A theory to support why Tobi failed to use genjutsu against Minato

[lordranzy]

Ouch..what argument are you talking about Mr. Bean?:flaw:

Hey Mr. GOOGLE,,i Mean GOOGOO,,wer talking about yin yang users whos superb,,bite me pls..

 

[BloodSeed]

i guess i dont bark,,i just bite,,i dont want to go down ur level,,^^

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[ajpn920]

i guess i dont bark,,i just bite,,i dont want to go down ur level,,^^

Yeahhh..you're right...You should be proud that you have the sense of humor. Anyway, let's get back to the topic. So, you're talking about hurricane manipulation. can you give some reference about this?

 

[lordranzy]

Yeahhh..you're right...You should be proud that you have the sense of humor. Anyway, let's get back to the topic. So, you're talking about hurricane manipulation. can you give some reference about this?

nahh,,if i would then i kills the manga,,amen!!! lets wait the fan of madara ok??i dont wanna be a party popper,,^^

 

[Raypril]

Your arguments are invalid because they are solely based on speculations and they are lacking factual information for back up. Heck, almost everything people talk about in this forum is like this. Let's just enjoy the manga and tone down on preposterous claims.

 

[Ninjinuity]

Thread starter's got some interesting explanations. I can understand it clearly, and I also don't like to think of plot-shields as a reason unless there are no reasons such as the ones I've read here.

kishimoto himself said in the latest interview that deidara can spam C0 in edo formU_U

First off, I admit that I do not have a full understanding about the Edo Tensei tech, nor have I actually gone off and researched it completely.

So I was wondering, based on this factual reference, if the spammable C0 would require a lot of chakra, where would it come from? From the caster or from the revived recipient? If the chakra comes from the caster, then I can see how C0 can be spammed, so long as the caster can supply it. Which also would make me understand why Edo Deidara didnt C0-spam the Shinobi Alliance to death. Orochimaru and Kabuto 'didn't really look like they had chakra comparable to a tailed beast, unless I missed something.

Something else I thought of, although it is pure imagination, which I cannot prove. Edo Tensei is a tech that forcibly takes a soul from the Pure world and binds it to a (living?) body in the real world (correct me if that's wrong). Perhaps the soul still has a connection to the Pure world and that the Pure world had a supply of chakra similar to the natural chakra Naruto uses in Sage mode.

That's my two cents, wanted to see if anyone had similar thoughts.

 

[Dribbles]

Oh c'mon, there is no confusion. they both are related. As i told you, ftg is made of teleportation using contract seals. No elemental chakra is needed here, only normal chakra.

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Its related with summoning jutsu.....thats why i tried to xplain it with its relation.

Doesnt that big black ritual thing pop up when you summon/reverse summon something tho ? And to be reversed summoned the person has to do it, how does a kunai reverse summon ??

 

[DresdenChurch]

Of course Minato would win in a fight against Itachi, after Tobi(Or Madara, if you still believe that lol.) reveals the truth about Itachi's so called "Legend" of how he really "slaughtered" the whole of the Uchiha clan it is clear that he wasn't as powerful as originally claimed by Asuma to Kuranei Sensei. Not the mention Minato is TOTALLY BAD@$$ and could never loose to an Uchiha.

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

First off, I admit that I do not have a full understanding about the Edo Tensei tech, nor have I actually gone off and researched it completely.

So I was wondering, based on this factual reference, if the spammable C0 would require a lot of chakra, where would it come from? From the caster or from the revived recipient? If the chakra comes from the caster, then I can see how C0 can be spammed, so long as the caster can supply it. Which also would make me understand why Edo Deidara didnt C0-spam the Shinobi Alliance to death. Orochimaru and Kabuto 'didn't really look like they had chakra comparable to a tailed beast, unless I missed something.

Something else I thought of, although it is pure imagination, which I cannot prove. Edo Tensei is a tech that forcibly takes a soul from the Pure world and binds it to a (living?) body in the real world (correct me if that's wrong). Perhaps the soul still has a connection to the Pure world and that the Pure world had a supply of chakra similar to the natural chakra Naruto uses in Sage mode.

That's my two cents, wanted to see if anyone had similar thoughts.

first off, C0 doesn't require a lot of chakra, as shown by deidara when he used it against sasuke, he already exhausted in that battle c1,c2,clay clone and c4, but he still manage to use c0 despite his chakra level at that time, and the damage is devastating.

 

[Scarecrow James]

Your arguments are invalid because they are solely based on speculations and they are lacking factual information for back up. Heck, almost everything people talk about in this forum is like this. Let's just enjoy the manga and tone down on preposterous claims.

what he said. Just ignore ppl there isnt enough info on tobi or minato for a 100% fail proof vs thread....just play the damn game

 

[sarutobi01843]

Look minato is my favorite of all and credit is do where credt is do becoming hokage is a feat in itself but it was said early on every ninja specializes in a specific area with some or no skill in others i truly think judging by how much tobi/madara uses teleportation and how little to no type of genjutsu it simply might be that he doesnt have any good strong genjutsu like itachi, even among the uchihas there were skilled and non skilled shinobi just because he had sharingan doesnt mean that he automatically gets crazy skilled in genjutsu i think he couldnt use anythin strong enough for minato

 

[Black Adam]

has anyone ever entertained the thought that tobi might not be one person?

 

[sarutobi01843]

and to squash this now a human has a central nerve system where an electrical pulse flashes through your brain and down your nerve system to control body and thoughts, every human has that which means a good genjutsu user could control it depending on location, situation, and target. Minato, madara, hashirama, itachi, kakashi, tsunade, every skilled ninja can get caught in a genjutsu, now having the skill to reverse it negate it or escape it is somethin completely different nobody is immune to genjutsu just good escape artist or not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sarutobi01843]

has anyone ever entertained the thought that tobi might not be one person?

Love your sig dude thats the man!!!!!!!!

 

[RaikageZero]

Well, since OP has been bashing out on everyone's intelligence, let me bash out on his argument. And OP, please feel honored that I joined the forums just for you and your argument's sake.

First off was the analyzation of FTG's mechanics. I agree that any space-time could logically fall under yin and yang. I'm really leaning toward that it's a combination of yin and yang plus shape transformation due to the fact that all s/t involves manipulation of both SPACE and time. One not so solid evidence from my assumption is the fact that Tobi's arm was kind of falling off (EWW and chapter 503 p 3 and latest episode btw) and disintegrating after he got hit by a rasengan from Yondaime Hokage. Knowing that Tobi uses his s/t migration so often, we could safely say that this disintegration is a consequence of his abuse of using s/t migration. After being hit, more than likely, he lost control of his chakra and more or less, he is also losing the form/shape of his body. Which is why I'm thinking shape matters in the aspect where manipulation of point of space is needed.

Where the logic goes wrong? Mastery of Yin and Yang release. Just because one has mastered a Yin and Yang release technique (even mainly yin) doesn't mean that they have mastered yin and yang release. My counter examples are the Nara clan's shadow jutsus (they use yin yang to control shadows), Naruto's kagebunshin (utilizes yin/yang release to create clones), Yamanaka clan's mind jutsus (pretty sure they use their imagination to project their minds), and Sai's Ink Jutsus(yin/yang to keep the form and give life to his drawings). All of these guys are still subject to genjutsu.

Just to remind everyone, we should all know yin creates shape and form from nothingness (well not from nothingness in the case of other yin/yang users) and yang gives life (chapter 510 pg 11). Even it is actually said by the 2nd Mizukage (ch 548 pg 18) that genjutsu is under yin release...

Does counterbalancing work with genjutsu? (specifically tsukuyomi if ever tobi ends up to use it. Hell, we haven't even seen him have a mangekyou in his current state) Truth is, you don't need to counter balance genjutsu. All you need is to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra either from yourself (if you're strong enough), or somebody else who can "release" you using their own chakra that even bijuus can stop genjutsu (just that Kurama didn't care about Naruto back then). Other ways are intense pain, being able to see/sense through the genjutsu through sharingan or I guess other techniques, or chilli pepper bombs from the anime.

Here's what I think:
Both Minato and Tobi are master tacticians. Hell if you read the manga/watch the episode, you read/hear Minato analyzing every aspect of the battlefield, even the tone of Tobi. Tobi on the other hand mustered up plans as the leader of the Akatsuki and even being able to manipulate Nagato with his own ideology.

In knowing that Minato is also a tactician, I'm pretty sure Tobi knows trying to catch Minato would be awfully hard and end up as an openning to the Yellow Flash. Besides, if he uses tsukuyomi, he'll end up having a down time trying to focus tsukuyomi (or even more if he doesn't have an eternal mangekyou) which would be a lethal mistake if the opponent is really fast. We don't know if Tobi has a tsukuyomi-level genjutsu, but logically, if he did, I'm pretty sure he would have used it when he was holding Naruto as a hostage. Why? Yondaime Hokage would be the biggest threat to his plan of releasing the kyuubi. It would be best to take care of the biggest threat at the time that you have a hostage than just teleport Kushina away.

I'd say both were playing mind games/chess with their battle. Which is why Kishi decided to have Minato say that whoever hits the quickest and obviously, Tobi knew that as well (mini seconds before he managed to hold Minato which he unluckily got hit by the rasengan).

It basically boils down to Tobi not intending to use it (2) through the logical assumption that both are very rational tacticians.

PS. We don't need to insult people's intelligence just because they can't make an effective argument. You just end up looking like a kid who's looking for acknowledgement that your argument just makes sense. Like really? This kind of attention-whoring is for kids who never knew how to argue and just found their first logical argument that other people agree on.

The way you keep saying thank you to almost every person who agrees and fiercely defensive insults to those who agree is a proof of that. There is so much lack of respect that it's clearly spelling out that your objective for those messages isn't for argument but rather attention and acknowledgement. Sir, all you need to say is for people to reread again your argument and try to understand it. Another thing, some people haven't even learned how to analyze. Analytical skill is a LEARNED skill not some sort of genius skill. Even if a lot of people doesn't know how to analyze, at least respect them.

PPS. I'm a Naruto and Sasuke fan btw mainly because I can relate to both of them. Just to say, Naruto deserved his acknowledgement and same for the 4th Hokage. You had an argument that justified that kind of acknowledgement but your attitude towards those who disagree is totally ridiculous.

[editted to make sure that the OP knows that I'm posting this just for him]

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

Well, since OP has been bashing out on everyone's intelligence, let me bash out on his argument. And OP, please feel honored that I joined the forums just for you and your argument's sake.

First off was the analyzation of FTG's mechanics. I agree that any space-time could logically fall under yin and yang. I'm really leaning toward that it's a combination of yin and yang plus shape transformation due to the fact that all s/t involves manipulation of both SPACE and time. One not so solid evidence from my assumption is the fact that Tobi's arm was kind of falling off (EWW and chapter 503 p 3 and latest episode btw) and disintegrating after he got hit by a rasengan from Yondaime Hokage. Knowing that Tobi uses his s/t migration so often, we could safely say that this disintegration is a consequence of his abuse of using s/t migration. After being hit, more than likely, he lost control of his chakra and more or less, he is also losing the form/shape of his body. Which is why I'm thinking shape matters in the aspect where manipulation of point of space is needed.

Where the logic goes wrong? Mastery of Yin and Yang release. Just because one has mastered a Yin and Yang release technique (even mainly yin) doesn't mean that they have mastered yin and yang release. My counter examples are the Nara clan's shadow jutsus (they use yin yang to control shadows), Naruto's kagebunshin (utilizes yin/yang release to create clones), Yamanaka clan's mind jutsus (pretty sure they use their imagination to project their minds), and Sai's Ink Jutsus(yin/yang to keep the form and give life to his drawings). All of these guys are still subject to genjutsu.

Just to remind everyone, we should all know yin creates shape and form from nothingness (well not from nothingness in the case of other yin/yang users) and yang gives life (chapter 510 pg 11). Even it is actually said by the 2nd Mizukage (ch 548 pg 18) that genjutsu is under yin release...

Does counterbalancing work with genjutsu? (specifically tsukuyomi if ever tobi ends up to use it. Hell, we haven't even seen him have a mangekyou in his current state) Truth is, you don't need to counter balance genjutsu. All you need is to disrupt the flow of the caster's chakra either from yourself (if you're strong enough), or somebody else who can "release" you using their own chakra that even bijuus can stop genjutsu (just that Kurama didn't care about Naruto back then). Other ways are intense pain, being able to see/sense through the genjutsu through sharingan or I guess other techniques, or chilli pepper bombs from the anime.

Here's what I think:
Both Minato and Tobi are master tacticians. Hell if you read the manga/watch the episode, you read/hear Minato analyzing every aspect of the battlefield, even the tone of Tobi. Tobi on the other hand mustered up plans as the leader of the Akatsuki and even being able to manipulate Nagato with his own ideology.

In knowing that Minato is also a tactician, I'm pretty sure Tobi knows trying to catch Minato would be awfully hard and end up as an openning to the Yellow Flash. Besides, if he uses tsukuyomi, he'll end up having a down time trying to focus tsukuyomi (or even more if he doesn't have an eternal mangekyou) which would be a lethal mistake if the opponent is really fast. We don't know if Tobi has a tsukuyomi-level genjutsu, but logically, if he did, I'm pretty sure he would have used it when he was holding Naruto as a hostage. Why? Yondaime Hokage would be the biggest threat to his plan of releasing the kyuubi. It would be best to take care of the biggest threat at the time that you have a hostage than just teleport Kushina away.

I'd say both were playing mind games/chess with their battle. Which is why Kishi decided to have Minato say that whoever hits the quickest and obviously, Tobi knew that as well (mini seconds before he managed to hold Minato which he unluckily got hit by the rasengan).

It basically boils down to Tobi not intending to use it (2) through the logical assumption that both are very rational tacticians.

PS. We don't need to insult people's intelligence just because they can't make an effective argument. You just end up looking like a kid who's looking for acknowledgement that your argument just makes sense. Like really? This kind of attention-whoring is for kids who never knew how to argue and just found their first logical argument that other people agree on.

The way you keep saying thank you to almost every person who agrees and fiercely defensive insults to those who agree is a proof of that. There is so much lack of respect that it's clearly spelling out that your objective for those messages isn't for argument but rather attention and acknowledgement. Sir, all you need to say is for people to reread again your argument and try to understand it. Another thing, some people haven't even learned how to analyze. Analytical skill is a LEARNED skill not some sort of genius skill. Even if a lot of people doesn't know how to analyze, at least respect them.

PPS. I'm a Naruto and Sasuke fan btw mainly because I can relate to both of them. Just to say, Naruto deserved his acknowledgement and same for the 4th Hokage. You had an argument that justified that kind of acknowledgement but your attitude towards those who disagree is totally ridiculous.

[editted to make sure that the OP knows that I'm posting this just for him]

well well, it looks like we have a great viewer on NB
so you finally decided to sign up ?
i hope you can become an active member in here because we need more people like you.

 

[Ninjinuity]

first off, C0 doesn't require a lot of chakra, as shown by deidara when he used it against sasuke, he already exhausted in that battle c1,c2,clay clone and c4, but he still manage to use c0 despite his chakra level at that time, and the damage is devastating.

In that battle, it is true that Deidara was severely exhausted to the point that his body wouldn't move, and yet he still had enough chakra to use C0. So I concede to your reasoning.

So, to get back on topic.
(I have only three posts... can't link to another thread...)

Let’s take a look at your example on Hiruzen. A Kage caught by a genjutsu. A good example to show that a Kage level can still be caught by a genjutsu though he was able to escape from it through the use of his other senses. The technique used was different from other genjutsu because it exerts an hallucinatory effect upon the eyesight only and not the brain that’s why he was able to use other senses to track down Hashirama. Now, place Minato on Hiruzen’s position. Can he escape that easily? Yes, he can because of FTG, hence, no technique like Bringer-of-Darkness can TRAP him.

Minato can FTG his way out of a regular sharingan genjutsu. This I can agree upon. The only genjutsu that could work on Minato would probably be Uchiha Shisui's Kotoamatsukami. The one that instills commands into the genjutsu. Though the said person did not have his mangekyou yet, following the story.

And why does the thread topic say that Tobi failed to use genjutsu on Minato? I don't think Tobi ever tried to use genjutsu on Minato at all. Or is the whole 'imprison you into my own dimensional world' thing a genjutsu?

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

So I was wondering, based on this factual reference, if the spammable C0 would require a lot of chakra, where would it come from? From the caster or from the revived recipient? If the chakra comes from the caster, then I can see how C0 can be spammed, so long as the caster can supply it. Which also would make me understand why Edo Deidara didnt C0-spam the Shinobi Alliance to death. Orochimaru and Kabuto 'didn't really look like they had chakra comparable to a tailed beast, unless I missed something.

Something else I thought of, although it is pure imagination, which I cannot prove. Edo Tensei is a tech that forcibly takes a soul from the Pure world and binds it to a (living?) body in the real world (correct me if that's wrong). Perhaps the soul still has a connection to the Pure world and that the Pure world had a supply of chakra similar to the natural chakra Naruto uses in Sage mode.

That's my two cents, wanted to see if anyone had similar thoughts.

as for edo tensei chakra supply is kinda debatable, like blaze and tsuchi arguing sometime ago

There is one Anko providing chakra for all of them. How powerful Edo's are going to be?



Itachi said every jutsu has a weakness. Edos are never at the same power lavel as the living nin. Hiruzen manage to defeat two hokages at the same time. Hashirama alone beat Madara. Can we assume Madara<Hiruzen?

Kabuto's weakness is that he streched his power to max and cannot use it to full extent like Oro who was using only two hokages and was yet thwarted by an old man.

I find the battle more or less ok. I think more pages per manga would have been good. Some battle scenes could have been elaborated and all that but, then people were also impatient to see the advance of Naruto. People were complaing about Naruto not sensing the war sooner and his growth had been pending as well.

Zabuza and Hanzo basically set the theme, Edo's are not fightig with their 100% unless forced to and kabuto is unable to handle all of them at the same time.

Kabuto is a secondary. The purpose of the Edo's just distraction and also because most of akatsuki is dead. it would have been a let down if Tobi would be using the rinnegan and jins and fighting the whole shinobi world on his own so other nins got something to do.

if Edo's would be as strong and fought as they could while living it would make Kabuto uber powerful and the main villain and tak all the focus away.

I wouldn't rush to put a judgement till the series is on. Some parts are always better and sometimes the scripts get lose. Usually when we read a book we see it as a whole. Here we critique almost every page..

And I don't know what I have been typing and I am not re-reading and editting.. too much - little time..lol

Anko is providing them with chakra?, manga link please. I know she is being used, but i cannot remember her exact purpose. I do know that edo's arent as strong as they were when they were alive, but even then with the power levels that we have seen from some edo's, for them to be defeated in that manner was sad.

The whole war is a disappointment imo. Its also focused on naruto too much. I mean his clones were all over the battlefield. We thought it was tobi vs bee & naruto and tbh i forgot that bee was even there. You seem to like to challenge me and so far i havent given you my full attention yet. The next time we cross paths, ill take my time with you U_U

What do you think she is used for? She had the curse mark and bit of oro's chakra. Only strong shinobies could handle the curse mark to begin with and she was among the people chosen to be used as a vessel till she changed her mind and Oro let her go.

Check out chaptes 520 and arond I don`t have time to find exact page where he told Tobi why he was not going to kills Anko .

here is the page where Anko is being used for chakra taking and kabtuo declaring power is flowing through him (from anko.)

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So many edos and one Anko.

I wonder nobody makes thread why oro let Anko just because..

I believe this is the chapter you were looking for;

Spoiler

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Regardless it doesnt tie in with what you said. As kabuto said its to strengthen the iwr binding power. She isnt providing the edo's with chakra <3

You missed this:

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power is flowing into me..

And what exactly is your point? if you minus Anko from the chakra equation basically you are decreasing Kabuto's power even more.

So one Kabuto alone( since according to you he is not Adding from Anko) deviding his chakra and you expect all the edos to be strong... And fight all the battles all over the field with equal attention..

And next you guys would be making threads asking when Kabuto got that major power up and if he is greater than Madara, tobi, Itachi, hashi or what not all put together..

 

[Ninjinuity]

thanks for the edo tensei info, Totsuka

 

[Totsuka No Tsurugi]

you're welcome