A Question about Madara

[Gerkak]

The moment the community as a whole realizes that the manga supersedes the databook is the moment arguments—at least the Mangekyou Sharingan—cease to exist.

Still wondering why people believe Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are required for Susanoo, when its entry in the databook was only indicative of Itachi's prerequisites for Susanoo. Sasuke's statement changes the demands for Susanoo, and, at this point, should be acknowledged when even discussing Madara's other douryoku.

Basically, to the original poster, Madara likely has two different Mangekyou Sharingan abilities we have not seen, and four at best if we consider Izuna's—whose abilities were instrumental in Madara's creation of "Perfect" Susanoo.

Edit: And to the user above who claimed that Madara or Izuna had 'Kagutsuchi', while possible, that is may not be who the Nidaime Hokage was speaking about.

While it is an entertaining idea, they were other Mangekyou Sharingan users besides Madara and Izuna; they were simply the first two awakened the eyes. After Madara left Konohagakure, there were other wielders of the Mangekyou that tried to capture Madara's power by creating their own Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan—which lead to the practice of killng their own brethren in hopes of attaining the eyes. [

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I think it is mostly sasuke fanboys that believe it. Because they want sasuke to have tsukuyomi so they can say he can use it to one-shot opponents.

 

[Draphsin]

The databooks state that you need amaterasu and tsukuyomi (or rather, master these techniques) as a requirement to unlock Susanoo. Either way, the fact remains, that anyone that can use susanoo can also use amaterasu and tsukuyomi.

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This is an outdated description of susanoo which only refers to itachi as the caster (look at the top for yourself).

Going by this logic, all susanoos have totsuka & yata (stated in that same databook page).

 

[Varrah]

Draphsin, for me, would you be kind enough to not respond to members who will not even consider the opposing argument? I've learned that topics regarding the validity of the databook in occurence to the manga can and usually will become heated. ​

 

[ReverseZero12]

This is an outdated description of susanoo which only refers to itachi as the caster (look at the top for yourself).

Going by this logic, all susanoos have totsuka & yata (stated in that same databook page).

Well, in this case, the databook is only talking about itachi's susanoo in particular.
But the bottom right paragraph specifically states that one has to have mastered both amaterasu and tsukuyomi to use susanoo. I rest my case.. BAM

 

[Draphsin]

Draphsin, for me, would you be kind enough to not respond to members who will not even consider the opposing argument? I've learned that topics regarding the validity of the databook in occurence to the manga can and usually will become heated. ​

Lol Fair enough, the last thing I want is to turn this into a flame thread U_U

 

[Bronze]

Draphsin what makes you think madara cant use amatersu and tskuyomi when the manga canonically stated that he can?

 

[Draphsin]

Well, in this case, the databook is only talking about itachi's susanoo in particular.
But the bottom right paragraph specifically states that one has to have mastered both amaterasu and tsukuyomi to use susanoo. I rest my case..

& in the top left paragraph it goes on to say how susanoo boasts yata & totsuka so as I said the databook is wrong, but believe what you want .

Draphsin what makes you think madara cant use amatersu and tskuyomi when the manga canonically stated that he can?

The manga has never stated that madara possesses ama & tsukuyomi, & I already explained my reasoning.

 

[Bronze]

The manga has never stated that madara possesses ama & tsukuyomi, & I already explained my reasoning.

to use susanoo you need tskuyomi and amatersu. itachi said this so did sasuke.

madara plan is tskuyomi eye, if he cannot use it then why did he plan for it?

 

[Draphsin]

to use susanoo you need tskuyomi and amatersu. itachi said this so did sasuke.

madara plan is tskuyomi eye, if he cannot use it then why did he plan for it?

Itachi never said that he tsukuyomi & ama are required for susanoo, & sasuke said susanoo is an MS technique. Neither of them stated that tsukuyomi & ama are required.

I answered this already.

 

[Bronze]

Itachi never said that he tsukuyomi & ama is required for susanoo, & sasuke said susanoo is an MS technique. Neither of them stated that tsukuyomi & ama is required.

I answered this already.

and they were wrong anyway.

madara cant come up with name called tskuyomi if he never knew about it. your explanation is just a moon genjutsu if it is then why call it tskuyomi.

two powers in both eyes are meant to be tskuyomi and amatersu.

reason madara hasn't used it is because kishi doesn't want him to use it.

 

[Booker]

The databooks state that you need amaterasu and tsukuyomi (or rather, master these techniques) as a requirement to unlock Susanoo. Either way, the fact remains, that anyone that can use susanoo can also use amaterasu and tsukuyomi.

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Except this is now wrong, and has been proven wrong multiple times. That databook is dated.

(1) Databook was reffering to Itachi. Since then, it's been retconned with Sasuke's statement that you only need both MS eyes for Susano'o, hence why Kakashi and Obito don't have it.

(2) Madara is the greatest user of Susano'o ever, and he has displayed no evidence of having either Amateratsu or Tsukuyomi. It's all speculation to say otherwise.

 

[Avinash012]

Just because EMS was activated doesnt mean that it was tsukuyomi, you can use regular sharingan genjutsu with MS activated.

& even if hashi had counters for ama, it doesnt change the fact that its a deadly jutsu that could end him if he was ever off guard.

@Bold: Tobirama has never seen ama before, he was referring to sasuke's flame control.

Yes ur right ......Madara is an Idiot he'll use Amaterasu even if he knw that it is useless.......!
Tobirama talkng abt Flam control.......?
How could he knw the name of that flam control.....?
The fact that he knw how to name that flam control wil prove that he knw abt it and his words clearly indicates that he had seen Amatarasu b4.......?
See this

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[Booker]

and they were wrong anyway.

madara cant come up with name called tskuyomi if he never knew about it. your explanation is just a moon genjutsu if it is then why call it tskuyomi.

two powers in both eyes are meant to be tskuyomi and amatersu.

reason madara hasn't used it is because kishi doesn't want him to use it.

All I hear is "blah blah blah all I have is speculation"

Madara hasn't shown Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. He has neither.

 

[Bronze]

All I hear is "blah blah blah all I have is speculation"

Madara hasn't shown Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. He has neither.

and all i hear is some troll talking out of his ass.

madara has tskuyomi which he needs for the eye moon plan. he has amatersu because tobirama mentions about enton which derives from amatersu.

tskuyomi+amatersu = susanoo.

he hasn't shown it because of the plot.

 

[Booker]

and all i hear is some troll talking out of his ass.

madara has tskuyomi which he needs for the eye moon plan. he has amatersu because tobirama mentions about enton which derives from amatersu.

tskuyomi+amatersu = susanoo.

he hasn't shown it because of the plot.

Infinite Tsukuyomi doesn't require Tsukuyomi. When Madara displayed the jutsu Obito and him would use on the Moon, it was a simple 3 tomoe Genjutsu.

Kagetsuchi simply means flame control. It has nothing to do with Amaterasu.

Has madara shown either? No? Then he doesn't have either.

 

[Bronze]

Infinite Tsukuyomi doesn't require Tsukuyomi. When Madara displayed the jutsu Obito and him would use on the Moon, it was a simple 3 tomoe Genjutsu.

Kagetsuchi simply means flame control. It has nothing to do with Amaterasu.

Has madara shown either? No? Then he doesn't have either.

Spoiler

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obito says you need tskuyomi for the eye moon plan. which means madara has tskuyomi.

it still derives from amatersu you idiot. why is it black flame then?

madara has them. he hasn't shown it because kishi doesn't want him.

 

[Booker]

Spoiler

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obito says you need tskuyomi for the eye moon plan. which means madara has tskuyomi.

it still derives from amatersu you idiot. why is it black flame then?

madara has them. he hasn't shown it because kishi doesn't want him.

Nowhere in that scan does Obito state that Tsukuyomi is needed. He said he will activate a certain jutsu called Inifinite Tsukuyomi, which was already shown to be the catalyst of this jutsu:

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That is a 3 tomoe genjutsu. And Madara later states that that jutsu will be the one to cause Infinite Tsukuyomi. Hence, Tsukuyomi is not needed.

You're not listening. The literal translation of Kagetsuchi is "flame control". It has nothing to do with amaterasu, it just has to do with control flames in general.

 

[Draphsin]

Nowhere in that scan does Obito state that Tsukuyomi is needed. He said he will activate a certain jutsu called Inifinite Tsukuyomi, which was already shown to be the catalyst of this jutsu:

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That is a 3 tomoe genjutsu. And Madara later states that that jutsu will be the one to cause Infinite Tsukuyomi. Hence, Tsukuyomi is not needed.

You're not listening. The literal translation of Kagetsuchi is "flame control". It has nothing to do with amaterasu, it just has to do with control flames in general.

I'm glad someone gets it, + rep .

 

[SilverfoxUchiha]

Yes it has, you want proof that madara doesnt have tsukuyomi? Well first of all ill address the fact that tsukuyomi isnt required for I/T, the simple explanation is actually a question, does obito have tsukuyomi? The answer to this question is no, therefore it is not required, Lol. But if you still dont believe me then there's more proof from madara stating that he can use regular sharingan genjutsu to perform I/T.

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Here he says "this" genjutsu, referring to the 3-T genjutsu he casted on obito, thus proving that regular 3-T genjutsu is all that's needed for I/T.

With all that being said, its evident that tsukuyomi isnt required, & now why madara doesnt have it.

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Here we can see raikage falling for madara's genjutsu, perfect opportunity for him to cast tsukuyomi, but he didnt. You may not think this proves that he doesnt have it but there is no other reason as to why he wouldnt use it in that situation. You also cant ignore the fact that there has never been any sighting of amaterasu during madara's battle with hashi (a life or death battle stated by himself), which makes the possibility of him having amaterasu highly unlikely as well.

Madara had acquired the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan after the death of Izuna which was decades before he rescued Obito, have you forgotten? This actually would support the fact that the Jutsu he may have been referring to regarding Obito was indeed Tsukuyomi. Although it's just speculation/theory but do you not remember when Obito, who having just witnessed Kakashi kill Rin, was plunged into a 'dark realm/world'. It's debatable whether this was Obitos own subconscious, or if he was actually under a Genjutsu; one which although different and somewhat darker, also held a similarity to Tsukuyomi albeit a dark one. Madaras Tsukuyomi?? (He had told Obito prior to this that he would return to him, and he seemed pretty sure of himself at the time).

So, for arguments sake, if Madara then has Tsukuyomi and also (Perfect) Susano'o, then what of Amaterasu?

Edit: That said, judging from the scan above (in which it clearly shows Madara displaying the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan not the Three Tomoe Sharingan) it is also possible that Madara imparted his Tsukuyomi ability to Obito as he states: 'The Jutsu will be the one to cause Infinite Tsukuyomi.

This theory is not impossible, if we remember how Itachi imparted Amaterasu into Sasukes eyes in a similar way.

There is nothing that states (even from the scan above) that Tsukuyomi is not required for Infinite Tsukuyomi, the only thing unclarified is the detail of the Jutsu itself.

 

[Bronze]

Nowhere in that scan does Obito state that Tsukuyomi is needed. He said he will activate a certain jutsu called Inifinite Tsukuyomi, which was already shown to be the catalyst of this jutsu:

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That is a 3 tomoe genjutsu. And Madara later states that that jutsu will be the one to cause Infinite Tsukuyomi. Hence, Tsukuyomi is not needed.

You're not listening. The literal translation of Kagetsuchi is "flame control". It has nothing to do with amaterasu, it just has to do with control flames in general.

next time read the words rather than seeing the pics.

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''It is the most powerful illusion ever, the ability to project my eyes onto the moon''.

sharingan is not the most powerful illusion. if madara cannot use tskuyomi then how come he heard about it?

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again madara says humans will sleep in infinite tsukyomi not sharingan genjutsu. tskuyomi is needed for the eye moon plan, otherwise it wont work.

the picture you showed only shows madara teaching obito how to use the tskuyomi plan.

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madara mentions that gedo mazo is the reason he was able to do this. it makes sense since GM is vessel for the juubi which powers up tskuyomi into immense levels.

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enton comes from amatersu it derives from amatersu. after awakening amatersu sasuke can control the flames because it came from amatersu. tobirama noticed their colour which means he saw amatersu before.