[Discussion] 4 things that are labeled as wrong, but arent.

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Pavoneo

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Another thing.. Organization.

Human nature makes us organize things to make them neat and easy to use. But it's only considered "healthy" to a certain degree? It's kind of ridiculous. Our entire world revolves around organization. (Language, science, math, etc.) yet when someone gets a little too organized people tend to think it's a bad thing and label is OCD? It seems a little hypocritical. We wouldn't be able to function in this society without people who have OCD and need everything to be perfect and organized.
 

NarutoVsGoku

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*sigh U_U. Why do you make simple things so complex? Everything you just asked me, again U_U in terms of where I stand on these things can be answered simply just by reading my post. Your trying to turn a simple discussion into a complicated debate. This thread is about opinions & point of views. All you have to do, is read the 4 things I posted about and if you disagree on one and/or all of them, then simply explain WHY you disagree in the first place. Everytime I ask you something, you never answer. You only reply with another question instead of just providing a simple answer.

lol the thing is im not complicating anything.. im actually trying to simply things at least for myself.

why didnt you just answer the questions? are they hard questions? i dont get it with you. i already read what you wrote and i dont get the point. there is no point... at least for me. im sorry but i dont see things the way you do or the way others do so you have to excuse me if im just asking you to give me a clear picture on what your getting at.

why is that a big deal?

if your not going to answer my previous questions then can i ask this; what is the point? give me a summary of everything

Another thing.. Organization.

Human nature makes us organize things to make them neat and easy to use. But it's only considered "healthy" to a certain degree? It's kind of ridiculous. Our entire world revolves around organization. (Language, science, math, etc.) yet when someone gets a little too organized people tend to think it's a bad thing and label is OCD? It seems a little hypocritical. We wouldn't be able to function in this society without people who have OCD and need everything to be perfect and organized.

do you know what OCD is?

do you find a person who washes their hand every 5 minutes to be normal? is that "perfection" for you? is that being "organized"?

what is "normal"? is it normal for a person to stay in the house because they are afraid of the germs outside? is it normal for a person to freak out when they see odd numbers? they have to have the radio station at an even number, the tv channel and volume settings at even numbers, they have to have even numbers of everything in the house, is that normal?

i mean theres different degrees of OCD and different ways people express it but most time people with OCD are not happy with the fears they have. or they arent happy with the things they do. some of them lose their jobs, or it affects their social lives because of their OCD. like one guy would shave his face several times, over and over every morning and be late to work and he was fired as a result.

maybe you should look into OCD
 
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Pavoneo

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lol the thing is im not complicating anything.. im actually trying to simply things at least for myself.

why didnt you just answer the questions? are they hard questions? i dont get it with you. i already read what you wrote and i dont get the point. there is no point... at least for me. im sorry but i dont see things the way you do or the way others do so you have to excuse me if im just asking you to give me a clear picture on what your getting at.

why is that a big deal?

if your not going to answer my previous questions then can i ask this; what is the point? give me a summary of everything

A summary? Society is ignorant. They consider things that come by pure nature bad. what's your opinion?

do you know what OCD is?

do you find a person who washes their hand every 5 minutes to be normal? is that "perfection" for you? is that being "organized"?

what is "normal"? is it normal for a person to stay in the house because they are afraid of the germs outside? is it normal for a person to freak out when they see odd numbers? they have to have the radio station at an even number, the tv channel and volume settings at even numbers, they have to have even numbers of everything in the house, is that normal?

i mean theres different degrees of OCD and different ways people express it but most time people with OCD are not happy with the fears they have. or they arent happy with the things they do. some of them lose their jobs, or it affects their social lives because of their OCD. like one guy would shave his face several times, over and over every morning and be late to work and he was fired as a result.

maybe you should look into OCD

Ok.. Maybe using OCD when I didn't have a full understanding of it was a stupid idea.. No need to be rude. The same thing could still be said for my post using the thing about OCD. People frown upon people who have a need to be extremely organized. Which is just stupid.
 
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MidKnight

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lol the thing is im not complicating anything.. im actually trying to simply things at least for myself.

why didnt you just answer the questions? are they hard questions? i dont get it with you. i already read what you wrote and i dont get the point. there is no point... at least for me. im sorry but i dont see things the way you do or the way others do so you have to excuse me if im just asking you to give me a clear picture on what your getting at.

why is that a big deal?

if your not going to answer my previous questions then can i ask this; what is the point? give me a summary of everything


*sigh U_U why couldnt you just say that in the first place? No one is forcing to understand or participate in this thread/discussion, you are in this thread of your own free will. Just because you dont see the point of this thread, doesnt make it pointless. Last time I checked this was the "General Disscussion" section. It specifically states "Discuss here the latest headlines and debate on serious matters" Therefore, how is my thread pointless?
 
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NarutoVsGoku

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A summary? Society is ignorant. They consider things that come by pure nature bad. what's your opinion?

Ok.. Maybe using OCD when I didn't have a full understanding of it was a stupid idea.. No need to be rude. The same thing could still be said for my post using the thing about OCD. People frown upon people who have a need to be extremely organized. Which is just stupid.

THANK YOU... my opinion. i will share it.. i want to understand this guys first and i will share it with him and you too..

im sorry if i sounded rude. extremely organized? sigh like i was trying to get at OCD is not so much as being organized. its just about a person obssession of having things the way they want. sometimes the case the person wants to be organized but its not always the case.

the example of the guy shaving his face several times is a true story. how is that being organized to shave your face 7-12 times a day and then being late to work as a result? his face was shaven the first time around but he did it several more times and lost his job, is that being organized?

too much of anything is bad. being too organized is also bad. a person who is too organized is not prepared for the curveballs that life throws at you. they arent flexible, and OCD people are prime examples of that. an OCD person who tries to clean and disenfect everything will freak out at the sight of dust, they cant go have a picnic, or go to an amusement park or go outside period because fear of germs...

ugh i could go all day with this but i think you get where im getting at.. basically too much of everything sucks and that goes for organizing.. we are not perfect and nothing we do can be perfect.

*sigh U_U why couldnt you just say that in the first place? No one is forcing to understand or participate in this thread/discussion, you are in this thread of your own free will. Just because you dont see the point of this thread, doesnt make it pointless. Last time I checked this was the "General Disscussion" section. It specifically states "Discuss here the latest headlines and debate on serious matters" Therefore, how is my thread pointless?

lmfaooo OMG really man?!!??! lol sigh

listen i said i didnt find the point.. never did i say this thread is pointless. in fact i dont think its pointless, i just dont see the point in your OP.. let me repeat but rephrase this to aviod any other misunderstanding i dont get it... no i said that already and you didnt get it let me rephrase again... i am confused....

its not you man, its me...

btw you arent answering any of my questions... im really am wasting my time even trying to understand your point. your being defensive for no reason and ignoring my questions.. this is just getting annoying now.....

let me try for the last time... but im not asking you anything anymore cuz your too scared to answwer...

this is what you said:

1. selfishness is ok because its human nature. people are naturally selfish so selfishness shouldnt be a negative thing. i should be selfish and proud of it

2. perversion is ok because its human nature. we think about *** so we shouldnt feel bad about thinking about ***. i should openly express how much i love boobs, butts, vaginas, porn, fetishes etc etc

3. being gay is not a bad thing because gay people are gay (lol). be gay and proud. gay is not bad because its part of gay peoples nature. they didnt choose to be gay

4. fat people love to eat and you need to eat so theres nothing wrong with eating alot and getting fat as a result..

thats basically what you said in 2-3 sentences. im paraphrasing you! thats your opinion.
 

Sarutobi Sasuke

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To be Selfish - Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others.

Wiki - Selfishness is harming someone else in order to help oneself.

Say I deny someone some food knowing full well that he'll suffer and die if I don't share any with him because I'm selfish. And I have plenty for myself and him. If he dies because of my selfishness does that make my actions immoral?
 

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I agree. >_>
 

MidKnight

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To be Selfish - Caring supremely or unduly for one's self; regarding one's own comfort, advantage, etc., in disregard, or at the expense, of those of others.

Wiki - Selfishness is harming someone else in order to help oneself.

Say I deny someone some food knowing full well that he'll suffer and die if I don't share any with him because I'm selfish. And I have plenty for myself and him. If he dies because of my selfishness does that make my actions immoral?

We are not obligated to decide what is immoral and what isnt. We choose to do so through free will. I do not have a yes or no answer for your question because there isnt anything to pass judgement on, 1.I am a human being just like you, therefore I am not entitled to decide as to weither you are right or wrong, 2. It would be your decision weither or not to help him. IMO, it would be right for you to help him, but it also wouldnt be wrong if you didnt.
 
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NarutoVsGoku

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We are not obligated to decide what is immoral and what isnt. We choose to do so through free will. I do not have a yes or no answer for your question because there isnt anything to pass judgement on, 1.I am a human being just like you, therefore I am not entitled to decide as to weither you are right or wrong, 2. It would be your decision weither or not to help him. IMO, it would be right for you to help him, but it also wouldnt be wrong if you didnt.

woah.. you ignored me completely...

also... you contradict yourself.. you say we are not obligated to decide whats moral or immoral but you have a personal opinion about it would be right if for someone to help someone out..

this is shit... it doesnt make sense but more importantly its bull shit...

let me pose you a better example then Sarutobi Sasuke..

a man rapes a woman.. simple scenenario.. the man overpowers a woman and haves *** with her agaisnt her consent. is that right or wrong? moral or immoral?
 

Pavoneo

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lol the thing is im not complicating anything.. im actually trying to simply things at least for myself.

why didnt you just answer the questions? are they hard questions? i dont get it with you. i already read what you wrote and i dont get the point. there is no point... at least for me. im sorry but i dont see things the way you do or the way others do so you have to excuse me if im just asking you to give me a clear picture on what your getting at.

why is that a big deal?

if your not going to answer my previous questions then can i ask this; what is the point? give me a summary of everything

THANK YOU... my opinion. i will share it.. i want to understand this guys first and i will share it with him and you too..

lmfaooo OMG really man?!!??! lol sigh

listen i said i didnt find the point.. never did i say this thread is pointless. in fact i dont think its pointless, i just dont see the point in your OP.. let me repeat but rephrase this to aviod any other misunderstanding i dont get it... no i said that already and you didnt get it let me rephrase again... i am confused....

its not you man, its me...

btw you arent answering any of my questions... im really am wasting my time even trying to understand your point. your being defensive for no reason and ignoring my questions.. this is just getting annoying now.....

let me try for the last time... but im not asking you anything anymore cuz your too scared to answwer...

this is what you said:

1. selfishness is ok because its human nature. people are naturally selfish so selfishness shouldnt be a negative thing. i should be selfish and proud of it

2. perversion is ok because its human nature. we think about *** so we shouldnt feel bad about thinking about ***. i should openly express how much i love boobs, butts, vaginas, porn, fetishes etc etc

3. being gay is not a bad thing because gay people are gay (lol). be gay and proud. gay is not bad because its part of gay peoples nature. they didnt choose to be gay

4. fat people love to eat and you need to eat so theres nothing wrong with eating alot and getting fat as a result..

thats basically what you said in 2-3 sentences. im paraphrasing you! thats your opinion.

You may not have actually meant there is no point. But saying there isn't a point isn't really the best way to get across that there is a point but you just don't understand it.. >.> Can you see why he thought you said there was no point?

woah.. you ignored me completely...

also... you contradict yourself.. you say we are not obligated to decide whats moral or immoral but you have a personal opinion about it would be right if for someone to help someone out..

this is shit... it doesnt make sense but more importantly its bull shit...

let me pose you a better example then Sarutobi Sasuke..

a man rapes a woman.. simple scenenario.. the man overpowers a woman and haves *** with her agaisnt her consent. is that right or wrong? moral or immoral?

Now, I could be wrong here. But what I think Midknight is trying to say is that there is no one superhuman, or one dictator who decides what is right and wrong. Each situation has a person who thinks something is right, and someone else who will think it's wrong.

There's no definite answer, just opinions of the matter.
Sorry this is so lengthy >.>
 
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NarutoVsGoku

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You may not have actually meant there is no point. But saying there isn't a point isn't really the best way to get across that there is a point but you just don't understand it.. >.> Can you see why he thought you said there was no point?



Now, I could be wrong here. But what I think Midknight is trying to say is that there is no one superhuman, or one dictator who decides what is right and wrong. Each situation has a person who thinks something is right, and someone else who will think it's wrong.

There's no definite answer, just opinions of the matter.
Sorry this is so lengthy >.>

I get it but the guy is just being stubborn to answer my questions and explain himself. Thats what led to the confusion, i had to reword myself several times and he still takes it the wrong way i just dont get how that even happened.

Theres a difference between something not having a point and something being pointless. The first just lacks a focus or reason while the latter means its insignificant

So you mean an entity? When you say "superhuman". Like a God?

And you n midknight are basically saying morals are subjective. So theres no right or wrong. So a man rapes a woman and theres no right or wrong? It also plays into the guys selfish and perverted nature.

He wanted the woman while the woman didnt want him. And he "took" her agaisnt her will. That plays into selfishness. And he raped her cuz he lusted after her and wantes to *** her and its ok cuz its in his nature and the rape wasnt morally wrong because theres no right or wrong especially when it comes to *** cuz we are perverted by nature..


Right? Midknight feel free to jump in
 
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We are not obligated to decide what is immoral and what isnt. We choose to do so through free will. I do not have a yes or no answer for your question because there isnt anything to pass judgement on, 1.I am a human being just like you, therefore I am not entitled to decide as to weither you are right or wrong, 2. It would be your decision weither or not to help him. IMO, it would be right for you to help him, but it also wouldnt be wrong if you didnt.
I strongly disagree. It is clear what is the moral desicon here, and it should be common sense. Selfishness is wrong, pure and simple. It has been so in philosophies and ethics from the beggining of civilisation. Morals don't come from some deities and higher beings, but from the common sense of living in a society. We get our's from our parents and education and they become our second nature, expressing themselves even trough emotions and empathy.
You say that selfishness is not immoral, that it is justifiable because it is a part of a so called human nature. This opinion is nothing new to me. I've seen this kind of platitude used many times before. It is an excuse of a weakling and a fearful person.
We are no longer animals, roaming trough the wilderness. We have changed and continue to change our nature by the influence of our ever evolving, ever changing society. All that aside, as long as you live there is a chance to learn, to change and better yourself. I will not lie to you, it is hard work. Changing your nature, battling yourself is maybe the hardest thing you'll ever do. Humans are the creatures of habbit, set in their ways. But it is definitely possible -I've seen it happen. Some people will say it is a miracle, a gift from whichever God they worship. I say it is all about will and guts.
Besides, do you honestly want to be friends with a selfish person. I find such individuals obnoxious and annoying.
 
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RAMENATOR

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We live In a world of labels. Everything has a lable and everthing falls into a category. But who are we to contradict another human being, when we are all In the same "boat" living In this harsh reality?

1. Selfishness: This is a natural instinct. The opposite of selfishness, which is selflessness, is something that we must become aware of through instinct & knowledge & continiue to develope as an act or moral value. Therefore it is not instinct (natural). For example, When you are hungry. The first thought that appears In your head isnt "Is someone hungry?" or "I wonder how many people are hungry?" No. The first thought that appears In your head is "I am hungry" or "Man, I'm starving" Your concern for someone elses hunger such as "Are you hungry?" or "I'm starving, what about you?" comes secondary to your own desire, therfore it is not instinct. This is selfishness, on a small scale, but it is still selfishness. Being selfish is inevitable, because human beings are natrually selfish. How can instinct be labeled as wrong? It cant. I dont think it is selfishness itself that we are aware of, but rather the guilt of being selfish that bothers us.

2.A strong desire for lust (being a "pervert"):An extreamly strong *** drive, or strong desire for lust, is something that has been labeled by all areas of society. Religion,culture,gender, etc. It has been labeled from being called a sin, being "perverted" or "a pervert" etc,etc. Humans are natrually sexually oriented creatures. EVERY human being (Excluding children) has experieced a desire for lust in some kind of way. Weither it was a thought, a reaction, or an actual act of sexuality. However, there are some of us who have a stonger desire for this than other human beings. Those of us who have more than just "a stong *** drive" have been labeled for something that we natrually feel. We are either called a pervert, a wh***, etc. How is this wrong? Is there a limit on the amount of sexual desire that a human being can have before he or she falls into a category? You can measure,pounds & inches,etc. But you cannot measure the emotion or desire of another human being. Once again, I feel that guilt plays a huge role In people who are like this an feel ashamed. Why should you feel guilt from something that is human nature? Your human nature.

3.Homosexuality: This is also something that has been highly looked down upon. Here is something that most people dont realize about gays. Gays do not wake up one day and say "I think I want to be gay" or "From now own, I am gay". Is it possible that a scenario like this can occurr and one can put this into a form of practice? Yes, it is. But it would be false. We cannot change what we are attracted to at will. A straight man cannot wake up one day & say "Today I'm going to be attracted to men." because he is straight, if he does so other wise that would change his sexual preference. There are only two things 1.You must become AWARE that you are gay, 2.You must ACCEPT that you are gay. Gays are instinctively attracted to the same gender, attaction is a natural human instinct. When someone says "I think I'm gay" or "I might be turning gay" they are becoming aware of something that they have been all along. They just hadnt discovered it instictively or became aware of it. When someone finally admits that they are gay, they are accepting their sexual preference which is what they are attracted to. How the hell is it wrong to be natrually attacted to something? Does that make any sense at all? I dont think it does.

4.Being Fat (overweight):Being fat is also something that is becomming more looked down upon as we progress. There is something that we all have as human beings, and that is free will. WE are In controll of our bodies. If we choose to eat a certain way or look a certain way, we have every right to do so as human beings. Some people are fat because of genetics, some are fat because of disorders, and some just became fat of their own free will. But how is this neccesarily wrong? There is pleasure In taste, even those who just "eat to live, not live to eat" find some amount of pleasure (non-sexual ofc) from taste and the satisfaction of being full. The pleasure of taste, and the satisfaction of being full is a natrual instinct, is there a limit on the amount of satisfaction that we can feel from food? And then people always play the "health risk card". EVERYONE is at risk of health problems. An athelete is at risk of permanantly damaging their bodies, or possibly obtaining a lethal injury. Even those who just "work out to stay healty" are at risk of harming themselve. Also being skinny does not make you healty. Skinny people can develope eating disorders to stay skinny, skinny people are also at risk of heart disease and other health issues as fat people are. Just because we feel a certain way about how something should look, or looks, we do not have the right to pass judgement on that individual. We are ALL human beings. And we can look any damn way we please because that is our natrual given right.

What do you think about these things? What do YOU think is right & wrong? If so then WHY? Also if there is something else that is labeled as wrong, but you think is right,please feel free to bring it up U_U.

Morality and your personal ethos help you determine what is right or wrong. People get their moral beliefs from a variety of sources and it's very difficult to say one source is an authority over the other. It is up to the individual to select where they get their morals and then determine what is or is not ethical.

Pretty much, you have to ask "Right or wrong by whose standards?" One may be right in one set of morals but utterly wrong in a different set. Morality is essentially a philosophical topic with which there isn't one definitive answer that suits everyone.

Those 4 may not be wrong to you, but who are you to tell me or anyone else that those 4 are not wrong in our eyes? Some things you can explain or excuse, but in general, one might see all 4 of those as ultimately wrong or ultimately right, but you cannot tell someone who believes the opposite to be true that they are wrong.

Some things are inherently incorrect and thus it is safe to point that out (such as making a left turn when you must make a right turn to reach your destination; it's wrong because it takes you away from where you are going). There are valid arguments for all views of the 4 labels above, so it is difficult to say one way is inherently wrong. However, even from a scientific or social aspect, you can articulate with a high degree of probability why those 4 things are in fact incorrect behaviors.

Such as, homosexuality does not increase the population, thus, biologically, it is a flawed approach at life.

Selfishness, while it may get you the things you want, it will most likely make you suffer socially and possibly increase your likelihood to engage in a physical altercation which could jeopardize your safety.

A high *** drive can cause you to be extremely promiscuous and thus increase your chances of contracting and STD/STI, producing an unwanted pregnancy, negatively affect your social/love life, or possibly lead you to experiment in abnormal sexual practices which could be deemed illegal or have harmful side effects.

Obesity is a biological and social issue as not maintaining a healthy weight puts you at risk for further health problems and also is not viewed too highly by others. While some may have a disorder that causes obesity, the majority of persons do not and thus are engaged in a harmful activity. From a biological standpoint, you are at a greater risk of dying at an earlier age so this too can be seen as a flaw.


I do see your point and I can accept that you don't see anything wrong with those 4 things, but other people do see something wrong so it is equally hypocritical to tell those other people that they are the ones who are actually wrong. Again, it's all perspective, so you personally decide what you see as right or wrong, but you shouldn't force that view on others. You can state/express/explain your viewpoint freely, just don't force or demand others to agree.

o.o
 

'Toxic

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I get it but the guy is just being stubborn to answer my questions and explain himself. Thats what led to the confusion, i had to reword myself several times and he still takes it the wrong way i just dont get how that even happened.


What he's saying is pretty easy to understand.
First point:

Selfishness: He's saying that why do 'we' all dare to call someone else selfish and make them feel bad when we, without truly meaning to or knowing, act selfish about things. The example he gave about the food was a pretty good one.

Second:

A strong desire for lust (being a "pervert"): He's not saying a men raping a girl is alright or using the excuse "I'm just too damn horny all the time" he's not wrong about it being a human instinct though. Still he's just saying that we all, at one point (what he said)------- "EVERY human being (Excluding children) has experienced a desire for lust in some kind of way. Whether it was a thought, a reaction, or an actual act of sexuality"---- if a women can have 100 orgasms in 1 day, does that make her a perv even though it's a medical condition? there's people who become addicted to *** and need help, we shouldn't just call them pervs. Why is it that some illnesses we accept but not others.

third:

Homosexuality: People just label others and take away their rights b/c they don't fit the 'normal quota' and it's wrong. A homosexual doesn't decide over night to be gay. There's people who never accepted it so they date the opposite gender and later on they do accept it and may say "I'm gay" this makes ppl wonder and get upset but it happens. I know a homosexual guy who's gay but dates girls to hide it from others. It's wrong b/c he's lying to those girls and making other homosexuals seem like liars. Some people are crazy, I know..they think it's a 'new style' to be gay..those people cant be consider gay and honestly you can see if a person is gay or no by taking scans of their brains. If you keep up with scientific news, gay men's brains are structured like those of straight women and Lesbian's have their brains structure like a mans brain. Another caused that they found is that these changes happen as the baby is in the womb, hormonal changes. Religion fights it but really, how people act towards them..is purely inhuman, sick and repulsive. How is it right for us to condemn them and yet, we're all sinners..people choose what to argue about b/c the bible has way many more sins and yet people do them.

fourth:


Being Fat (overweight): Over the years, our society has changed and genes also DO change over time. Some ppl are naturally born to be skinny and some aren't. There's diseases that pretend one from gaining weight or losing. Yet we treat it as if it was something so gross and wrong, again. This is just another way how people like to judge others and say it's wrong because they 'don't fit' the 'normal quota'




What he gave were just opinions anyways and he says so, he's asking for the opinion of others now. Do they believe is wrong or right and why?..what's so complicated to understand about something so simple.

However, even from a scientific or social aspect, you can articulate with a high degree of probability why those 4 things are in fact incorrect behaviors.

Such as, homosexuality does not increase the population, thus, biologically, it is a flawed approach at life.

To say what you just said, to even categorize Homosexuality as a incorrect behavior & flawed approach at life..that's a pretty close minded thought coming from you. You may think that but you don't know what those people feel. How can the fact that someone is BORN homosexual be a behavior, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. I would gladly even put my life in the line and bet on it.

Over-reproducing is also a flawed approach at life just saying...that's a fact because it doesn't help anyone at all, it just harms us.
Overpopulation


 
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RAMENATOR

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To say what you just said, to even categorize Homosexuality as a incorrect behavior & flawed approach at life..that's a pretty close minded thought coming from you. You may think that but you don't know what those people feel. How can the fact that someone is BORN homosexual be a behavior, it's not an opinion, it's a fact. I would gladly even put my life in the line and bet on it.

Over-reproducing is also a flawed approach at life just saying...that's a fact because it doesn't help anyone at all, it just harms us.
Overpopulation



Close-minded? Please. Biologically, if you consistently engage in a reproductive manner that does not result in the furtherance of your species, you are doing something that is inherently flawed. You have no legacy and your line/traits/biological make-up ends when you die. What you "feel" has zero bearing on the fact that your activity will not produce an heir. You can "feel" any way you want about your sexual tendencies, but it does not change the fact that the behavior does not result in natural reproduction.

For homosapiens, sexual activity between 2 people of the same *** does not result in a fulfilled process, thus, it is inherently flawed. Over-population is also flawed and I never said it wasn't. Essentially, homosexual individuals do not reproduce, thus, that is a natural flaw just as a person who is sterile also has a natural, biological flaw. Whether you embrace your flaw and take pride in it is irrelevant.

Seriously, you have to resort to calling me "close-minded" when you fail to see the logical error? I can articulate that homosexuality is wrong based on that premise, but it doesn't mean I have to force everyone to agree. You failed to see my point since you want to tell me that I'm wrong for saying that homosexuality could be viewed as wrong from a specific standpoint.

Go back and reread everything I said and leave it within its context. Just because I, or someone else, says something is wrong, doesn't mean you have to believe that it is wrong.

However, there are some things that, even if you don't feel they are wrong, will still have negative consequences associated with that behavior (I'm referencing the Global Rules. Whether you agree with them or not, they are the rules of this forum and if you violate them, there could be consequences)
 

Sarutobi Sasuke

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We are not obligated to decide what is immoral and what isnt. We choose to do so through free will. I do not have a yes or no answer for your question because there isnt anything to pass judgement on, 1.I am a human being just like you, therefore I am not entitled to decide as to weither you are right or wrong, 2. It would be your decision weither or not to help him. IMO, it would be right for you to help him, but it also wouldnt be wrong if you didnt.


Right and wrong, good or bad (morality) is relativistic. Morality is derived from an individual's/group's collective sense of empathy. IOW good or bad is dependent on the observer's opinion. Thus, right or wrong can not be determined without an individual's/group's frame of reference and does not exist outside of our collective perceptions of morality. I dont think good or right are natural attributes. I can't see good or bad existing from a natural perspective. Properties like straightness, flatness, roundness all exist naturally and is not subject to our opinions, unlike goodness for example.

So, the analogy I made about consciously letting someone suffer/die as a result of one's selfishness is generally considered "wrong" from an individual's/group's perspective. And it could also be considered "right" by another individual's/group's perspective. But...these concepts are inapplicable from a natural perspective.
 

MidKnight

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Morality and your personal ethos help you determine what is right or wrong. People get their moral beliefs from a variety of sources and it's very difficult to say one source is an authority over the other. It is up to the individual to select where they get their morals and then determine what is or is not ethical.

Pretty much, you have to ask "Right or wrong by whose standards?" One may be right in one set of morals but utterly wrong in a different set. Morality is essentially a philosophical topic with which there isn't one definitive answer that suits everyone.

Those 4 may not be wrong to you, but who are you to tell me or anyone else that those 4 are not wrong in our eyes? Some things you can explain or excuse, but in general, one might see all 4 of those as ultimately wrong or ultimately right, but you cannot tell someone who believes the opposite to be true that they are wrong.

Some things are inherently incorrect and thus it is safe to point that out (such as making a left turn when you must make a right turn to reach your destination; it's wrong because it takes you away from where you are going). There are valid arguments for all views of the 4 labels above, so it is difficult to say one way is inherently wrong. However, even from a scientific or social aspect, you can articulate with a high degree of probability why those 4 things are in fact incorrect behaviors.

Such as, homosexuality does not increase the population, thus, biologically, it is a flawed approach at life.

Selfishness, while it may get you the things you want, it will most likely make you suffer socially and possibly increase your likelihood to engage in a physical altercation which could jeopardize your safety.

A high *** drive can cause you to be extremely promiscuous and thus increase your chances of contracting and STD/STI, producing an unwanted pregnancy, negatively affect your social/love life, or possibly lead you to experiment in abnormal sexual practices which could be deemed illegal or have harmful side effects.

Obesity is a biological and social issue as not maintaining a healthy weight puts you at risk for further health problems and also is not viewed too highly by others. While some may have a disorder that causes obesity, the majority of persons do not and thus are engaged in a harmful activity. From a biological standpoint, you are at a greater risk of dying at an earlier age so this too can be seen as a flaw.


I do see your point and I can accept that you don't see anything wrong with those 4 things, but other people do see something wrong so it is equally hypocritical to tell those other people that they are the ones who are actually wrong. Again, it's all perspective, so you personally decide what you see as right or wrong, but you shouldn't force that view on others. You can state/express/explain your viewpoint freely, just don't force or demand others to agree.
o.o

How in the world, am I forcing someone to agree? Everyone who agreed with me on this topic did so on their own free will because they felt what I said was correct (that my OPINION was correct,that is) Anyways, you're really the first person to bring science into this Discussion (its not a debate on who is right or wrong). Did you notice something in your post? You put so many facts & statistics down, but you never explained why YOU think it is wrong personally. If I wanted scientific facts and statistics, I could of used google, bing, yahoo, etc instead of making this thead. I already know these things you listed. I want to know why YOU PERSONALLY think these things are wrong, I want YOUR opinion not statistics & facts from science.


What he's saying is pretty easy to understand.
First point:

Selfishness: He's saying that why do 'we' all dare to call someone else selfish and make them feel bad when we, without truly meaning to or knowing, act selfish about things. The example he gave about the food was a pretty good one.

Second:

A strong desire for lust (being a "pervert"): He's not saying a men raping a girl is alright or using the excuse "I'm just too damn horny all the time" he's not wrong about it being a human instinct though. Still he's just saying that we all, at one point (what he said)------- "EVERY human being (Excluding children) has experienced a desire for lust in some kind of way. Whether it was a thought, a reaction, or an actual act of sexuality"---- if a women can have 100 orgasms in 1 day, does that make her a perv even though it's a medical condition? there's people who become addicted to *** and need help, we shouldn't just call them pervs. Why is it that some illnesses we accept but not others.

third:

Homosexuality: People just label others and take away their rights b/c they don't fit the 'normal quota' and it's wrong. A homosexual doesn't decide over night to be gay. There's people who never accepted it so they date the opposite gender and later on they do accept it and may say "I'm gay" this makes ppl wonder and get upset but it happens. I know a homosexual guy who's gay but dates girls to hide it from others. It's wrong b/c he's lying to those girls and making other homosexuals seem like liars. Some people are crazy, I know..they think it's a 'new style' to be gay..those people cant be consider gay and honestly you can see if a person is gay or no by taking scans of their brains. If you keep up with scientific news, gay men's brains are structured like those of straight women and Lesbian's have their brains structure like a mans brain. Another caused that they found is that these changes happen as the baby is in the womb, hormonal changes. Religion fights it but really, how people act towards them..is purely inhuman, sick and repulsive. How is it right for us to condemn them and yet, we're all sinners..people choose what to argue about b/c the bible has way many more sins and yet people do them.

fourth:


Being Fat (overweight): Over the years, our society has changed and genes also DO change over time. Some ppl are naturally born to be skinny and some aren't. There's diseases that pretend one from gaining weight or losing. Yet we treat it as if it was something so gross and wrong, again. This is just another way how people like to judge others and say it's wrong because they 'don't fit' the 'normal quota'




What he gave were just opinions anyways and he says so, he's asking for the opinion of others now. Do they believe is wrong or right and why?..what's so complicated to understand about something so simple.

Sk8er, thank you so much for clearing that up for me U_U +rep. Some people In this thread are making something so simple Into something so complicated. I did'nt ask for questions that would start a debate, or scientific facts that I could google myself. I SIMPLY, asked for their personal opinions, thats all.
 

RAMENATOR

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How in the world, am I forcing someone to agree? Everyone who agreed with me on this topic did so on their own free will because they felt what I said was correct (that my OPINION was correct,that is) Anyways, you're really the first person to bring science into this Discussion (its not a debate on who is right or wrong). Did you notice something in your post? You put so many facts & statistics down, but you never explained why YOU think it is wrong personally. If I wanted scientific facts and statistics, I could of used google, bing, yahoo, etc instead of making this thead. I already know these things you listed. I want to know why YOU PERSONALLY think these things are wrong, I want YOUR opinion not statistics & facts from science.

Welcome to NB.

The title of your thread is "4 things that are labeled as wrong, but aren't." That is a definitive statement and I read it as, "Society has wrongly labeled those 4 things as bad." You then proceeded to state why society is wrong.

My whole counter-argument was geared towards showing how ironic it is that you are saying that society is wrong without recognizing that society is right in their own eyes and right by the sources of their morals.

Essentially, I interpreted it as "society is wrong and I'm right, but go ahead and tell me what you think." Again, welcome to NB and if I elected to leave my personal opinion on the subject matter out of the discussion, it's because I don't feel like reading peoples' arguments against my opinion i.e. I don't want to give an opinion.
 
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