【NB Debate Tourney: SasoriOfTheRedSaand vs DrProof】
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Optimistic
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SasoriOfTheRedSaand
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Not my fault. He did say he's going to post his intro, I'm waiting on him. If I have to start, so be it. But I'll do so tonight, I've gotta be somewhere.
pateuvasiliu
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Sacrosanct
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Haven't judged for almost 2 months now. I see people are sleeping on the Nidaime Mizukage...
pateuvasiliu
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Two Demons; The Destruction Begins
*This is my Introductory Argument
*The highlighted red/underlined words are manga scans
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The Immortal Demon known as Kakuzu would apply his introductory attack against Gaara, The 5th Kazekage. Gaara is known as an aerial fighter (mid-long range fighter) which doesn't hinder Kakuzu at a disadvantage seeing as
The main reason in which Kakuzu is the ultimate counter against Gaara's "ultimate defense" along with his techniques in general is due to his ability to not only level the landscape with his large-scale jutsu, but as seen in Part 1 Gaara vs Sasuke, Gaara's weakness was exposed:
With Kakuzu countering Gaara's defense with Raiton: Gian, and countering Gaara's assaults with Futon: Atsugai, Gaara would be completely defenseless with Sasori being dealt with by The Nidiame Mizukage. This would leave Gaara open to a repeated
Kakuzu's large-scale Ninjutsu would also aid The 2nd Mizukage's battle against Sasori as well covering his back at every step when unleashing Jōki Bōi, and ultimately being weakened having to hide while Jōki Bōi is repeating itself.
The End Result..
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making him the best possible opponent for both Sasori, and Gaara as he is one of the most versatile characters. The main reason in which Kakuzu is the ultimate counter against Gaara's "ultimate defense" along with his techniques in general is due to his ability to not only level the landscape with his large-scale jutsu, but as seen in Part 1 Gaara vs Sasuke, Gaara's weakness was exposed:
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. Correct Raiton is in fact superior to Gaara's sand-based techniques; this would effectively reduce Gaara's arsenal to assault-based techniques in which would be a futile effort seeing as Kakuzu would have no problem changing the momentum of the Sand-based assault due to
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. To furthermore support my accusation Gaara's sand isn't all that dense, seeing as his sand couldn't solely subdue The 2nd Mizukage's Jouki Boy, as
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. Futon: Atsugai is a pressurized wind-based jutsu so obviously it would carry immense density to not only counter the momentum of Gaara's sand-based attacks, but completely deconstruct the repeated assault(s).With Kakuzu countering Gaara's defense with Raiton: Gian, and countering Gaara's assaults with Futon: Atsugai, Gaara would be completely defenseless with Sasori being dealt with by The Nidiame Mizukage. This would leave Gaara open to a repeated
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. Ultimately Gaara's inefficiency to counter Kakuzu's nature affinities will be his downfall, and will lead to having his
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. Kakuzu's large-scale Ninjutsu would also aid The 2nd Mizukage's battle against Sasori as well covering his back at every step when unleashing Jōki Bōi, and ultimately being weakened having to hide while Jōki Bōi is repeating itself.
The End Result..
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The 2nd Mizukage, also known as TrollKage is a demon on the battlefield, but subtly (hence his title's meaning: Second Water Shadow). The 2nd Mizukage is
The 2nd Mizukage relies on Genjutsu (as he is a Yin-release user) thus he serves Kakuzu as the perfect defense support, along with having a large-scale ninjutsu in which can level the situation similar to Kakuzu, but at a rate of infinity. The 2nd Mizukage would (as displayed canonically) deploy
With The 2nd Mizukage hindering Sasori's attacks useless the infinite terror would be unleashed;
Kakuzu would also serve as a great conductor to The 2nd Mizukage's Jōki Bōi seeing as Raiton, and Katon would heat up Jōki Bōi's temperature, and cause him to explode instantly on contact. This would be beneficial to attack on surprise or to cause a collaboration assault between Kakuzu, and The 2nd Mizukage in order to defeat either opponents.
Once Sasori is outclassed, and countered every step of the way The 2nd Mizukage would claim his victory.
The End Result..
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eg; Taijutsu, Ninjutsu (in which isn't a large-scale raiton/katon); Raiton will electrocute The 2nd Mizukage causing him to attain a paralysis-like state, while Katon would cause him to ignite/evaporate due to his Oil/Water composition. However, due to neither Sasori nor Gaara possessing attacks such as the above I can surely state that The 2nd Mizukage cannot be defeated by either candidate. This is perfect against Sasori as Hiruko, The 3rd Kazekage, and Sasori's body (Scorpion) all provide deadly assault tactics coated with poison something The 2nd Mizukage would be impervious to due to Suika no Jutsu (Also due to the user being liquid their organs, and respiratory system becomes water as well making The 2nd Mizukage immune to Sasori's poison through breathing as well). The 2nd Mizukage relies on Genjutsu (as he is a Yin-release user) thus he serves Kakuzu as the perfect defense support, along with having a large-scale ninjutsu in which can level the situation similar to Kakuzu, but at a rate of infinity. The 2nd Mizukage would (as displayed canonically) deploy
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to use the technique: Shinkirō no Genjutsu. This Genjutsu doesn't affect the target's mind or body, it simply deludes them into seeing a mirage (which doesn't affect the mind directly). Yes, Gaara was able to counter this technique however, due to the fact that Kakuzu would counter all sand-based assaults with Futon: Atsugai, along with the fact that Gaara would be to busy to multi-task dealing with 4 enemies at a time (Kakuzu, and his 3 hearts) however, this doesn't conclude that Sasori would be able to do the same as canonically it hasn't been shown. This would leave Sasori not only clueless, but at The 2nd Mizukage unexpected mercy.With The 2nd Mizukage hindering Sasori's attacks useless the infinite terror would be unleashed;
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. The Mugen Bakuha Ninjutsu (Infinite Explosion Ninjutsu) would play a huge role in not only aiding The 2nd Mizukage in his battle, but Kakuzu's as well (similar to how Kakuzu's large-scale Ninjutsu would aid himself, and The 2nd Mizukage). Due to this
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would cause not only Sasori, but Gaara as well to be welcomed unexpected visits from Jōki Bōi. What actually aids The 2nd Mizukage's Jōki Bōi in this match-up is that Iron is actually a great heat conductor, and a poor insulator. This concludes that if Sasori tried to captivate Jōki Bōi such as Gaara tried he would not only fail, but cause a faster mass explosion due to his Satetsu being a good heat conductor; Sasori while using Satetsu (his main attack, and defense) would be beneficial to the enemy causing himself to be a liability in this match-up while conducting Satetsu (Iron Sand). To furthermore conclude why Satetsu would have no effect on The 2nd Mizukage is because Iron isn't as dense as Gold (as I've already established) so possibly due to the unknown density, and the sure fact that Iron is in fact a heat conductor the ultimatum would be conclusive;
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Kakuzu would also serve as a great conductor to The 2nd Mizukage's Jōki Bōi seeing as Raiton, and Katon would heat up Jōki Bōi's temperature, and cause him to explode instantly on contact. This would be beneficial to attack on surprise or to cause a collaboration assault between Kakuzu, and The 2nd Mizukage in order to defeat either opponents.
Once Sasori is outclassed, and countered every step of the way The 2nd Mizukage would claim his victory.
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The End Result..
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*This is my Introductory Argument
*The highlighted red/underlined words are manga scans
Prince Charles
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SasoriOfTheRedSaand
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Rebuttal
Kakuzu
To begin with, I would like to end this fallacious talk of Kakuzu's Gian completely nullifying Gaara's sand. Now, I'm seeing you base your claims off of Gaara's previous encounter with the young Uchiha, Sasuke. But lets dig deeper into that, shall we? Alright, so during their little skirmish, Sasuke
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, and because of this, the assumption has been made that getting through to Gaara would be a cakewalk. However, things have changed since their Chunin exam bout. What we saw in the Chunin exams, was Gaara's auto defense being compressed into a sphere and being bypassed, nothing more. Right, so during Gaara's battle with Kimimaro, he unveiled a secret about his power over sand. We learned that Gaara is able to extract sand from underground and
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in the process. Now I am astounded as to how one thinks
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is beyond me. Lets look at what Gaara's sand has gone through, and what it can do.- It withstood Kimimaro's ultimate spear, who's bones were said to be as hard as steel [
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- Defend Mei from being attacked by a Susano'o clone, while Gaara himself blocks 5 Susano'o sword assaults [
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- Protected the 4th division from Jouki's explosion [
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- It withstood Enton's heat pressure [
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]. It's way too thick and dense to be penetrated by Gian. Not only that, but Gaara is able to formulate counterattacks while defending at the same time [
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]. If by any means it does get penetrated, Gaara can simply borrow some of Sasori's Satetsu, and use it in conjunction with his own sand. When both sands are combined, Gian stands absolutely zero chance of penetrating Gaara's sand, as it would be way too dense and strong.With Gian unable to penetrate Gaara's ultimate defense, and if necessary, Iron sand, it would simply be overwhelmed by Gaara's ability to manipulate sand in a location which favours Gaara. Being able to take control over sand from a widened scope such as this [
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], Gaara can dispatch of it with a sand coffin, or sand bullets which fire in quick succession.Concerning Kakuzu's wind based assault, sure it should blow back Gaara's sand. But, can it do so once Gaara incorporates his sand with Sasori's Iron sand? I have reason to believe not. Gaara has already shown the ability to use his sand in conjunction with his fathers [
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], so he can inevitably do the same with Sasori's Satetsu. With this combination, Gaara can, without a doubt, withstand Kakuzu's wind based assault. You must know that Gaara doesn't need to attack Kakuzu head on, for him to see. He can extract sand from beneath the earth, directly under the Fuuton mask, and then he can successfully capture the mask, in a somewhat similar fashion to this [
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]. Of course, he's going to need to elevate the sand to a higher point in order to capture it, but with his control over sand, it's entirely plausible. Besides, the mask has never been shown to stray that far off the ground. Once captured, the mask is dispatched with a sand coffin [
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].His Fire mask would do no good. Refer to my earlier scan, where I presented Gaara's sand withstanding the heat of Enton, which is undoubtedly hotter than Kakuzu's Katon. If he were to use it in conjunction with his Fuuton, Gaara can easily use Kūsa Bōheki (Air Sand Protective Wall) to negate the effects of Kakuzu's assault [
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]. Again, he can conjure up the amount of sand necessary by extracting it from the earth. If anything, Gaara could perform this technique, but on a smaller scale. Nidaime Mizukage
Gaara’s sand sensing. This method is a major beneficiary when up against Nidaime’s Mirage Genjutsu. Of course, normal sensing methods are more or less futile when the Mirage is in fruition, but luckily for my team, the Sand Sensing relies on physical means to locate the opponent, meaning of course, Gaara can locate the Mizukage in the mist. In fact, the apparent undetectable Muu “the null man” fell pray to sand sensing [
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]. Gaara also flushed out the Mizukage in canon, meaning of course there is no reason why he cannot repeat this feat here [
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]. With this, they can detect the Mizukage. You claim Gaara would be too busy dealing with Kakuzu, however, this is simply not true. Gaara is efficient enough in Sand clones to have them carry out the task of locating the Mizukage, as clones are able to perform to the same level as the original. Not only this, but Gaara and Sasori can simply switch places, long enough for Gaara to locate the sand, and have Sasori fend off Kakuzu in the meantime. It's entirely possible.Eliminating the Clam shouldn’t be too much of an issue here. Gaara had already detected the clam and the Mizukage in canon, as I have shown in my previous scan, meaning the only thing that remains is the destruction of the clam itself. Bare in mind, Onoki’s super aggravated rock fist managed to destroy it [
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]. How can the Suna duo destroy it? Quite easily, actually. This is where Sasori makes use of his geometrical manipulation of the Iron sand. Sasori can produce large, extremely heavy and destructive products of Satetsu, which will be perfect for destroying the clam. Note it’s large size [
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] and destructive capabilities [
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] [
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]. The clam simply stands no chance.Jouki Boy
Actually capturing it is a different story. In the manga, Jouki was neutralized with Yondaime’s Gold dust. The denseness and weight of the product is what put a halt to Jouki’s explosion. I believe a similar feat could be accomplished with Satetsu, allow me to explain why. Alright, here’s where the science comes in. Okay, so Gold as Gaara said, is 20 times heavier than water [
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] , whereas Iron is 7.9 x heavier than water. Key point is, both are heavier than water, which is the necessary thing in stopping Jouki boy in its tracks. We must also remember, that Gaara only had a small fraction of his fathers Gold Dust, whereas Sasori has a whole load of it [
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]. What does this mean? It means Sasori’s product is going to be way denser, meaning the replication of Gaara’s feat with his fathers Gold Dust is entirely possible, if not likely. We know one gold atom is heavier than one iron atom, but if the amount of iron vastly outweighs that of the gold, then there is no denying the fact that Iron sand can successfully capture Jouki. Just like in this instance, where Sasori has amassed a huge amount of Satetsu. With this, he can successfully capture Jouki boy.Right, so you claim Iron is a good conductor of heat, so it'll cause it to explode quicker? Dead wrong. You see, Gold is also a fairly good conductor of heat, but that didn't stop Gaara from capturing it. Capturing Jouki boy went off of the basis of Gold being heavier than water, whereas Iron too is heavier than water. Difference is, Sasori has a whole load of it, increasing its density, solidifying its capture. It's clear Kishimoto didn't study for it, but fortunately for me, manga facts > real science when its given.
Once his two main techniques are stopped in their tracks, Sasori can capture Nidaime Mizukage in Iron sand, and proceed to suffocate him. Iron is way too dense for it to be destroyed by oil, which has a density of less than one.
Inaccuracy Of Gaara's Sand Capabilities
You'll have to do a lot better than this if you wish to triumph against me using my own character! I want to first say that since Since I've made the introductory argument Sasori would be of no help with Gaara as he is (due to me going first) busy with Nidiame Mizukage. That is the perk of going first in a debate, use that as a tip my friend. Now to get on with these inefficient claims..
What really puzzles me is this accusation you confidently iterate here:
Key words: "Underground", and "Minerals". What lies underground? Rocks. What are rocks made of? Minerals. Now what element relates to Rocks? Earth. That is the key in destroying your Gaara's defense rebuttal, Raiton > Doton. Kakuzu's Gian would destroy Gaara's sand-based defense, along with his assaults due to the connection I've just made above.
However, that isn't all. You've also seemed to forget that
Another inaccurate accusation in which you know is incorrect has been iterated as well:
The rest has no need for a presented counter as I've already established Sasori is busy with The 2nd Mizukage.
Nonsense. Gaara's sandbased techniques all have the same weakness; Raiton-based Penetration. It doesn't matter if the assault is big, small, thick, etc. The assault could be varied and would still be nullified as useless EG:
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. So you listing how/what strong Gaara's sand has endured, and/or achieved doesn't mean Kakuzu's Raiton-based assault wouldn't destroy or make an opening within Gaara's defense/assault, remember it doesn't matter how strong of a technique is, up against it's weakness it is outclassed and in this situation Raiton > Sand.What really puzzles me is this accusation you confidently iterate here:
These sentences caught my eye the most in this whole rebuttal, and the reason for that is because both are terribly inaccurate. While it is true that The Shield of Shukaku is rather dense, you cannot presume that Kakuzu's Gian would not pierce it due to Kimimaro's Ultimate Spear (hyped to be anyway) couldn't pierce it. Remember, Kimimaro had no nature affinity, thus it was done with pure brute force however, this would not be the case for Kakuzu seeing as he possesses Gaara's weakness; Raiton. This is to simple though, I must deconstruct your accusation about Kakuzu not being able to penetrate Gaara's defense.
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Key words: "Underground", and "Minerals". What lies underground? Rocks. What are rocks made of? Minerals. Now what element relates to Rocks? Earth. That is the key in destroying your Gaara's defense rebuttal, Raiton > Doton. Kakuzu's Gian would destroy Gaara's sand-based defense, along with his assaults due to the connection I've just made above.
However, that isn't all. You've also seemed to forget that
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, meaning it can attack from different angles, and/or used as a repeated assault. Another inaccurate accusation in which you know is incorrect has been iterated as well:
Gaara would be outnumbered, and outclassed. Bombarded by multiple Gian, causing his defense/offense to shatter, while also being continuously hit by Katon, and Wind-based attacks, topping it off with
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. Gaara has no way in defending against a 4 vs 1, especially not against a ninja with experience such a Kakuzu.The rest has no need for a presented counter as I've already established Sasori is busy with The 2nd Mizukage.
It seems you've underestimated, or simply forgotten about Kakuzu's Jiongu, this technique was classified as forbidden for nothing as it potentially has the power to solo Gaara without elemental use. That is correct, Jiongu can solo Gaara. Now let me explain as to why I can confidently say this:
It was shown that Kakuzu was able to
Ultimately, Gaara would be overwhelmed yet again.
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allows him to
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meaning he wouldn't have to worry about Gaara's elevation in the midst of battle causing this to furthermore prove as an advantageous situation to Kakuzu.
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It was shown that Kakuzu was able to
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meaning his tendrils are quite strong, and durable. Not only this the ability to navigate underground, and resurface may hint to the fact that his tendrils can seep through cracks, or make cracks within the ground to travel. Gaara's main attack/defense is sand (Earth-based) Kakuzu's threads would undoubtedly dig through the dense, and thickened sand making an opening to attack Gaara. After all Kakuzu does possesses hundreds, maybe even thousands of threads within his body, in which he can maneuver outstandingly (which is why I've renowned him as the most versatile character). Ultimately, Gaara would be overwhelmed yet again.
Posting Mizukage Part tomorrow, this will be my last post undoubtedly as I have hardly any time for NB.
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SasoriOfTheRedSaand
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I'm gonna post my rebuttal now, and if he edits his post, I'll edit mine when the time comes. I won't be active from after tomorrow, as I have to prepare for exams.
SasoriOfTheRedSaand
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Rebuttal
Kakuzu
Sorry proof, but countering half my post (and I'm talking about Kakuzu here) will do you no good. You're clinging onto my words of Gian not being able to pierce his ultimate shield, but you forget another thing I said which I will re-post. I couldn't help but notice you failed to provide a counter to the destruction of the masks, as well as you completely ignoring part of my original post, which was;
Why ignore this part Proof? If it has anything to do with "Sasori being busy with Nidaime Mizukage", then that's really not good enough. During any stage of the fight, should Gaara require Iron sand, Sasori won't be too far off as they're situated in the same location and their distance wouldn't be a factor. Not to mention, they must to come together in order to overcome the Mirage Genjutsu. Borrowing sand requires extremely little time, and holds no prerequisites. It is there for him, should he need it. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you why Gian wouldn't be able to pierce his sand packed with Iron sand. In fact, no one besides Gaara himself knew that he had borrowed some of his fathers sand, which goes to show just how little time it actually requires[
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].Whether Kimimaro lacks an affinity is not the point, Gian and Kimi's ultimate spear are both piercing techniques. Gian ought to be stronger, no doubt, but from time Gaara's making his Iron spear shatter is surely something to note. Not to mention; a caption from the Databook dubs it as...
And like I said, should Gaara's ultimate defense be penetrated, it's fusion with Iron sand will leave absolutely zero room for doubt, that Gian wouldn't be able to pierce it. The combination of the two sands, formulating into the Shield of Shukaku would simply be way too strong.
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Concerning his Fire and Fuuton combo, I feel like I'm having to repeat myself here.
Wind acts as a sort of, knife, so to speak. Will it cut through his sand? Nope, not when it took 5 Susano'o clone swords to barely send him tumbling over, and even then, he wasn't scarred at all. And fire? Ineffective until it's somehow proven to be hotter than Enton, which is isn't. If anything, it is the masks which would be overwhelmed by the unfavourable location. Since you ignored pretty much most of what I said, I'll leave Kakuzu and his masks here.
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Part II
You were shocked at my belief of Gaara overcoming Gian... but this, this takes the cake my friend. First of all, The scan you provided proves nothing when it comes to range. Kakuzu was approximately 20-30 meters away Ino. Have you proved that Kakuzu has at least some range? Yeah, sure. But you haven't proved it can par the distance at which Gaara can send his sand, which is limited only to his imagination. Gaara's ability to manipulate the sand with his chakra, and him being in favourable conditions with a lot of sand at his disposal means he undoubtedly boasts the range advantage against Kakuzu. If his range was truly all that good, why not lunge straight for Naruto, right here? [
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]Alright, what? No matter how you put it, Kakuzu's threads strongest feat is ripping hearts out. Navigating threads underground holds absolutely zero weight. Various Doton users can do the exact same thing, and they're human. I'm pretty sure an inanimate thing such as threads ought to be easier, since they have more piercing proximity.
Okay, you seem to drastically underrate Gaara's sand defense, so I'm going to brake it down like this. If any one of Madara's Susano'o clones were to pierce the ground with it's swords, it would undoubtedly pierce the earth, correct? Well, Gaara's sand managed to fend off 5 while defending Mei, and it hardly pierced his sand, it was more of overpowering the sand. If 5 Susano'o swords with more piercing capabilites aren't able to successfully pierce Gaara's sand and kill him [
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] [
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], what makes you think some measly threads (in comparison to swords) would do the trick? Clear underestimation. Adding fuel to the fire,that was only his auto defense, meaning he only had a little bit of sand to protect him, as seen in the scan. This time, he can assemble a lot more.With all of Kakuzu's masks being ineffective against Gaara's ultimate defense combined with some of Sasori's Satetsu, Kakuzu gets sealed by the former Shukaku host, like so [
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].This too will be my last post. I'm going to be extremely busy starting tomorrow due to exams, so as soon as Proof finishes on his end, I'll do the same on my end and we'll leave it to the judges.