A theory to support why Tobi failed to use genjutsu against Minato

[Turson]

Itachis finger Genjutsu would be very dangerous weapon against Minato becuase of two things:
1. Its very sneaky. Who would suspect that they can be caught in Genjutsu only by watching simple hand gesture of enemy?
2. Victims of this Genjutsu dont realise that they are affected by it, until its trully obvious (crows etc.). Technique like that is perfect for creating openings.

 

[GodaimeRaikage]

I don't about your theory, but one thing I do know, using "plot" as a reasoning for why events happen a certain way kills your argument because it can be used for anything.

 

[acdcrockgods]

every theory i've read has been wrong wrong and more wrong. so i'm not going off theory's anymore b/c theory's are just fan's having a reason to say stupid stuff like tobi is obito or sasuke is from the past or itachi is gay w/e dude's

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[Styles]

or he isnt a uchiha

 

[pacifist fighter]

No. If we go by LOGIC then it's unlikely that Tobi won't use genjutsu because it defeats his purpose and we know what Tobi's purpose is.

A speculation but with something to support. I believe there's two kind of speculation. A weak and strong type

Here's an example:

1. Minato has fire element: Absolutely a poor one because there is nothing to support this speculation.

2. Minato has wind: A strong one because of the hints given.

Hints:
A. Jiraiya said that Minato was a shrewd person, and was not a man who would do something without reason

B. Attempted to stab A using a kunai when A is using a lightning shroud.

C. Wind is greater than lightning.

If we add A+B+C, then there's a high possibility that Minato had wind element. This is speculation but a strong one.

Try to compare the two examples and you know what I mean. If someone will say, Minato can easily be trapped by a genjutsu, then he is speculating and of weak type. Why? because there is no evidence even the tiniest one to support that claim.

i just had a question for your debate, if tobi could have just used genjustsu and ended it, how come the original madarra could not do it against the first hokage, p.s. i like your theory i just dont know alot of the technical aspects of the naruto universe.

 

[Fluffyman]

Funny how the threadstarter comes up with theories without any backup, just thinking of a scenerio.

Live with it, Itachi would rape Minato with any genjutsu/Tsukuyomi (Tobi too if he can use any genjutsu).
Minato may be ****ing fast with FTG but he still needs too go out of FTG to strike (we saw it against Tobi and Raikage/Bee). Even if he teleports himself only 1 inch away from Itachi thats still enough for Itachi to get him in a genjutsu.

Itachi´s reflexes are faster than lightning (he managed to activate his Susano´o before Kirin striked > his reflexes are faster than lightning), thats way faster than Minato. Dont get things mixed up, his reflexes are faster than lightning, not his body! And of course MS depends on the user´s reflexes.

If Minato himself would be faster than lightning he would not have used his FTG against Raikage (who is said to be fast as lightning). So Minato doesnt stand a chance.

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

Funny how the threadstarter comes up with theories without any backup, just thinking of a scenerio.

Live with it, Itachi would rape Minato with any genjutsu/Tsukuyomi (Tobi too if he can use any genjutsu).
Minato may be ****ing fast with FTG but he still needs too go out of FTG to strike (we saw it against Tobi and Raikage/Bee). Even if he teleports himself only 1 inch away from Itachi thats still enough for Itachi to get him in a genjutsu.

Itachi´s reflexes are faster than lightning (he managed to activate his Susano´o before Kirin striked > his reflexes are faster than lightning), thats way faster than Minato. Dont get things mixed up, his reflexes are faster than lightning, not his body! And of course MS depends on the user´s reflexes.

If Minato himself would be faster than lightning he would not have used his FTG against Raikage (who is said to be fast as lightning). So Minato doesnt stand a chance.

lets not go that far OK ?

 

[Fluffyman]

Why not?

Kirin is pure lightning, Itachi activated his Susano´o before he got hit by that so he clearly got faster reflexes than the speed of lightning.

But how fast is Minato without his FTG? Nowhere near to lightning, otherwise he wouldnt need his FTG against Raikage or fodder ninjas.

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

Why not?

Kirin is pure lightning, Itachi activated his Susano´o before he got hit by that so he clearly got faster reflexes than the speed of lightning.

But how fast is Minato without his FTG? Nowhere near to lightning, otherwise he wouldnt need his FTG against Raikage or fodder ninjas.

that's because sasuke warn him before hammering the kirin through itachi U_U

 

[Fluffyman]

He warned him?

Itachi had no Susano´o activated till the very last moment, Kirin was already rushing towards him and he still did not had his Susano´o activated. He activated it so close before the impact that we couldnt even see it due too the explosion.

Of course all that was shown way slower so we can see anything, would be lame if it would be over in like 0,0001secs wouldnt it? I dont even know how you could animate something like that for the Anime or what to paint for the Manga.

 

[Arcdelou]

I have seen enough threads about Minato's immunity to genjutsu. I've noticed that most of these threads are made by an Uchiha fan. I don't know what they're up to but I'm certain they try to humiliate Minato's fan. They're claiming that Minato fans does not use logic so I started it by asking the question why Tobi failed to use genjutsu against Minato. The answer from these self proclaiming Uchiha geniuses fanboys are:

1. PLOT
2. Tobi did not intend to use it
3. Was not able to use genjutsu because he was controlling the fox.

Let's discuss number 2. This answer is really stupid and whoever answer this is dumb. This answer defeats Tobi's purpose. Where is the logic behind this answer? Nothing at all...

Let's proceed to the 3rd one. Tobi had all the time to cast genjutsu on Minato when he took Naruto as a hostage. Once again, He was not able to do it and not casting a genjutsu on the strongest man of the village is definitely a bad move and with no logical reason at all. Tobi’s advantage was his genjutsu, yet he failed to use it before the fight, during the fight, and after the fight.

Lastly, the PLOT. This is their safest answer because these self proclaiming Uchiha geniuses fanboys can't think some logical reasons. Still they failed because there is no LOGIC behind the answer PLOT. They forgot that they are reading a story here. Why not view it as a HINT? This is the only chapter that we can see Minato in action. Kishi until now did not reveal Minato’s true skill, lineage, etc..He’s a complete mystery. Every little detail about Minato can be used to uncover his mystery.

Since they can't even think of a possible reason, I'll try to answer that with a theory logical enough to support why Tobi failed to use genjutsu or to simply put why Minato will beat Itachi.

Let's analyze or try to deduce the mechanics behind Minato's FTG. We all know that FTG is a ninjutsu. We also know that when creating a ninjutsu, the two methods of manipulating chakra are referred to as Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation.

Since we know the methods of manipulating chakra to create ninjutsu then FTG should be under Shape Transformation or Nature Transformation. We know that rasengan is the highest form of Shape Transformation. It's unlikely that FTG is a shape transformation technique as FTG is a space/time technique.

We are left with Nature Transformation and we know that there are 6 types of nature elements. They are as follows:

Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, Water, and YIN YANG

Our common sense will tell us that (referring to those who have one..) FTG is not a Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, and Water type. So what we have left is the YIN YANG. Sounds logical? Yes..

Since YIN release and YANG release are needed to form a NINJUTSU, then is it possible that Minato is a master of YIN release and YANG release? No one can create a NINJUTSU if he can't master his/her element well.

While it's true that two techniques of the same nature would cancel each other out if the same amount of chakra was put into them like Kakashi's fight with Kakuzu, where he was able to cancel Kakuzu's Lightning Release by deflecting it with his own technique, is it possible for Minato to counter YIN release techniques with his own YIN techniques?

Unlike Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, Water techs where we can see them if being used, YIN release can't be seen because it is based on the spiritual energy that governs the imagination.

MY POINT: Since I don't believe the story to be PLOT but rather a HINT, this COULD be one of the reason why we did not see Tobi using a sharingan on Minato. This is my OPINION with some explanation behind it.

This is my first post but i have been reading these post here for about a year though.

To the OP. First of all, i like the fact that you think for yourself and are trying to come up with REASON and trying to use logic as backup for what you say/claim and to why what happened in the story happened the way it did, as opposed to just pulling things out of your lower cheeks because it sounds good.

But there are somethings that i want to bring to your attention.

1. Kishi doesn't need "Reason" or "Logic" to make a story. All he needs is Plot.
Now hear is my reason for saying that "Reason" or "Logic" is not needed. Reason is based off of things that we can make sense out of as a whole or a group. Example. We all could reasonably agree that the sky is blue.
Logic is just something to an individual that makes sense. Logical explanations are just someone thought process. There is no right or wrong "logic". But usually people use the same logical process to come to a conclusion or when making choices. Example: Most people would simply pay for a 99. cent item with a dollar. while some will dig for exact change. But both payments are correct.
Now for: "Plot". Pot does not need logic, nor reason... This is do to the fact that "Plot" is created by ones mind and any and everything goes. The rules of life change when plot is used to create something. As a matter of fact, "Plot" is the nemesis of both Reason and Logic. Example: Say i was to "create" some type of story. And in my story, something that exist in our world such as a Sun, Moon, Gravity, Water...etc... doesn't exist in my story. Well when u read my story, being that none of these things exist, one cannot use simple "Reason" or "Logic" to justify the things that happens in my story.

2. Second: Minato using the FTG jutsu, shows no basis as to why he should be considered a yin-yang master. Simply Because, (A) every shinobi in the narutoverse has to use some type of balance of yin and yang to use a jutsu. (B) FTG is something that was created, with out the use of nature, nor chakra manipulation. it only uses chakra. And yes things do exist in the narutoverse that either (A) only uses chakra with no manipulation into a shape. (B) Or also has no affinity tied to it such as fire or water. A Example to back that statement would be to look at guy and rock lee. No use of ninjutsu, only tiejustsu, but yet they both are able to run out of chakra.
FTG should be considered Time-Space tech as it is just that. Its not RAW speed. it is teleportation. I say this to justify why I say that it has no Elemental affinity nor any need for chakra manipulation. Also no other Time-Space Jutsu has need either of the two, but im not saying that they didnt use it.

3. Just to keep it simple for the last part as this post is getting long, i will simply say that, Yes, The reason Tobi didnt use genjutsu on Minato is because of PLOT. Only because we dont know enough about Minato with information from the manga or kishi himself to base my thoughts off of logic or reason.

 

[~Uzumaki~]

I'm a Minato fan. This is highly unlikely. Yin release techs are genjutsu as seen with the 2nd Mizukage who said he's a 'yin release user, in other words a genjutsu user'. So Minato being a Yin master would mean he's a genjutsu user and we know that two genjutsu don't clash and cancel each other since Itachi and Sasuke cast various genjutsu on each other but didnt cancel each other out but rather were just standing there with their minds in various genjutsu, the only other person I can call a yang user is the First Hokage since he turns chakra to life energy to create trees and maybe Naruto since his chakra is purely yang. And yin-yang manipulation tech is Izanagi and Creation of all Things used by so6p. None of these relate to ftg at all so ftg is neither yin, yang, nor yin-yang manipulation. If you assume that every tech not associated with elements or shape manipulation is yin-yang manipulation then tree climbing and water walking with chakra, Sai's ink techs, shadow clone, edo tensei etc are yin yang and so the users should be immune to genjutsu. I dont believe Minato can't be caught in a genjutsu, he can be caught, if Kakashi, Itachi, Sasuke, Bee could be caught then he's no different but he like most strong shinobi would be able to disrupt his chakra, have a toad break it for him, use pain to cancel the illusion, or teleport to very far distance when caught(Deidara could use clay bombs when he was under Itachi's illusion so its possible to use techs in an illusion)which, according to Ao and Shikaku, someone like Itachi can't keep you under illusions(this is just my theory) though its possible he has an immunity for some reason since he wasn't afraid of it when he is a shrewd person according to Jiraiya but I don't think its very likely. As for why Tobi didn't genjutsu him: when has Tobi ever cast a genjutsu on someone during a fight? Its only after a fight that Tobi cast genjutsu on his defeated opponent. Also, it was a dark night so the chances of makin eye contact with one eye made barely visible by the mask are very slim and since he's wearing a mask, it makes it easier for Minato not to focus on his eyes.

 

[GRAFINATOR]

OH MY LANTA!

Is it possible for everyone to use logic holistically to realize that until it is said by Kishi or written in the manga, it is not a fact of the series? Therefore, any argument about one character>another is pointless unless they have fought with a clear outcome. First Tobi v Minato does not count, why? Tobi fled... We do not know why either, so that isn't really a win. Am I the only one who is sick of these threads? It does not matter. It is not significant to the story... Also, plot shield is a viable reason, but it is also bullshit. You can use it to help either side!

Example: Why didn't Minato tag Tobi at their first clash or instead of using Rasengan and surprise him and kill him immediately? Or why didn't Tobi use his jutsu to get inside the second barrier and kill inato and Kushina? He was able to find him previously. Plot shield is a BULL line of reasoning... It allows for any defence or any arguement...

I do not care who is better! When someone creates a thread like this, it is a Mobius Strip! There is no end to it because there simply is not enough evidence to judge a clear outcome. I am wasting just as much time saying this as every single person who makes a thread related to Minato/Tobi fighting. Imagine if these people used their brains for intellectual thinigs...

 

[~Uzumaki~]

Funny how the threadstarter comes up with theories without any backup, just thinking of a scenerio.

Live with it, Itachi would rape Minato with any genjutsu/Tsukuyomi (Tobi too if he can use any genjutsu).
Minato may be ****ing fast with FTG but he still needs too go out of FTG to strike (we saw it against Tobi and Raikage/Bee). Even if he teleports himself only 1 inch away from Itachi thats still enough for Itachi to get him in a genjutsu.

Itachi´s reflexes are faster than lightning (he managed to activate his Susano´o before Kirin striked > his reflexes are faster than lightning), thats way faster than Minato. Dont get things mixed up, his reflexes are faster than lightning, not his body! And of course MS depends on the user´s reflexes.

If Minato himself would be faster than lightning he would not have used his FTG against Raikage (who is said to be fast as lightning). So Minato doesnt stand a chance.

What if Minato teleported one inch behind him, he wont be making eye contact and Minato would kill him before he can turn around and raise his hand to point a finger at him or are you going to say he's faster than the Raikage who couldnt do anything to defend himself from Minato's ftg attack. Also since its 1 inch, Minato would be inside the rib space of Susanoo so it wont block anything even if it is activated at lightning speed.

 

[Itachi2304]

wow. i couldnt possibly have walked in on a more retarded argument. Ok then. if you are claiming minato is immune to genjitsu because tobi didnt use genjitsu on him (LOL btw) since when did we EVER see tobi is ocular genjitsu other than izinagi? i mean when did we ever see tobi put his opponent under a genjitsu WITHOUT TOUCHING HIM. tobi is only capable of putting his opponent under a genjitsu IF HE TOUCHES THEM. as exhibited by when he grabbed konan and put her under a genjitsu and when he tried to grab naruto and tried to put him under a genjitsu. Tobi isnt capable of putting his opponents under a genjitsu at a distance. and what is all this bullshit about characters being immune to genjitsu? Danzo overcame sasuke's tsukuyomi..... however he was decieved by a small basic genjitsu..... is there any character that is immune to genjitsu? i think people used to claim sasori was immune to genjitsu. in all honesty i never saw the sasori vs granny chiyo and sakura fight. people used to claim nagato was immune to genjitsu... HOWEVER nagato was killed by itachis totsuka sword WHICH IS A GENJITSU. so ummm there goes that theory.... All characters are susceptible to genjitsu. EVEN KILLER BEE WAS PUT UNDER A GENJITSU. itachi put him under a genjitsu and dodged his ambush attack lol..... so honestly come now. Minato hasnt shown any signs or any way he could be immune to genjitsu. Pein who is a dead body was put under a genjitsu. hell 3 of his bodies were killed by a genjitsu at the same time. Orochimaru who is using edo tensei was put under a genjitsu by itachi 2 times. "including the totsuka sword eternal genjitsu". I havent seen any characters who are "immune" to genjitsu honestly. So stop with the bullshit. so are u saying that Koto Amatsukami wont work on minato because he is immune to genjitsu? if you want to make a Minato vs itachi thread then u would have to consider Koto-Amatsukami. seeing as how u couldnt possibly make a battle scene between the two without having to say "in their primes" itachi had koto amatsukami ready in his possesion since he was 13 years old. in all honesty the millisecond the battle would start it would be over...... Koto amatsumaki to the face. dont tell me minato is too fast for the strongest genjitsu in existence lol. u dont even have to look at ur opponent to use it (as exhibited by danzo at the kage summit). lol but ok. Minato will somehow go through itachis susanoo which has the yata mirror with his rasengan. Sure when pigs fly. He didnt even kill tobi with it. Tobi just got right back up, said a few words and teleported away.

 

[Arcdelou]

lol u said what i said in a nutshell kinda. just meaner and more direct

 

[Itachi2304]

u are 100000 percent wrong there lol. when sasuke touched itachis susanoo with his sword he flew a mile away lol. and in order for minato to get 1 inch behind itachi he would have to throw a kunai... now come on lol. dont BS me we all know itachi is the King of kunai throwing lol. I want to make something clear to everyone. There is no such thing as "teleportation" even in dragon ball z when goku would use instant transmission it was shown that he was MOVING AT A VERY FAST SPEED WHICH WAS SO FAST U DIDNT SEE HIS MOVEMENTS. u wouldnt see him move to his position because he was so fast. Minato is the same way. There is no such thing as pure teleportation in naruto lol. it is movement that is SO FAST it SEEMS as if he is teleporting. remember when zetsu and tobi were going to see the remains of the itachi vs sasuke fight. zetsu told tobi "hey slow down u know im not as fast as u" thats ironic. Because both zetsu and tobi exhibit teleportation. now if they were both teleporting one person wouldnt be faster than the other lol. Therefore Teleportation is extremely fast movement. Itachi also "teleports" without using any type of space time techniques. minato ALSO teleports without using hirashin no jutsu. Their movement is so fast it seems as if they are teleporting. thanks for your time

What if Minato teleported one inch behind him, he wont be making eye contact and Minato would kill him before he can turn around and raise his hand to point a finger at him or are you going to say he's faster than the Raikage who couldnt do anything to defend himself from Minato's ftg attack. Also since its 1 inch, Minato would be inside the rib space of Susanoo so it wont block anything even if it is activated at lightning speed.

 

[Vexorian]

No. If we go by LOGIC then it's unlikely that Tobi won't use genjutsu because it defeats his purpose and we know what Tobi's purpose is.

A speculation but with something to support. I believe there's two kind of speculation. A weak and strong type

Here's an example:

1. Minato has fire element: Absolutely a poor one because there is nothing to support this speculation.

2. Minato has wind: A strong one because of the hints given.

Hints:
A. Jiraiya said that Minato was a shrewd person, and was not a man who would do something without reason

B. Attempted to stab A using a kunai when A is using a lightning shroud.

C. Wind is greater than lightning.

If we add A+B+C, then there's a high possibility that Minato had wind element. This is speculation but a strong one.

Try to compare the two examples and you know what I mean. If someone will say, Minato can easily be trapped by a genjutsu, then he is speculating and of weak type. Why? because there is no evidence even the tiniest one to support that claim.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY is immune to genjutsu. It's only the ability to break and or dominate it. I guarantee you this, somebody with the caliber of genjutsu that Itachi, Shisui, or Sage J-Man possess may have a hard time catching Minato in a genjutsu, but they absolutely could, and when they did he would be decimated. Go take your fanboyism somewhere else. I don't even like the Uchiha, and I know that much. Troll begone.

 

[modthis]

Tobi genjutsu is not either on itachi or the 3rd mizukages level

May I remind you Tobi used a powerful genjutsu that allowed him to completely control the Fourth Mizukage who I believe was one of the few people to have achieved full control over their tailed beast.

 

[TobisPawn]

Or maybe because he didn't intend to use it? And seriously, many of you guys are extremely forgetful. Does anyone remember when Tobi killed Konan with his genjutsu, AFTER he used the genjutsu to figure out where she hid the Rinnegan?