If their able to hit each other Ace would definately win. Ace is underrated because we didn't see much of him. Had it been Ace instead of Luffy in skypiea fighting Enel, Ace would of won with fair ease.
Remember. El Thor isn't as strong as it seems. Pagaya survived from an El Thor. Ace's Hiken is stronger then El Thor by a mile. Entei>Anything Enel can do. Entei would actually be an overkill. Ace is a tank so Enel would have some serious trouble putting him down.
Back in Alabasta he was only trying to buy some time and played with Smoker. If Enel made Ace mad like make fun of WB then Ace would oneshot with Entei. As we know, Enel can't take a punch.
Can Ace travel over large distances in a flash? Enel can.
Does Ace use Haki? He hasn't shown any ability to (except the Haoushoku Haki but it was only one time). Enel's Mantra is THE single best.
El Thor not killing other people like Pagaya is nothing more but artistic license. Oda doesn't like killing. Also, it's faster than anything Ace can pull off. Hiken hasn't killed any of the Billions either, if you want to be technical.
Or how about the fact that Akainu's magma is hotter than Ace's fire? I'm sure lighting is hotter than fire too. It's hotter than the sun, I know.
Enel has a lot of physical combat ability, he just lost his bearings because he's never encountered Luffy, his weakness, before. Just check out how he used the gold in his ship to his advantage. That's thinking in the midst of crisis. I've yet to see a lightning user in popular media (before you bring up people from niche shows like Railgun and stuff) use the heat of their lighting to their advantage like Enel does. It's always usually speed and shock.
Say they're both intangible. Lightning is hotter than fire. Both tangible you say? Enel teleports out of Ace's reach and brings El Thor after El Thor while eating sandwiches for breakfast, curry for lunch, and a Milky Way for dinner.
There's really nothing that puts Ace on top of Enel. Nothing.
Can Ace travel over large distances in a flash? Enel can.
Does Ace use Haki? He hasn't shown any ability to (except the Haoushoku Haki but it was only one time). Enel's Mantra is THE single best.
El Thor not killing other people like Pagaya is nothing more but artistic license. Oda doesn't like killing. Also, it's faster than anything Ace can pull off. Hiken hasn't killed any of the Billions either, if you want to be technical.
Or how about the fact that Akainu's magma is hotter than Ace's fire? I'm sure lighting is hotter than fire too. It's hotter than the sun, I know.
Enel has a lot of physical combat ability, he just lost his bearings because he's never encountered Luffy, his weakness, before. Just check out how he used the gold in his ship to his advantage. That's thinking in the midst of crisis. I've yet to see a lightning user in popular media (before you bring up people from niche shows like Railgun and stuff) use the heat of their lighting to their advantage like Enel does. It's always usually speed and shock.
Say they're both intangible. Lightning is hotter than fire. Both tangible you say? Enel teleports out of Ace's reach and brings El Thor after El Thor while eating sandwiches for breakfast, curry for lunch, and a Milky Way for dinner.
There's really nothing that puts Ace on top of Enel. Nothing.
Can Ace travel over large distances in a flash? Enel can.
Does Ace use Haki? He hasn't shown any ability to (except the Haoushoku Haki but it was only one time). Enel's Mantra is THE single best.
El Thor not killing other people like Pagaya is nothing more but artistic license. Oda doesn't like killing. Also, it's faster than anything Ace can pull off. Hiken hasn't killed any of the Billions either, if you want to be technical.
Or how about the fact that Akainu's magma is hotter than Ace's fire? I'm sure lighting is hotter than fire too. It's hotter than the sun, I know.
Enel has a lot of physical combat ability, he just lost his bearings because he's never encountered Luffy, his weakness, before. Just check out how he used the gold in his ship to his advantage. That's thinking in the midst of crisis. I've yet to see a lightning user in popular media (before you bring up people from niche shows like Railgun and stuff) use the heat of their lighting to their advantage like Enel does. It's always usually speed and shock.
Say they're both intangible. Lightning is hotter than fire. Both tangible you say? Enel teleports out of Ace's reach and brings El Thor after El Thor while eating sandwiches for breakfast, curry for lunch, and a Milky Way for dinner.
There's really nothing that puts Ace on top of Enel. Nothing.
Raigou? Lol. Enel needs Maxim and time in order to create Raigou so that already is irrelevant in this fight.
@2nd bold
No. El Thor not killing Pagaya simply means that it wasn't strong enough. Sanji tanked 2 El thor's. Also Ace's Hiken not killing anyone is because he never used it in order to kill anyone as Ace doesn't kill unless necessary.
@3rd Bold
That has nothing to do with this. But if you want to go there then Fire is actually hotter then magma as fire can reach temperatures higher then magma. Entei would be hotter then anything Akainu does. Akainu wasn't able to kill Ace because Magma is "hotter" because it's not. He was able to kill Ace because his magma smothered Ace's fire and fire needs oxygen.
Fire-Oxygen+Magma= Fire is replaced with magma.
@4th Bold
Lol. No. Enel has no skill when it comes to physical combat. The only reason why he was able to even fight Luffy in close combat was because he had a trident and because of CoO.
Which Luffy easily made irrelevant by simply not thinking as CoO requires you to read someones mind in order to predict their movements. Then Enel got fodderized. When it comes to physical combat Ace still tops.
Ace has been trained his whole life by Garp in physical combat. He was with Garp for 17 years so he would atleast be Luffy's level in CC (he used to fodderize Luffy on a daily basis). Vanauger himself stated that Ace's fighting skills in physical combat are as you would expect from a 2nd division commander of the WB pirates. So if your even hinting that Enel>Ace in physical combat...LAWL! Adding to that, Enel can't take a punch.
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While Ace is a known tank and is known for his extraordinary superhuman strength. If Ace was to punch Enel, Enel would go down and stay down.
@5th Bold
Lightning being hotter then fire is irrelevant for the reason that i already stated. Enel teleports out of Ace's reach and brings forth El Thor you say? That's not possible.
1. Enel doesn't teleport
2. Enel going out of Ace's reach would only make it easier for Ace to dodge El Thor+ Ace can launch himself and travel as fire making him a hell alot faster.
3. Enel will be put down before he realises that Ace is too strong for him and he has to resort to El Thoring him from a distance. <Overconfidence will be his undoing.
4. Once Enel sees something unexpected he freaks out which causes him to not be able to think straight.
If you meant strongest, then Raigou is stronger than Entei. If you meant bigger, then Raigou is bigger than Entei. There is no way you meant speed. Besides, Enel needed Maxim to make a Raigou that would destroy an area far larger than Banaro Island. He wanted to destroy Skypeia itself (eg. Angel Beach, Heaven's Gate, Shandia Village, Shandora Ruins). So if you meant destructive capacity and area of effect, Raigou is still superior.
No. El Thor not killing Pagaya simply means that it wasn't strong enough. Sanji tanked 2 El thor's. Also Ace's Hiken not killing anyone is because he never used it in order to kill anyone as Ace doesn't kill unless necessary.
That has nothing to do with this. But if you want to go there then Fire is actually hotter then magma as fire can reach temperatures higher then magma. Entei would be hotter then anything Akainu does. Akainu wasn't able to kill Ace because Magma is "hotter" because it's not. He was able to kill Ace because his magma smothered Ace's fire and fire needs oxygen.
Here's my hint to you: that interpretation is from several forums around the internet. Forgive me if I can't provide a scan because I don't know which chapter it's from, but I'm pretty sure it said that magma was hotter than fire.
Here's the story. A lot of people couldn't accept Oda's logic of magma being hotter than fire as a reason to why Ace died. There could have been a number of reasons.
Ace solidified his body to protect Luffy from Akainu.
Akainu used Haki.
Magma smothered out the flames from Ace's fire.
Magma is a superior variant of the same kind of Devil Fruit, the same way Akainu's Hie is superior to Monet's Yuki.
A bunch of other different reasons to justify the action
I personally think Ace solidified his body OR Akainu used Haki, but Oda gave the reason of magma is hotter than fire. It's not sound logic, but that's the logic Oda had and I stick with it, unless of course it's so blatantly obtuse that the general consensus is to ignore it (Kuma's Paw Paw Fruit is light speed).
Just to be clear, I don't buy the logic either. Let's just say that Ace's fire is either cooler than normal fire or Akainu's magma is hotter than normal magma. Then again, maybe Oda is striving for artistic license once again, because you'd be more terrified of magma than you'd do with fire.
The point is, Ace can be beaten by Devil Fruits hotter than his, and lightning is far hotter than fire. Case closed.
Lol. No. Enel has no skill when it comes to physical combat. The only reason why he was able to even fight Luffy in close combat was because he had a trident and because of CoO.
Which Luffy easily made irrelevant by simply not thinking as CoO requires you to read someones mind in order to predict their movements. Then Enel got fodderized. When it comes to physical combat Ace still tops.
Ace has been trained his whole life by Garp in physical combat. He was with Garp for 17 years so he would atleast be Luffy's level in CC (he used to fodderize Luffy on a daily basis). Vanauger himself stated that Ace's fighting skills in physical combat are as you would expect from a 2nd division commander of the WB pirates. So if your even hinting that Enel>Ace in physical combat...LAWL! Adding to that, Enel can't take a punch.
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While Ace is a known tank and is known for his extraordinary superhuman strength. If Ace was to punch Enel, Enel would go down and stay down.
Enel has no physical combat ... using a weapon in melee is not physical combat? Swords clashing against each other is not physical combat? Besides, why would you equate Luffy with Ace? Luffy was Enel's weakness; Ace can't even touch Enel.
Your scan even says it all: "Eneru had probably never thought that such a man could exist!"
Enel wasn't in top form at all during his fight with Luffy. He was distracted by lots of things:
Keeping the Maxim in condition.
Finding Fairy Vearth.
Dealing with Luffy.
Being in shock because he never thought he'd meet his natural enemy.
Dealing with sabotage.
Enel was a great trident user. He knew how to use his heat in order to make Luffy suffer not just from cuts, but from burns too. There's also the fact that he's made Luffy fail time and time again. He fell to a persistent fighter, not a super superior physical fighter like Crocodile did, because he has Mantra for things like that.
You also make it like Enel could only take one hit from Luffy. From my head, before that Ougon Rifle which defeated him at last, he took a sucker punch (or kick), and a gatling. Enel's another Logia that Pekoms said was too confident in his abilities, that his skill to take a punch diminished. He was the original Caribou. To be fair, at that point in the story he was nigh-untouchable, even by dials.
Enel was knocked out not just by physical harm, but by mental stress too. At the time he was finally defeated, his plan was falling apart on his own eyes (his Raigou dissipated, his Maxim destroyed, his dream to become "God" is really just a dream now). That's why you cannot hold Enel's defeat against him. He was being ganged up by practically everyone.
That's why pitting Ace, the fiery wonder boy without Haki, against Enel, the guy who cannot be hit if you don't have the necessary tools, is moot.
@5th Bold
Lightning being hotter then fire is irrelevant for the reason that i already stated. Enel teleports out of Ace's reach and brings forth El Thor you say? That's not possible.
1. Enel doesn't teleport
2. Enel going out of Ace's reach would only make it easier for Ace to dodge El Thor+ Ace can launch himself and travel as fire making him a hell alot faster.
3. Enel will be put down before he realises that Ace is too strong for him and he has to resort to El Thoring him from a distance. <Overconfidence will be his undoing.
4. Once Enel sees something unexpected he freaks out which causes him to not be able to think straight.
2. Enel going out of Ace's reach would only make it easier for Ace to dodge El Thor+ Ace can launch himself and travel as fire making him a hell alot faster.
Traveling as fire? You mean when he jumped over the Billions' ships before unleashing Hiken? Surely you jest.
3. Enel will be put down before he realises that Ace is too strong for him and he has to resort to El Thoring him from a distance. <Overconfidence will be his undoing.
Let's make Ace have Busoshoku Haki and Kenbunshoku Haki at first, hmm?
4. Once Enel sees something unexpected he freaks out which causes him to not be able to think straight.
He totally expects that Ace will be defeated, which is totally happen.
I'm sorry if I come off as a bit of a b!tch here, but why chase a topic that's clearly out of your hands? Let's summarize my points off as a TL;DR version of Ace vs Enel.
Enel has Mantra. Ace doesn't have any Haki variant to show.
Oda has stated that Ace's DF can be defeated by things hotter than it. Lightning is hotter than fire.
Enel can travel as electricity. Ace cannot, and fire is slower than lightning.
El Thor has the largest range of any other attack I've seen in One Piece, if you don't count the aftershocks from Whitebeard's earthquakes. Ace's longest reaching attack, the Hiken, needs a visual.
If you meant strongest, then Raigou is stronger than Entei. If you meant bigger, then Raigou is bigger than Entei. There is no way you meant speed. Besides, Enel needed Maxim to make a Raigou that would destroy an area far larger than Banaro Island. He wanted to destroy Skypeia itself (eg. Angel Beach, Heaven's Gate, Shandia Village, Shandora Ruins). So if you meant destructive capacity and area of effect, Raigou is still superior.
I didn't mean size. I was talking about destructive capacity and AOE. Enel needs maxim in order to create raigou. That's like saying Goku can beat Ace because he can use Stardust breaker...Show me a scan that shows Enel doing Raigou without Maxim and i'll believe you.
No, you're just using personal interpretation here. Also double standards.
•El Thor not killing Pagaya and Sanji = Not strong enough.
•Ace not killing Billions (BW generic thugs) = Ace doesn't kill unless necessary.
Yes. The fact that Ace doesn't kill can be put in this argument since Ace hasn't used Hiken on ordinary people. Throughout the whole series he only used it three times. 1. Against Akainu (akainu smothered it before Ace could launch the attack) 2. Against BB (absorbed it) and 3. Against division full of marine ships. We don't know what happened to the marines so it could easily be possible that they either died or sunk along with the ship (Ace aimed at the ships). Whereas Enel has used El Thor multiple times but hasn't killed anyone with it. Used it on Sanji twice, point blank.
Enel wasn't in top form at all during his fight with Luffy. He was distracted by lots of things:
•Keeping the Maxim in condition.
•Finding Fairy Vearth.
•Dealing with Luffy.
•Being in shock because he never thought he'd meet his natural enemy.
•Dealing with sabotage.
No. All that was/is irrelevant. Enel wasn't distracted at that point and time. Even if he was that shouldn't be the reason why he went down from one kick. At that point everything was going according to plan. Before Luffy showed up Enel had never gotten punched in his life. I could say the same thing about Ace.
Ace could of easily tanked Akainu's magma punch and lolstomped Akainu before it if it wasn't for him being distracted by the following reasons.
- He was worried about Luffy's safety
- He was worried about WB since he was sick and getting ganged up on
- The cookies he left in the oven
- He was worried about not ever seeing Luffy fulfill his dreams
- Derp...
Here's my hint to you: that interpretation is from several forums around the internet. Forgive me if I can't provide a scan because I don't know which chapter it's from, but I'm pretty sure it said that magma was hotter than fire.
Here's the story. A lot of people couldn't accept Oda's logic of magma being hotter than fire as a reason to why Ace died. There could have been a number of reasons.
•Ace solidified his body to protect Luffy from Akainu.
•Akainu used Haki.
•Magma smothered out the flames from Ace's fire.
•Magma is a superior variant of the same kind of Devil Fruit, the same way Akainu's Hie is superior to Monet's Yuki.
•A bunch of other different reasons to justify the action
I personally think Ace solidified his body OR Akainu used Haki, but Oda gave the reason of magma is hotter than fire. It's not sound logic, but that's the logic Oda had and I stick with it, unless of course it's so blatantly obtuse that the general consensus is to ignore it (Kuma's Paw Paw Fruit is light speed).
Just to be clear, I don't buy the logic either. Let's just say that Ace's fire is either cooler than normal fire or Akainu's magma is hotter than normal magma. Then again, maybe Oda is striving for artistic license once again, because you'd be more terrified of magma than you'd do with fire.
The point is, Ace can be beaten by Devil Fruits hotter than his, and lightning is far hotter than fire. Case closed.
It was never stated that he killed Ace because his magma is simply hotter then fire. Some fodder in the background yelled Ace got "burned". Then Akainu explained that the reason he was able to kill Ace was because magma consumes fire. Now excuse me while i directly quote from the wiki.
His ability is naturally of a higher order than Ace's pyrokinetic abilities, as the higher heat and smothering abilities of his magma allowed him to successfully harm Ace despite Ace's Logia-defense,
Last time i checked, lightning can't smother fire. Akainu's magma has been shown to be the only element superior to Ace's fire. Unless i see Enel "burn" Ace. It can't happen as heat isn't enough. If you can show me a scan or a statement from Oda himself that says Heat is enough to beat Ace then i'll buy it for now.
Ohh and btw OP logic.
Elemental weakness is irrelevant in One piece.
Ace's and Aokiji's attacks cancelled each other out.
Aokiji and Akainu fought for 10 days. By
Real logic:
Fire>Magma>Ice
OP logic:
Magma>Fire
Fire=Ice
Magma=Ice
OP logic is different so assuming that Lightning>Fire is false.
Traveling as fire? You mean when he jumped over the Billions' ships before unleashing Hiken? Surely you jest.
Similar to Smoker and every logia who's element isn't solid. Ace can travel as Fire in the air.
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Also in WB's and Ace's flashback there were plenty of scenes where Ace launched himself in the air as fire but since the flashback in the manga is shorter and those scenes are nowhere to be found in the manga i won't use them as arguments.
Let's make Ace have Busoshoku Haki and Kenbunshoku Haki at first, ?
Enel doesn't have CoA either... Also. Going by that. If these two fight each other without even being able to hurt each other. Ace would eventually win. Since they can't hurt each other it all comes down to who runs out of gas first, Ace's stamina is one of the best we've seen in the whole series.
He fought Jinbe for 5 days and collapsed only after Jinbe did. Even then after WB showed up minutes later, Ace stood up for another round and this time with WB. <<Stamina freak. Enel loses. Luffy was able to stop Enel from predicting Luffy's movements by simply not thinking as your required to read someones mind in order to predict their movements. What's stopping Ace from doing the same?
He totally expects that Ace will be defeated, which is totally happen.
Remember when Wiper was about to use the dial on Enel. Even though Enel was intangible he freaked out. Enel isn't vary that there are other Logia's and that there are other intangible people.
Enel's attacks not working on Ace will cause Enel to get shocked which will cause him to get distracted thus he won't be able to focus since he knows he can't damage Ace. THUS. Causing Ace to be able to hit Enel as in order to turn intangible a Logia has to be aware of the attack and react to it. Intangibility needs focus.
Some (like Crocodile and Ace) have trained their logia's to such extents that their able to turn intangible by reflex. Otherwise the attack would just hit their physical body.
1.Enel has Mantra. Ace doesn't have any Haki variant to show.
Ace can travel as fire. Enel flying away to spam El Thor won't matter because.
1. Long distance, easier to dodge
2. Short distance, easier to tag
3. Ace tanks
4. Intangible
4.El Thor has the largest range of any other attack I've seen in One Piece, if you don't count the aftershocks from Whitebeard's earthquakes. Ace's longest reaching attack, the Hiken, needs a visual.
I didn't mean size. I was talking about destructive capacity and AOE. Enel needs maxim in order to create raigou. That's like saying Goku can beat Ace because he can use Stardust breaker...Show me a scan that shows Enel doing Raigou without Maxim and i'll believe you.
I don't need to show you a scan because it's common sense. Raigou is bigger than Entei, you never said anything about Maxim, and at this point you're just holding on to straws because you forgot about Raigou.
Yes. The fact that Ace doesn't kill can be put in this argument since Ace hasn't used Hiken on ordinary people. Throughout the whole series he only used it three times. 1. Against Akainu (akainu smothered it before Ace could launch the attack) 2. Against BB (absorbed it) and 3. Against division full of marine ships. We don't know what happened to the marines so it could easily be possible that they either died or sunk along with the ship (Ace aimed at the ships). Whereas Enel has used El Thor multiple times but hasn't killed anyone with it. Used it on Sanji twice, point blank.
Fallacy here, strawman there. Hiken has never killed anyone like El Thor period. Artistic license. Quakes have never killed anyone either. Your point is horribly biased and invalid.
No. All that was/is irrelevant. Enel wasn't distracted at that point and time. Even if he was that shouldn't be the reason why he went down from one kick. At that point everything was going according to plan. Before Luffy showed up Enel had never gotten punched in his life. I could say the same thing about Ace.
Ace could of easily tanked Akainu's magma punch and lolstomped Akainu before it if it wasn't for him being distracted by the following reasons.
- He was worried about Luffy's safety
- He was worried about WB since he was sick and getting ganged up on
- The cookies he left in the oven
- He was worried about not ever seeing Luffy fulfill his dreams
- Derp...
Enel had reason to become distracted. All you're doing for Ace is imagining he's equal to Akainu. Get real. Your bullet points aren't even valid, because all he worried about was Luffy's safety at that point. Come on, don't just throw flimsy arguments at me.
It was never stated that he killed Ace because his magma is simply hotter then fire. Some fodder in the background yelled Ace got "burned". Then Akainu explained that the reason he was able to kill Ace was because magma consumes fire. Now excuse me while i directly quote from the wiki.
Last time i checked, lightning can't smother fire. Akainu's magma has been shown to be the only element superior to Ace's fire. Unless i see Enel "burn" Ace. It can't happen as heat isn't enough. If you can show me a scan or a statement from Oda himself that says Heat is enough to beat Ace then i'll buy it for now.
Ohh and btw OP logic.
Elemental weakness is irrelevant in One piece.
Ace's and Aokiji's attacks cancelled each other out.
Aokiji and Akainu fought for 10 days. By
Real logic:
Fire>Magma>Ice
OP logic:
Magma>Fire
Fire=Ice
Magma=Ice
OP logic is different so assuming that Lightning>Fire is false.
The Marine pointed out the obvious; Magma burned fire. It's safe to say anything hotter will "burn" fire as well.
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I used a different translation, and now it makes sense. Both iterations of Marines said something about Ace "burning", and your translation says "Magma smothers fire" and mine says "Lava burns fire". It wouldn't make sense to something to "burn" another something if it wasn't hotter. I know it doesn't make sense in the real world, but please, come now. You're inventing your own logic, and even joining in ice which doesn't matter.
Similar to Smoker and every logia who's element isn't solid. Ace can travel as Fire in the air.
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Also in WB's and Ace's flashback there were plenty of scenes where Ace launched himself in the air as fire but since the flashback in the manga is shorter and those scenes are nowhere to be found in the manga i won't use them as arguments.
Enel doesn't have CoA either... Also. Going by that. If these two fight each other without even being able to hurt each other. Ace would eventually win. Since they can't hurt each other it all comes down to who runs out of gas first, Ace's stamina is one of the best we've seen in the whole series.
He fought Jinbe for 5 days and collapsed only after Jinbe did. Even then after WB showed up minutes later, Ace stood up for another round and this time with WB. <<Stamina freak. Enel loses. Luffy was able to stop Enel from predicting Luffy's movements by simply not thinking as your required to read someones mind in order to predict their movements. What's stopping Ace from doing the same?
Luffy won because of plot. If Enel took Luffy seriously he would have vacated the ship, put holes into the island first, and made Luffy fall down to the Blue Sea. But no, he was preoccupied by his delusions and Maxim. What's stopping from Ace from doing the same? This time Enel won't be distracted, Enel knows he does great damage from afar, and Enel knows that he's faster than Ace. Period.
Remember when Wiper was about to use the dial on Enel. Even though Enel was intangible he freaked out. Enel isn't vary that there are other Logia's and that there are other intangible people.
Enel's attacks not working on Ace will cause Enel to get shocked which will cause him to get distracted thus he won't be able to focus since he knows he can't damage Ace. THUS. Causing Ace to be able to hit Enel as in order to turn intangible a Logia has to be aware of the attack and react to it. Intangibility needs focus.
Some (like Crocodile and Ace) have trained their logia's to such extents that their able to turn intangible by reflex. Otherwise the attack would just hit their physical body.
Ace cannot disperse by reflex. Alabasta proved it to us. Dispersing by reflex is what Akainu did. And don't say it was because he was distracted by eating. You are ridiculous, giving Ace things he doesn't have.
All the proof up there, bub. If Magma really took away oxygen and not burnt fire, then the Marine should have said something like, "Ace's flame is gone!?" But no, he said, "Ace was burned." Or something similar.
The reason Akainu was able to burn Ace after overpowering his fire was because he was using Armament Haki, same reason he could punch a hole in his chest through his back and cause him to bleed from his normal flesh and blood body. Enel doesn't have that neither does Ace so even if I'd say Enel wins if they weren't intangible because Lightning>Fire. This fight becomes a stalemate of both just throwing attacks around with neither getting the upper hand.
