[Discussion] 18 Year old Sammy Yatim Shot 9 Times by Police ADULTS/MATURE BASE MEMBERS ONLY PLEASE

Aim64C

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I'm sure the police could have detained him easily without killing him, cases like these happen so frequently and many get unheard of.
Easier said than done.

I'll pick up a knife. Now I want you to detain me without killing me, even though I'm going to be making lethal jabs at you while you're doing it.

Try it with your brothers and sisters at home. Give one of them a cookie, and tell the others that if they can get it away from him/her without killing her, they can have ten more. Tell the kid with the cookie that if he/she loses the cookie, there will be no more cookies for him/her.

Various alterations can be made (including flat-out giving one of them a knife) - and even without lethal augments being present, someone is likely to go to the hospital over the ensuing struggle.

WTF couldn't they just use rubber bullets, smoke gas, or other non lethals???? Did he have any hostages????
Likely weren't available. They are expensive for what they do, and most departments cannot afford them outside of specialized riot teams.

Even then, short of a taser, people who you suspect of being mentally ill or on drugs tend to respond unpredictably to a lot of less-than-lethal measures. You shoot him with bean-bags and he flips a lid and becomes a locomotive that ignores pain and will take several rounds (from real weapons) to bring to a stop.

I've seen people get sprayed with pepper spray and proceed to beat the shit out of the person spraying them with minimal effect. It doesn't always work as advertised.
 

Tingun

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he didn't have any hostages though! And not possible considering he was on the bus in public. However I understand your suspicion. You're very analytical and I respect that.
After seeing the video it's more clear now, but still a very difficult situation for the police.
 

NoMoreLove

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Easier said than done.

I'll pick up a knife. Now I want you to detain me without killing me, even though I'm going to be making lethal jabs at you while you're doing it.

Try it with your brothers and sisters at home. Give one of them a cookie, and tell the others that if they can get it away from him/her without killing her, they can have ten more. Tell the kid with the cookie that if he/she loses the cookie, there will be no more cookies for him/her.

Various alterations can be made (including flat-out giving one of them a knife) - and even without lethal augments being present, someone is likely to go to the hospital over the ensuing struggle.



Likely weren't available. They are expensive for what they do, and most departments cannot afford them outside of specialized riot teams.

Even then, short of a taser, people who you suspect of being mentally ill or on drugs tend to respond unpredictably to a lot of less-than-lethal measures. You shoot him with bean-bags and he flips a lid and becomes a locomotive that ignores pain and will take several rounds (from real weapons) to bring to a stop.

I've seen people get sprayed with pepper spray and proceed to beat the shit out of the person spraying them with minimal effect. It doesn't always work as advertised.
Extremely good points. I completely understand where you're coming from. However do you not think 10+ Grown men with bulletproof vests on who are supposed to be trained to handle these situations could take down a 18 year old scrawny kid?

If the police hadn't used lethal force they would have been praised as heros for handling it the way they did.

EDIT: Taser was requested,

For example ( True story ) I was at a party where some idiot called 911 and said there was someone with a knife. Cops brought a ton of guns with rubber bullets. like TONS. Toronto is the capital of Ontario with a huge population. Rubber bullets were certainly an option along with the taser.
 

COLOSSAL TITAN

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I read a bit into the article and decided to expand my view on it, this relates to the rebellion about George Zimmerman.

I understand that 9 shots was too much, the cop was trigger happy and should be punished for it.

But then again everywhere where I read about these cases I read this:

* He's a good kid
* He didn't deserve to die
* Justice for <name>

- You have to understand, these people aren't good kids or innocent, they had problems with themselves and endangered others by doing so, if sammy was innocent he wouldn't have ordered the whole bus to leave, he would've dropped the knife and he would've coorperated, he isn't a good kid.

Sammy didn't listen so his intentions were unpredictable, the police didn't know with what type of character they were dealing, when someone doesn't listen to your order 7 times you should be worried. This 'kid' could've been a serious threat, and because he wasn't he is marked as a good kid and innocent. We live in a dumb society but we shouldn't praise bad people.
 

NoMoreLove

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I read a bit into the article and decided to expand my view on it, this relates to the rebellion about George Zimmerman.

I understand that 9 shots was too much, the cop was trigger happy and should be punished for it.

But then again everywhere where I read about these cases I read this:

* He's a good kid
* He didn't deserve to die
* Justice for <name>

- You have to understand, these people aren't good kids or innocent, they had problems with themselves and endangered others by doing so, if sammy was innocent he wouldn't have ordered the whole bus to leave, he would've dropped the knife and he would've coorperated, he isn't a good kid.

Sammy didn't listen so his intentions were unpredictable, the police didn't know with what type of character they were dealing, when someone doesn't listen to your order 7 times you should be worried. This 'kid' could've been a serious threat, and because he wasn't he is marked as a good kid and innocent. We live in a dumb society but we shouldn't praise bad people.
very much respect your standpoint and now I can paint a better picture. I still believe it could have been handled differently don't you? The taser was available to the officer yet he shot with his gun. Now the cop is suspended with PAY. WTH?
 

COLOSSAL TITAN

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very much respect your standpoint and now I can paint a better picture. I still believe it could have been handled differently don't you? The taser was available to the officer yet he shot with his gun. Now the cop is suspended with PAY. WTH?
It could indeed have been handled differently, the cops acted like they didn't have any training, The cop should be treated like a murderer for being so trigger happy, not suspended with pay!
 
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Anorien16

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Zimmerman killed a muscular kid carrying a Skittles while being high on something and was found not guilty ...... you think this case wld be treated differently?

Also U guys really underestimate a person with a knife and possible other weapons..... even someone as skinny as me can not be stopped unless totally incapacitated.
 

ziggyZ

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. In fact, if I had the time, I would expand further on backing your contention; however. I do not.


But! One would think, after that idiot shot the poor dog, the pigs wouldn't be so "trigger happy" now, huh?
 

Anorien16

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I agree with you wholeheartedly. In fact, if I had the time, I would expand further on backing your contention; however. I do not.


But! One would think, after that idiot shot the poor dog, the pigs wouldn't be so "trigger happy" now, huh?
One would also think, after so many instances of criminals being killed or imprisoned, those pigs wont be so "crime happy" now, huh?
 

GOD2U

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Wtf why would they taser him after they shot him. They should have calmly talked to him first then if he wouldn't comply taste him and restrain. Fools.
 

7PointOh

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Almost everyone here talks as if they know better on how to handle a situation like this without no knowledge of what being bound to a continuum of force means. Yes it could've been handled differently. But please stop making suggestions of what they should have done like firing warning shots or shoot them in on a limb or something like that if you really don't have any working knowledge of what basic standard operating procedures of a security force has.

The best thing to do is wait it out. No one was in danger so set up a perimeter and wait. As a police officer (which I am not), you don't know what's on the bus that could be hidden. There wasn't any need to rush it. Wait and assess. The only problem with this tactic is time. It takes time away from other crimes that can be happening while this standoff is in the works. But that's fine because you can call SWAT or other special teams who are better trained in cases like this. From what I saw there was never any need to make entry onto the bus as a patrol men. Keep your guns "at the ready" just to be on the safe side.
 

Hexuze

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Well he was given enough warnings to drop the knife plus he may of had intentions of harming others with the knife. Plus we don't know the full context of what happened prior to scene where the cops came, besides he ordered people to leave the bus. The cop did went a bit overboard to shoot him that many times, one shot in the leg would of done it but killing him was highly unnecessary. This case can go both ways but the cop DID get suspended from what I heard so that is good. Now that I think of it police brutality should be monitored and be looked into, it's getting outrageous.
 

Aim64C

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Extremely good points. I completely understand where you're coming from. However do you not think 10+ Grown men with bulletproof vests on who are supposed to be trained to handle these situations could take down a 18 year old scrawny kid?
If it were me on that bus, and I was resolved to causing problems - at least two of those men would have been hospitalized, likely more, and quite possibly more than one fatality.

The bus was a natural choke-point. Even if they'd come from all directions - the most I'd have to deal with at any one time is two. Ballistic vests are always a compromise between various types of protection. Kevlar weave does nothing to stop a blade that polyester clothing doesn't. Ceramic plates are where you get equal effectiveness at stopping blades and ballistics - but you start talking about 30-60lb vests at that point in time. Some of the better vests weave in metal fibers or disks behind Type II and Type IIIA plates to try and limit the effectiveness of blades while preserving protection against handguns - but your sides, underarms, and neck are still very accessible to piercing.

If I was given the order to try and take him alive - I'd choose jail time and shoot him, because it doesn't come with an unreasonably high likelihood of death or life-altering injuries.

If the police hadn't used lethal force they would have been praised as heros for handling it the way they did.
No, they wouldn't.

And you know it. There -might- have been a small little article about it in the mundane news section.

It's no different than how many times we were able to talk people down from instances where we could have shot them; or when our Embark teams could have destroyed some fool on a motorboat (and, according to the textbook, should have... but if they followed that - they would have sank a small vessel every hour, it was just a busy area).

What happens when one of our embark teams does fire on a boat that took every sequence of actions to make your anus pucker? It becomes front-page international news and the ship is not allowed back into that nation's harbors. Conspiracy theorists go wild, etc etc.

You never heard about how we were bringing -billions- of dollars of annual income to that region; how people of that nation interacted with us on a daily basis and we got along just fine or turned a potentially nasty situation around without Al Jazeera getting involved.

It's a thankless job. You never get praised for being the good guy. You never get portrayed as being the good guy. You only get attention when something happens that can be construed as controversial or used for some political or social agenda by reporters and/or politicians.

EDIT: Taser was requested,

For example ( True story ) I was at a party where some idiot called 911 and said there was someone with a knife. Cops brought a ton of guns with rubber bullets. like TONS. Toronto is the capital of Ontario with a huge population. Rubber bullets were certainly an option along with the taser.
Those aren't on-hand by responding officers. Those are special dispatch situations.

In your case, they were called to a party. The likelihood of a bunch of drunks getting rowdy is fairly high, and you can't very well gun the whole mess down.

Responding to an armed individual is going to pull officers off of the beat rather than be a cause to dispatch specialized teams.
 
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