Ishida's Ability(349)

[shadowriku]

First off hi, nice to be on these forums.
Completely forgot this first part but did anyone pay attention to ishida's licht regen in the chapter? It looks a hell of alot like the reiatsu on his shoulder during final form dun't it? Bringing back fond memories of Ishida's FF absolute ownage, as i've been browsing around, i've seen some thoughts and opinions that completely confuse me.
For some strange reason, everyone seems to think that "Chad" is stronger then ishida.
Just typing that gives me a wtfux look.
I'd love to hear people's thoughts as to why people thought that he would even need help from sado of all people against yammy.
IMPO, out of the original 5 that went to hueco mundo, Ishida is the second strongest, overall, right after Ichigo. No doubt in my mind.

Even taking this weeks latest chapter into account, i've always thought that ishida was pretty good, but he honestly surprised me. I would not have thought he would have lasted more then one hit on our little 4th, much less the rest of the characters currently there. (Excluding the captains)
Hell he got owned, but he lasted for quite a bit longer then one would expect and got some hits in, which could be also be said for ichigo.
And orihime having mental break down must have been occurring over some minutes...there is no way ishida could get his hand cut off, take out selee schneider, apply anesthesia AND stop the bleeding in the 5 seconds it seemed that it took for him to come back and say that. They must have been going at it for some length of time, and when comparing him lasting at all against someone who has reiatsu that feels like the sky itself, you cannot deny his strength. And please do not mention ichigo already being beaten down, as it was at the hands of his first ressureccion and has no standing nor point in ishida's strength.
Before all of this taking place in this chapter of course, taking in to account ishida's fighting style and his overbearing speed, which i have to say is at LEAST as fast as ichigo/wmask, the majority of our sword toting characters would be at a disadvantage against him. I don't want to just seem like im attacking chad here, but in terms of everyone available i believe he is barely more powerful then Renji and Rukia. He has no speed whatsoever, and his attacks are slow and would be cake for all the characters to dodge. He has a shield to consider, but how would that hold out against Ichigo's Getsuga, nor ishida's sprenger. (And I highly doubt his shield will enjoy selee schneider cuts.) For Leniency's sake he should be able to hold out against renji's bankai and Rukia's Mai's, but this could be debated. As far as Ishida and Ichigo are concerned, he's leftover spirit particles.

Regardless thats beyond the point. Excluding the captains as their strength in comparison to ichigo and co. do not even make the slightest bit of sense anymore, Ishida is both the second strongest in strength, and possibly the first in terms of potential, currently in hueco mundo. Of course the potential thing is a whole other topic.

Bring me your babies.

 

[Zanji]

Well I for one would have to give your entire post a big thumbs down dude, sorry. But when it comes down to who is stronger than who and who is faster than who and who can last longer against who

Ishada may be quick on the feet but he is no where near the speed of Vizard Ichigo. As for the whole tid bit on Chad being the better choice to fight Yammy...that would have turned into nothing but a pure slug fest between the two muscle heads. They went with Ishada because he uses traps and tactics, Sado uses his strength. But him being stronger than Renji and Rukia? Not a chance when they are in the human world they have limiters put on them so they don't go overboard on fighting an enemy. So Chad has yet to even go against Renji at 100%.

The whole fight between Ishada and Ulquiorra. Ishada was in the same boat as Kurosaki not able to get one hit in on him. Yes, Ishada did shoot at him with an arrow but i you saw it was quickly disbursed by the flick of a wing. Ishada didn't get one hit in and was only knocked down twice from what we saw 1st time at losing his hand second time at getting TKOed. Kurosaki lasted longer he kept getting right back up for more and lasted longer because he went Vizard one last time before getting blasted and he still isn't done yet considering he has a hole in his chest the size of a basketball.

 

[shadowriku]

your not taking in the scope of things at all.
Of course i've considered renji being at only 1/4 of his power, that does not change the fact that chad has a shield that can block just about anything renji throws at him. Even so, like i said, theres no proof that he will win, but you can't just throw him out of the running.
And if your talking about ishida being weaker then rukia or renji...no way in hell. They would barely be able to avoid his arrows, he no longer has a melee weakness, plus the fact that he can absorb any kido attacks they use, along with renji's baboon cannon and rukai's mai.(that attack has to based on reiatsu.) Be serious here and tell me how they would manage to beat him, if they could even hit him.

Ishida has used a trap...twice? In the entire manga? Excluding his fights when he had no powers of course.

Ishida was the first character after byakuya to demonstrate any type of high speed movement, meaning that he has had to have had alot of time using it. If you consider one of ishida's "tactics" taking his enemies by surprise, there is no way in hell he could sneak up on anyone unless his speed was at least on par with theirs. And he's done so against EVERY enemy he has fought since Soul society. Mayuri, the cosplayer, Aporro, Yammy and the 4th espada. If only taking the 4th espada into consideration, you think someone who was able to completely overpower ichigo in speed even before he went to his seccond ressurection could be snuck up on in terms of that same speed? Ishida relies on his swallow step, and uses it extensively. You can't fully say how fast he is, but there are way more facts pointing to the idea that ishida is damn fast then him being slower then any of the shinigami.

After the Ulquiorra went into his second ressurection ichigo lost immediately. I already said you cannot compare the fact that ichigo had already had a beating from his first form, as his second form can be considred to be vastly more powerful and ishida has been fighting it...and isn't dead yet. And apparently you didn't read the chapter very clearly. right after that first arrow got smashed, he used an attack that made his arm look quite similar to his final form, Light rain. (Licht Regen) Please look at the chapter again if you didn't see this.
Regardless this didn't have much effect, but nothing ichigo did did absolutely ANYTHING either, besides the fact that he didn't do much more then what ishida did, besides getting stabbed more. Once again, we did not see some parts of the fight between Ishida and Ulquiorra, as clearly he could not have applied anesthetic and stopped the bleeding on the stump of a hand that he now has in those apparent seconds Orihime succumbed to her crack influence. He couldn't even form arrows anymore, and was fighting left-handed with the selee schneider. And he's still fighting too isn't he?
Thats nothing to compare to having a crater in your chest, but that ain't ichigo getting up is it? Im pretty damn sure its not.
And i personally believe that losing an appendage is a hell of alot more painful then getting stabbed...maybe thats just me. (Kidding...we all know ichigo received way more of an ***-whoopin.)

 

[Skye Kaguya]

Ishida is a weakling... its pretty noble what hes doing... but he doesnt stand a chance...

 

[Goro Kaguya]

Thumbs UP kid. Ishada is kicking ass and taking names. Although he will die at the hands of the 4th espada if Old Man Zangetsu doesn't take over ichigo's body...

 

[roflcopter]

Ishida is not at vice-captain level. Nowhere near ;( NO!

i hope so. I hate his white clothes and attitude. =[

 

[shadowriku]

near vice captain?
I can't even take you seriously.
But yah he's toast in about another hit or two. Ulquiorra probably won't even get the chance to do that much, the way ichigo basically went SSJ3 on us.

 

[ssanimo]

well.......you should think b4 you reply.........as ishida has defeated a captain long b4 coming to HM.........he is in all likelyhood at or just below captain class.......not becuz of reitsu but becuz of cunning and battle experience............

honestly i dont really like him (mainly becuz he looks gay) but that doesn't change the fact he is highly skilled.........nowhere near ichigo.......but still strong......as for the sado/ishida compairison.....your pissin in the wind so to speak as their styles differ greatly

and zangetsu......wont happen hollow ichi will take over from here......IMO ichi has the ability to go bankai and a 2 stage resurrection (mark my words) he is the only one capable as he is 1/3 human 1/3 shiningami and 1/3 hollow................and yes zanji he is human as it is repeatedly said throughout manga........just as i saaid he will go full hollow maybe even 2nd resurrection (although he wont need it vs ulquiorra.....but he will vs aizen as the vizards will not be strong enough.........

botton line he is the only one capable of doing so.......

the vizards will save the captains fighting the top 3 espada, ichi will throw a wrench into aizens plans

he will look like this

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

 

[Kisamekiller]

your not taking in the scope of things at all.
Of course i've considered renji being at only 1/4 of his power, that does not change the fact that chad has a shield that can block just about anything renji throws at him. Even so, like i said, theres no proof that he will win, but you can't just throw him out of the running.
And if your talking about ishida being weaker then rukia or renji...no way in hell. They would barely be able to avoid his arrows, he no longer has a melee weakness, plus the fact that he can absorb any kido attacks they use, along with renji's baboon cannon and rukai's mai.(that attack has to based on reiatsu.) Be serious here and tell me how they would manage to beat him, if they could even hit him.

Ishida has used a trap...twice? In the entire manga? Excluding his fights when he had no powers of course.

Ishida was the first character after byakuya to demonstrate any type of high speed movement, meaning that he has had to have had alot of time using it. If you consider one of ishida's "tactics" taking his enemies by surprise, there is no way in hell he could sneak up on anyone unless his speed was at least on par with theirs. And he's done so against EVERY enemy he has fought since Soul society. Mayuri, the cosplayer, Aporro, Yammy and the 4th espada. If only taking the 4th espada into consideration, you think someone who was able to completely overpower ichigo in speed even before he went to his seccond ressurection could be snuck up on in terms of that same speed? Ishida relies on his swallow step, and uses it extensively. You can't fully say how fast he is, but there are way more facts pointing to the idea that ishida is damn fast then him being slower then any of the shinigami.

After the Ulquiorra went into his second ressurection ichigo lost immediately. I already said you cannot compare the fact that ichigo had already had a beating from his first form, as his second form can be considred to be vastly more powerful and ishida has been fighting it...and isn't dead yet. And apparently you didn't read the chapter very clearly. right after that first arrow got smashed, he used an attack that made his arm look quite similar to his final form, Light rain. (Licht Regen) Please look at the chapter again if you didn't see this.
Regardless this didn't have much effect, but nothing ichigo did did absolutely ANYTHING either, besides the fact that he didn't do much more then what ishida did, besides getting stabbed more. Once again, we did not see some parts of the fight between Ishida and Ulquiorra, as clearly he could not have applied anesthetic and stopped the bleeding on the stump of a hand that he now has in those apparent seconds Orihime succumbed to her crack influence. He couldn't even form arrows anymore, and was fighting left-handed with the selee schneider. And he's still fighting too isn't he?
Thats nothing to compare to having a crater in your chest, but that ain't ichigo getting up is it? Im pretty damn sure its not.
And i personally believe that losing an appendage is a hell of alot more painful then getting stabbed...maybe thats just me. (Kidding...we all know ichigo received way more of an ***-whoopin.)

Although you make seemingly valid points, each and every one of them are based off of speculation and, no offense, but you're sounding more like a fanboy/girl (don't know your gender) than anything else. You're severely limiting the comparison of other character's powers and then glorifying Ishida's own, meaning that your opinion is extremely biased, making for a corrupted view on the matter.

Personally, I don't really care for Ishidi. Does that mean I'll sell him short? No I won't. However, you are comparing him in a glorified manner. In regards to him being able to defeat Renji you're wrong. Renji's bankai utilizes extremely powerful short, mid AND long ranged melee attacks that could easily overwhelm Ishida's own strength. It's true that Ishida is fast, perhaps even as fast as a lower leveled Espada 10-8, however that hardly makes up for his lacking areas.

If you want to look at it in a direct manner, Ishida has a lower constitution than Renji, and Ishida is relatively limited on his abilities to attack, only being able to rely on his bow or Seele Schnieder. And although both are powerful, they aren't all powerful. Renji would likely be able to match Ishida on speed (given the fact that in bankai he actually managed to touch Byakuya, a feat that Ishida has no hopes on surpassing), and then there is his brute strength. It would be a matter of time until Renji would be able to over power and crush Ishida with Zabimaru.

Now for Rukia vs Ishida, this is a more difficult one to decide. However, you can't simply say that because her zanpakuto is reiatsu based that he could defeat her, his Seele Schneider doesn't work that way, if he can't directly block the attack he can't diffuse the spirit particles within the attack. And given that Rukia's Sugi no Mai is more of a wave than solid energy he wouldn't simply be able to deflect it. He could attempt to overwhelm it with his bow but then again its not an easy thing to decide. We'd actually have to SEE them fight one another before being able to decide how the fight would progress.

Now for Chad vs Ishida. This is yet again a more difficult decision. Yet, you have to remember that Chad isn't the slow, bulky fighter that he used to be. He was able to match and surpass a Privaron Espada who was an expert in Sonido and speed tactics. Then constitution comes into play, its unarguable that Chad is more physically powerful than ishida, plus his shield allows him to deflect any attacks thrown at him. So this is another impossible comparison as we'd have to see them fight one another. It is more likely however, that Sado would eventually come out on top.

 

[shadowriku]

Although you make seemingly valid points, each and every one of them are based off of speculation and, no offense, but you're sounding more like a fanboy/girl (don't know your gender) than anything else. You're severely limiting the comparison of other character's powers and then glorifying Ishida's own, meaning that your opinion is extremely biased, making for a corrupted view on the matter.

Personally, I don't really care for Ishidi. Does that mean I'll sell him short? No I won't. However, you are comparing him in a glorified manner. In regards to him being able to defeat Renji you're wrong. Renji's bankai utilizes extremely powerful short, mid AND long ranged melee attacks that could easily overwhelm Ishida's own strength. It's true that Ishida is fast, perhaps even as fast as a lower leveled Espada 10-8, however that hardly makes up for his lacking areas.

If you want to look at it in a direct manner, Ishida has a lower constitution than Renji, and Ishida is relatively limited on his abilities to attack, only being able to rely on his bow or Seele Schnieder. And although both are powerful, they aren't all powerful. Renji would likely be able to match Ishida on speed (given the fact that in bankai he actually managed to touch Byakuya, a feat that Ishida has no hopes on surpassing), and then there is his brute strength. It would be a matter of time until Renji would be able to over power and crush Ishida with Zabimaru.

Now for Rukia vs Ishida, this is a more difficult one to decide. However, you can't simply say that because her zanpakuto is reiatsu based that he could defeat her, his Seele Schneider doesn't work that way, if he can't directly block the attack he can't diffuse the spirit particles within the attack. And given that Rukia's Sugi no Mai is more of a wave than solid energy he wouldn't simply be able to deflect it. He could attempt to overwhelm it with his bow but then again its not an easy thing to decide. We'd actually have to SEE them fight one another before being able to decide how the fight would progress.

Now for Chad vs Ishida. This is yet again a more difficult decision. Yet, you have to remember that Chad isn't the slow, bulky fighter that he used to be. He was able to match and surpass a Privaron Espada who was an expert in Sonido and speed tactics. Then constitution comes into play, its unarguable that Chad is more physically powerful than ishida, plus his shield allows him to deflect any attacks thrown at him. So this is another impossible comparison as we'd have to see them fight one another. It is more likely however, that Sado would eventually come out on top.

If i had a favorite i'd have to say hollow ichigo. But ishida is just awesome in opinion.
Anyway from the ground up, i honestly have to say that ishida has alot more constitituion then one might think from such a tiny guy. We expect chad to be able to take blows obviously, but so far for what we've been shown, he hasn't taken much at all. (Kyoraku and Yammy and the former espada...i mean those were hits but honestly in comparison to the buckets of blood that ichi loses and the organs renji and ishida lost, thats nothing.)
His constitution is entirely up to speculation as well.
And of course, chad is the most physically powerful out of everyone there, but he is definetely the slowest. In the espada he fought said himself, Chad is strong but his speed is basically non-existant. Chad has never been shown using any type of high speed movement, minus the anime which is worth feces in terms of summing up character ability. Against Ishida, who relies on speed, he is at a sever disadvantage, especially since his ultimate attack involves physically hitting the opponent. The only thing that works in chad favor in this sort of match up is his shield which will most likely block those arrows, but any long range attacks he uses will be absorbed...and i'm pretty sure after absorbing the reiatsu from an attack like that, the selee would be able to pierce his shield. It would be a chainsaw filled with the opponents energy in such a situation no? Like you said this is speculation, but still....everything points to ishida to me.
Keep it coming though, i wanna here people's opinions.

As for renji, i honestly think that he stands less of a chance utilizing his bankai. As we've seen with byakuya, the weakness is the simple fact that he can barely hit anyone who has some semblance of speed once he uses it, and he hasn't done much more then learning to fire energy blasts from it since that point. We are talking about ishida here, and you cannot say he would be incapable of dodging that giant snake toy, dispersed or not. His only option at that point would be to fire reiatsu, which ishida basically lives off of.(leech status ftw.) I mean i know we have to actually see this fight take place, but comparing it to the fight with byakuya and the progression renji has had since then, i can't see him actually landing hits with zabimaru itself on ishida.

As for rukia and ishida, im not truly concerned about it because i believe that rukia is the weakest there period. I certainly believe she's skilled, if you compared her to renji for instance, but she lacks the raw power that the majority of the other characters bring, nor any of the extra perks of 1200 arrows, a hollow living inside of you, a giant shield+apparently death itself and a string of other bankais. Of course if she had a bankai she'd probably surpass renji at the least, but thats for the future isn't it?

As for the areas ishida lacks in, what is there really? He has completely overpowered range that would basically halt an opponent who must go through hell to get near him. His speed is clearly highly then you interpret to it to be... espada level 8-10? He waltzed behind Ulquiorra both before and after he started his ressurection, second time meaning that Ulquiorra had to be aware of at least his presence. And as he was specifically trying to halt ichigo from reaching orihime on purpose, i doubt he would have let anyone run in screaming imma chargin ma lazor. i would easily expect him to be faster then byakuya, who ichigo surpassed during his bankai. Once again...he snuck up on ulquiorra. Not to mention everyone else he's fought. You can't attribute that to luck, nor not consider the skill and speed the majority of his opponents had, which he easily surpassed. Attacking him directly would simply result in using the schneider, which he is profficient enough to even be fighting Ulquiorra with it, one-handed. And he would have been dead in one blow if he has not been at least defending/dodging, as Ulquiorra has no need to keep him alive as he did with ichigo.
In terms of fighting style he absorbs a near limitless amount of energy from around him to fuel his own power, and can absorb the (now bountiful) reiatsu-type attacks from his opponents. And like he's stated, its more of a chainsaw...its not something you just break through with brute force.

I have no plans on glorifying or selling short anyone...although i did basically do that to rukia. Regardless we all know that ichigo is the one who will be getting up to make Ulquiorra lick his shoes. I just think ishida deserves props and recognition is all...

And what does 1/3 human have to do with ichigo being powerful? Being human hasn't done nuthing for anyone in that manga X_X (Death, loss of powers, being eaten by hollows anyone?)
And ichigo has nothing to do with ressurections. I don't think he's much of a vaizard either...but what does he have to ressurect? His hollow never had more then that "lizard" type form that we've seen in the first place. And for whatever else will happen next we have to wait and see.

 

[Kisamekiller]

If i had a favorite i'd have to say hollow ichigo. But ishida is just awesome in opinion.
Anyway from the ground up, i honestly have to say that ishida has alot more constitituion then one might think from such a tiny guy. We expect chad to be able to take blows obviously, but so far for what we've been shown, he hasn't taken much at all. (Kyoraku and Yammy and the former espada...i mean those were hits but honestly in comparison to the buckets of blood that ichi loses and the organs renji and ishida lost, thats nothing.)
His constitution is entirely up to speculation as well.
And of course, chad is the most physically powerful out of everyone there, but he is definetely the slowest. In the espada he fought said himself, Chad is strong but his speed is basically non-existant. Chad has never been shown using any type of high speed movement, minus the anime which is worth feces in terms of summing up character ability. Against Ishida, who relies on speed, he is at a sever disadvantage, especially since his ultimate attack involves physically hitting the opponent. The only thing that works in chad favor in this sort of match up is his shield which will most likely block those arrows, but any long range attacks he uses will be absorbed...and i'm pretty sure after absorbing the reiatsu from an attack like that, the selee would be able to pierce his shield. It would be a chainsaw filled with the opponents energy in such a situation no? Like you said this is speculation, but still....everything points to ishida to me.
Keep it coming though, i wanna here people's opinions.

As for renji, i honestly think that he stands less of a chance utilizing his bankai. As we've seen with byakuya, the weakness is the simple fact that he can barely hit anyone who has some semblance of speed once he uses it, and he hasn't done much more then learning to fire energy blasts from it since that point. We are talking about ishida here, and you cannot say he would be incapable of dodging that giant snake toy, dispersed or not. His only option at that point would be to fire reiatsu, which ishida basically lives off of.(leech status ftw.) I mean i know we have to actually see this fight take place, but comparing it to the fight with byakuya and the progression renji has had since then, i can't see him actually landing hits with zabimaru itself on ishida.

As for rukia and ishida, im not truly concerned about it because i believe that rukia is the weakest there period. I certainly believe she's skilled, if you compared her to renji for instance, but she lacks the raw power that the majority of the other characters bring, nor any of the extra perks of 1200 arrows, a hollow living inside of you, a giant shield+apparently death itself and a string of other bankais. Of course if she had a bankai she'd probably surpass renji at the least, but thats for the future isn't it?

As for the areas ishida lacks in, what is there really? He has completely overpowered range that would basically halt an opponent who must go through hell to get near him. His speed is clearly highly then you interpret to it to be... espada level 8-10? He waltzed behind Ulquiorra both before and after he started his ressurection, second time meaning that Ulquiorra had to be aware of at least his presence. And as he was specifically trying to halt ichigo from reaching orihime on purpose, i doubt he would have let anyone run in screaming imma chargin ma lazor. i would easily expect him to be faster then byakuya, who ichigo surpassed during his bankai. Once again...he snuck up on ulquiorra. Not to mention everyone else he's fought. You can't attribute that to luck, nor not consider the skill and speed the majority of his opponents had, which he easily surpassed. Attacking him directly would simply result in using the schneider, which he is profficient enough to even be fighting Ulquiorra with it, one-handed. And he would have been dead in one blow if he has not been at least defending/dodging, as Ulquiorra has no need to keep him alive as he did with ichigo.
In terms of fighting style he absorbs a near limitless amount of energy from around him to fuel his own power, and can absorb the (now bountiful) reiatsu-type attacks from his opponents. And like he's stated, its more of a chainsaw...its not something you just break through with brute force.

I have no plans on glorifying or selling short anyone...although i did basically do that to rukia. Regardless we all know that ichigo is the one who will be getting up to make Ulquiorra lick his shoes. I just think ishida deserves props and recognition is all...

And what does 1/3 human have to do with ichigo being powerful? Being human hasn't done nuthing for anyone in that manga X_X (Death, loss of powers, being eaten by hollows anyone?)
And ichigo has nothing to do with ressurections. I don't think he's much of a vaizard either...but what does he have to ressurect? His hollow never had more then that "lizard" type form that we've seen in the first place. And for whatever else will happen next we have to wait and see.

Yeah, sorry but I'm going to be extremely blunt, you're a fanboy. You've completely disregarded everything I've said and used your speculation to fill your argument. You've failed to even recognize the fact that Chad hid a vast majority of his powers until he released his second arm which gave him the ability to greatly surpass a Privaron Espada in speed who specialized in Sonido. But then again I'm not going to repeat myself to somebody who's refusing to acknowledge the logic and hard facts.

And no, Ishida is far from being as fast as Byakuya, given the fact that Byakuya was able to dance circles around Zommiramu (sp) who was proclaimed as the fastest Espada by Kubo, whereas Ishida did have difficulty in keeping up with Syazel, like it or not.

Renji: I'm not repeating the argument there either. Don't like that then tough, talk to me when you observe all the facts before making a biased conclusion.

Rukia: that's speculation still

Now as for Ichigo and Byakuya. Lets take a trip down memory lane, because the only reason Ichigo managed to match Byakuya's speed was because his hollow took over, surprising Byakuya and allowing for an attack that severely weakened him. Meaning that Ichigo himself is not faster than Byakuya, given that Ichigo was getting destroyed by Byakuya's bankai until his hollow took over. Now if Ichigo could match Byakuya in speed again is only speculation again, given the fact that Byakuya is likely as fast as Yoruichi, who is far faster than Ichigo, even in his hollow form.

So I'll just say this, because after this post I'm leaving this thread, mainly due to my extreme distaste for a fanboy argument, acknowledge ALL the facts and evidence before ever opening your mouth or typing a reply, otherwise you'll discredit yourself. L8er

 

[shadowriku]

Yeah, sorry but I'm going to be extremely blunt, you're a fanboy. You've completely disregarded everything I've said and used your speculation to fill your argument. You've failed to even recognize the fact that Chad hid a vast majority of his powers until he released his second arm which gave him the ability to greatly surpass a Privaron Espada in speed who specialized in Sonido. But then again I'm not going to repeat myself to somebody who's refusing to acknowledge the logic and hard facts.

And no, Ishida is far from being as fast as Byakuya, given the fact that Byakuya was able to dance circles around Zommiramu (sp) who was proclaimed as the fastest Espada by Kubo, whereas Ishida did have difficulty in keeping up with Syazel, like it or not.

Renji: I'm not repeating the argument there either. Don't like that then tough, talk to me when you observe all the facts before making a biased conclusion.

Rukia: that's speculation still

Now as for Ichigo and Byakuya. Lets take a trip down memory lane, because the only reason Ichigo managed to match Byakuya's speed was because his hollow took over, surprising Byakuya and allowing for an attack that severely weakened him. Meaning that Ichigo himself is not faster than Byakuya, given that Ichigo was getting destroyed by Byakuya's bankai until his hollow took over. Now if Ichigo could match Byakuya in speed again is only speculation again, given the fact that Byakuya is likely as fast as Yoruichi, who is far faster than Ichigo, even in his hollow form.

So I'll just say this, because after this post I'm leaving this thread, mainly due to my extreme distaste for a fanboy argument, acknowledge ALL the facts and evidence before ever opening your mouth or typing a reply, otherwise you'll discredit yourself. L8er

um woah?
Where do you get fanboyism from questioning the strength of a character with facts?
I mean if your gonna throw a fit ok but at least have some facts to back it up...
Chad...hid nothing. He had no idea what he could do...and he said so himself. He did not surpass that former espada in speed in ANYWAY...he held him in place and finished him off. Even while the guy was losing he stated how slow chad was, despite his strength. How could you ignore that?

Another thing...Kubo has stated nothing about these characters. The characters said it themselves. Zommari said he was the fastest. Nnoitora said he had the strongest skin, and this was both out of all the espada. Yet Stark dissapeared so quickly with orihime she barely had time to blink, and Zaraki was cutting Nnoitora up like butter pretty quickly after the fight started. The espada can talk alot of smack but that dosen't mean anything when you call rank into the equation. Zommari and byakuya's fight means nothing.

Did you honestly say that ichigo ONLY matched his speed when his hollow took over? Have you READ the manga? for the 15% of the fight that hollow ichigo was involved in, this was after byakuya already started using the second part of his bankai....what happened to the whole other 2 chapters of bankai vs. bankai fighting? Not only that, Ichigo only got slower because he couldn't control his bankai well yet...which was stated by Byakuya and hollow ichi. Before that the fight apparently meant nothing, and his speed only matters after he gets weak from inexperience....right
The fact that your even comparing byakuya to yoruichi after she straight dissed him is beyond me.

Ishida had trouble with Syazel? After he ressurected and rained that clone stuff on him yes...but ishida had no problem taking Syazel by surprise the first time, and avoided getting hit AT ALL until he ressurected. Thats alot more then we can say for renji.

the only thing that seems really biased here is your personal opinion on matters....when logical reasoning for the majority of these events should be what dictates the reality of things, not speclation.

 

[Kisamekiller]

um woah?
Where do you get fanboyism from questioning the strength of a character with facts?
I mean if your gonna throw a fit ok but at least have some facts to back it up...
Chad...hid nothing. He had no idea what he could do...and he said so himself. He did not surpass that former espada in speed in ANYWAY...he held him in place and finished him off. Even while the guy was losing he stated how slow chad was, despite his strength. How could you ignore that?

Another thing...Kubo has stated nothing about these characters. The characters said it themselves. Zommari said he was the fastest. Nnoitora said he had the strongest skin, and this was both out of all the espada. Yet Stark dissapeared so quickly with orihime she barely had time to blink, and Zaraki was cutting Nnoitora up like butter pretty quickly after the fight started. The espada can talk alot of smack but that dosen't mean anything when you call rank into the equation. Zommari and byakuya's fight means nothing.

Did you honestly say that ichigo ONLY matched his speed when his hollow took over? Have you READ the manga? for the 15% of the fight that hollow ichigo was involved in, this was after byakuya already started using the second part of his bankai....what happened to the whole other 2 chapters of bankai vs. bankai fighting? Not only that, Ichigo only got slower because he couldn't control his bankai well yet...which was stated by Byakuya and hollow ichi. Before that the fight apparently meant nothing, and his speed only matters after he gets weak from inexperience....right
The fact that your even comparing byakuya to yoruichi after she straight dissed him is beyond me.

Ishida had trouble with Syazel? After he ressurected and rained that clone stuff on him yes...but ishida had no problem taking Syazel by surprise the first time, and avoided getting hit AT ALL until he ressurected. Thats alot more then we can say for renji.

the only thing that seems really biased here is your personal opinion on matters....when logical reasoning for the majority of these events should be what dictates the reality of things, not speclation.

Once again you ignored the facts. And refrain from saying I've thrown a fit simply because I left an argument that is based entirely on speculation. It seems you fail to see what everyone else has seen throughout the series. I'm tired of attempting at an actual discussion with somebody who is so set on being right that it clouds their judgement. It isn't my style.

As for Chad, maybe YOU should look at the manga a bit closer eh? Because Chad did indeed defeat the Privaron in speed and strength, but then again you can argue that all you want, I'm not the one ignoring a key fact.

Byakuya vs Ichigo yet again. I find it funny how you ignored the part of that argument that entailed Byakuya being nearly as fast as Yoruichi, a character who Ichigo has never even come close to surpassing in seed, even while in bankai. Ichigo is hardly as outright fast as Byakuya, just like how Ichigo is hardly as outright powerful as Kenpachi. How did he defeat these characters? He's the main character so its GONNA happen. After all, that's all anime is is a bunch of unlikely heros standing up and somehow pwning the masses. It was thanks only to the inner hollow that Ichigo was able to critically injure Byakuya, an act that then put them back on even ground in terms of speed. It would likely be the same still, even after Ichigo had learned to control, given the fact that...whether you like it or not, Byakuya IS THE SECOND FASTEST SHINIGAMI/Vizard ect SECONDED ONLY TO YORUICHI. Was that in big enough caps? Gotta make sure you don't ignore it again.

And just to quote a wonderful source here's some more for you

Flash Step Master: Byakuya is an probably best known for his usage in Flash steps. Although having been taught by but never beating "Goddess of Flash" Yoruichi Shihōin, he is still easily one of the most proficient users of this skill in all of Soul Society. One of Byakuya's favorite technique as described by Renji is Senka (閃花, Flash Blossom), a flash step combined with a spin to quickly move behind the enemy, followed by a strike aimed to destroying the Saketsu chain and the Hakusui soul sleep with a single thrust. Another technique taught to him by Yoruichi called Utsusemi (空蝉; cicada, referencing their molting) which allows Byakuya to move at great speed leaving an afterimage behind, though Byakuya states to Zommari that he prefers not to use it because Yoruichi Shihōin taught it to him.

All of that info gives us the wonderful message that Byakuya is indeed the fester shinigami, bested only by Yoruichi who WAS HIS TEACHER. But that doesn't matter right? I mean, you're just going to ignore it yet again like you've been doing to the majority of any text put down by others. My advice, go and actually pay attention to what you're attempting to argue.

Also, another flash back. Lets go and see how it was that Ishida managed to "beat" perhaps one of the weakest captains in all of Seireitei. Last I checked....Ishida had to go Quincy Final Form didn't he? Why, yes he did. Now ain't that a funny bit? Seeing as how he can't just go Quincy Final Form whenever he wants its not something to be thrown into an equation such as this. So you may wish to remove the bit about him being able to defeat a captain.

Like I said, go and read/watch the manga/anime over again and actually pay attention to the scenarios at hand and how things develop, Ishida is hardly as great as you're attempting to make him out to be. And with that, I'm out.

Peace

 

[shadowriku]

Once again you ignored the facts. And refrain from saying I've thrown a fit simply because I left an argument that is based entirely on speculation. It seems you fail to see what everyone else has seen throughout the series. I'm tired of attempting at an actual discussion with somebody who is so set on being right that it clouds their judgement. It isn't my style.

As for Chad, maybe YOU should look at the manga a bit closer eh? Because Chad did indeed defeat the Privaron in speed and strength, but then again you can argue that all you want, I'm not the one ignoring a key fact.

Byakuya vs Ichigo yet again. I find it funny how you ignored the part of that argument that entailed Byakuya being nearly as fast as Yoruichi, a character who Ichigo has never even come close to surpassing in seed, even while in bankai. Ichigo is hardly as outright fast as Byakuya, just like how Ichigo is hardly as outright powerful as Kenpachi. How did he defeat these characters? He's the main character so its GONNA happen. After all, that's all anime is is a bunch of unlikely heros standing up and somehow pwning the masses. It was thanks only to the inner hollow that Ichigo was able to critically injure Byakuya, an act that then put them back on even ground in terms of speed. It would likely be the same still, even after Ichigo had learned to control, given the fact that...whether you like it or not, Byakuya IS THE SECOND FASTEST SHINIGAMI/Vizard ect SECONDED ONLY TO YORUICHI. Was that in big enough caps? Gotta make sure you don't ignore it again.

And just to quote a wonderful source here's some more for you

Flash Step Master: Byakuya is an probably best known for his usage in Flash steps. Although having been taught by but never beating "Goddess of Flash" Yoruichi Shihōin, he is still easily one of the most proficient users of this skill in all of Soul Society. One of Byakuya's favorite technique as described by Renji is Senka (閃花, Flash Blossom), a flash step combined with a spin to quickly move behind the enemy, followed by a strike aimed to destroying the Saketsu chain and the Hakusui soul sleep with a single thrust. Another technique taught to him by Yoruichi called Utsusemi (空蝉; cicada, referencing their molting) which allows Byakuya to move at great speed leaving an afterimage behind, though Byakuya states to Zommari that he prefers not to use it because Yoruichi Shihōin taught it to him.

All of that info gives us the wonderful message that Byakuya is indeed the fester shinigami, bested only by Yoruichi who WAS HIS TEACHER. But that doesn't matter right? I mean, you're just going to ignore it yet again like you've been doing to the majority of any text put down by others. My advice, go and actually pay attention to what you're attempting to argue.

Also, another flash back. Lets go and see how it was that Ishida managed to "beat" perhaps one of the weakest captains in all of Seireitei. Last I checked....Ishida had to go Quincy Final Form didn't he? Why, yes he did. Now ain't that a funny bit? Seeing as how he can't just go Quincy Final Form whenever he wants its not something to be thrown into an equation such as this. So you may wish to remove the bit about him being able to defeat a captain.

Like I said, go and read/watch the manga/anime over again and actually pay attention to the scenarios at hand and how things develop, Ishida is hardly as great as you're attempting to make him out to be. And with that, I'm out.

Peace

OOOO i was hoping you'd mention mayuri.
Regardless back to byakuya and ichigo, didn't i say Yoruichi straight DISSED Byakuya? If you can't remember when that was, think hard. I never avoided that part of the arguement. Thankfully you stated now that Byakuya is not faster then her, so i know your not blind, but what is your point with ichigo being the main character? Hell, we all know the main character comes out on top, but he did it with his own ability against Zaraki, and you seem to be ignoring the blows ichigo put on byakuya before his hollow took over. Remember, Byakuya NEVER got faster, a fact he stated himself when questioned by Ichigo. How did Byakuya get hit in the beginning then? Especially when he was using the part of his bankai that had the most defense? Simply Ichigo's bankai makes him faster the byakuya. I don't know how being faster then someone equates to you being hit by them, but apparently thats how it works in "Byakuya is flash step god" world. Once again, ichigo could not control his bankai, the only part of the fight that can be considered as Ichigo's 100% was the point before he started to think Byakuya got faster. This is not glorifying ichigo in anyway, this is simply comparing that to now, wherein Ichigo most likely can use his bankai just fine. We are considering the characters as being 100% no? Besides...as of now, since Byakuya got raped once before by the use of his hollow mask, Ichigo becoming a vaizard would euqate to instant rape against Byakuya. Comparing this to Ulquiorra who completely raped Ichigo in terms of speed... and once again Ishida who snuck up on him. Its like your ignoring everything thats going on now. And if you think Ulquiorra is slower then Byakuya god help you.

Chad again...where did you see move faster then that guy did? He did manage to catch him which deserves some recognition, but this was reflexes, nothing more. (Which was stated, Chapter before he got Diablo..260 maybe?) It still has nothing to do with actual movement speed, and the fact that ishida basically never needs to get close. How would Chad catch up?


Now since you state that Byakuya was taught by Yoruichi, that means Soifon should be about as fast right? I mean she WAS Yoruichi's right hand girl no? How about Urahara? He was reccomended by Yoruichi herself, and was her third seat. What about all of her division, who pride themselves in espionage...requiring speed? How about Mayuri, who was considered so dangerous he was placed in the Maggot's Nest? Someone who used to be with Urahara all the time while in the 12th division, stated by Urahara himself?

You have no grounds to say that Mayuri is the weakest, nor Byakuya is the fastest. If to ignore Mayuri and Urahara, how would Soifon be slower then Byakuya? She was taught by and was ALWAYS around the goddess of flash right? I'm not saying Mayuri is faster then Byakuya, im just saying your ignoring all of the other characters who are/were captain class and were IN Yoruichi's divison/connected to it, and were all high seats at that.

I'm not gonna talk about Ishida's final form cuz it has nothing to do with anything as of now, although i will state that the only reason he had to use it at all was because he was wasting energy trying to keep his body moving, which was caused by a blow Mayuri only accomplished by having someone latch on to Ishida 2 on 1. Cause ichigo and company would have done just fine against Mayuri after getting paralyzed by him. Hell, they would have

But, back to Mayuri himself, whose a perfect example of my point in this entire arguement. Lets say Mayuri was the weakest captain in all of Seretei. He would still beat basically every single captain in a fight. Why? Uncurable poison. None of our captains can come back to life right? Well they all lose by default. It dosen't matter how weak he is, just the fact that his bankai basically means automatic win. But of course, someone would certainly survive his constantly changing poison, which is basically surrounding him during the entire fight, plus a giant baby he will send to chase after you. You either try to attack from a range and have poison spit at you, or come close and die anyway. Who would know to move away from the current area in order to avoid poison? No one. By some chance someone gets range and attacks from far away? Stabs himself and lets the poison do its job. Is that fair...who cares? He wins.

Which brings back ishida...1200 arrows, enemy attack absorption, melee capability, high speed whether you like it or not, and potential trap placement. Its almost never about whose stronger, as you've stated with ichigo, but whose more equipped to win. And Ishida has WMD's.

 

[Kisamekiller]

OOOO i was hoping you'd mention mayuri.
Regardless back to byakuya and ichigo, didn't i say Yoruichi straight DISSED Byakuya? If you can't remember when that was, think hard. I never avoided that part of the arguement. Thankfully you stated now that Byakuya is not faster then her, so i know your not blind, but what is your point with ichigo being the main character? Hell, we all know the main character comes out on top, but he did it with his own ability against Zaraki, and you seem to be ignoring the blows ichigo put on byakuya before his hollow took over. Remember, Byakuya NEVER got faster, a fact he stated himself when questioned by Ichigo. How did Byakuya get hit in the beginning then? Especially when he was using the part of his bankai that had the most defense? Simply Ichigo's bankai makes him faster the byakuya. I don't know how being faster then someone equates to you being hit by them, but apparently thats how it works in "Byakuya is flash step god" world. Once again, ichigo could not control his bankai, the only part of the fight that can be considered as Ichigo's 100% was the point before he started to think Byakuya got faster. This is not glorifying ichigo in anyway, this is simply comparing that to now, wherein Ichigo most likely can use his bankai just fine. We are considering the characters as being 100% no? Besides...as of now, since Byakuya got raped once before by the use of his hollow mask, Ichigo becoming a vaizard would euqate to instant rape against Byakuya. Comparing this to Ulquiorra who completely raped Ichigo in terms of speed... and once again Ishida who snuck up on him. Its like your ignoring everything thats going on now. And if you think Ulquiorra is slower then Byakuya god help you.

Chad again...where did you see move faster then that guy did? He did manage to catch him which deserves some recognition, but this was reflexes, nothing more. (Which was stated, Chapter before he got Diablo..260 maybe?) It still has nothing to do with actual movement speed, and the fact that ishida basically never needs to get close. How would Chad catch up?


Now since you state that Byakuya was taught by Yoruichi, that means Soifon should be about as fast right? I mean she WAS Yoruichi's right hand girl no? How about Urahara? He was reccomended by Yoruichi herself, and was her third seat. What about all of her division, who pride themselves in espionage...requiring speed? How about Mayuri, who was considered so dangerous he was placed in the Maggot's Nest? Someone who used to be with Urahara all the time while in the 12th division, stated by Urahara himself?

You have no grounds to say that Mayuri is the weakest, nor Byakuya is the fastest. If to ignore Mayuri and Urahara, how would Soifon be slower then Byakuya? She was taught by and was ALWAYS around the goddess of flash right? I'm not saying Mayuri is faster then Byakuya, im just saying your ignoring all of the other characters who are/were captain class and were IN Yoruichi's divison/connected to it, and were all high seats at that.

I'm not gonna talk about Ishida's final form cuz it has nothing to do with anything as of now, although i will state that the only reason he had to use it at all was because he was wasting energy trying to keep his body moving, which was caused by a blow Mayuri only accomplished by having someone latch on to Ishida 2 on 1. Cause ichigo and company would have done just fine against Mayuri after getting paralyzed by him. Hell, they would have

But, back to Mayuri himself, whose a perfect example of my point in this entire arguement. Lets say Mayuri was the weakest captain in all of Seretei. He would still beat basically every single captain in a fight. Why? Uncurable poison. None of our captains can come back to life right? Well they all lose by default. It dosen't matter how weak he is, just the fact that his bankai basically means automatic win. But of course, someone would certainly survive his constantly changing poison, which is basically surrounding him during the entire fight, plus a giant baby he will send to chase after you. You either try to attack from a range and have poison spit at you, or come close and die anyway. Who would know to move away from the current area in order to avoid poison? No one. By some chance someone gets range and attacks from far away? Stabs himself and lets the poison do its job. Is that fair...who cares? He wins.

Which brings back ishida...1200 arrows, enemy attack absorption, melee capability, high speed whether you like it or not, and potential trap placement. Its almost never about whose stronger, as you've stated with ichigo, but whose more equipped to win. And Ishida has WMD's.

*sigh*

you really have completely disregarded everything said by everyone here. You've completely generalized the Byakuya + Yoruichi relationship without even acknowledging the Turn Back the Pendelum Arc and then the very small bits of information littering the entire series that explains just how fast Byakuya is. Whether you like it or not he is faster that Ichigo, just as he is faster than Ishida. Or did you happen to forget his ability to utilize After Image Clones? I think you did. Ichigo may be "fast" but he's hardly as fast as Byakuya. And if you understood something called insight and had some you'd know to look beyond the "What if" subject of if Ichigo's hollow hadn't taken over for that split second and injured Byakuya to the point of rendering his shunpo impossible to utilize. At the point at which Ichigo was failing the battle he was at his limit, whereas Byakuya still had many different options to utilize, including a full range of shunpo tactics and a full other stage of his bankai.

And Ichigo's bankai is still no better, he still experiences the wear and tear effects of it as we've seen in every fight, the most recent being with Grimmjow. And honestly, I don't think that Byakuya, Ichigo or any other characters except perhaps the top four captains being Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana and Yamamoto would be able to surpass Ulquiorra in speed. Whether you like it or not, the facts are still there, try paying attention to them, and be happy we aren't speaking IRL because I'd probably sit you down and make you read/watch the manga all over again so that your obviously tunnel set vision would be expanded on the situation.

Bottom line- Byakuya is faster than Ichigo and Ishida. I'm not arguing it further because your stand point is like that of an extremist, if you're told your wrong you throw everything you can lay your hands on until the enemy submits. A pity for you that I'm not the kind to back down until ACTUAL LOGIC has been shown. All of the evidence points to Byakuya being the faster and more skilled combatant. I would believe that things would be in his favor if he and vizard Ichigo fought again, given the mountain of evidence that shows his superior skill and speed.

Chad's reflexes- Oh snap, well here's something funny, because it almost sounds like a hypocritical statement from somebody who essentially said that if a character says something don't believe it. Because I now seem to recall you just saying that Chad's "reflexes" took effect AS STATED. Stating requires another character saying it, unless Kubo left a note saying "Oh btw, Chad didn't get faster, its just his reflexes that got better so nye nye you all fail." Which I don't recall ever reading in the manga. And in case you didn't know, which I'm guessing you didn't, you have to have speed to support your reflexes, they stand hand-in-hand, whether you like it or not. Perhaps Chad isn't "faster" than Ishida, but her certainly holds the "reflexes", strength, and powers to defeat him.

Now for Mayuri who you've labeled as an Insta-win bankai. Wow, you need to observe what his bankai is, there's more than plenty of ways to in fact bypass the poisons he uses in combat. Wind, overwhelming flames to dissipate it, waves to wash them away, ice to freeze the molecules, ect ect. If you look at it from a truly analytical stand point there are many ways to bypass the seemingly overwhelming bankai he wields. As for the baby, its essentially another Zabimaru, its large and easy to read, allowing for one with superior speed to bypass the baby itself, overwhelm the poison with a massive elemental blast of some sorts to actually destroy, dissipate, nullify ect.

Now, as for your final statement. I will actually agree, that out of the many characters he is perhaps the most prepared, but be careful not to over glorify his "abilities". Seele Schneider only works on something with a solid mass that allows him to make contact with. The arrows aren't overly powerful either, instead they utilize an overwhelming number to HOPEFULLY injure his enemy. And his speed is impressive on normal standards, but is not one to be compared to against captains or high level Espada. But then again so are many other characters able to adapt to their surroundings thanks to their natural abilities or insight.

Now as for another thing that's been bugging me. You seem to love using Ishida's "ability" to sneak up on people as an example of his speed. The act of sneaking has NOTHING, hear that, N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with speed, it simply entails the ability to conceal one's reaitsu to the point that allows them to close the distance with their enemy. And considering that there were very large masses of reiatsu flying all over the place nobody would notice some little Quincy who's hiding his reiatsu. So yes, I HAVE been paying attention to what's been going on, and with a close eye even, that way I'm able to stand my ground against biased, fanboy opinions that have expressed themselves here. So go ahead and throw your broken record reply in my direction, I'll just keep countering it with every ounce of logic surrounding us that shows others the truth. You won't convince me, so stop bothering, however I'll make sure to do my part in keeping a biased view from polluting the minds of others.

 

[shadowriku]

*sigh*

you really have completely disregarded everything said by everyone here. You've completely generalized the Byakuya + Yoruichi relationship without even acknowledging the Turn Back the Pendelum Arc and then the very small bits of information littering the entire series that explains just how fast Byakuya is. Whether you like it or not he is faster that Ichigo, just as he is faster than Ishida. Or did you happen to forget his ability to utilize After Image Clones? I think you did. Ichigo may be "fast" but he's hardly as fast as Byakuya. And if you understood something called insight and had some you'd know to look beyond the "What if" subject of if Ichigo's hollow hadn't taken over for that split second and injured Byakuya to the point of rendering his shunpo impossible to utilize. At the point at which Ichigo was failing the battle he was at his limit, whereas Byakuya still had many different options to utilize, including a full range of shunpo tactics and a full other stage of his bankai.

And Ichigo's bankai is still no better, he still experiences the wear and tear effects of it as we've seen in every fight, the most recent being with Grimmjow. And honestly, I don't think that Byakuya, Ichigo or any other characters except perhaps the top four captains being Shunsui, Ukitake, Unohana and Yamamoto would be able to surpass Ulquiorra in speed. Whether you like it or not, the facts are still there, try paying attention to them, and be happy we aren't speaking IRL because I'd probably sit you down and make you read/watch the manga all over again so that your obviously tunnel set vision would be expanded on the situation.

Bottom line- Byakuya is faster than Ichigo and Ishida. I'm not arguing it further because your stand point is like that of an extremist, if you're told your wrong you throw everything you can lay your hands on until the enemy submits. A pity for you that I'm not the kind to back down until ACTUAL LOGIC has been shown. All of the evidence points to Byakuya being the faster and more skilled combatant. I would believe that things would be in his favor if he and vizard Ichigo fought again, given the mountain of evidence that shows his superior skill and speed.

Chad's reflexes- Oh snap, well here's something funny, because it almost sounds like a hypocritical statement from somebody who essentially said that if a character says something don't believe it. Because I now seem to recall you just saying that Chad's "reflexes" took effect AS STATED. Stating requires another character saying it, unless Kubo left a note saying "Oh btw, Chad didn't get faster, its just his reflexes that got better so nye nye you all fail." Which I don't recall ever reading in the manga. And in case you didn't know, which I'm guessing you didn't, you have to have speed to support your reflexes, they stand hand-in-hand, whether you like it or not. Perhaps Chad isn't "faster" than Ishida, but her certainly holds the "reflexes", strength, and powers to defeat him.

Now for Mayuri who you've labeled as an Insta-win bankai. Wow, you need to observe what his bankai is, there's more than plenty of ways to in fact bypass the poisons he uses in combat. Wind, overwhelming flames to dissipate it, waves to wash them away, ice to freeze the molecules, ect ect. If you look at it from a truly analytical stand point there are many ways to bypass the seemingly overwhelming bankai he wields. As for the baby, its essentially another Zabimaru, its large and easy to read, allowing for one with superior speed to bypass the baby itself, overwhelm the poison with a massive elemental blast of some sorts to actually destroy, dissipate, nullify ect.

Now, as for your final statement. I will actually agree, that out of the many characters he is perhaps the most prepared, but be careful not to over glorify his "abilities". Seele Schneider only works on something with a solid mass that allows him to make contact with. The arrows aren't overly powerful either, instead they utilize an overwhelming number to HOPEFULLY injure his enemy. And his speed is impressive on normal standards, but is not one to be compared to against captains or high level Espada. But then again so are many other characters able to adapt to their surroundings thanks to their natural abilities or insight.

Now as for another thing that's been bugging me. You seem to love using Ishida's "ability" to sneak up on people as an example of his speed. The act of sneaking has NOTHING, hear that, N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with speed, it simply entails the ability to conceal one's reaitsu to the point that allows them to close the distance with their enemy. And considering that there were very large masses of reiatsu flying all over the place nobody would notice some little Quincy who's hiding his reiatsu. So yes, I HAVE been paying attention to what's been going on, and with a close eye even, that way I'm able to stand my ground against biased, fanboy opinions that have expressed themselves here. So go ahead and throw your broken record reply in my direction, I'll just keep countering it with every ounce of logic surrounding us that shows others the truth. You won't convince me, so stop bothering, however I'll make sure to do my part in keeping a biased view from polluting the minds of others.

Everything i saidabout Youruichi involved the pendulum arc. And you've been ignoring every small bit of information about ishida chad and by god Mayuri that it seems like you've been riding Byakuya's genitalia.

Wear and tear? Are you blind? He was surpressing his hollow! What the hell does that have to do with his bankai? Especially since he no longer needs to do as much?? At least you understand that Ulquiorra is faster then they are. But the fact that you think he could not sense someone sneaking up behind him conflicts with his overall ability. Either way, your point of Ishida hiding his reiatsu either means that you think
1. He's the only one who can do so.
2. That's all he does in general.
For the first one, thats a giant advantage in a fight. I shouldn't even have to explain why.
For the second, if everyone is capable of that, then NO ONE that is any good, say, Ulquiorra, should be caught from behind.

Explain to me something. If you could move out of the way of a bus flying at you, would you do it? Not to be a judge here, but in the case that you would do so, that would mean you are capable of doing as such.
How in whatever terrible-name-i-can't-come-up-with does Byakuya getting hit by ichigo before he turned into a hollow equate to him being vastly superior in speed? You completely ignored that point.

He got hit. Before he used senkei. Never got faster. Reread this as much as you like.
Ichigo went hollow. Byakuya could still use shunpo. Got pwnt from behind when he thought he got away. Equals vastly faster then hollow ichigo of course.

And we only know of these vast options because he was forced to use them right? Albeit because of hollow ichigo, but his speed and power, if not skill, now lies in ichigo. And THEN ichigo won by himself anyway.

Now i would never say that Byakuya is not vastly more skilled then ichigo, and he can most likely utilize his abilities way better then ichigo could ever hope to, but that dosen't change the fact that Ichigo is plain faster then Byakuya. He stopped being capable of it because he couldn't control his bankai. Honestly we can't use any example of him actually being better because he became a vaizard basically right after, but the times he's been using bankai (Grimmjow, privaron espada, Ulquiorra,) he did not seem to be going through the same problem.

As for Chad, your damn right about me having apparently conflicting views. My bad. But the main difference, for me at least, is that we have proof that other Espada may be very well much faster then Zommari, and Nnoitra's skin wasn't as awesome as he thought it was. We have nothing to say for chad since he was cut down as soon as he tried to take on Nnoitora.
Still, i've never seen anyone associate reflexes with running speed especially since the kind of "running" were talking about involves utilizing spiritual ability to move quickly. We have no proof that Chad is fast enough to handle our speedier characters, and I would think that instead of having that privaron say "His reflexes increased," he would have him say something along the lines of, "Sonido??? wtfux?" either before or after said beatdown.

As for Mayuri, man honestly a scientist that had his organs replaced with dummies,a man who changes the poison of his bankai after every single use, do you really think he wouldn't take the 5 minutes to add the equivalent of a real life highly concentrated anti freeze to raise the boiling point and lower the freezing point in relation to the liquid blood that becomes his poison gas? I mean those were good arguements but i seriously doubt he would let such a basic oversight such as slowing down the molecules or heating them up to the point of percipitation/=uselessness be failing points in his poison. That would be the most pathetic scientist...evar.

We also should consider his potential, which i'd love to bring up with ishida as well but theres no need as of now. Anyway Mayuri creating something like that superhuman drug...as well as the regenrative abilities he has on his body and capability to escape...who knows what else he could do? And yes, he has to have been able to create a dilluted version of the drug if he knows it takes...250 something thousand times in order to create one that can be used. I'm not saying he's using it, i'm just saying if he can make things like that...the guy has constant potential to comeback in a fight when he is basically vastly overpowered in terms of reiatsu and strength.

Thank you for taking the time to notice that, but honestly the majority of the characters use some solid form of reiatsu to attack. All espada use some type of cero, Ichigo obviously, renji's bone cannon, Chad's entire fighting style utilizes these types of moves, Rukia's Hakuren is a most likely kind of thing, senbonzakura, swords in senkei, etc. And each and every character IS a solid mass...so he has quite a bit of options in using it. Not to mention placing a trap as an advantage...but this is something that is highly contexted in a battle where there was a break, the opponent also had a ranged fighting style, pre-preparation etc. It's still something to be considered i think.
(I would like to say now that i honestly think Ishida would lose in a fight against byakuya, at least as of right now. His advantages are worth nothing against Byakuya, i know that much.)

As for the arrows, we all know they are not incredibly powerful, that still dosen't mean that one of them, well placed,wouldn't kill you. Either way thats not really important, either way no one wants to get hit by those arrows. Ulquiorra wouldn't take the time to break one if it would have bouned off of his body harmlessly. We could say their not giant masses of spiritual energy individually... but each one is still significantly sharp enough to pierce an opponent.

And like i said before, hiding his reiatsu is either an advantage, showing that even Ulquiorra class opponents can't sense him regardless of what they are currently doing,(i mean he was standing still at the moment. Come on.) or he is just playing fast. And of course sneaking up on his opponents has to do with speed...you have to be fast enough to do it don't you? I still think Ishida is on some Sonic the Hedgehog status but i'm fine with considering him being sneaky. Fits perfectly with constant retreat and arrows/pulling out a chainsaw to make the opponent think twice about getting close.

And if this was real life we probably still wouldn't get anywhere regardless.
anyyyyyyyyyyyyhow
I will keep trying to convince you as of otherwise, although like you said this is most likely impossible. But i'm having fun anyway.

 

[Kisamekiller]

Everything i saidabout Youruichi involved the pendulum arc. And you've been ignoring every small bit of information about ishida chad and by god Mayuri that it seems like you've been riding Byakuya's genitalia.

Wear and tear? Are you blind? He was surpressing his hollow! What the hell does that have to do with his bankai? Especially since he no longer needs to do as much?? At least you understand that Ulquiorra is faster then they are. But the fact that you think he could not sense someone sneaking up behind him conflicts with his overall ability. Either way, your point of Ishida hiding his reiatsu either means that you think
1. He's the only one who can do so.
2. That's all he does in general.
For the first one, thats a giant advantage in a fight. I shouldn't even have to explain why.
For the second, if everyone is capable of that, then NO ONE that is any good, say, Ulquiorra, should be caught from behind.

Explain to me something. If you could move out of the way of a bus flying at you, would you do it? Not to be a judge here, but in the case that you would do so, that would mean you are capable of doing as such.
How in whatever terrible-name-i-can't-come-up-with does Byakuya getting hit by ichigo before he turned into a hollow equate to him being vastly superior in speed? You completely ignored that point.

He got hit. Before he used senkei. Never got faster. Reread this as much as you like.
Ichigo went hollow. Byakuya could still use shunpo. Got pwnt from behind when he thought he got away. Equals vastly faster then hollow ichigo of course.

And we only know of these vast options because he was forced to use them right? Albeit because of hollow ichigo, but his speed and power, if not skill, now lies in ichigo. And THEN ichigo won by himself anyway.

Now i would never say that Byakuya is not vastly more skilled then ichigo, and he can most likely utilize his abilities way better then ichigo could ever hope to, but that dosen't change the fact that Ichigo is plain faster then Byakuya. He stopped being capable of it because he couldn't control his bankai. Honestly we can't use any example of him actually being better because he became a vaizard basically right after, but the times he's been using bankai (Grimmjow, privaron espada, Ulquiorra,) he did not seem to be going through the same problem.

As for Chad, your damn right about me having apparently conflicting views. My bad. But the main difference, for me at least, is that we have proof that other Espada may be very well much faster then Zommari, and Nnoitra's skin wasn't as awesome as he thought it was. We have nothing to say for chad since he was cut down as soon as he tried to take on Nnoitora.
Still, i've never seen anyone associate reflexes with running speed especially since the kind of "running" were talking about involves utilizing spiritual ability to move quickly. We have no proof that Chad is fast enough to handle our speedier characters, and I would think that instead of having that privaron say "His reflexes increased," he would have him say something along the lines of, "Sonido??? wtfux?" either before or after said beatdown.

As for Mayuri, man honestly a scientist that had his organs replaced with dummies,a man who changes the poison of his bankai after every single use, do you really think he wouldn't take the 5 minutes to add the equivalent of a real life highly concentrated anti freeze to raise the boiling point and lower the freezing point in relation to the liquid blood that becomes his poison gas? I mean those were good arguements but i seriously doubt he would let such a basic oversight such as slowing down the molecules or heating them up to the point of percipitation/=uselessness be failing points in his poison. That would be the most pathetic scientist...evar.

We also should consider his potential, which i'd love to bring up with ishida as well but theres no need as of now. Anyway Mayuri creating something like that superhuman drug...as well as the regenrative abilities he has on his body and capability to escape...who knows what else he could do? And yes, he has to have been able to create a dilluted version of the drug if he knows it takes...250 something thousand times in order to create one that can be used. I'm not saying he's using it, i'm just saying if he can make things like that...the guy has constant potential to comeback in a fight when he is basically vastly overpowered in terms of reiatsu and strength.

Thank you for taking the time to notice that, but honestly the majority of the characters use some solid form of reiatsu to attack. All espada use some type of cero, Ichigo obviously, renji's bone cannon, Chad's entire fighting style utilizes these types of moves, Rukia's Hakuren is a most likely kind of thing, senbonzakura, swords in senkei, etc. And each and every character IS a solid mass...so he has quite a bit of options in using it. Not to mention placing a trap as an advantage...but this is something that is highly contexted in a battle where there was a break, the opponent also had a ranged fighting style, pre-preparation etc. It's still something to be considered i think.
(I would like to say now that i honestly think Ishida would lose in a fight against byakuya, at least as of right now. His advantages are worth nothing against Byakuya, i know that much.)

As for the arrows, we all know they are not incredibly powerful, that still dosen't mean that one of them, well placed,wouldn't kill you. Either way thats not really important, either way no one wants to get hit by those arrows. Ulquiorra wouldn't take the time to break one if it would have bouned off of his body harmlessly. We could say their not giant masses of spiritual energy individually... but each one is still significantly sharp enough to pierce an opponent.

And like i said before, hiding his reiatsu is either an advantage, showing that even Ulquiorra class opponents can't sense him regardless of what they are currently doing,(i mean he was standing still at the moment. Come on.) or he is just playing fast. And of course sneaking up on his opponents has to do with speed...you have to be fast enough to do it don't you? I still think Ishida is on some Sonic the Hedgehog status but i'm fine with considering him being sneaky. Fits perfectly with constant retreat and arrows/pulling out a chainsaw to make the opponent think twice about getting close.

And if this was real life we probably still wouldn't get anywhere regardless.
anyyyyyyyyyyyyhow
I will keep trying to convince you as of otherwise, although like you said this is most likely impossible. But i'm having fun anyway.

Broken record anyone? You've said the exact same things, time after time, yet each time they're countered and you keep on repeating them. Ichigo DOES still experience wear and tear effects. And yes, his hollow is included in that, along with the massive amounts of reiatsu included to just maintain it, he's almost exactly like Toshiro in the terms of time limit and inexperience, the only thing different is that he doesn't have pretty ice flowers to act as his countdown.

And yes, Byakuya did get hit BEFORE the hollow. However, none of the endures injuries were worth note, given the fact that he was able to shrug them off and keep fighting like it was nothing, while Ichigo just kept getting slower. THE ONLY POINT AT WHICH ICHIGO'S SPEED EXCEEDED BYAKUYA WAS WHEN HIS HOLLOW APPEARED AND GRIEVOUSLY INJURED BYAKUYA WITH A BLACK GETSUGA TENSHOU COUPLED WITH AN UPFRONT CHARGE. TWO THINGS THAT ARE FAR MORE POWERFUL WHEN HICHIGO IS IN CONTROL.

Got that right? Just gotta make sure. And feel free to keep hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall here, I won't ever crumble.

As for Mayuri, hell, you just made it easier. Indeed, he could make his poison an anti-freeze equivalent or raise the boiling point. However, that hardly gets rid of it. You say any decent scientist would know this? Well here's a fun thing for ice zanpakuto and a decent scientist.

Each presented Ice-type zanpakuto is able to freeze the moisture, gasses, and solid forms in an instant, without even a thousandth of a second delay. It just happens. As any scientist knows, that degree of freeze only occurs in a total vacuum, aka ABSOLUTE ZERO.

Now for fire types, you do realize, that to produce the massive amounts of flame that these zanpakuto have done so much that it would force rock to melt would place them at a few thousand degrees Fahrenheit right? Raise the boiling point all you want, you walk into the middle of the sun and you will go bye bye.

I do love that you disregarded the dispersal idea though, just shows that you're continuing to NOT pay attention to the actual message and points I'm presenting.

Now for Ishida vs Ulquiorra and his arrow. Have you observed the fighting style that is Ulquiorra? Everything he utilizes is to instill true despair in the heart of his opponent. In otherwords, its about a 100/1 chance that he deflected it for the simple point of instilling despair within Ishida. If I were in his boat I would have done the same, given that he deflected it with his wing, which would represent the most vulnerable part of his body. That's like taking a sharp sword to a piece of paper and the sword ends up bending. You have a major "WTF!?" moment.

Anymore easily shot down arguments or supposed points? Because I'm getting tired and will have to run for more coffee if you decide to keep up the mindless debate.

 

[Kagutsuchi]

man boring thread !! ... long replies !!

 

[roflcopter]

Lol yeah and ishida sucks. He's no match to Byakya and his Bankai.

 

[roflcopter]

well.......you should think b4 you reply.........as ishida has defeated a captain long b4 coming to HM.........he is in all likelyhood at or just below captain class.......not becuz of reitsu but becuz of cunning and battle experience............

he will look like this

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

1) Yeah and then lost all his powers,it's actually a suicide move if there is anyone else near as an opponent lol. And that was a gay move by Kubo to let some uber-gay-Quincy move to defeat a non-injured captain's BANKAI (at full power) SO that doesnt count.. If he does it one more time( and i hope he does) then some fraccion's gonna pwn em hard)

2) Battle experience? which battle experience were u talking about ? Like 8 fights? Is it a batle experience? Ithink captains have got MUCH MORE battle experience which is just uncomparable with Ishida's if you want it this way...