Free will is only an idea

[HiryuuSetsuka]

And LightBringer, I too ponder the same thing from the same perspective.. What was the "First" force..? I reckon it must've been "Time" but then you're thinking with play-doe logic once you aim to think faster than time lol.

 

[DESTRUCTO]

The ability to move beyond instinct. To make choices that can sometimes go against our better judgment. we are free to do as please, and yes there are consequences for some actions. We choose to follow our instinct for survival most of the time, only existing, but certain moments call for us to make a choice, to consider others and other possibilities. To think beyond ourselves and to think of others, that is our free will.

Now our will is a different story. The human will is a powerful thing. Once our mind is put to something, focused on a goal. Through our will power, any goal can be achieved.

 

[HiryuuSetsuka]

"To think beyond oneself"..
Um..
I'm not sure that's possible.. See, that's the illusion at work, how can one think beyond themselves..? You can only think within yourself with the illusion of otherwise..

 

[TheSyren]

You know, I posted something similar to this. I said that we are all slaves. It's unfortunate that the original poster doesn't believe in his post

 

[HiryuuSetsuka]

^In my opinion. My apologies, without that footnote I can imagine I sound pretentious.. >.<

 

[Lightbringer]

The ability to move beyond instinct. To make choices that can sometimes go against our better judgment. we are free to do as please, and yes there are consequences for some actions. We choose to follow our instinct for survival most of the time, only existing, but certain moments call for us to make a choice, to consider others and other possibilities. To think beyond ourselves and to think of others, that is our free will.

Now our will is a different story. The human will is a powerful thing. Once our mind is put to something, focused on a goal. Through our will power, any goal can be achieved.

Well not any goal, and the mindset doesn't control reality. If you are starving in the desert, you can't will yourself to find food; you can't will yourself to not die.

Just because we will ourselves to become rich, doesn't mean we will(yes the chances of becoming rich would sure increase, but it is not a guarantee)

Same goes with choice, we can't will ourselves to not make certain choices. For example: If you find someone or something(like music) attractive, you cannot will yourself to not be attracted to it.

It is only until the other driving forces of these are realized(like personality) affects our judgement.

 

[HiryuuSetsuka]

I wouldn't say "Slaves" per say, but in a way, yes.. I imagine that because we have the concept of "Freedom" we must first imagine a box.. A limit. Then imagine a state outside of it. We measure by comparison, it seems.

 

[dareak]

I don't really think we can ever know if free will exists. Look at it this way.

If "fate" or "destiny" exist for some reason, they are outside forces. If fate or destiny exist it means that our choices are predetermined. Most would say "well I can decide whether or not I will shoot a gun at a child". If fate or destiny exist then every single thought that you made during your decision-making process was predetermined.

That is why I believe we cannot confirm free will. I do not personally believe in fate or destiny simply because they are outside forces, while free will would be the natural state or base. Then again it could be argued that fate or destiny are the natural state and are not outside forces. At that point I would say that neither can be confirmed and there is no "atheistic"-type viewpoint here, you have to choose(lolz) to believe either fate or free will.

Bumpity Bump

 

[TheSyren]

I wouldn't say "Slaves" per say, but in a way, yes.. I imagine that because we have the concept of "Freedom" we must first imagine a box.. A limit. Then imagine a state outside of it. We measure by comparison, it seems.

How could you measure anything without a point of refference?

 

[HiryuuSetsuka]

Aye, so "Reality" is our Prison, so to speak..?

 

[Lightbringer]

Aye, so "Reality" is our Prison, so to speak..?

pretty much

 

[DESTRUCTO]

Well not any goal, and the mindset doesn't control reality. If you are starving in the desert, you can't will yourself to find food; you can't will yourself to not die.

Just because we will ourselves to become rich, doesn't mean we will(yes the chances of becoming rich would sure increase, but it is not a guarantee)

Same goes with choice, we can't will ourselves to not make certain choices. For example: If you find someone or something(like music) attractive, you cannot will yourself to not be attracted to it.

It is only until the other driving forces of these are realized(like personality) affects our judgement.

So how about the guy that cuts his own leg off, that is trapped, and hobbles through the woods for three days to civilization? Did he not will himself to live? Eventually most people give up, lose their will, become broken, and that is when death sets in. The capability of our will is astounding. We can impose it on others through force or charisma to achieve goals that are too great for one person. Through our will we practice, train, build ourselves to become better. No, you can't, through sheer will, fly on your own. I agree that is impossible. However, through your will power you can discipline yourself to go to hang gliding classes until you're certified to fly on your own, with a hang gliders help of course.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Perception is the majority of what reality is. anyone who has taken large doses of mushrooms or LSD know exactly what I'm talking about. It is a crazy moment to look down a hallway, that you have looked down for ten years, and see it completely different.

You can see yourself as a slave to your boss, a slave to the system, a slave to your instincts and inner impulses, or you can see yourself as a completely free being with the world at their finger tips... I'm gonna warn you though, it's going to take a lot of hard work.

 

[Lightbringer]

So how about the guy that cuts his own leg off, that is trapped, and hobbles through the woods for three days to civilization? Did he not will himself to live? Eventually most people give up, lose their will, become broken, and that is when death sets in. The capability of our will is astounding. We can impose it on others through force or charisma to achieve goals that are too great for one person. Through our will we practice, train, build ourselves to become better. No, you can't, through sheer will, fly on your own. I agree that is impossible. However, through your will power you can discipline yourself to go to hang gliding classes until you're certified to fly on your own, with a hang gliders help of course.

Reality is in the eye of the beholder. Perception is the majority of what reality is. anyone who has taken large doses of mushrooms or LSD know exactly what I'm talking about. It is a crazy moment to look down a hallway, that you have looked down for ten years, and see it completely different.

You can see yourself as a slave to your boss, a slave to the system, a slave to your instincts and inner impulses, or you can see yourself as a completely free being with the world at their finger tips... I'm gonna warn you though, it's going to take a lot of hard work.

well 3 days isn't enough to starve to death, and I think that is the max amount of days one can live without water as well.

But my point is, will is limited. Yes, some people have stronger wills, and willpower is a strong force in our life. But it cannot break boundaries, it cannot do everything always.

That man surviving for 3 days, crawling to civilization could have had knowledge on how to survive, how to properly cut the leg, how to bandage his wound to stop the bleeding, how maybe find the right herbs to eat, set up campfire and shelter, etc.

If you don't have that knowledge, then you're dead, regardless of will.....hence the knowledge is an outside and uncertain factor, because everyone has different knowledge.

 

[ThomasJeffersonwasasadist]

just because you are influenced to do something doesn't mean choice ie free will is just an idea. for example I can say go kill yourself which is influencing you to commit suicide but you can choose not to. I appreciate you taking time to make a thread but your poin.t is invalid .

 

[Lightbringer]

just because you are influenced to do something doesn't mean choice ie free will is just an idea. for example I can say go kill yourself which is influencing you to commit suicide but you can choose not to. I appreciate you taking time to make a thread but your poin.t is invalid .

yet you simply just telling me to go kill myself has no influence. If there is no reason to kill myself, then the choice has been already made.....I didn't ponder on your words to make a choice; I instinctively acted to not kill myself.

and acting on instincts doesn't define free will to choose, because you're not the one choosing...the instincts are.

 

[DESTRUCTO]

well 3 days isn't enough to starve to death, and I think that is the max amount of days one can live without water as well.

But my point is, will is limited. Yes, some people have stronger wills, and willpower is a strong force in our life. But it cannot break boundaries, it cannot do everything always.

That man surviving for 3 days, crawling to civilization could have had knowledge on how to survive, how to properly cut the leg, how to bandage his wound to stop the bleeding, how maybe find the right herbs to eat, set up campfire and shelter, etc.

If you don't have that knowledge, then you're dead, regardless of will.....hence the knowledge is an outside and uncertain factor, because everyone has different knowledge.

You need to start believing in yourself more and believing in others. How about this example. The holocaust survivors. Have you ever seen the pictures of them? So emaciated, that they are pretty much walking skeletons. It was through their will that they survived such a horrific event.

It was through human will that a railroad was built from coast to coast. It was through will that the pyramids were built. Yes knowledge is an important factor, but it is through our will that we gain that knowledge, that know how. With out the desire to learn how to do something, it will never be done. We aren't forced to strive for better things, we aren't forced to improve our lot in life. You have to want it. You have to move beyond your instinct to be comfortable to gain something great. It is our instinct to do as little as possible, to make ourselves comfortable. We get pleasure from it.

 

[Lightbringer]

You need to start believing in yourself more and believing in others. How about this example. The holocaust survivors. Have you ever seen the pictures of them? So emaciated, that they are pretty much walking skeletons. It was through their will that they survived such a horrific event.

It was through human will that a railroad was built from coast to coast. It was through will that the pyramids were built. Yes knowledge is an important factor, but it is through our will that we gain that knowledge, that know how. With out the desire to learn how to do something, it will never be done. We aren't forced to strive for better things, we aren't forced to improve our lot in life. You have to want it. You have to move beyond your instinct to be comfortable to gain something great. It is our instinct to do as little as possible, to make ourselves comfortable. We get pleasure from it.

I'm going to make this short since I'm pretty tired and will be my last comment for the day on this thread

about the holocaust example. My grandparents were survivors, what drove them was fear.....the fear of dying, the fear of being captured and tortured. Fear is an outside force that generates willpower....so does anger, and so does love. You can't generate willpower without an outside force.

This outside force is what gives you the will to live....it still isn't a pure original decision.

 

[DESTRUCTO]

Then I will end with this. This year I lost 50 lbs. and increased my strength by leaps and bounds. How? Through my own will, my desire to better myself, my decision to longer be a lazy turd and start doing something. Nothing else.

 

[Lightbringer]

Then I will end with this. This year I lost 50 lbs. and increased my strength by leaps and bounds. How? Through my own will, my desire to better myself, my decision to longer be a lazy turd and start doing something. Nothing else.

alright last one for real this time lol

But you still made the decision to lose weight because you wanted to look better, am I right?

You wanted to look better because society is what deems beauty(being thin, muscular, etc.) and yes beauty is different in many forms(you may have your own personal tastes), but that is still considered to be the primary qualities of beauty on the outside

You wanted to be attractive

You didn't want to be lazy because you want to go achieve something and compare yourself to others, not in a negative narcissistic way, but to be defined as accomplished rather than be known as a bum

Our society is what defines these terms

These terms influence your wants, and the wants influence your decisions.

 

[Unbiased King]

Are we free? Absolutely not, as we are tied to the things that make us human and that which life would be impossible without, as specified in the OP.

Do we have free will? Certainly, as our will is free, no matter what; one cannot overlook the fact that all action is indeed choice. But free will is only existent where choice is, no matter how biased or compelling it is.