

 

[Rikudou Tobi]

That's what I meant Kakashi didn't awaken a full rinnegan I believe because he doesn't have okutsuki dna which I believe is a requirement.

Hagormoo said that only Indra reincarnates had the potential to awaken one. Kinshiki who is an Otsursuki along with Kaguya and Hamura are also unable to awaken the rinnegan despite having Six path chakra.

 

[BenjerminGaye]

Half the problems youre complaining about would have been easily avoided if hagoromo didn't have a huge ass ego to name the chakra after himself. Especially since it predates him.

 

[Legendary Broly]

True, he may not have the dna. The soul at peace is a valid point but Kabuto never knew that Kakashi was already at peace with his dad so it could be just a dna thing.

Whose to say he didn't try to revive him and it didn't work. But meh, we can only speculate on this one.

Madara's case is different because what he used was an installment like Sasuke had.

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And the senju part being only to extend does not make sense because madara's lasted longee than Danzo and Tobi.
So it's just a mangekyo time delay jutsu that you can implant into your eye.

What I meant is the Senju DNA allows the effects to last longer. For instance, turn a longer period of time into an illusion. So in Danzō's case he was able to turn a full minute of reality into an illusion, where as Obito could turn 10 whole minutes that went by into an illusion.

As for Madara's case he pre-set Izanagi to activate after his death. As you have posted it is possible for MS jutsu to be preset to activate at a later time. However, there is a huge difference between Izanagi that was preset by Madara to activate later compared to what Obito and Danzō showed which was the actual duration of the jutsu lasting longer.

Madara's Izanagi literally only turned that brief moment of time which was his death into an illusion. He did not turn anything more into an illusion as indicated by the fact that he was still gravely wounded from the fight when he was revived. The only thing reversed was his death.

On the other hand Obito reversed 10 minutes of reality not just one brief moment as Madara did.