“Imperfect” Sage mode

Steinbiz

Active member
Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
3,864
Kin
18💸
Kumi
27💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Ok, I believe this needs to be addressed about sage mode. Specifically Jiraiya’s sage mode.

1.) Over the years, there’s been a misinterpretation on how “imperfect” sage mode works. People assume it’s weaker than perfect/normal sage mode. When that is NOT the case. Which can be shown with Sage Jiraiya’s Ultimate Rasengan being just as big as Sage Naruto’s Ultimate Rasengan. Or Sage Jiraiya being able to speed-blitz and react to any Pain body as easily as Naruto did. Being an “imperfect” sage only means that’s you’re not able to balance your own chakra with natural energy correctly. Resulting in a change to your physical appearance. Which is why Jiraiya hated using sage mode because it made him unattractive with women. Jiraiya was unable to correctly gather natural energy perfectly to enter or maintain sage mode by himself. Which is why he summons Fukasaku and Shima to help him using the sage art: amphibian jutsu. Which, essentially gives Jiraiya infinite sage mode. As long as Fukasaku and Shima are fused to Jiraiya gathering and balancing his natural energy, he can stay in sage mode as long as he needs.

2.) The next point that needs to be brought up is Jiraiya “not” having sage sensory abilities. In his fight with Pain, the Asura path snuck up behind him and blew his arm off. But if he’s in Sage mode, shouldn’t he have sensed Asura path and easily dodged? Well, yes, he should have. It’s basically due to either plot or a lack of development in the author’s writing. Which happens quite often. I personally think the author didn’t incorporate sage sensory or frog kata into sage mode at this point cause he just simply didn’t think of it yet. And EVEN IF someone could argue that Jiraiya didn’t have sage sensory, he still had Fukasaku and Shima, 2 perfect, experienced sages on his shoulders. Surely 1 of them should’ve been able to sense the Asura path right?

3.) Last point I wanted to bring up is me just being disgusted with how the author buffs certain characters for the sake of plot. I’m sorry, but Madara WITH the Rinnegan and EMS was unable to react quick enough to the Raikage. While Sage Naruto is able to easily dodge the 3rd Raikage and Sage Kabuto is able to easily dodge Sasuke’s Susano arrow. But a BLIND Madara is able to speed-blitz Sage Naruto without any distractions? Pure bs.

So before you say Sage Jiraiya is “fodder” or whatever. Remember to do your research.
 

Attachments

  • Like
Reactions: LightSo6p

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
3. Isn't an argument, Madara with Rinnegan was playing with the Kage and testing them as was confirmed. Madara when blind showed he spanks. Add eyes to that and he violates SM users hard. Also, no 2 SM are equal and neither are the users.
 

minamoto

Active member
Supreme
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
22,577
Kin
25,811💸
Kumi
11,914💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
What he told Kabuto could be a lie, but why would he lie to his own will?
not its not lie it makes sence.....becuz when madara awakened rinnegan he was old and weak...so he didn't have good oportunity to test out its powers...but when he got revived he took advantage of his edoimmortalirty to test his rinnegan powers....

-madara can't lie to kaboto becuz kaboto said to him " i created ur powerz" to wich madara responded : "make no mistake u diddn't creat this powerz"

but when madara speak to black zetsu he meant : " i want to measure my powerz with powerz of 5 kages"....but still teh 5 kages fight was like child game for him..

teh senju powerz boosted madara stenght to 50%..
 

HowDidIGetPrem

Active member
Elite
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
5,820
Kin
5,803💸
Kumi
1,192💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
But they truly aren't equal. Jirayai accomplished feats comparable to Naruto's own, because Jiraiya had a better starting point NOT because their SMs are exactly as effective. If Base Naruto were a 50, Base Jiraiya would be like a 75 or something. Then SM comes into the equation. Naruto's would bump him up 3 times to 150, and Jiraiya's would bump him up 2 times to 150. The numbers are probably way off, but it's the idea that I'm trying to get across.

Why Madara achieved so much with SM is because of multiple reasons.
1. After being revived, he was no longer restricted by his edo body.
2. He had Hashirama's Sage Mode, which may be stronger than Frog Sage Mode.
3. Madara's starting point(or base) is drastically higher than Naruto's, so it's only natural that Madara can blitz Naruto when he gets SM.
 

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
But they truly aren't equal. Jirayai accomplished feats comparable to Naruto's own, because Jiraiya had a better starting point NOT because their SMs are exactly as effective. If Base Naruto were a 50, Base Jiraiya would be like a 75 or something. Then SM comes into the equation. Naruto's would bump him up 3 times to 150, and Jiraiya's would bump him up 2 times to 150. The numbers are probably way off, but it's the idea that I'm trying to get across.

Why Madara achieved so much with SM is because of multiple reasons.
1. After being revived, he was no longer restricted by his edo body.
2. He had Hashirama's Sage Mode, which may be stronger than Frog Sage Mode.
3. Madara's starting point(or base) is drastically higher than Naruto's, so it's only natural that Madara can blitz Naruto when he gets SM.
3. Madara blitzed before he got SM.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Steinbiz

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Oh, right. He did. I still think it's reasonable though. Madara's eyes wouldn't make him any faster, and he was already as fast as Hashirama when he was alive. Looks like he used body flicker too.
His eyes would in that tunnel vison would be eliminated and he would have predictive movement. So he can react and counter better. Also he was faster than Hashirama. Remember Madara didn't have healing, but Hashirama did. Madara had to be faster to ensure he wasn't injured. On the other hand Hashi used to sustain injuries and heal from them. That means Madara was fast and strong enough to inflict injuries. He even impaled SM Hashi with rods, while being nowehre near living self power levels. That means Madara would be as fast or slightly faster than SM Hashi. At leasts that's what I've concluded from statements and feats.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: HowDidIGetPrem

HowDidIGetPrem

Active member
Elite
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
5,820
Kin
5,803💸
Kumi
1,192💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
His eyes would in that tunnel vison would be eleiminated and he would have predicrive movement. So he can react and counter better. Also he was fasfer than Hashirama. Remember Madara didn't have healing, but Hashirama did. Madara had to be faster to ensure he wasn't injured. On the other hand Hashi used to sustain injuries and heal from them. That means Madara was fast and strong enough to ibfluct injuries. He even impaled SM Hashi with rods, while bing nowehre near living power levels. That means Madara would be as fast or alightly faster than SM Hashi. At leasts that's what I've concluded from statements and feats.
Checks out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: salamander uchiha

Steinbiz

Active member
Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
3,864
Kin
18💸
Kumi
27💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I’m not trying to be mean. But it just seems like people are hyping Madara because he’s MADARA. He didn’t have sage mode, yet he outmaneuvers a sage when a sage can outmaneuver the Raikage. And then one of the dumbest things ever in the show. Madara without ANY eyes activated Susano for the sake of plot. Even when it’s stated that Mangekyou abilities come from the chakra built up in the Mangekyou Sharingan itself. Yet Madara just pulls it out of his ass.

thats like ripping out Neji’s Byakugan but he still somehow can see 360 x-ray vision.
 

salamander uchiha

Active member
Legendary
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
Messages
17,628
Kin
9,043💸
Kumi
6,082💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I’m not trying to be mean. But it just seems like people are hyping Madara because he’s MADARA. He didn’t have sage mode, yet he outmaneuvers a sage when a sage can outmaneuver the Raikage. And then one of the dumbest things ever in the show. Madara without ANY eyes activated Susano for the sake of plot. Even when it’s stated that Mangekyou abilities come from the chakra built up in the Mangekyou Sharingan itself. Yet Madara just pulls it out of his ass.

thats like ripping out Neji’s Byakugan but he still somehow can see 360 x-ray vision.
Madara was always shown to be fast though, just because Naruto kept up with a Raikage in SM doesn't mean he can do the same with Madara. Madara was supposed to be an apex character, not comparable to the general populace or Kages. As for Susanoo that was never stated to be the case, it draws chakra from the cells as Sasuke confirmed. You have Itachi using without MS and while he's blind. I suppose initial activation requires the MS after that, it's not the case. I mean Itachi can even detach Susanoo from himself and still keep it up. I suppose it varies from user to user.

Neji cannot be compared to characters like Madara.
 

Silenqe

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2019
Messages
324
Kin
1,081💸
Kumi
357💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Ok, I believe this needs to be addressed about sage mode. Specifically Jiraiya’s sage mode.

1.) Over the years, there’s been a misinterpretation on how “imperfect” sage mode works. People assume it’s weaker than perfect/normal sage mode. When that is NOT the case. Which can be shown with Sage Jiraiya’s Ultimate Rasengan being just as big as Sage Naruto’s Ultimate Rasengan. Or Sage Jiraiya being able to speed-blitz and react to any Pain body as easily as Naruto did. Being an “imperfect” sage only means that’s you’re not able to balance your own chakra with natural energy correctly. Resulting in a change to your physical appearance. Which is why Jiraiya hated using sage mode because it made him unattractive with women. Jiraiya was unable to correctly gather natural energy perfectly to enter or maintain sage mode by himself. Which is why he summons Fukasaku and Shima to help him using the sage art: amphibian jutsu. Which, essentially gives Jiraiya infinite sage mode. As long as Fukasaku and Shima are fused to Jiraiya gathering and balancing his natural energy, he can stay in sage mode as long as he needs.

2.) The next point that needs to be brought up is Jiraiya “not” having sage sensory abilities. In his fight with Pain, the Asura path snuck up behind him and blew his arm off. But if he’s in Sage mode, shouldn’t he have sensed Asura path and easily dodged? Well, yes, he should have. It’s basically due to either plot or a lack of development in the author’s writing. Which happens quite often. I personally think the author didn’t incorporate sage sensory or frog kata into sage mode at this point cause he just simply didn’t think of it yet. And EVEN IF someone could argue that Jiraiya didn’t have sage sensory, he still had Fukasaku and Shima, 2 perfect, experienced sages on his shoulders. Surely 1 of them should’ve been able to sense the Asura path right?

3.) Last point I wanted to bring up is me just being disgusted with how the author buffs certain characters for the sake of plot. I’m sorry, but Madara WITH the Rinnegan and EMS was unable to react quick enough to the Raikage. While Sage Naruto is able to easily dodge the 3rd Raikage and Sage Kabuto is able to easily dodge Sasuke’s Susano arrow. But a BLIND Madara is able to speed-blitz Sage Naruto without any distractions? Pure bs.

So before you say Sage Jiraiya is “fodder” or whatever. Remember to do your research.
I havn't seen anyone talk about this before but it is interesting. I like to argue about Naruto stuff with people, so here i go.

First ) In the case of Jiraiya's rasengan being bigger then Naruto's is completely stupid. I don't see why this is an arguement? The Rasengan is not a Sage Mode only technique and has nothing with it to do. The only thing it proves is that, while in Sage Mode, has the same amount of chakra that Naruto does. This doesn't really prove anything. The only time he was on the same speed as pain is in taijutsu, which is understandable, but after that Jiraiya couldn't react to the wall behind him crushing down and what about the time he was in the water and pain came under him, crushed his throat and killed him?

Second ) Jiraiya stated that no matter how skilled a sensor is, they still cannot sense attacks and need to physically see the attack in order to counter it or dodge it. Sage mode does enhance it but as he stated he needs to actually see the attack. You said that Kishimoto often changes things for the plot? I do not recall a time were he does this and it doesnt have an explanation. Btw Kishimoto is one of the best manga authors that has ever lived. He is a genius when it comes to written mangas. The toads not being able to sense it is with the same argument, no matter how skilled a person is, they have to see the attack to dodge it.

Third ) Not a real argument mate. Just you being picky about the series. Madara being unable to dodge a dude stated to be as fast as light itself? Sure mate. Naruto is light speed as well get over it. Of course he was able to dodge the arrow? He had Sage Mode, so he had better sensory. See? I used your own argument against you mate. :ROFLMAO: Also it was never stated to be fast so again this argument is stupid. Blind Madara never speed blitzed Naruto while Naruto was in Sage Mode mate. :ROFLMAO:(y)

I think you should go and do your own research mate. :lmao:
Post automatically merged:

I’m not trying to be mean. But it just seems like people are hyping Madara because he’s MADARA. He didn’t have sage mode, yet he outmaneuvers a sage when a sage can outmaneuver the Raikage. And then one of the dumbest things ever in the show. Madara without ANY eyes activated Susano for the sake of plot. Even when it’s stated that Mangekyou abilities come from the chakra built up in the Mangekyou Sharingan itself. Yet Madara just pulls it out of his ass.

thats like ripping out Neji’s Byakugan but he still somehow can see 360 x-ray vision.
I don't have a lot of time rn to reply to this so i will do it quickly.

First part is true. Not a sake of plot, i believe it actually says an explanation on it.

There is one thing that kinda pisses me off and that is when Neji got killed. He could have used his perfect shield to block the attack, but no i guess not.
 

HowDidIGetPrem

Active member
Elite
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
5,820
Kin
5,803💸
Kumi
1,192💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
Awards
I’m not trying to be mean. But it just seems like people are hyping Madara because he’s MADARA. He didn’t have sage mode, yet he outmaneuvers a sage when a sage can outmaneuver the Raikage. And then one of the dumbest things ever in the show. Madara without ANY eyes activated Susano for the sake of plot. Even when it’s stated that Mangekyou abilities come from the chakra built up in the Mangekyou Sharingan itself. Yet Madara just pulls it out of his ass.

thats like ripping out Neji’s Byakugan but he still somehow can see 360 x-ray vision.
It's not just hyping Madara up. It's actually within his capabilities. When questioned who the strongest Non-Rikudo characters are, there's only 3 characters who're actual contenders: Hashirama, Madara, and maybe Obito. Excluding Gai here. You must also consider that EMS doesn't make Madara faster. Madara's body is already as fast as it is, and EMS' biggest influence on reactions is defensive(like when Sasuke dodged A) not offensive(such as when he attacked Naruto).

I see where you're coming from though. The fight Madara had with the Kages featured Madara with Hashi's DNA, Rinnegan, AND EMS. Edo or not, Madara WOULD'VE and SHOULD'VE handled Raikage's speed, right? If the Edo Raikage, Itachi, and Nagato, had so much speed, Edo Madara should also retain much of his own. How come Madara had to use his Susanoo to defend so often RATHER than simply dodging? It doesn't make sense for Madara to suddenly get ridiculously faster, Edo or not. I agree with that, but it's where we split ways.

Kishimoto created an inconsistency within his story, and you look at it chronologically while I look at it retroactively. As I see it, SM Naruto could not possibly touch Hashirama, who Madara fought as an equal(potentially as a superior even) in taijutsu, thus it makes sense to me that Madara blitzed Naruto. Madara has only gotten faster since then after gaining Hashirama's cells. You see that Edo Madara + Hashirama's cells can't dodge the attacks of Raikage, then wonder why he's able to blitz Naruto. Neither of us think that being an Edo should restrain him that much, but I accepted it and you called plot.

Ultimately, I think this should be decided by which interpretation creates the least flaws in the story. In mine, Edo Tensei would magically restrain Madara more than any other Edo. This is DESPITE Kabuto saying he made Madara's Edo special AND better than Madara's prime. I admit, this is plot, but I'll accept it for story reasons. In your interpretation, EMS Madara ISN'T and SHOULDN'T be faster than SM/KCM(KCM is faster than SM, but has slower reactions) Naruto, thus neither should Hashirama, which doesn't make sense to me. This is because SM/KCM Naruto isn't even particularly fast when compared to actual top tiers.
 

Steinbiz

Active member
Veteran
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
3,864
Kin
18💸
Kumi
27💴
Trait Points
0⚔️
I havn't seen anyone talk about this before but it is interesting. I like to argue about Naruto stuff with people, so here i go.

First ) In the case of Jiraiya's rasengan being bigger then Naruto's is completely stupid. I don't see why this is an arguement? The Rasengan is not a Sage Mode only technique and has nothing with it to do. The only thing it proves is that, while in Sage Mode, has the same amount of chakra that Naruto does. This doesn't really prove anything. The only time he was on the same speed as pain is in taijutsu, which is understandable, but after that Jiraiya couldn't react to the wall behind him crushing down and what about the time he was in the water and pain came under him, crushed his throat and killed him?

Second ) Jiraiya stated that no matter how skilled a sensor is, they still cannot sense attacks and need to physically see the attack in order to counter it or dodge it. Sage mode does enhance it but as he stated he needs to actually see the attack. You said that Kishimoto often changes things for the plot? I do not recall a time were he does this and it doesnt have an explanation. Btw Kishimoto is one of the best manga authors that has ever lived. He is a genius when it comes to written mangas. The toads not being able to sense it is with the same argument, no matter how skilled a person is, they have to see the attack to dodge it.

Third ) Not a real argument mate. Just you being picky about the series. Madara being unable to dodge a dude stated to be as fast as light itself? Sure mate. Naruto is light speed as well get over it. Of course he was able to dodge the arrow? He had Sage Mode, so he had better sensory. See? I used your own argument against you mate. :ROFLMAO: Also it was never stated to be fast so again this argument is stupid. Blind Madara never speed blitzed Naruto while Naruto was in Sage Mode mate. :ROFLMAO:(y)

I think you should go and do your own research mate. :lmao:
Post automatically merged:


I don't have a lot of time rn to reply to this so i will do it quickly.

First part is true. Not a sake of plot, i believe it actually says an explanation on it.

There is one thing that kinda pisses me off and that is when Neji got killed. He could have used his perfect shield to block the attack, but no i guess not.
No offense but you're not really countering my points. True, Rasengan size is not completely determined by sage chakra. But it's obviously implied that sage mode allowed him to use that jutsu in that instance. As far as the wall behind him crashing down, that wasn't canon, according to the manga. Plus he did turn around pretty much immediately after it was coming down. Then the part where he crushed his throat, he wasn't even in sage mode at that point. He already deactivated it.

And dude......the sage sensory does not work as you say. You're completely wrong, man. Madara had sage mode and dodged Tobirama's FTG without even seeing it. And Sage Kabuto dodged susano arrow without seeing it. See, I used your own logic against you. :) Plus when Naruto fought Pain, when they were inside Gamabunta's stomach, it was pitch black. But Naruto could still "see" Pain clear as day. With his sensing. That also probably is implied with Hagoromo's sage mode. He was able to see Madara's invisible Limbo's. You do not have to "SEE" the attack. Sensory with frog kata doesn't work that way.

Lastly, yes blind Madara did in fact speed-blitz Sage Naruto in the manga.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LightSo6p
Top