[Discussion] A flaw in people's thought processes

[SilverDuck]

This is my first time making a thread, so bare with me. I don't intend on making many threads, as they will usually be shit people have posted already. Anybody who has read my posts knows that I'm not an idiot, blowing steam out of my ass. I apologize if this runs long.

The plethora of "Tobirama is good/bad" threads has revealed how simple minded a majority of the people here all. I'm not sure if that's just the way the majority of ALL people are, but it certainly is here. I see people getting worked up and angry just because somebody has a different opinion, or perspective on the matter. You have got to realize that opinions, by definition, cannot be wrong. Since the topic itself is only how you perceive things to be, and not fact. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, no matter how dumb, or misguided that may be. As an example;

We see that Tobirama "predicted" the fall of the Uchiha and their eventual coup. The coup did not happen during his own reign, so people think that rids him of any responsibility in the matter. It's nothing but proof that he was right, and the Uchiha are bad. That seems to be the common belief. That's fine. It is how you perceive things. Based on the beliefs you hold, your opinion has formed. Nobody can say whether you are right, or wrong. The flip side of that argument is that Tobirama held onto his grudge for so long, he treated the Uchiha as second class citizens in the village. We know just how paranoid he was as far as Uchiha were concerned. We know that not a single Uchiha backed Madara in any way. It specifically states how they were all fully behind Hashirama, and the Leaf. Still, they were treated incorrectly by the 2nd Hokage. Tobirama is NOT a bad person in any way. He cared for the village, and he did his very best to protect it. He did his job, plain and simple. The reason his character exists is to show contrast with Hashirama. While Hashirama was capable of letting go of the past, and moving past the personal grudges between clans, Tobirama was not. He still saw the Uchiha as enemies, and he kept his enemies close to him. He founded the police force, and gave it to the Uchiha for that specific reason; to keep a very close eye on them. He did not do this with any other clan, because he had no personal vendetta against them. Even subconsciously, he held a deep disdain for the entire Uchiha clan, not just the people who killed his brother. Innocent, new Uchiha were treated the exact same way. Because of it, the Uchiha felt ostracized, and for good reason. Their was a prejudice against them. They did eventually attempt the coup that Tobirama "predicted". One view is that he made his own prediction come true by how he handled it. The Uchiha were sick of being punished, judged, and treated difficulty for something they didn't do. They were loyal to the leaf, not Madara. Liken it to civil rights movement. The Black Panthers, specifically. They emerged for the same reason the Uchiha coup did; their rights. Most people in the movement weren't violent. Not the famous ones, at least. Rosa Parks, MLK, etc. Then there were plenty who were violent, like the Black Panthers. They had felt so attacked, and oppressed that they did finally fight back. They did turn to violence. Some people would say they were in the wrong, and some would say the opposite. Neither side is "correct", since it's a matter of opinion.

My opinion, obviously, is that while the Uchiha did not handle themselves in the best manner, they aren't "evil" for what they did. Neither is Tobirama. I believe he was misguided, and couldn't get rid of his own prejudice, which caused him to make the decision to oppress the entire clan, unfairly. After decades of being treated like vile, evil trash, they became that. Living in the village, realizing how oppressed their people are because of something their ancestors had done. Seeing how none of the many clans in the village were treated the way they were. Over time, they snapped. Which led them to do something that they believed was "justified". Hiruzen then made the very difficult decision to have them eliminated. Again, that's a matter of opinion, too. Right or wrong, it happened. Everything that happened involving the Uchiha leads back to what their ancestors were involved with. They didn't get the opportunity to move on, and leave the past in the past. Not because they chose to hold a grudge, but because Tobirama refused to move on, which meant he wasn't capable of allowing them to move on. Does that make their actions justified? In my opinion, no. I don't think it does. I think both sides were in the wrong. Neither sides were evil, and neither side was good. They each had their reasons to do what they did. They each believed it was the right thing. Depending on your own beliefs, and thought processes, you will naturally see one party "higher" than the other, butit ddoesn't give you the right to rage and insult people just because they hold a different view on things. Instead of starting the flames, don't you think it would make more sense to try and understand the other side's opinion? Not because they are trying to change your opinion, but so that you can gain insight into the way shit works. Why do they think differently? Is it a valid argument? It will certainly help you grow as a human being. You cannot possible discuss anything if you absolutely refuse to consider the topic from different angles.

And that's my point. I'm aware that this will go over a lot of heads. I know that every shitty troll on this site will be switching from the "Itachi solos Sage" troll to the "Uchiha are evil, whatever" troll for the next few months. Kind of like how every troll somehow thought it would be funny to post the same "Tobi is ramen guy" thread over and over and over. People like that are not capable of higher thought, so this isn't intended for them. Their just a bunch of bored children. I do hope that somebody will understand my point, and realize that nothing is ever black and white. There are always shades of gray. And there are always 3 sides to every story. Person A, Person B, and the truth. Usually, the truth is a compromise between A and B. So, if you really want to understand why events occur, start considering it from all angles before making your conclusion. That is all.

 

[The Necromancer]

Dat text wall...

 

[SilverDuck]

Word. It's quite a bit of text. Probably more than the longest book the average NB poster has ever managed to read.

 

[SilverDuck]

I'm hoping that there is at least one member who's only reason to live is to up their post count on a Naruto message board by posting stupid shit like "DAT wallnofntext...".

 

[izzy89]

don't forget madara (the petty one) had obito masquerading as him and attacked the leaf...which caused further distrust among the village and the uchiha.

 

[Zenic]

This thread has no point, please enlighten me and tell me the purpose of this thread :sy:

 

[narito]

Man, I thought this thread was good. I like how you give reasoning for both sides actions rather than making a judgement without providing evidence. It'd be good if more people discussed like this rather than making pointless statements that don't positively contribute.

 

[Baka Sennin]

yeah the fault was on both sides. i do think that tobirama's perceived slight of the uchiha did lead to the current predicament. imo tobirama acted with good intentions for the best of the village but he was unable to let go of his grudge against the uchiha and the perceived slight undoubdetly built up resentment. add to that what orochimaru rightly said- the police force as a high station bred further arrogance and also animosity against hte uchiha as upholders of the law. so i believe that in the end the uchiha didnt feel part of the village which led them to their coup.

that said, I also think that people comparing Tobirama to Danzou are way off. when you look at their actions, Tobirama may be a bit extreme but still he's much closer to hashirama's way overall than danzou's extremism. when you look at the way they handled the uchiha, their subordinates, their vision of a hokage, their ideal for of government for the village, and the manner of their death, they're nothing alike

 

[Notaek]

You have got to realize that opinions, by definition, cannot be wrong.

o·pin·ion
/əˈpinyən/
Noun
A view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
The beliefs or views of a large number or majority of people about a particular thing.

It is my Opinion that your definition of opinion needs to be reconsidered. Opinions can be wrong, and not only can they, they usually are. However I agree with your main point, people are too caught up in dichotomy. Tobirama Was probably a good person, who held some prejudices and acted in a way that he thought was best for the village. What we don't know is how the story would have turned out if Tobirama had acted differently. That would be a matter of opinion.

 

[Whiteknight]

Tobirama is practical and a realist. Look at the situation when the village is first founded:

1) Hokage, and general questions of rank, are decided primarily by strength and respect
2) Uchiha gain strength through destabilizing emotional turmoil. In other words, the stronger an Uchiha is, the less emotionally stable that person is likely to be (have to watch the deaths of, or actually kill, people close to you, take their eyes, etc).
3) If the village is indeed peaceful, the Uchiha won't have the kinds of battles they need to awaken their sharingan eyes and upgrade them to MS or beyond, in order to become really powerful.
4) Without opportunities to unlock MS or EMS, Uchiha will never be as powerful in the future as they were in the past times of constant fighting
5) If the Uchiha never get as powerful as the Senju, no Uchiha after Madara would ever be powerful enough to become Hokage.


That's the basic situation. Madara is the only real hope for any Uchiha to become hokage. It isn't until much later that somebody like Shisui or Itachi are born who are talented enough to have a chance at it, and Madara can't predict the future. There were 4 non-Uchiha Hokage before any Uchiha were born who might have been qualified (and by that point, the social damage had already been done).

Madara knows a few things:

1) Madara isn't going to be the first hokage if it's put to a vote, because Hashirama is more popular for several reasons and obviously more powerful.
2) Madara is probably not going to be second hokage either. There's no way to expect Hashirama is going to die any time soon, and Tobirama is also more popular than Madara (we don't know if Tobirama was more powerful).
3) If Madara isn't the first or the second hokage, by the time a third hokage is needed Madara will be too old for it.
4) No other Uchiha are as powerful as Madara, and without large-scale wars no Uchiha would ever get that powerful again.

Tobirama knows a few things:

1) Madara doesn't like Tobirama, because Tobirama killed Izuna.
2) Tobirama, likewise, doesn't like madara because they were enemies (Hashirama and Madara were "friends", but Tobirama wasn't included in that) and because Uchiha killed Tobirama's other brother
3) Madara is powerful but also unstable because of the death of Izuna.
4) Madara can get more powerful by seeking revenge (like we saw with Sasuke, and like Tobirama said)
5) No other Uchiha is going to get that powerful, especially if there are few wars and if the Uchiha can be kept internal as a police force.
6) Madara simply isn't popular among the people, because he resisted peace for so long, and will never be voted hokage.

For what it's worth, we saw a very similar turn of events with Orochimaru: He couldn't become hokage because the bad research he was doing to make himself more powerful meant he wasn't good enough to be hokage. However without doing all that research, he might never have been powerful enough to be promoted anyway.

So that's what Tobirama thinks about Madara: That Madara is only powerful enough to be hokage BECAUSE he's too emotionally unstable to actually be elected. If he were more stable, he wouldn't have been powerful enough to be considered. Likewise any other Uchiha would probably fall into the same trap because to even be considered for the position of Hokage they would need to watch the deaths of close friends or family, then steal their eyes, which makes them emotionally unstable. The Uchiha, in other words, were a gigantic problem waiting to happen (and eventually, it happened)