A CES user would have to have contact with a GF user in order to actually have impact

[Reviewing Logic]

And how would they do that in CQC?

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Let me show you a picture...

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Do you see what is happening here?


Do you see what they are doing?

Let me show a similar case in gif form...

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They are parrying...

You see they don't allow the palms or fingers or any part of the hand.... also any part of the feet to touch them.

That is the whole taijutsu style.

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They expel lethal chakra from their tenketsu points... here their palms

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It is lethal...

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So parrying is one of the absolute taught footholds that they learn as part of the Hyuga clan.

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Neji even trying to avoid a graze

Wrist to Wrist

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Ankle to Ankle

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Now look at this...

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The slightest opening via attacking the ankle, wrist or other parts of the body that isn't the feet or hands

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and they go in for a counter, sealing the necessary points to release chakra from that limb or hand or whatever...

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Sealing points, or closing a chakra system is game over...

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So the only way a non taijutsu expert like a known CES user would fight in CQC is via environmental damage to try and mess the users footing, etc...

nevertheless the GF user has other means for that but that is another point for another thread.... (like dodging and jumping and attacking... weird things, I know)


Also note this...

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two parts come from this...

first Jounin expelling capabilities only being for the hand and feet and also 360 degree vision and the Hyuga ability to..

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I didn't even need to use these since the first point above shuts down the other arguments but the Hyuga that trained their abilities and KKG for 100s of years won't fall to an amature that doesn't know taijutsu.



I get it you like a certain character, you hate people bashing a said character, you are in some shipping wars, or whatever but reality doesn't bend to people's emotional arguments.



CES isn't even meant to be a Taijutsu or CQC first style in the first place... it is there to accompany the byakugou so that a medic could defend themselves, cause a diversion or escape.

You already have the mantel on some other class structure so you need not try and jump into another battle were one doesn't belong.


If life was that easy then everyone would learn CES and outshine the Hyuga who specialize in destroying things like CES.

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Or the Lee and Neji rivarly wouldn't even exist if CES... a thing without any penalties could easily defeat the GF

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They also react to crazier things...

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via their blindspot

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Rotation, Vacuum Palm and other long range or defense moves are not needed.

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and let alone the help of the byakugan.

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So people coming to me, over and over and over and over again saying the same points and thinking a 2 year taught CES can defeat a since childhood taught 100s of year old taijutsu style known as one of the strongest in the leaf that's whole gig is to destroy chakra based attacks?

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[Sagebee]

Both ces and gentle fist shown long distance capabilities both are most effective in close combat

 

[KidGamer65]

Nope. You guys really need to stop trying so hard.

 

[Reviewing Logic]

Nope. You guys really need to stop trying so hard.

and you need to actually make a valuable argument against this for once

 

[Aegon Targaryen]

Send a raven, I agree.

 

[KidGamer65]

and you need to actually make a valuable argument against this for once

There's practically nothing to argue against. Just the usual. Taking examples that literally prove nothing when it comes to actual combat with the CES user in question as every example shows kids from Part 1. Using horrible logic like "Neji was parrying Hinata during CE Exam so the same happens to Tsunade/Sakura". "Gentle Fist is a refined style, they can't be beaten by enhanced strength" and all that irrelevant drivel. What PTS Neji did to PTS Hinata and what PTS Neji did against anyone will never ever have any bearing on what happens in any Sakura/Tsunade vs. A Hyuga match up. Get that through your head. If you want to see an actual argument go read the latest threads on this topic because I'm never ever going to make a new, detailed post about this match up.

 

[Styles]

GG GF user's who don't have rotation.

Spoiler

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[TheEvilOne]

So now the Hyuugas not only can fly, they can also parry a hit from Tsunade/Sakura who casually shit on V1 Susanoo, ok.

 

[Reviewing Logic]

There's practically nothing to argue against. Just the usual. Taking examples that literally prove nothing when it comes to actual combat with the CES user in question as every example shows kids from Part 1. Using horrible logic like "Neji was parrying Hinata during CE Exam so the same happens to Tsunade/Sakura". "Gentle Fist is a refined style, they can't be beaten by enhanced strength" and all that nonsense. If you want to see an actual argument go read the latest threads on this topic because I'm never ever going to make a new, detailed post about this match up.

again a taijutsu style that is one of the strongest in the leaf

they fight by parrying and waiting for an opening

their style is completely based in countering against palms and chakra expulsion


they face off against other Hyuga's in clan training that also expelling chakra from their palms


palm hits are lethal


they can seal the network and close a chakra point

the have byakugan insight and precog



the list goes on and on

you think someone that got bested by Kabuto in taijutsu and another that got hit by the cloud ninja would win in CQC against a tiajutsu focused clan?


no they can't

 

[KidGamer65]

again a taijutsu style that is one of the strongest in the leaf they fight by parrying and waiting for an opening their style is completely based in countering against palms and chakra expulsion they face off against other Hyuga's in clan training that also expelling chakra from their palms palm hits are lethal they can seal the network and close a chakra point the have byakugan insight and precog the list goes on and on

you think someone that got bested by Kabuto in taijutsu and another that got hit by the cloud ninja would win in CQC against a tiajutsu focused clan?


no they can't

So? Having a better style doesn't automatically mean you win in close quarters. Are you going to say that Hinata or Neji beats RSM Naruto in close combat solely because they have a better Taijutsu style that is based on parrying for defense and light hits for offense? No. Thus you have to look at more than just the Taijutsu style. Everything that is striked out is irrelevant unless you are going to actually explain how the Hyuga in question accomplishes these things.

Sure, they can do all those things but it's irrelevant if they are unable to land clean hits to seal the chakra network with 64 palms. I'm also not a fan of the horrible logic in the bold. You talk about how reality doesn't bend to arguments based on emotion yet that's a lesson you have yet to learn yourself. What a Rusty Tsunade and pre Byakugo Sakura failed to do is irrelevant.

I already know why you guys never want to focus on direct comparisons when this match up comes up, because then you'd have to admit that the Hyuga in question loses. That's also another problem. You use "hyuga" as a blanket statement yet not all Hyuga are even close to being equal. So you don't even have an argument until you start naming names instead of using "Hyuga" to refer to multiple people of very different levels.

 

[Reviewing Logic]

GG GF user's who don't have rotation.

Spoiler

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it is like Shinobi can't jump

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or dodge...

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or use vacuum palm before impact

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So now the Hyuugas not only can fly, they can also parry a hit from Tsunade/Sakura who casually shit on V1 Susanoo, ok.

does CES come out from the ankle or wrist?

 

[Reviewing Logic]

So? Having a better style doesn't automatically mean you win in close quarters. Are you going to say that Hinata or Neji beats RSM Naruto in close combat solely because they have a better Taijutsu style that is based on parrying for defense and light hits for offense? No. Thus you have to look at more than just the Taijutsu style. Everything that is striked out is irrelevant unless you are going to actually explain how the Hyuga in question accomplishes these things.

Sure, they can do all those things but it's irrelevant if they are unable to land clean hits to seal the chakra network with 64 palms. I'm also not a fan of the horrible logic in the bold. You talk about how reality doesn't bend to arguments based on emotion yet that's a lesson you have yet to learn yourself. What a Rusty Tsunade and pre Byakugo Sakura failed to do is irrelevant.

I already know why you guys never want to focus on direct comparisons when this match up comes up, because then you'd have to admit that the Hyuga in question loses. That's also another problem. You use "hyuga" as a blanket statement yet not all Hyuga are even close to being equal.

okay all my points are valid since last I checked Tsunade and Hinata never had Sage mode reaction speed or senseing

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last I checked getting byakugou doesn't increase one's taijutsu abilties


stop comparing apples and oranges


again the CQC factor here is taijutsu skill and they are below the Hyuga in that factor.... Naruto is different he has sage sensing and frog kata

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you can't parry that since it doens't require interaction

Sasuke also has the sharingan precog, etc...


last I checked Sakura or Tsunade have NONE of that


so you never debunked anything... you just tossed in some other users into the ring that this thread or debate wasn't even trying to prove against

 

[Styles]

it is like Shinobi can't jump




or dodge...


or use vacuum palm before impact







does CES come out from the ankle or wrist?

None of those scans have the same amount of power of Sakura's impact and that wasn't even full Byakugou. Hyuga would get rek'd by Tsuande/Sakura with CES. Especially since not every Hyuga have rotation nor air palm or 64 palm.

 

[KidGamer65]

okay all my points are valid since last I checked Tsunade and Hinata never had Sage mode reaction speed or senseing
last I checked getting byakugou doesn't increase one's taijutsu abilties


stop comparing apples and oranges again the CQC factor here is taijutsu skill and they are below the Hyuga in that factor.... Naruto is different he has sage sensing and frog kata you can't parry that since it doens't require interaction Sasuke also has the sharingan precog, etc... last I checked Sakura or Tsunade have NONE of that so you never debunked anything... you just tossed in some other users into the ring that this thread or debate wasn't even trying to prove against

Why would they need Sage Mode reacting speed or sensing? I can easily substitute Naruto out for any average skilled top tier and come to the same conclusion. They win, meaning "Strongest style" isn't enough detail to support your premise. Thus you need to give more evidence or just stop asserting things you can't back up.

Sakura got faster and has better CQC feats after activating her seal for the first time. Tsunade's power was stated to increase and a pic of her hitting Madara (clone actually) with her fist was shown. Meaning overall battle power increases when the seal is activated and again when it's released.

Not sure why you are talking about Frog Kata when I never mentioned or even took that into consideration. Idk if you people are just playing dumb or something but the point is that "strongest style=best in Taijutsu" is false as it does not apply for every character. No one is saying that Sakura and Tsunade win because Naruto wins. Read man. Read. It'll save us all a lot of trouble.

I'll make this simple so you don't respond with something that hurts my eyes when I read it.

Certain sets of math problems have one way you can and should use to solve every problem in the set. Sometimes people will say "I found this answer another way", but it only works for that specific answer and not every scenario, thus it's still the wrong approach. Same thing with your logic. You can't apply it to every single character and have it be true thus it's bad logic.

 

[To Whatever]

It depends on the user. To say it wouldn't have an impact is wrong.


This is just a Sakura vs Hinata bs again.


One is a sensor and the other is a medic. People need to know their lanes. Both arent that impressive against actual threats.

 

[Reviewing Logic]

None of those scans have the same amount of power of Sakura's impact and that wasn't even full Byakugou. Hyuga would get rek'd by Tsuande/Sakura with CES. Especially since not every Hyuga have rotation nor air palm or 64 palm.

again jumping isn't hard and attacking someone before they even do an attack isn't hard either
Also I don't know who has what in terms of abilities but that isn't the point of this thread... instead it is taijutsu being used in CQC
I know though that all the Hyuga's we saw that wasn't Hinata, Hanabi, Hiashi/and his bro and Neji are all Jounin with only one being a special Jounin

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nevertheless as stated in my OP this isn't the point of the thread since that environmental impact method is solved via another set of tactics

 

[Reviewing Logic]

It depends on the user. To say it wouldn't have an impact is wrong.


This is just a Sakura vs Hinata bs again.


One is a sensor and the other is a medic. People need to know their lanes. Both arent that impressive against actual threats.

I am saying a Medic and a Taijtsu user fighting isn't even suppose to happen since they are different classes

it is just due to the overall reach that is Sakura vs Hinata we get some silliness


Sakura vs Hinata in healing and medical stuff? Sakura wins

 

[Reviewing Logic]

Why would they need Sage Mode reacting speed or sensing? I can easily substitute Naruto out for any average skilled top tier and come to the same conclusion. They win, meaning "Strongest style" isn't enough detail to support your premise. Thus you need to give more evidence or just stop asserting things you can't back up.

Sakura got faster and has better CQC feats after activating her seal for the first time. Tsunade's power was stated to increase and a pic of her hitting Madara (clone actually) with her fist was shown. Meaning overall battle power increases when the seal is activated and again when it's released.

Not sure why you are talking about Frog Kata when I never mentioned or even took that into consideration. Idk if you people are just playing dumb or something but the point is that "strongest style=best in Taijutsu" is false as it does not apply for every character. No one is saying that Sakura and Tsunade win because Naruto wins. Read man. Read. It'll save us all a lot of trouble.

I'll make this simple so you don't respond with something that hurts my eyes when I read it.

Certain sets of math problems have one way you can and should use to solve every problem in the set. Sometimes people will say "I found this answer another way", but it only works for that specific answer and not every scenario, thus it's still the wrong approach. Same thing with your logic. You can't apply it to every single character and have it be true thus it's bad logic.

again you never answered the question

I said CQC

taijutusu

Sakura and Tsunade are not greater then GF Taijutsu


you mentioned Naruto and other things but that just doesn't change the fact that they Sakura and other CES users are not taijutsu skilled, especially against a Taijutsu focused clan in CQC

you clinging on the notion that a Hyuga didn't face against them as if that would justify them being able to par against a taijutsu pro

which doesn't work

spinning and what not doesn't change that I told you they can only expel chakra from their feet and hands and the GF taijutsu style blocks via wrist and ankles

they don't allow palms or feet to touch... I mentioned frog kata since unlike CES the energy can still impact you if you dodge it


if you dodge a CES punch or parry it via the wrist and the punch doesn't connect to anything then it doesn't hurt you

 

[KidGamer65]

again you never answered the question

I said CQC

taijutusu

Sakura and Tsunade are not greater then GF Taijutsu


you mentioned Naruto and other things but that just doesn't change the fact that they Sakura and other CES users are not taijutsu skilled, especially against a Taijutsu focused clan in CQC

you clinging on the notion that a Hyuga didn't face against them as if that would justify them being able to par against a taijutsu pro

which doesn't work

spinning and what not doesn't change that I told you they can only expel chakra from their feet and hands and the GF taijutsu style blocks via wrist and ankles

they don't allow palms or feet to touch

What is this based on? Because until you start bringing feats of individuals your logic will continue to boil down to "I think they win because the Gentle Fist is a better Taijutsu style" You aren't even making arguments at this point.

-Tsunade has a 5 in Taijutsu. That's higher than all your precious Hyuga except Hiashi. Tsunade can fight against 5 Susanoo clones for an extended period of time with her bare hands. That's a better feat than all your precious Hyuga have.

"Taijutsu pro" isn't and never will be an argument. Hinata's CQC feats are inferior to all of Sakura's CQC feats from even before she had the Byakugo Seal. I don't care about the Gentle Fist being the strongest style when in reality the effectiveness is determined by the user, and Sakura and Tsunade's physical superiority circumvents the fact that they are not as skilled. I don't care how the Gentle Fist style blocks. I'm not taking anyone who implies that they can parry the physical strikes of people with enough physical power to break Susanoo seriously.

So you should probably bring more feats and less opinionated statements if you want to prove your point. What has any Hyuga ever done in this Manga to be put above Sakura and especially Tsunade in close combat. I'll wait.

 

[Team7monaa]

Sakura literally stands there and punches the ground and she wins. Air-palm requires a buildup of chakra, 64-palms requires footing and the opening is just a waste of time, and last time I checked if a hyuuga tried jumping from an impact as large as the one Sakura amassed in the war arc the boulders would crush them like it did with Hiashi in the Last.

Also, this idea that hyuuga's cannot be attacked or strikes is terrible because Hinata failed to dodge an assault by three white zetsu and Neji got latched onto one, + the Byakugan itself can't be used for long periods of time, and seeing Sakura and Tsunade have much better speed feats and are much smarter the user will eventually have to un-release the byakugan which leaves them wide open to an attack or counter-strike.