A theory to support why Tobi failed to use genjutsu against Minato

[UnrealSoul]

This guy has minato's kunai so far up his azz he can't even comprehend the fact that FTG is not a mofoing ying yang release.Tobi did not use genjutsu because of plot no jutsu was active and maybe because he was controlling a fox?This thread was highly unneeded and just caused another minato fanboy vs the world with logic war.Common sense tells you it was because of plot you troll.Basically your trolling in disguise smdh.This thread might as well be closed it's effing useless.

 

[777skills]

What we know is true is like you stated.
1. There are ONLY 2 types of chakra manipulation they are Shape and Nature transformations

2. Shape manipulation is the molding of chakra into shapes such as rasengan which is the PERFECT example of shape transformation. The user gathers there chakra and condenses it into the form of a ball. Nature manipulation is turning chakra into a element usually one the user has an affinity for such as Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique which i think is also a PERFECT example of a Nature transformation the user blows fire on something. It has no form what so ever and is just turning chakra into fire.

3. FTG must fit under ONE OR BOTH of these manipulations (all jutsu must)

4. Ftg looks or acts nothing like rasengan (so it is not solely shape, and it is nothing like dragon fire technique so it is not solely nature maniulation. So it must be a combination which now makes it much harder for anyone to learn.

5. FTG does not easily fall under any of the five regular elements (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Lightning) and it is no mix of any of the elements combined (at least it doesnt appear to be). So it MUST be Yin-Yang (yin-yang element is one element spiritual energy and physical energy a justu can have one side more than the ther such as shikimaru's shadow imitation technique).

6. This is were the speculation really comes in. Is FTG more yin than yang or more yang than yin. Or is it a perfect balance of the two. I believe the actions come in this order. Minato emits chakra to a seal then seal activates and the minato teleports to the location of the seal (i might be wrong) or in another case it could be minato activate ftg he then begins to teleport and then is allowed to choose his location. All of these actions happen at almost the same time since minato has extremely low response times. IF the former is the way it happens then i think it has more of a yang composition and takes more yang then yin to compose so it has more of a physcial aspect but if the latter happens then it has more of a spiritual aspect and is a yin composed move. Now i think it is more of a YANG based move over yin becuase one reason the reason i think that is becuase of Tobi's S/T jutsu. He is able to jutsu stand there and your hand would go right through him but he is still there which in a sense is like his spirit is still there and his body is somewhere else and at his whim he can send it and the make it come back (but he has a time limit i believe) and i also think thats why Kamui doesn't work on him not because its a S/T jutsu but because the way his jutsu works there is nothing there for it to swallow so it has no effect against him. Also assuming im right Kakashi's Kamui will be useless against people that figure out its weakness and that is Size. If The oppnent is able to use a jutsu that has the same amount of yang chakra used as kakashi in his kamui then it will fail. Like when minato teleported him and the fox he had to turn his chakra into yang chakra to teleport the physical body of the fox thats why he stated he would use enormous amounts of chakra to tleport the ox becuase the foxs yang chakra signature was huge.


This is like stated a lot of speculation and im fine with that but that is what makes naruto a great manga there can be speculation and everything isnt in black and white there are grey and coloured areas where people can make there own conclusions and use logic to back them up.

I think i got confused up there lol. Correct me if im wrong.

Since Yin-Yang are ONE type of chakra but with different sides then if the user is able to use there yin-yang chakra effectively they should be able tobreak free of any genjutsu. The reason why it is stated that only sharingan users can break a Tsukuyomi is becuase of there mastery of yin chakra manipulation (my assumption feel free to debate) if another is able to master yin chakra manipulation then they too will more than likely be able to break free of Tsukuyomi. So if Minato is able to master his Yin-Yang chakra type then he (since they are they same chakra type) theoretically should be able to counter balance itachi's yin (Tsukuyomi) with his Yang chakra.
Just so al of you know any jutsu that is not ELEMENTAL is Yin-Yang jutsu so shadow clone is, shadow imitation is, genjutsu is, medical jutsu is, summoning jutsu is.

Shadow clone is yin-yang but water clone isn't, mud clone isn't.

Someone stated that we cannot use elimination to solve a problem like this. Since we are not making an absurd statement i think we can. Is minato molding chakra into any shape shuch as a ball or sword or kuni or spear or triangle or tree or box? No so it is not Shape manipulation. During the process is Minato turning chakra into any elemental chakra? Well, its not fire, or water, or earth, or wind, or lightning so it cannot be an elemental jutsu (we can deduce this becuase it has no properties of any of them) so it must be Yin-Yang why becuase yin yang chakra is used in all jutsu that are non elemental such as shadow clone or shadow imitation, genjutsu. Since FTG is a yin-yang jutsu and since minato has proven he has incredible effeciency with this skill can we assume that he would be able to counterbalance a genjutsu since it is also yin-yang chakra? Ill assume yes why becuase counter balanceing has happend enough times for it to not be a coincidence sasuke used a fire ball itach used a fire ball sasukes fire ball got stronger and swallowed itachis fire ball itachi then used the strongest fire technique and it bea the giant fireball coming at him...so i dont see why this will not work with yin-yang chakra moves....

 

[UnrealSoul]

What we know is true is like you stated.
1. There are ONLY 2 types of chakra manipulation they are Shape and Nature transformations

2. Shape manipulation is the molding of chakra into shapes such as rasengan which is the PERFECT example of shape transformation. The user gathers there chakra and condenses it into the form of a ball. Nature manipulation is turning chakra into a element usually one the user has an affinity for such as Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique which i think is also a PERFECT example of a Nature transformation the user blows fire on something. It has no form what so ever and is just turning chakra into fire.

3. FTG must fit under ONE OR BOTH of these manipulations (all jutsu must)

4. Ftg looks or acts nothing like rasengan (so it is not solely shape, and it is nothing like dragon fire technique so it is not solely nature maniulation. So it must be a combination which now makes it much harder for anyone to learn.

5. FTG does not easily fall under any of the five regular elements (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Lightning) and it is no mix of any of the elements combined (at least it doesnt appear to be). So it MUST be Yin-Yang (yin-yang element is one element spiritual energy and physical energy a justu can have one side more than the ther such as shikimaru's shadow imitation technique).

6. This is were the speculation really comes in. Is FTG more yin than yang or more yang than yin. Or is it a perfect balance of the two. I believe the actions come in this order. Minato emits chakra to a seal then seal activates and the minato teleports to the location of the seal (i might be wrong) or in another case it could be minato activate ftg he then begins to teleport and then is allowed to choose his location. All of these actions happen at almost the same time since minato has extremely low response times. IF the former is the way it happens then i think it has more of a yang composition and takes more yang then yin to compose so it has more of a physcial aspect but if the latter happens then it has more of a spiritual aspect and is a yin composed move. Now i think it is more of a YANG based move over yin becuase one reason the reason i think that is becuase of Tobi's S/T jutsu. He is able to jutsu stand there and your hand would go right through him but he is still there which in a sense is like his spirit is still there and his body is somewhere else and at his whim he can send it and the make it come back (but he has a time limit i believe) and i also think thats why Kamui doesn't work on him not because its a S/T jutsu but because the way his jutsu works there is nothing there for it to swallow so it has no effect against him. Also assuming im right Kakashi's Kamui will be useless against people that figure out its weakness and that is Size. If The oppnent is able to use a jutsu that has the same amount of yang chakra used as kakashi in his kamui then it will fail. Like when minato teleported him and the fox he had to turn his chakra into yang chakra to teleport the physical body of the fox thats why he stated he would use enormous amounts of chakra to tleport the ox becuase the foxs yang chakra signature was huge.


This is like stated a lot of speculation and im fine with that but that is what makes naruto a great manga there can be speculation and everything isnt in black and white there are grey and coloured areas where people can make there own conclusions and use logic to back them up.

I think i got confused up there lol. Correct me if im wrong.

I believe it's more physical then spiritual.Space and time more then likely is more physical.FTG is teleportation in which means moving you physically,So your basically moving from point A to B.If it was more chakra based then i doubt it will be effective.

 

[ajpn920]

First of all, FTG/Space time ninjutsu is obviously not Yin-Yang release or everyone who can do summonings + tenten would be a Yin-Yan user. It is more likely to fall under Shape Transformation since it contains movement, controll and the amount of chakra used is determined by the size.
Second, I have shown you examples of Yin-Yan users, including Nagato who had mastery over all element types, successfully being put and trapped in a genjutsu. Danzo aswell.
Thirdly, trial and error isn't the best way to get a conclusion. Yin release governs the imagination (such as milti size technique) and Yang release governs vitality (such as medical ninjuts). FTG falls under neither of these.
Fourthly, the only people who have been able to use Yin-Yang release were people who had Uchiha + Senju/Uzamaki DNA inside them as far as I am aware.

Yin release governs the imagination (such as milti size technique) and Yang release governs vitality (such as medical ninjuts)

YIN and YANG are both needed to created ninjutsu thus the example of multi size tech being YIN is not correct.

Yin and Yang are the sourceof non-elemental techniques such as the Shadow Imitation Technique, Multi-Size Technique, medical ninjutsu, genjutsu but it doesn't mean that they are YIN YANG.

Rasengan is the highest level of shape transformation so it's very unlikely that FTG will fall in that category since it deals with time and space. If FTG is indeed a shape transformation, then it simply means that many can master it because it only uses pure chakra.

Fourthly, the only people who have been able to use Yin-Yang release were people who had Uchiha + Senju/Uzamaki DNA inside them

Pain can use YIN YANG and he is only an uzumaki. No uchiha DNA. This is because of Rinnegan.

 

[ajpn920]

This guy has minato's kunai so far up his azz he can't even comprehend the fact that FTG is not a mofoing ying yang release.Tobi did not use genjutsu because of plot no jutsu was active and maybe because he was controlling a fox?This thread was highly unneeded and just caused another minato fanboy vs the world with logic war.Common sense tells you it was because of plot you troll.Basically your trolling in disguise smdh.This thread might as well be closed it's effing useless.

I'm not trolling. If you can't comprehend then better leave than calling it useless.

What we know is true is like you stated.
1. There are ONLY 2 types of chakra manipulation they are Shape and Nature transformations

2. Shape manipulation is the molding of chakra into shapes such as rasengan which is the PERFECT example of shape transformation. The user gathers there chakra and condenses it into the form of a ball. Nature manipulation is turning chakra into a element usually one the user has an affinity for such as Fire Release: Dragon Fire Technique which i think is also a PERFECT example of a Nature transformation the user blows fire on something. It has no form what so ever and is just turning chakra into fire.

3. FTG must fit under ONE OR BOTH of these manipulations (all jutsu must)

4. Ftg looks or acts nothing like rasengan (so it is not solely shape, and it is nothing like dragon fire technique so it is not solely nature maniulation. So it must be a combination which now makes it much harder for anyone to learn.

5. FTG does not easily fall under any of the five regular elements (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, Lightning) and it is no mix of any of the elements combined (at least it doesnt appear to be). So it MUST be Yin-Yang (yin-yang element is one element spiritual energy and physical energy a justu can have one side more than the ther such as shikimaru's shadow imitation technique).

6. This is were the speculation really comes in. Is FTG more yin than yang or more yang than yin. Or is it a perfect balance of the two. I believe the actions come in this order. Minato emits chakra to a seal then seal activates and the minato teleports to the location of the seal (i might be wrong) or in another case it could be minato activate ftg he then begins to teleport and then is allowed to choose his location. All of these actions happen at almost the same time since minato has extremely low response times. IF the former is the way it happens then i think it has more of a yang composition and takes more yang then yin to compose so it has more of a physcial aspect but if the latter happens then it has more of a spiritual aspect and is a yin composed move. Now i think it is more of a YANG based move over yin becuase one reason the reason i think that is becuase of Tobi's S/T jutsu. He is able to jutsu stand there and your hand would go right through him but he is still there which in a sense is like his spirit is still there and his body is somewhere else and at his whim he can send it and the make it come back (but he has a time limit i believe) and i also think thats why Kamui doesn't work on him not because its a S/T jutsu but because the way his jutsu works there is nothing there for it to swallow so it has no effect against him. Also assuming im right Kakashi's Kamui will be useless against people that figure out its weakness and that is Size. If The oppnent is able to use a jutsu that has the same amount of yang chakra used as kakashi in his kamui then it will fail. Like when minato teleported him and the fox he had to turn his chakra into yang chakra to teleport the physical body of the fox thats why he stated he would use enormous amounts of chakra to tleport the ox becuase the foxs yang chakra signature was huge.


This is like stated a lot of speculation and im fine with that but that is what makes naruto a great manga there can be speculation and everything isnt in black and white there are grey and coloured areas where people can make there own conclusions and use logic to back them up.

I think i got confused up there lol. Correct me if im wrong.

YIN and YANG are needed to create NINJUTSU. FTG is a combination between YIN and YANG. Dojutsus gives access to YIN and YANG but it doesn't mean that they do have that affinity. The seal could only be a mark for his destination. It wasn't mentioned that Minato needed enough chakra because the fox had large YANG chakra. Minato was referring to the size of the fox.

 

[sarutobi01843]

Well, since OP has been bashing out on everyone's intelligence, let me bash out on his argument. And OP, please feel honored that I joined the forums just for you and your argument's sake.

First off was the analyzation of FTG's mechanics. I agree that any space-time could logically fall under yin and yang. I'm really leaning toward that it's a combination of yin and yang plus shape transformation due to the fact that all s/t involves manipulation of both SPACE and time. One not so solid evidence from my assumption is the fact that Tobi's arm was kind of falling off (EWW and chapter 503 p 3 and latest episode btw) and disintegrating after he got hit by a rasengan from Yondaime Hokage. Knowing that Tobi uses his s/t migration so often, we could safely say that this disintegration is a consequence of his abuse of using s/t migration. After being hit, more than likely, he lost control of his chakra and more or less, he is also losing the form/shape of his body. Which is why I'm thinking shape matters in the aspect where manipulation of point of space is needed.

Where the logic goes wrong? Mastery of Yin and Yang release. Just because one has mastered a Yin and Yang release technique (even mainly yin) doesn't mean that they have mastered yin and yang release. My counter examples are the Nara clan's shadow jutsus (they use yin yang to control shadows), Naruto's kagebunshin (utilizes yin/yang release to create clones), Yamanaka clan's mind jutsus (pretty sure they use their imagination to project their minds), and Sai's Ink Jutsus(yin/yang to keep the form and give life to his drawings). All of these guys are still subject to genjutsu.

Just to remind everyone, we should all know yin creates shape and form from nothingness (well not from nothingness in the case of other yin/yang users) and yang gives life (chapter 510 pg 11). Even it is actually said by the 2nd Mizukage (ch 548 pg 18) that genjutsu is under yin release...

Does counterbalancing work with genjutsu? (specifically tsukuyomi if ever tobi ends up to use it. Hell, we haven't even seen him have a mangekyou in his current state) Truth is, you don't need to counter balance genjutsu. All you need is to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra either from yourself (if you're strong enough), or somebody else who can "release" you using their own chakra that even bijuus can stop genjutsu (just that Kurama didn't care about Naruto back then). Other ways are intense pain, being able to see/sense through the genjutsu through sharingan or I guess other techniques, or chilli pepper bombs from the anime.

Here's what I think:
Both Minato and Tobi are master tacticians. Hell if you read the manga/watch the episode, you read/hear Minato analyzing every aspect of the battlefield, even the tone of Tobi. Tobi on the other hand mustered up plans as the leader of the Akatsuki and even being able to manipulate Nagato with his own ideology.

In knowing that Minato is also a tactician, I'm pretty sure Tobi knows trying to catch Minato would be awfully hard and end up as an openning to the Yellow Flash. Besides, if he uses tsukuyomi, he'll end up having a down time trying to focus tsukuyomi (or even more if he doesn't have an eternal mangekyou) which would be a lethal mistake if the opponent is really fast. We don't know if Tobi has a tsukuyomi-level genjutsu, but logically, if he did, I'm pretty sure he would have used it when he was holding Naruto as a hostage. Why? Yondaime Hokage would be the biggest threat to his plan of releasing the kyuubi. It would be best to take care of the biggest threat at the time that you have a hostage than just teleport Kushina away.

I'd say both were playing mind games/chess with their battle. Which is why Kishi decided to have Minato say that whoever hits the quickest and obviously, Tobi knew that as well (mini seconds before he managed to hold Minato which he unluckily got hit by the rasengan).

It basically boils down to Tobi not intending to use it (2) through the logical assumption that both are very rational tacticians.

PS. We don't need to insult people's intelligence just because they can't make an effective argument. You just end up looking like a kid who's looking for acknowledgement that your argument just makes sense. Like really? This kind of attention-whoring is for kids who never knew how to argue and just found their first logical argument that other people agree on.

The way you keep saying thank you to almost every person who agrees and fiercely defensive insults to those who agree is a proof of that. There is so much lack of respect that it's clearly spelling out that your objective for those messages isn't for argument but rather attention and acknowledgement. Sir, all you need to say is for people to reread again your argument and try to understand it. Another thing, some people haven't even learned how to analyze. Analytical skill is a LEARNED skill not some sort of genius skill. Even if a lot of people doesn't know how to analyze, at least respect them.

PPS. I'm a Naruto and Sasuke fan btw mainly because I can relate to both of them. Just to say, Naruto deserved his acknowledgement and same for the 4th Hokage. You had an argument that justified that kind of acknowledgement but your attitude towards those who disagree is totally ridiculous.

[editted to make sure that the OP knows that I'm posting this just for him]

++rep dude awesome

 

[TheBattousai]

...
4. Ftg looks or acts nothing like rasengan (so it is not solely shape, and it is nothing like dragon fire technique so it is not solely nature maniulation. So it must be a combination which now makes it much harder for anyone to learn.
...

so all shape manipulation must look or act like the rasengan, and all nature manipulation must look like dragon fire technique? We haven't seen much shape manipulation, but we've seen a multitude of nature manipulation, and not very many of them look or act like dragon fire technique. I still would propose that one could mold their chakra around themselves and adjust it's shape in such a way as to "slip" through space time.

 

[iSpeak]

YIN and YANG are both needed to created ninjutsu thus the example of multi size tech being YIN is not correct.

Multi Size techniqe is a Yin-Yang RELEASE technique. Yin and yang are used to mould ninjutsu but Ying Yang Release is what I explained. Everyone who uses ninjutsu use Yin and Yang, since it is used to mold ninjutsu.

Yin and Yang are the sourceof non-elemental techniques such as the Shadow Imitation Technique, Multi-Size Technique, medical ninjutsu, genjutsu but it doesn't mean that they are YIN YANG.

Rasengan is the highest level of shape transformation so it's very unlikely that FTG will fall in that category since it deals with time and space. If FTG is indeed a shape transformation, then it simply means that many can master it because it only uses pure chakra.

Yin-Yang release ins't the source of all non-elemental techniques, unless you are telling me TBB and Rasengan are Yin-Yang Release techs aswell?
I have already explained why it cannot be nature transformation.

Pain can use YIN YANG and he is only an uzumaki. No uchiha DNA. This is because of Rinnegan.

Pain was given his Rinnegan by a Uchiha (Madara), similar to how Danzo had Sharingans implanted in him which allowed him to use Yin-Yang Release.

 

[777skills]

I'm not trolling. If you can't comprehend then better leave than calling it useless.



YIN and YANG are needed to create NINJUTSU. FTG is a combination between YIN and YANG. Dojutsus gives access to YIN and YANG but it doesn't mean that they do have that affinity. The seal could only be a mark for his destination. It wasn't mentioned that Minato needed enough chakra because the fox had large YANG chakra. Minato was referring to the size of the fox.

I assume that when uchiha use Tsukuyomi they get tired is this becuase htey are running low on spiritual energy or becuase they are using alot of chakra? Also since they do not use chakra yin-yang still need some form of measurement how would minato be able to counter balance Tsukuyomi if it doesnt usee chakra. Since shadow clone is yin yang and naruto can only use it so much till he must use the chakra of the fox (i belive) doesnt that mean they are turning there chakra into yin yang energy to create the jutsu and if that is true wouldnt that mean the power and capacity of the users yin yang abilities are tied directly to there chakra control.

 

[Frikid]

i like ur sig
i like minato too

So i don't care wht anyone says, Minato owns

 

[ajpn920]

Where the logic goes wrong? Mastery of Yin and Yang release. Just because one has mastered a Yin and Yang release technique (even mainly yin) doesn't mean that they have mastered yin and yang release. My counter examples are the Nara clan's shadow jutsus (they use yin yang to control shadows), Naruto's kagebunshin (utilizes yin/yang release to create clones), Yamanaka clan's mind jutsus (pretty sure they use their imagination to project their minds), and Sai's Ink Jutsus(yin/yang to keep the form and give life to his drawings). All of these guys are still subject to genjutsu.

Yin and Yang is the source of non-elemental techniques such as the Shadow Imitation Technique, Multi-Size Technique, medical ninjutsu, genjutsu. Being the source does not mean they have YIN YANG.

My counter examples are the Nara clan's shadow jutsus (they use yin yang to control shadows), Naruto's kagebunshin (utilizes yin/yang release to create clones), Yamanaka clan's mind jutsus (pretty sure they use their imagination to project their minds), and Sai's Ink Jutsus(yin/yang to keep the form and give life to his drawings)

If what you said is true then YIN YANG is just an ordinary affinity because the Nara clan, Yamanaka clan, Naruto and Sai can use it. Also, there are many medics so based on your logic, they have YIN YANG.

By the way YIN YANG was considered as the 6th nature element. Correct me if I'm wrong but does shadow clones uses nature affinity? We know that Naruto until now has only wind element and he was able to develop that during shippuden. If I'm not mistaken, naruto was able to use kagebunshin before shippuden. That was the time he stole the scroll of seals.

It's very clear that what you have used as a counter failed.

 

[ajpn920]

I assume that when uchiha use Tsukuyomi they get tired is this becuase htey are running low on spiritual energy or becuase they are using alot of chakra? Also since they do not use chakra yin-yang still need some form of measurement how would minato be able to counter balance Tsukuyomi if it doesnt usee chakra. Since shadow clone is yin yang and naruto can only use it so much till he must use the chakra of the fox (i belive) doesnt that mean they are turning there chakra into yin yang energy to create the jutsu and if that is true wouldnt that mean the power and capacity of the users yin yang abilities are tied directly to there chakra control.

Shadow clone is not YIN YANG. YIN YANG is the 6th nature element. Shadow clones is pure chakra. We know that Naruto was able to use it during part 1. That time, he can't use his nature affinity. He developed wind during shippuden. Correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe I have missed the part where he uses wind at part 1.

 

[ajpn920]

Multi Size techniqe is a Yin-Yang RELEASE technique. Yin and yang are used to mould ninjutsu but Ying Yang Release is what I explained. Everyone who uses ninjutsu use Yin and Yang, since it is used to mold ninjutsu.



Yin-Yang release ins't the source of all non-elemental techniques, unless you are telling me TBB and Rasengan are Yin-Yang Release techs aswell?
I have already explained why it cannot be nature transformation.



Pain was given his Rinnegan by a Uchiha (Madara), similar to how Danzo had Sharingans implanted in him which allowed him to use Yin-Yang Release.

Multi Size techniqe is a Yin-Yang RELEASE technique. Yin and yang are used to mould ninjutsu but Ying Yang Release is what I explained. Everyone who uses ninjutsu use Yin and Yang, since it is used to mold ninjutsu.

Using your statement, every shinobi capable of using ninjutsu have YIN YANG thus Naruto in part one who can use ninjutsu has YIN YANG?

YIN YANG is the 6th NATURE element. Naruto does not have nature affinity in part 1.

It goes like this. YIN YANG=Nature Element=ninjutsu=shinobi=naruto?

To make it short: YIN YANG=Nature Element=naruto

Question: Does naruto uses nature affinity in part one? If not, then your argument is invalid.

Yin-Yang release ins't the source of all non-elemental techniques, unless you are telling me TBB and Rasengan are Yin-Yang Release techs aswell?

It's not the source of all but to some yes like shikamaru's techs, or yamanaka's techs. Others may fall in shape transformation.


Pain was given his Rinnegan by a Uchiha (Madara), similar to how Danzo had Sharingans implanted in him which allowed him to use Yin-Yang Release.

No argument needed here. Your last post states that only uchiha+senju/uzumaki DNA can use YIN YANG. I proved that Pain is not an uchiha but can use YIN YANG because of rinnegan.




time to go to bed..nice discussing with you mate..

 

[Gidian]

well space/time jutsus have nothing to do with elemental manipulation of the chakra, an elemental technique either changes the enviroment by manipulating the surrounding elements of nature or creating elements that'll drastically destroy an area...the element release known with the highest destruction by far is the dust element... space/time jutsu manipulate SPACE and TIME lol it's that simple, also we don't know yet what type of genjutsu tobi uses, during his battle with konan tobi was forced to use izanagi but strangely didn't use genjutsu on her although it would be the the fastest way to stop her from using her explosives, yet he only happened to use it when got a grip on her with his hand on her neck, i'm not saying anything, just presenting some things i find interesting

 

[NarutoKage2]

I have seen enough threads about Minato's immunity to genjutsu. I've noticed that most of these threads are made by an Uchiha fan. I don't know what they're up to but I'm certain they try to humiliate Minato's fan. They're claiming that Minato fans does not use logic so I started it by asking the question why Tobi failed to use genjutsu against Minato. The answer from these self proclaiming Uchiha geniuses fanboys are:

1. PLOT
2. Tobi did not intend to use it
3. Was not able to use genjutsu because he was controlling the fox.

Let's discuss number 2. This answer is really stupid and whoever answer this is dumb. This answer defeats Tobi's purpose. Where is the logic behind this answer? Nothing at all...

Let's proceed to the 3rd one. Tobi had all the time to cast genjutsu on Minato when he took Naruto as a hostage. Once again, He was not able to do it and not casting a genjutsu on the strongest man of the village is definitely a bad move and with no logical reason at all. Tobi’s advantage was his genjutsu, yet he failed to use it before the fight, during the fight, and after the fight.

Lastly, the PLOT. This is their safest answer because these self proclaiming Uchiha geniuses fanboys can't think some logical reasons. Still they failed because there is no LOGIC behind the answer PLOT. They forgot that they are reading a story here. Why not view it as a HINT? This is the only chapter that we can see Minato in action. Kishi until now did not reveal Minato’s true skill, lineage, etc..He’s a complete mystery. Every little detail about Minato can be used to uncover his mystery.

Since they can't even think of a possible reason, I'll try to answer that with a theory logical enough to support why Tobi failed to use genjutsu or to simply put why Minato will beat Itachi.

Let's analyze or try to deduce the mechanics behind Minato's FTG. We all know that FTG is a ninjutsu. We also know that when creating a ninjutsu, the two methods of manipulating chakra are referred to as Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation.

Since we know the methods of manipulating chakra to create ninjutsu then FTG should be under Shape Transformation or Nature Transformation. We know that rasengan is the highest form of Shape Transformation. It's unlikely that FTG is a shape transformation technique as FTG is a space/time technique.

We are left with Nature Transformation and we know that there are 6 types of nature elements. They are as follows:

Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, Water, and YIN YANG

Our common sense will tell us that (referring to those who have one..) FTG is not a Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, and Water type. So what we have left is the YIN YANG. Sounds logical? Yes..

Since YIN release and YANG release are needed to form a NINJUTSU, then is it possible that Minato is a master of YIN release and YANG release? No one can create a NINJUTSU if he can't master his/her element well.

While it's true that two techniques of the same nature would cancel each other out if the same amount of chakra was put into them like Kakashi's fight with Kakuzu, where he was able to cancel Kakuzu's Lightning Release by deflecting it with his own technique, is it possible for Minato to counter YIN release techniques with his own YIN techniques?

Unlike Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, Water techs where we can see them if being used, YIN release can't be seen because it is based on the spiritual energy that governs the imagination.

MY POINT: Since I don't believe the story to be PLOT but rather a HINT, this COULD be one of the reason why we did not see Tobi using a sharingan on Minato. This is my OPINION with some explanation behind it.

Good theory, plus reps. But you're wasting your time, Uchiha itachi fanboys are too damn stubborn to see this logic and will doggedly stick to their bullshit no matter what you throw at them.

Its pretty fckn obvious, all genjutsu is Yin release, Minato mastered both Yin and Yang so genjutsu is no problem for him.

 

[777skills]

(((((((((((((((((-Aside from the five basic types of nature transformation, there is also a sixth type: the Yin (陰, In), the basis of imagination and spiritual energy, used to perform Yin Release (陰遁, Inton); and the Yang (陽, Yō), the basis of vitality and physical energy, used to perform Yang Release (陽遁, Yōton). Together, they are used to perform Yin–Yang Release (陰陽遁, Onmyōton).[6] Yamato implied that the Yin and Yang are the source of non-elemental techniques such as the Shadow Imitation Technique, Multi-Size Technique, medical ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc.[7]

The transformation of the Yin and Yang seemingly has to do with altering the amounts of and balance between spiritual and physical energy in chakra. As explained by Shikamaru Nara, Tayuya's spirit worms were forms of spiritual energy that have small amounts of physical energy, thus they require stability and feed upon the physical energy they lack. Shikamaru also mentioned that Tayuya was the same type of ninja as he is, being able to use such kinds of "special chakra" in battle, supporting the belief that the Nara clan's shadow-based techniques are also Yin and Yang-based.[8] )))))))))))))))))

That is exactly what naruto wiki states for yin yang. The assumption is that If a jutsu does no use an elemental energy if uses a spiritual or physical energy which would be classiffied as yin yang (physical as in yang not as in tiajutsu).

So any jutsu that has NO elemental connection is yin or yang. Shadow clones are yang since the chakra is used to create clones which are physical while shdow imitation are yin with little yang since they are unable to be touched but are able to capture physical beings (i think)

 

[Minato namikaze2]

u destroyed uchiha fans xd

 

[777skills]

Also when it states nature transformation there is adiffence from between nature and natural because nature (at least in english) can be the way something acts.

I can stated: Jonny has a bashful nature. Joy has a joyous nature. Greg has a humorous nature. Without any of those statements being incorrect.

So it can depend on whether the translation of this word from Japanese is Natural/elemental or if its correct as in nature which can mean actions or behavior.

(naruto is Japanese right.....)

 

[Turson]

Thinking that Minato was immune to Genjutsus is ridiculous...

 

[RaikageZero]

Yin and Yang is the source of non-elemental techniques such as the Shadow Imitation Technique, Multi-Size Technique, medical ninjutsu, genjutsu. Being the source does not mean they have YIN YANG.



If what you said is true then YIN YANG is just an ordinary affinity because the Nara clan, Yamanaka clan, Naruto and Sai can use it. Also, there are many medics so based on your logic, they have YIN YANG.

Just read these two statements that you said. You said it yourself that Yin and Yang is the source of non elementalB] jutsus. Well I'm sorry that I made you lose track of my part of the argument there but my point at that time is that these people have mastered yin-yang governed jutsus. Even Yamato confirms it (sorry feeling lazy to pull out the source) that Shikamaru's shadow techniques, medical ninjutsus and such are governed by yin-yang release. Then even if these people have sufficiently mastered certain yin-yang jutsus, it doesn't necessarily mean they have mastered yin-yang release nor be able to use counter-balance to defeat

By the way YIN YANG was considered as the 6th nature element. Correct me if I'm wrong but does shadow clones uses nature affinity? We know that Naruto until now has only wind element and he was able to develop that during shippuden. If I'm not mistaken, naruto was able to use kagebunshin before shippuden. That was the time he stole the scroll of seals.[\QUOTE]

Shadow clones are also governed by yin-yang. Like what you said, it's the source of non-elemental techniques. Although not confirmed, we can safely tell how it works is governed by the imagination of being able to create your own clones (yin) and giving it the vitality to give its life (yang). The reason why kagebunshin is considered a kinjutsu is because kagebunshin abuses the chakra levels and more importantly, the vitality of the user (yang) through always creating clones that consumes half of their chakra level (too lazy to pull out the source again but I do remember this somewhere in the first series, just correct me if I'm wrong on this one). We all know that the Uzumaki clan had such an amazing vitality that Naruto himself beats this (funny that this is the only explanation presented so far by Kishi) and how Kushina is still able to live for a few minutes despite having the kyuubi being pulled out from her.

It's very clear that what you have used as a counter failed.[\QUOTE]

I hope you can see the part of the argument now that even if people know/mastered a yin-yang jutsu, it doesn't mean they have mastered the whole yin-yang release. Let alone a kind of jutsu that would let them counter-balance another jutsu of another yin-yang release. Also, I'd like to point out now, we haven't seen counterbalance working in the case of yin-yang jutsus. This is mainly because yin-yang works in tandem of each other that counterbalancing them is too complicated. We've only seen cases of genjutsu vs genjutsu but none of them seem to be of counter-balance. Best bet is until Kishi offers more information about yin-yang and if this/these affinity can be counterbalanced. Otherwise, we're just left in the grayzone :shrug: The little information about yin-yang leaves us to ponder and I guess Kishi wants to leave it that way, but with the little information about yin-yang, I don't want to assume beyond knowing that yin governs imagination into form and yang for giving life.

Also, I don't get why people ALWAYS assume that Yin governs only completely from nothing and Yang is giving that conceived entity life. Tobi said in the manga that rikudou had an excellent mastery of yin-yang release that they could create something just out of their imagination and nowhere did he mention that all yin-yang release has to be that way[\B]. Guys, please understand the notion of "mastery vs knowing a jutsu/release" better. It makes understanding the subject of yin-yang a lot easier despite the little information that Kishi has given us about it.