[VS] A vs Tsunade

[Narusenpou]

tsuna wins low diff

 

[Beans2]

Ay blitzes

 

[Tazzilla88]

This again?
So, Tsunade still wins. 16 and a half feet is pretty close and the odds of Tsunade being blitzed are good. But there are ways to counteract a speed blitz. Tsunade was continually able to keep up with Ay's v2 speed visually when watching Naruto and Ay fight. In fact, the only time she could not clearly depict someone moving is when Naruto, the faster of the two, became a yellow flash. So the idea that Tsunade won't be able to see Ay is immediately thrown out of the window. The next question is can she react to his speeds? The answer is definitely yes, for two solid examples of such. The first example is when Raikage was about to punch Naruto. In complete alarm, as soon as his fist started moving, Tsunade began to run. Now, obviously her foot speed is not great enough to have reached Naruto before Ay's fist would have, but her reaction speed was fast enough to throw her into motion before Ay's attack connected. And Ay and Naruto were maybe a meter apart.

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This handily proves that anything short of V2 Tsunade can react to. The next feat to discuss is the combination attack with Ay, Oonoki an Madara.

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How does this team attack prove that Tsunade can react to Ay? Didn't Mei also perform a team attack with Ay? In the three kage combination attack, it would have been impossible for Tsunade to have predicted where Madara's susanoo was before Ay and Oonoki's attack. How so? Tsunade sent the susanoo flying in one direction, Mei completely changed the velocity of the susanoo, then when Ay and Oonoki attacked, they changed the speed and directionality of the susanoo yet again. Meaning Tsunade could not have attacked until the third variable was worked out. Otherwise she would have randomly soaring through the air. Thus, this attack serves as both a speed feat and reaction speed feat.
Now as to Mei performing an attack with Ay, the necessary speed and reaction feats were Ay's and not Mei's. The demand to have the right timing and location was put on Ay's shoulders. Why? Mei spat Lava at Madara, Ay attempted to blitz Madara, head on and Ay landed atop Madara's susanoo. Once Mei figured out where Madara, was going to land, she needed only to spew her lava there. She didn't not need to account for the proper speed for the lava to land in that location. Thus the two feats are completely different.
We've been talking a lot in this thread about base speed. When Madara fired his dragon technique, all kages were at base and Tsunade was definitively at her limit. Yet not only was she the first to react, but if you look at the distance she traveled in comparison to the distance Base Ay traveled you'll find that she moved further than he did. Additionally, for the reaction feat one may say that kages expected Mei or Tsunade to handle the attack but the shock on Mei's face tells a different story.

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If Ay's base speed had been so impressive, he should have easily gotten to Tsunade in time. This is not to say that Ay isn't fast but the majority of his speed comes from his lightning cloak.

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Finally point I was to highlight with speed is that many characters have avoided being blitzed by him.
Sharingan users: Madara

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Obito

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Sasuke

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Non sharingan users: Juugo

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Suigetsu

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Jinchurikiis: Bee and Naruto
Now to discuss whether or not Tsunade could withstand Ay's attacks we've twice been shown the power of a Yasaka Magatama. Once when Itachi used it to help destroy Chibaku Tensei, in which he referred to it as his most powerful distance technique. And again when Madara wanted to test the kages defensive abilities, in which he called their defense impressive. Despite the attack almost making it through the two layered defense. Thus, we can appreciate that yasaka magatama was portrayed as a very destructive attack. Be that as it may, Tsunade took three to the abdomen and was fine immediately afterward. Despite this always being a matter of debate the Viz manga highlights Tsunade's survival from Ethereal Transmission jutsu as a durability feat. Mabui states happen to bodies as they travel at the speeds the Ethereal Transmission Jutsu is transports things at. She says, "The Body Just cannot keep up, and one just comes cut and torn apart and dead on the other side!"

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Now some may say that Mabui was just speaking theoretically, despite the fact that she prefaces her statement with the assertion "We do know" which points to the inference it has been tried before. But then Kishi gives his reader more clues that it has been tried before. She says "The only one who has ever successfully traveled using this jutsu is the Third Raikage!"

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Thus, again implying the other had tried unsuccessfully. And Kishi even goes as so far to state that durability is necessary to survive. Some of you may say, "Fine, She survived, but only due to medical ninjutsu." But the Manga disagrees. Before the teleportation Tsunade had not opened her seal

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She can be seen releasing it after having arrived

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Further, Tsunade referred to the wounds received as not too bad which is a far cry from lethal.

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The argument in regards to stamina shall be a short one, Tsunade reached her limit around the same time in which Ay no longer had his ration cloak, and this is after using healing jutsu and donating chakra to 3 of the 4 other kage. Ergo, like Ay she's a stamina beast.

Thus since Tsunade can react to Ay's speed, and she has tanked stronger attacks than he can dish out. Stamina isn't a concern in this battle I think that Tsunade should come out victorious, however, the nature of this post has been highly defensive in nature ad the argument that now needs to made is that Tsunade has what it takes to take Ay down. Now, Tsunade's strength is tiers above anything Ay can do, even with Oonoki's help Tsunade is still the stronger of the two by a decent margin. Ay's durability feats include getting stabbed by chidori with only about two inches of penetration and withstanding the Ethereal Transmission jutsu. So he has not taken any attack on the scale of Tsunade's punches or kicks. The closest thing that we can compare it to is the mini Buddha statue, which Mei got hit by as well. Additionally, nothing suggests that those punches were on the same scale as Tsunade and Sakura's attacks. And even if they were, the beauty of Tsunade's attack is that he hits such a small area with so much force the effects are exaggerated compared to an attack that hits one's entire body. Thus, in strength Tsunade very clearly has the advantage. And as history has shown us se has no trouble altering the terrain, so that a opponent charging toward might lose their footing. In terms of overall taijutsu ability, Tsunade showed more competency in taijutsu in part 1 alone than Ay did at any point in the manga. Ay has a very one dimensional fighting style essentially grab, smash, rinse, repeat. Whereas Tsunade has more in her inventory, and is certainly the more acrobatic between the two. Being a medic she also has a precise knowledge of the body which she took advantage against Naruto, which again diversifies her taijutsu portfolio. If we speak of jutsus displayed Tsunade has shown more of those as well. She has displayed an A rank lightning technique, S class fuuinjutsu, and S-Class Medical Ninjutsu. Not to mention that beyond lighting the databook says she has proficiency in three other elements. In ninjutsu, Tsunade has more options than Ay. Not to forget her summoning jutsu as well.

There is only one area in which Ay outclasses Tsunade and it's speed. And this one area of inferiority is without a doubt overcomeable by Tsunade.

 

[Strict]

Tsunade can react to Ay's speed when the Sharingan has trouble doing so? Oh boi kill yourself.

Ay slaps her.

 

[Icelerate]

Tsunade can react to Ay's speed when the Sharingan has trouble doing so? Oh boi kill yourself.

Ay slaps her.

So are you implying that every single non sharingan user can't react to speeds that a certain sharingan user at a particular time failed to do so. I guess Minato gets blitzed as well considering he has no sharingan. Oh wait...

Ay wins mid difficulty. Pretty sure Ay can chop off Tsunade arms and then decapitate and defenceless Tsunade.

 

[Strict]

So are you implying that every single non sharingan user can't react to speeds that a certain sharingan user at a particular time failed to do so. I guess Minato gets blitzed as well considering he has no sharingan. Oh wait...

Why even starting this nonsense when you exactly know what I mean? In order to react to Ay, you by yourself need a supreme speed and reaction. And we both know that Tsunade has neither impressive speed nor reaction.

If Tsunade really would have such feats, it would be enough to prove it with a single or two scans instead of trying to prove it by writing a huge tome. Tsunade's canon speed is when she ran after Orochimaru and Kabuto for an extended period. Or when she ran towards Madara with Byakugo activated and kept a long dialogue until finally leaving 50 meters behind.

 

[Icelerate]

Why even starting this nonsense when you exactly know what I mean? In order to react to Ay, you by yourself need a supreme speed and reaction. And we both know that Tsunade has neither impressive speed nor reaction.

Based on what exactly?

If Tsunade really would have such feats, it would be enough to prove it with a single or two scans instead of trying to prove it by writing a huge tome. Tsunade's canon speed is when she ran after Orochimaru and Kabuto for a extended period. Or when she ran towards Madara with Byakugo activated and kept a long dialogue until finally leaving 50 meters behind.

Tsunade was rusty in part one. I guess Itachi is slow because he failed to dodge Sasuke's shuriken.

Nor does a conversation prove your point as Tsunade was able to

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when Ay was right next to Naruto, telling him to stop whereas Tsunade had to travel a 50 distance in comparison.

 

[Strict]

Based on her never or rarely dodging an opponents blow.

Feats are something shown on panel, where the reader unambiguously understands that said character is a speedster, whether through actual feats or direct (not indirect) hype from characters.

Feats are nothing you can piece together at will.

 

[Icelerate]

Based on her never or rarely dodging an opponents blow.

It depends on who the opponents are and how fast they are. Suppose a certain character only clashes with extremely fast characters, that doesn't mean they are slower than a certain character who clashed with far slower people. I do agree that Tsunade won't be able to react to Ay's speed continuously, at least not physically. Though your argument on a certain sharingan user not being able to perceive Ay at one moment doesn't mean no other non sharingan user can. That would be blatant wank of the sharingan but due to Sasuke being naturally faster than Tsunade on foot and even without sharingan, I agree with your premise though I wouldn't ignore the possibility of Tsunade being able to react to Ay at certain times.

Feats are something shown on panel, where the reader unambiguously understands that said character is a speedster, whether through actual feats or direct (not indirect) hype from characters.

One doesn't have to be a speedster to react to a speedster. One can show speed feats even if they aren't speedsters, doesn't mean we should ignore them completely.

Feats are nothing you can piece together at will.

Okay.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Why even starting this nonsense when you exactly know what I mean? In order to react to Ay, you by yourself need a supreme speed and reaction. And we both know that Tsunade has neither impressive speed nor reaction.

If Tsunade really would have such feats, it would be enough to prove it with a single or two scans instead of trying to prove it by writing a huge tome. Tsunade's canon speed is when she ran after Orochimaru and Kabuto for a extended period. Or when she ran towards Madara with Byakugo activated and kept a long dialogue until finally leaving 50 meters behind.

A few questions and a point of clarification. Are suigetsu and Juugo speedsters? Are Dodai and the fodder soldiers who reacted to he third raikage? Further, I provided pretty clear scans, the proble is that people interpret with a bias. Therefore the 'tomes' is to show that logically the scan cannot be denied, and that they paint a fluid picture as opposed to a freak occurrence.

Again there is difference between foot speed and reaction speed. Take Wonderwoman for example, she is definitively not as fast as Superman, yet when they've fought she's been able to consistently react to his speed.

Also now that we go back to part 1 for her cannon speed, she was out of shape. Perhaps you don't realize the gravity that carries. But as a former track runner I ran the 3200. Being out shape running it my time was about 19 minutes, but once I was in running shape my fastest time was 12.14. But she would have obviously been in shape in part 2 because in training Sakura she herself had use extraneous effort.

Speed and reaction speed have little correlation. I cannot stress this enough. One is measured by how quickly you're mind processes information and the other is a mechanical task.

Now as to Icelerate's post. Perhaps he can chop off an arm. Somehow, I feel if the person is able to react to you, doing whatever you want in a fight becomes much more difficult. For instance, I'm a kung fu instructor these days, and my students I can easily beat, I can take several on at once and still have a solid I can do pretty much whatever I want. And sometimes when I spar with other martial artist this is true. However, when I find someone near my skill level the fight looks a lot more chaotic because we are effectively countering each other's attempts. And thus while an armlock to a hip throw is easy against a lesser skilled martial artist against someone of my caliber it is quite difficult to pull off. And when my master and I spar, I now get manhandled and the skills which so easily defeats lesser opponents become pretty worthless. Thus this ties into my point in regard to reaction speed and her superior display of taijutsu feats.

Edit: I'd also argue that as Ay's attacks continue that Tsunade would be able to avoid more of them. Between reading patterns, her prowess for taijutsu, it would be likely that she'd more than able to successfully dodge more of his attacks.

Also 50 meters seems pretty short when you consider the 200 meter dash is only half way around a track.

 

[Icelerate]

Now as to Icelerate's post. Perhaps he can chop off an arm. Somehow, I feel if the person is able to react to you, doing whatever you want in a fight becomes much more difficult. For instance, I'm a kung fu instructor these days, and my students I can easily beat, I can take several on at once and still have a solid I can do pretty much whatever I want. And sometimes when I spar with other martial artist this is true. However, when I find someone near my skill level the fight looks a lot more chaotic because we are effectively countering each other's attempts. And thus while an armlock to a hip throw is easy against a lesser skilled martial artist against someone of my caliber it is quite difficult to pull off. And when my master and I spar, I now get manhandled and the skills which so easily defeats lesser opponents become pretty worthless. Thus this ties into my point in regard to reaction speed and her superior display of taijutsu feats.

You see, due to Ay being far superior in speed, he can force Tsunade to block his attacks. Tsunade may be able to react by moving her arms like

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but as you can see, Kabuto ended up hitting her chest instead and she could do nothing about it. I'm pretty sure the speed gap between Ay and Shippuden Tsunade is greater than the speed gap between part one Kabuto and part one Tsunade. If Ay hits Tsunade's arms directly, they'll get chopped off because her arms don't have the durability to withstand his raiton chops considering they chopped off his very own who is canonically more durable than Tsunade.

 

[Tazzilla88]

Please forgive me for recycling this argument, typing it over and over just seems pointless.There are ways to counteract a speed blitz. Tsunade was continually able to keep up with Ay's v2 speed visually when watching Naruto and Ay fight. In fact, the only time she could not clearly depict someone moving is when Naruto, the faster of the two, became a yellow flash. So the idea that Tsunade won't be able to see Ay is immediately thrown out of the window. The next question is can she react to his speeds? The answer is definitely yes, for two solid examples of such. The first example is when Raikage was about to punch Naruto. In complete alarm, as soon as his fist started moving, Tsunade began to run. Now, obviously her foot speed is not great enough to have reached Naruto before Ay's fist would have, but her reaction speed was fast enough to throw her into motion before Ay's attack connected. And Ay and Naruto were maybe a meter apart.

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This handily proves that anything short of V2 Tsunade can react to. The next feat to discuss is the combination attack with Ay, Oonoki an Madara.

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How does this team attack prove that Tsunade can react to Ay? Didn't Mei also perform a team attack with Ay? In the three kage combination attack, it would have been impossible for Tsunade to have predicted where Madara's susanoo was before Ay and Oonoki's attack. How so? Tsunade sent the susanoo flying in one direction, Mei completely changed the velocity of the susanoo, then when Ay and Oonoki attacked, they changed the speed and directionality of the susanoo yet again. Meaning Tsunade could not have attacked until the third variable was worked out. Otherwise she would have randomly soaring through the air. Thus, this attack serves as both a speed feat and reaction speed feat.
Now as to Mei performing an attack with Ay, the necessary speed and reaction feats were Ay's and not Mei's. The demand to have the right timing and location was put on Ay's shoulders. Why? Mei spat Lava at Madara, Ay attempted to blitz Madara, head on and Ay landed atop Madara's susanoo. Once Mei figured out where Madara, was going to land, she needed only to spew her lava there. She didn't not need to account for the proper speed for the lava to land in that location. Thus the two feats are completely different.
We've been talking a lot in this thread about base speed. When Madara fired his dragon technique, all kages were at base and Tsunade was definitively at her limit. Yet not only was she the first to react, but if you look at the distance she traveled in comparison to the distance Base Ay traveled you'll find that she moved further than he did. Additionally, for the reaction feat one may say that kages expected Mei or Tsunade to handle the attack but the shock on Mei's face tells a different story.

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If Ay's base speed had been so impressive, he should have easily gotten to Tsunade in time. This is not to say that Ay isn't fast but the majority of his speed comes from his lightning cloak.

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Finally point I was to highlight with speed is that many characters have avoided being blitzed by him.
Sharingan users: Madara

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Obito

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Sasuke

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Non sharingan users: Juugo

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Suigetsu

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Gaara:

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Jinchurikiis: Bee and Naruto
Now to discuss whether or not Tsunade could withstand Ay's attacks we've twice been shown the power of a Yasaka Magatama. Once when Itachi used it to help destroy Chibaku Tensei, in which he referred to it as his most powerful distance technique. And again when Madara wanted to test the kages defensive abilities, in which he called their defense impressive. Despite the attack almost making it through the two layered defense. Thus, we can appreciate that yasaka magatama was portrayed as a very destructive attack. Be that as it may, Tsunade took three to the abdomen and was fine immediately afterward. Despite this always being a matter of debate the Viz manga highlights Tsunade's survival from Ethereal Transmission jutsu as a durability feat. Mabui states happen to bodies as they travel at the speeds the Ethereal Transmission Jutsu is transports things at. She says, "The Body Just cannot keep up, and one just comes cut and torn apart and dead on the other side!"

Spoiler

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Now some may say that Mabui was just speaking theoretically, despite the fact that she prefaces her statement with the assertion "We do know" which points to the inference it has been tried before. But then Kishi gives his reader more clues that it has been tried before. She says "The only one who has ever successfully traveled using this jutsu is the Third Raikage!"

Spoiler

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Thus, again implying the other had tried unsuccessfully. And Kishi even goes as so far to state that durability is necessary to survive. Some of you may say, "Fine, She survived, but only due to medical ninjutsu." But the Manga disagrees. Before the teleportation Tsunade had not opened her seal

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She can be seen releasing it after having arrived

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Further, Tsunade referred to the wounds received as not too bad which is a far cry from lethal.

Spoiler

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The argument in regards to stamina shall be a short one, Tsunade reached her limit around the same time in which Ay no longer had his ration cloak, and this is after using healing jutsu and donating chakra to 3 of the 4 other kage. Ergo, like Ay she's a stamina beast.

Thus since Tsunade can react to Ay's speed, and she has tanked stronger attacks than he can dish out. Stamina isn't a concern in this battle I think that Tsunade should come out victorious, however, the nature of this post has been highly defensive in nature ad the argument that now needs to made is that Tsunade has what it takes to take Ay down. Now, Tsunade's strength is tiers above anything Ay can do, even with Oonoki's help Tsunade is still the stronger of the two by a decent margin. Ay's durability feats include getting stabbed by chidori with only about two inches of penetration and withstanding the Ethereal Transmission jutsu. So he has not taken any attack on the scale of Tsunade's punches or kicks. The closest thing that we can compare it to is the mini Buddha statue, which Mei got hit by as well. Additionally, nothing suggests that those punches were on the same scale as Tsunade and Sakura's attacks. And even if they were, the beauty of Tsunade's attack is that he hits such a small area with so much force the effects are exaggerated compared to an attack that hits one's entire body. Thus, in strength Tsunade very clearly has the advantage. And as history has shown us se has no trouble altering the terrain, so that a opponent charging toward might lose their footing. In terms of overall taijutsu ability, Tsunade showed more competency in taijutsu in part 1 alone than Ay did at any point in the manga. Ay has a very one dimensional fighting style essentially grab, smash, rinse, repeat. Whereas Tsunade has more in her inventory, and is certainly the more acrobatic between the two. Being a medic she also has a precise knowledge of the body which she took advantage against Naruto, which again diversifies her taijutsu portfolio. If we speak of jutsus displayed Tsunade has shown more of those as well. She has displayed an A rank lightning technique, S class fuuinjutsu, and S-Class Medical Ninjutsu. Not to mention that beyond lighting the databook says she has proficiency in three other elements. In ninjutsu, Tsunade has more options than Ay. Not to forget her summoning jutsu as well.

There is only one area in which Ay outclasses Tsunade and it's speed. And this one area of inferiority is without a doubt overcomeable by Tsunade.

A few questions and a point of clarification. Are suigetsu and Juugo speedsters? Are Dodai and the fodder soldiers who reacted to he third raikage? Further, I provided pretty clear scans, the problem is that people interpret with a bias. Therefore the 'tomes' is to show that logically the scan cannot be denied, and that they paint a fluid picture as opposed to a freak occurrence.

Again there is difference between foot speed and reaction speed. Take Wonderwoman for example, she is definitively not as fast as Superman, yet when they've fought she's been able to consistently react to his speed.

Also now that we go back to part 1 for her cannon speed, she was out of shape. Perhaps you don't realize the gravity that carries. But as a former track runner I ran the 3200. Being out shape running it my time was about 19 minutes, but once I was in running shape my fastest time was 12.14. But she would have obviously been in shape in part 2 because in training Sakura she herself had use extraneous effort.

Speed and reaction speed have little correlation. I cannot stress this enough. One is measured by how quickly you're mind processes information and the other is a mechanical task.

Now as to Icelerate's post. Perhaps he can chop off an arm. Somehow, I feel if the person is able to react to you, doing whatever you want in a fight becomes much more difficult. For instance, I'm a kung fu instructor these days, and my students I can easily beat, I can take several on at once and still have a solid I can do pretty much whatever I want. And sometimes when I spar with other martial artist this is true. However, when I find someone near my skill level the fight looks a lot more chaotic because we are effectively countering each other's attempts. And thus while an armlock to a hip throw is easy against a lesser skilled martial artist against someone of my caliber it is quite difficult to pull off. And when my master and I spar, I now get manhandled and the skills which so easily defeats lesser opponents become pretty worthless. Thus this ties into my point in regard to reaction speed and her superior display of taijutsu feats.

I'd also argue that as Ay's attacks continue that Tsunade would be able to avoid more of them. Between reading patterns, her prowess for taijutsu, it would be likely that she'd more than able to successfully dodge more of his attacks.

You see, due to Ay being far superior in speed, he can force Tsunade to block his attacks. Tsunade may be able to react by moving her arms like

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but as you can see, Kabuto ended up hitting her chest instead and she could do nothing about it. I'm pretty sure the speed gap between Ay and Shippuden Tsunade is greater than the speed gap between part one Kabuto and part one Tsunade. If Ay hits Tsunade's arms directly, they'll get chopped off because her arms don't have the durability to withstand his raiton chops considering they chopped off his very own who is canonically more durable than Tsunade.

I think that if Ay had the ability to simply chop off body parts in the heat of battle he would. He especially would have done so against Madara. I think in the same way chakra scalpels can be used to cut for surgery and can even cut through a body, in the heat of battle it becomes almost impossible to do it.

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So while in a non combat setting Raikage can cut off his arm, that likely doesn't translate to the heat of battle where he would have to concentrate lot harder on that specific task and away from things like defense and speed. For instance, before chopping off his hand he turned off his chakra cloak completely, perhaps it takes so much focus that he couldn't do both at once.

 

[Mad Titan Thanos]

In base Ay is not faster than Tsunade. There is nothing that suggests it. You're obviously not familiar with Tsunade's speed or reaction feats. Read the whole gokage vs Madara again and pay attention to Tsunade.
In v1/v2 Ay is obviously faster. But then again Tsunade has the ability to tank every attack Ay has to offer, and according to gokage vs Madara fight Tsunade has more stamina.
Tsunade has enough time to activate her byakugo while Ay activates his v2.

how on earth tsunade have more stamina when Ay has bijuu chakra levels (stated 2 times)not to mention she has 4 /5 in databook 3

 

[Tazzilla88]

My bad guys I meant to post in the active thread

 

[Team7monaa]

how on earth tsunade have more stamina when Ay has bijuu chakra levels (stated 2 times)not to mention she has 4 /5 in databook 3

Tsunade had enough chakra to continuously heal the Hidden leaf village and was able to regenerate from several life ending assaults.
She's Senju/Uzumaki and has a 4/5 for Stamina in base. She was also able to replenish Shikamaru's chakra reserves and heal the alliance with Sakura.

Ay's pool is all hype.

 

[BLAZE]

Ay Stomps

 

[RedRobin]

how on earth tsunade have more stamina when Ay has bijuu chakra levels (stated 2 times)not to mention she has 4 /5 in databook 3

Since when can Ay's chakra be used to heal an entire village?

Also Tsunade was worse off after the Madara fight but was still conscious. Ay wasnt even cut in half.

 

[KingHashirama]

Tsunade can react to Ay's speed when the Sharingan has trouble doing so? Oh boi kill yourself.

Ay slaps her.

Sharingan users = rely on Pre-cog

Normal shinobi = rely on instinct and sensing