Location: Blue Samurai Bridge. Distance: 15m. State of Mind: Perfect Resolve/ In Character. Knowledge: Manga. Restrictions: None.
Judges: Omnipotent, Solo, GwemBaba, Tragic Nous.
Debaters have one-twodays to argue their points: ends the latest April 10, 11:00 am.[Eastern].
Voting:
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All right. I'm pretty much ready now. And, I'm really sorry for not staying on long enough yesterday; I sort of got swamped with work. But, I'm free now. Sasori, you can start your argument first, if you'd like.
As we know, Jiraiya failed to achieve the Perfect Sage mode, something his successor Naruto, managed to do. I'm aware Naruto lacks the two toad sages, however, achieving his perfect state gives him many advantages over Jiraiya. I was never good at this introductory stuff, so lets get straight into it, shall we?
Taijutsu
Jiraiya is under a definite disadvantage here. While Jiraiya achieved the imperfect Sage mode, during his fight with Pain he lacked some traits Perfect SM Naruto had displayed: one of them, being Frog Kata. On more than one occasion, Jiraiya had encountered Pain in hand-to-hand combat, but he never demonstrated Frog Kata. Of course, linked vision makes physical Taijutsu pretty much useless, which is why Naruto surprised Preta when he knocked him out for a little while. Whereas, Jiraiya flat out stated Taijutsu is useless. This leads me to believe, Jiraiya is heavily outmatched in Taijutsu.
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But how pointless is it?
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[/JUTSU]
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Since Jiraiya wasn't able to use this on Pain, it's quite Jiraiya's unable to use it. Naruto can utilize his new found Taijutsu to overcome Jiriaya in a 1v1. Jiraiya, knowing of Frog Kata's dangers will be forced to retreat, and NOT engage Naruto in a Taijutsu battle. Now, you may claim Pa can use Frog Kata, which he can, but Jiraiya's the target here. Also, Pa isn't able to utilize Frog Kata in this situation, as he needs to be fused with Jiraiya for him to stay in SM.
With that said, Jiraiya is far outclassed in Taijutsu, he stands no chance in it. The limited blows he landed on Pain, he had to go through procedures to blind the others Pains' vision, he can't do this to Naruto. Just a little extra, when Naruto knocked out Preta Path, that was at the start of the fight. And how long was he out for? Almost 3 chapters.
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Countering Gamaken.
Since Gamahiro has no feats, I can't really tell you what he can do, but I can tell you he'd finish off Gamaken by the end of this.
Now, Sage mode. Besides Sensing, enhanced attacks (of all sorts), what else does it provide? That's right, immense strength. Naruto has numerous strength feats. One, being he (his clones) were able to toss a rhino undoubtedly many tones heavier than he is into the air, showing absolutely no signs of struggle.
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Another strength feat Naruto was able to do, is effortlessly pick up Kurama by its tails, and swing it about like a ragdoll. Now, I'm aware this debate refers to Naruto in his fight against Pain, but saying he wouldn't be able to do this when in his state against Pain, is just plain ridiculous. Naruto mastered SM from the moment he learnt it, so he could definitely perform this at his previous state against Pain.
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So what I'm proposing is, Naruto can make some SM clones, while the real Naruto deals with Jiraiya. Gamaken's weapons would either be caught by SM Naruto, and disarmed, or completely dodge due to the enhanced reflexes. Once Naruto's clones are able to get a hold of Gamaken, they can set him up for the big kill. Throwing him into the air, while he wait helplessly, and Gamahiro goes for the kill with his duel swords.
That's the many wonders about Naruto, he's easily able to produce as many clones as he wants.
Ninjutsu.
I don't believe Naruto is far worse than Jiraiya when it comes to Ninjutsu. Now, while Jiraiya has more jutsu at his disposal, I strongly believe Naruto's jutsu are way more destructive. Example, Rasenshuriken.
Naruto almost, no, he always begins by using his clones. You see, Jiraiya is no Pain, he just wouldn't be able to dispatch of them all. When achieving Sage mode, Naruto mastered Sage art: Ultra-big ball Rasengan. While Jiraiya is able to use this too, Naruto is able to take this to a whole new level. Again, Naruto's exceptional chakra reserves is what's going to save him here. What's Naruto able to do when he summons 50+ SM clones?
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Again, I'm aware this isn't Pain arc Naruto, but saying he can't replicate this feat is ridiculous. The only thing that's changed between then and now, is Naruto can enter SM by himself. His exceptionally large chakra allows him to do this. That said, I don't know how Jiraiya's going to react to this, this attack made the Kyuubi look small, but when squaring up with a man, I'd say it's game over. Jiraiya gets outnumbered, overpowered and is forced to succumb to the many Rasengan barrages. If connects, he has absolutely zero chance of survival.
Another one of Naruto's strategies, is clone feinting and finishing one off with the Rasenshuriken. A straight up Rasenshuriken attack would be pointless, as Ma and Pa have witnessed the attack, and understand its mechanics. However, if Naruto can do a replica of this;
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Throw a smoke bomb. Once Naruto has done this, he won't know what to expect, and he can throw a fake Rasenshuriken.
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Here, Naruto, instead of attacking Jiraiya, can rid of Ma and Pa by surprising them with kunai/shuriken. They won't be expecting it, so they won't have the time to react. And then, once Jiraiya is separated from his companions, the real Rasenshuriken will come. Deva, on more than one occasion has shown that he's too slow to dodge it. Since Jiraiya is an imperfect Sage, and has never been shown to have superb reflexes, I don't see how they can counter this (I'm not going to show a scan of Deva not being able to dodge it, but will if asked)
Shima is able to use a particular jutsu which blinds the opponent as well, however, Naruto in his perfect Sage state is able to sense chakra, and because of this, was able to locate the real Nagato. Since Naruto's able to sense chakra, a surprise attack like that just wouldn't work.
Countering Genjutsu
The hardest part, for me. What is the Frog illusion song? It technically traps the opponent in a square, guarded by 4 toads, which completely traps the enemy. In reality though, they're just standing still, and the caster of this is able to take advantage of this. Since in reality they're immobile, all it takes is a simple stab wound, as seen when Jiraiya performed this against Pain. However, this technique takes some prep time, something Naruto can exploit. Using his chakra sensing abilities, he can locate, and disrupt the jutsu. Above, I've already explained Naruto's superiority in Taijutsu, so if Jiraiya is located, he'll have to 1v1 him and potentially, his clones. Also, I'm aware Jiraiya is able to use Shadow clones, however, he has only been shown to use 1 clone. This jutsu exhausts a lot of chakra, which is why only someone like Naruto is able to take advantage of it, he'd simply get outnumbered.
My second counter concerning the Genjutsu is if Naruto actually gets trapped in it. As we already know, clones are not affected by Genjutsu, so Naruto can take advantage of this. He can prepare clones before hand, or he may already have some with him, as Naruto always fights with clones. If the real Naruto is in the Genjutsu, Jiraiya's natural instinct would be to go for the kill, with his sword. However, Naruto's clones can come to his aid, and protect the real one.
Physical weapons are futile against Naruto(clones) in SM, as seen here.
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That's it for now, I'll await your rebuttal. Sorry for taking so long as well.
Yes, you are thoroughly and factually correct in most of your several assertions; Jiraiya, although to my chagrin, is heavily superseded by (Sage Mode) Naruto, in regards to plain taijutsu. And surely, 'Rasenshuriken' is a formidable jutsu, as it is derived from 'Rasengan,' an already powerful technique. However, despite Jiraiya's apparent reversal in progress, he possesses an assortment of jutsu, especially two nature transformations, which can be exploited to safely ensure his victory.
Counter- Argument
To reiterate your argument, you have effectively asserted that, despite Jiraiya's attainment of the, although incomplete, sage mode, (Sage Mode) Naruto far exceeds Jiraiya, in terms of plain taijutsu, considering that Naruto's full mastery and grasp over sage mode grants him an enchance performance in general combat, as well as an extension of abilities, due to the honored 'Sage mode'; and one of them, as you have stated is: 'Frog Kata.'
Now, to more pressing matters. Truth be told, there are many ways to set the battle at balance, or equilibrium, despite Naruto's immense strength and commendable taijutsu. To counter his taijutsu, Jiraiya can freely revert to a defensive, as well as offensive stance, through the use of 'Needle Jizo.'
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The user surrounds himself with hair- like needles that can be used to defend the user from projectiles, weaponry, as well as taijutsu. Yes, this is not the most dazzling example. However, in the following manga chapter, Jiraiya was partially inebriated, due to being drugged by Tsunade. That aside, 'Needle Jizo' is also an offensive technique, in a sense that, if the assailant were to make direct contact, he would be hurt instead, and thus rendering his taijutsu counterproductive. In conjunction to this technique, and if Jiraiya is in incomplete sage mode, he is able to use 'Sage Art: Hair Needle Senbon,' hence lauching hardened, hair like projectiles to the opposition and deepening his assail further.
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Note: This is one of the fastest techniques Jiraiya possesses in his arsenal of jutsu, and it also covers a wide range scope of attack. With this in mind, it is a jutsu not easily evaded.
In response to Gamahiro, Jiraiya has many options, in order to prevent Gamahiro's advances. One of them being the 'Wild Lion's Mane' technique.
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As demonstrated previously, this technique is able to restrict the movements of large beings, such as the summon show above. This is also effective regarding Gamahiro. If he is caught in the technique, he is unable to move, thus making him vulnerable for an attack.
In regards to Naruto's rasenshuriken and many other renditions of the rasengan, Jiraiya is able to nullify it's immense power by 'Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind.'
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This technique can be used as a trap, as well as a defense. As a trap, the opponent is entangled by the adhesive effects of the toad's mouth, thus restricting their movements and making them vulnerable for a strike. As a defense, it is used to protect the user from jutsu, such as the rasengan or rasenshuriken for example.
In response to Naruto's shadow clones and Gamahiro once more, Jiraiya is able to restrict their movements as well, through the use of the 'Swamp of the Underworld' technique.
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The technique has the ability to ensnare its target in a wallow of mud, and it is more than able to trap and keep in place such a large being as this. If it is used to trap Naruto's shadow clones, as well as Naruto, movement is heavily restricted, thus making them susceptible to attacks.
And lastly: genjutsu. As you have already said, Ma and Pa are used by Jiraiya to compensate for his lack of skill in genjutsu. And as you have also said, it take preparation. Well, to garner some well needed time, the 'Swamp of the Underworld' technique is necessary, to stop enemy advances and stall time for the genjutsu. Once the genjutsu is ready, the battle is concluded.
Concerning your beginning part, you stated Needle Jizo would be enough to keep Naruto at bay, however, you forget that Naruto doesn't need to actually land a physical strike for the Taijutsu to be affective. If Jiraiya were to completely defend against Frog Kata, he'd have to encase his WHOLE body with his Needle Jizo. If Jiraiya were to defend himself as he did in the scan you've provided, Jiraiya will still get caught due to the natural energy. In this scan you've posted Jiriaya's left room in his neck and face area, which can definitely be exposed by Naruto's natural energy strikes.
Why it's a bad idea...
When Jiraiya encases his body in Needle Jizo, he's unable to move, this can definitely lead to Naruto's prevail. You see, Jiraiya's respective technique only protects him against physical attacks, and in turn, injures the enemy. But, you forget, Naruto doesn't HAVE TO use Taijutsu to bypass this. He can use his Rasenshuriken, to completely obliterate Jiraiya. While facing Pain, Naruto had nearly caught them with his Rasenshuriken on multiple occasions, the technique is quite simply too fast. As Jiraiya lacks the natural SM enhancements, things are about to get a whole lot harder.
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Look here. This particular Pain had only survived the RS due to the Kuchiyose, otherwise it's detonating area would of definitely caught it.
So, where am I going with this? Like I said earlier, Jiraiya has to remain stationary while performing the Needle Jizo. If he does so, he's going to get killed with Rasenshuriken. Not only does Jiraiya's technique restrict his movements, but the aftermath of the RS affects the landscape around him. So even if Jiraiya is able to deactivate the jutsu, and attempt to flee, the explosion the RS creates will surely catch him. Needle Jizo is simply a bad idea for Jiraiya.
Needle senbon
You are correct this technique covers a wide range, and it is indeed a very fast attack. However, you forget Naruto's perfect sage state grants him enhanced reflexes, and sensing. Might I remind you just how effective Naruto's reflexes are.
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Naruto's enhanced reflexes allowed him to dodge his attack at point blank range. While, no normal shinobi could dodge Jiraiya's hair senbon so easily, Naruto is a different matter. One of the many bonuses of becoming a perfect sage. And just a note, I'm aware I'm debating for Naruto in the Pain arc, however Naruto perfected SM from the very beginning. He could definitely replicate this feat at the time.
Wild Lion's Mane Technique
This truly is an appropriate counter for such a large creature like Gamahiro, however, you're forgetting Naruto is there too. Do you honestly believe Jiraiya can execute that technique, while Naruto just stand there and watch him do so? I wouldn't count on it. All Jiraiya is doing here is leaving himself open for an attack, which, Naruto has many options for. It could be a Rasengan, Twin Rasengan, Ultra-big ball Rasengan, you take your pick. But, Jiriaya's signing his death contract if he's just going to forget about Naruto, and go straight for Naruto's summon.
Toad Mouth Bind
Sadly, you're mistaken here bud. To use this technique, Jiraiya must be in an enclosed place, just like the apartment he used it on. This, however, is useless as our respective combatants are fighting outside, on a bridge. Also, I fail to see how this protects Jiraiya from the Rasenshuriken. You see, as the scan you have provided clearly shows, Jiraiya is IN the bind itself, so he's only making himself an even bigger sitting duck.
Swamp Of The Underworld
Maybe this could trap Naruto's clones, IF they were all standing on the part of the bridge. Naruto has been shown to make a ridiculous amount of clones, this surely reaches far beyond the limitations of SOTU's reaching abilities. It simply wouldn't happen. Jiraiya cannot sink all of them, and he most certainly cannot keep it up. Lets say "if" he caught the real Naruto inside of it. Naruto can simply make two clones beside him, and make the most of his immense strength. One SM clone was able to throw a Giant Rhino many tonnes heavier than himself into the air, I see no reason for Naruto not being able to do this. Using his strength, throw himself out of the swamp, and then performing something like this;
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"Rescuing" Gamahiro
The scan you provided of Jiraiya "sinking" the snake ultimately failed, but he's not to blame, as he was drugged. But, you're forgetting one thing. Gamahiro is WAY too tall. You see, snakes are long, but in turn, they're short. Gamahiro, however, is extremely huge. Hell, I don't know about you, but Gamahiro seems to be the biggest one there.
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So as I said, Gamahiro is way too large for Jiraiya to sink. And even if he gets the chance to, you're forgetting about Naruto. You think Naruto will stand there and wait for his summon to be sunk? No way, like I stated earlier, Jiraiya is open for an attack. By performing this technique, he's signing his death contract. Naruto is freely able to do as he pleases, and finish Jiraiya off. Jiraiya stands no chance here.
Genjutsu
As I've said earlier, SOTU is meant to sink the enemy, sinking him completely. For arguments sake, lets say he was able to trap Naruto. I've already provided a counter for that technique above, just check that out.
