but of course you wouldnt mention it. hiruzen was said to have this spuerlative strength, doesnt even mean its true. perfect susanoo was said to kill everyone who saw it. but that wasnt even true either.
but of course you wouldnt mention it. hiruzen was said to have this spuerlative strength, doesnt even mean its true. perfect susanoo was said to kill everyone who saw it. but that wasnt even true either.
doesnt even matter how you want to accept it, because he was only said to have this strength. that means its only rumors, it aint even likely to be legit, because we saw that when the same thing was said about perfect susanoo it ended up not being true. read the manga its so obvious who the strongest is. all hiruzen has done is seal two puppets who were toying with him. even then he died and orochimaru lived.
Countering hype with hype. Hashirama and his brother were also said to be the best shinobi
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Or they could have been in the village as well. Like I said even Tsunade, Hashirama's own grand daughter, was suprised by how strong Hashirama actually was. Now if even his own grand daughter doesnt know his true potential, do you think the other people who arent even related to Hashirama or seen him before will know any better?
@Bold Well yes, obviously since there's a minority....Also, you add more to my point. If Tsunade who was his granddaughter and from the same village didn't believe, it's logical to believe that outsiders who had no relation to him at all believed? There's a reason that people who who heard the "legends" believed. Hiruzen was around during the era of both his senseis, Hashirama died in the same war Hiruzen fought in, and was even around for the second war. Which honestly doesn't seem like he participate much in. And this is prime Hiruzen and Tsunade prior to the second ninja war.
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Logically, it should be clear he wasn't named the strongest hokage while sitting on the bench. But most likely sometime during the first and possibly second war. Where the life of Hashirama would still be fresh on the village's mind, but Tsunade still very young. Iruka's words "It was said" further concretes that it was said sometime ago, not recently. further legitimatizing his statement.
Tsunade's attitude toward her father also gives explanation when added to how young she was.
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In the end, Kabuto's statement is simply nowhere near enough to discredit Hiruzen's hype.
The fact that Hiruzen accepts the title after being taught by them both, automatically upholds Iruka's words. It's assumption that Hiruzen himself didn't believe, especially when there's reason to believe he had info on them both.
doesnt even matter how you want to accept it, because he was only said to have this strength. that means its only rumors, it aint even likely to be legit, because we saw that when the same thing was said about perfect susanoo it ended up not being true. read the manga its so obvious who the strongest is. all hiruzen has done is seal two puppets who were toying with him. even then he died and orochimaru lived.
You do know the only reason Hiruzen lost to Oro was because of his age right?.
A databook scan says that if Hiruzen was only 10years younger (still not his prime btw), The out come on that fight with Oro might of been different.
Ones hype does not diminish or discredit the hype of another. Hashi clearly had beast moves but his edo version, that was not limited by chakra or death, failed to beat Hiruzen.
The scaling of power between part 1 and 2 is a necessary part of continuing the story but it just means that if the 3rd Hokage was in part 2, he would have his power scaled up the same amount as everyone else.
He was clearly recognised as the strongest Hokage to have lived. So unless you're implying Hashi was a zombie during his time as Hokage, Hiruzen was stronger.
Ones hype does not diminish or discredit the hype of another. Hashi clearly had beast moves but his edo version, that was not limited by chakra or death, failed to beat Hiruzen.
The scaling of power between part 1 and 2 is a necessary part of continuing the story but it just means that if the 3rd Hokage was in part 2, he would have his power scaled up the same amount as everyone else.
He was clearly recognised as the strongest Hokage to have lived. So unless you're implying Hashi was a zombie during his time as Hokage, Hiruzen was stronger.
You can't really measure Edo Hashi's strength to the Real hashirama since he was being controlled by Oro and was only Toying with Hiruzen.
Even i know if Oro had been serious he would of most likely of stomped Old Hiruzen quite easily since he was stated to be in a "miserable state" compared to how he normally fights, Both Oro and Enma pointed this out.
@Bold Well yes, obviously since there's a minority....Also, you add more to my point. If Tsunade who was his granddaughter and from the same village didn't believe, it's logical to believe that outsiders who had no relation to him at all believed? There's a reason that people who who heard the "legends" believed. Hiruzen was around during the era of both his senseis, Hashirama died in the same war Hiruzen fought in, and was even around for the second war. Which honestly doesn't seem like he participate much in. And this is prime Hiruzen and Tsunade prior to the second ninja war.
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Logically, it should be clear he wasn't named the strongest hokage while sitting on the bench. But most likely sometime during the first and possibly second war. Where the life of Hashirama would still be fresh on the village's mind, but Tsunade still very young. Iruka's words "It was said" further concretes that it was said sometime ago, not recently. further legitimatizing his statement.
Tsunade's attitude toward her father also gives explanation when added to how young she was.
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In the end, Kabuto's statement is simply nowhere near enough to discredit Hiruzen's hype.
The fact that Hiruzen accepts the title after being taught by them both, automatically upholds Iruka's words. It's assumption that Hiruzen himself didn't believe, especially when there's reason to believe he had info on them both.
Yea nice try. Dont try and twist the meaning. The majority of people who heard of his power didnt believe. That includes people from his own village.There's nothing there that suggests it was only a minority from his village. Infact Tsunade not knowing proves that even people from his own village were unaware of his true power.
And Iruka's words "it is said" simply means it was an opinion not concrete. That opinion was most likely held by the younger generation who believed Hashirama strenght to be a mere legend.
"Don't speak in the past tense" Also adds more to my point that it was said sometime ago. No insults, but just in case you don't see where I'm headed, I'm arguing that the ones who said he was strongest hokage are the ones whoo would have the most knowledge about the other hokages, being closer to his era, and is not even apart of the "Many who heard".
if hashi fought hiruzen in his prime wouldnt that mean hashi was sorta old :/ he wouldnt be at his prime either prime hiruzen vs prime hashi would be a no challenge just saying
@Exaar - True but real Hashi didn't face Hiruzen.
I think that assuming Oro wasn't serious is foolish; just because it is in Oro's nature to toy with his prey does not mean he was not serious. He wanted the 3rd dead and Konoha crushed and as such he used edo summons and the edo's were sealed.
A miserable excuse for Hiruzen was able to accomplish so much at such an old age.
The fact is even Oro was unable to just stomp an old age Hiruzen, even though he used edo 1st and 2nd.
"Don't speak in the past tense" Also adds more to my point that it was said sometime ago. No insults, but just in case you don't see where I'm headed, I'm arguing that the ones who said he was strongest hokage are the ones whoo would have the most knowledge about the other hokages, being closer to his era, and is not even apart of the "Many who heard".
And like I said theres no evidence of that. "It was said" simply means its an opinion or rumour some time ago. That time is most likely Hiruzen's prime, which would be a maybe a decade or more ago.
Now you have to consider the fact not everyone who was alive would witness Hashirama's true power first hand. Just like not everyone has seen Kakashi's kamui or Madara's PS.
Therefore the many people who regarded Hashirama's strenght as a fairy tale can be anyone who was alive during Hashirama's time but didnt see Hashirama fight to the younger generations who only have stories to go by.
Hashirama is basically GOD in the Naruto Universe. He could control all the tailed beasts, could create the tree and flower worlds, had mokuton, his medical technique was so advanced that he could heal himself without hand signatures, was a senju, a direct descendant of the SO6P's 2nd son with insane chakara and physical energy and beat Madara who is currently demonstrating extreme levels of power. Yet you still question his superiority to the rest of the kages?
And like I said theres no evidence of that. "It is said" simply means its an opinion or rumour. Nothing more. It doesnt in any way describe the demographic of people that statement relates to.
"Many who heard" does though. It means those who regarded Hashirama's strenght as a fairy tale were those who were told. That means anyone from the Hashirama's generation who never saw Hashirama fight for themselves(including his own grand daugher Tsunade) to the younger generation who would have only heard of Hashirama through stories.
No. "It was said". Meaning people of past times, which is strengthened by Hiruzen's statement. And the "many doubt his power was as strong as legends say" could very easily not include Hashirama's generation. -_- Especially since was doing constant battle with his clan against other clans (meaning a hell of a lot of people got to witness this power) and one of his greatest battles was witnessed by Mito.
And what you fail to understand is that there' no concrete evidence that say otherwise. This logic you're using was only an assumption to begin with, even more so when there's a few holes in it. As it stands, it was said that he's strongest hokage, can you prove beyond a doubt that it wasn't legitimate?
No. "It was said". Meaning people of past times, which is strengthened by Hiruzen's statement. And the "many doubt his power was as strong as legends say" could very easily not include Hashirama's generation. -_- Especially since was doing constant battle with his clan against other clans (meaning a hell of a lot of people got to witness this power) and one of his greatest battles was witnessed by Mito.
And what you fail to understand is that there' no concrete evidence that say otherwise. This logic you're using was only an assumption to begin with, even more so when there's a few holes in it. As it stands, it was said that he's strongest hokage, can you prove beyond a doubt that it wasn't legitimate?
It was said could be yesterday or the day before or a year. Seeing as it is talking about Hiruzen being the strongest, it's most likely at the time Hiruzen was at his best or prime, which according to the manga was about a decade ago. That's still far from Hashirama's generation.
It was said could be yesterday or the day before or a year. Seeing as it is talking about Hiruzen being the strongest, it's most likely at the time Hiruzen was at his best or prime, which according to the manga was about a decade ago. That's still far from Hashirama's generation.
@Bold Exactly.. anyways, it's highly arguable that Hiruzen was at his best nearly 3 decades ago, or even 3 decades and some change. And now we're right around that area. Kabuto's statement is just too vague. There's nothing solid tying the "many didn't believe" to the ones who said he was strongest. And even then, it's even more assumption (Especially since the majority is spread across all villages, and is not restricted to konoha) that none of those people believed in Hashirama's power. And even more, how would Kabuto even know that people who are dead and gone didn't believe? His statements is obviously based on what he heard, there's no way he could account for every single shinobi that has lived and died. Not saying that the majority didn't doubt, but from generation to generation, it would be hard to get an absolute accurate number of those who believed and didn't.
Hashirama and his clan respected and feared by every other shinobi clan as being the best (I mean, look at the sweat drops on Madara's face):
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Madara achieved EMS and became Uchiha clan leader, but still had to work his way up fighting the Senju until he eventually got to fight Hashirama:
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The battle between Hashirama and Madara was fated, so will the battle between Naruto and Sasuke be:
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Sarutobi clan aiding against the Juubi, yet Hiruzen is never mentioned:
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I really don't see how the best of the Senju Clan, the superior clan out of the two main clans of Naruto, who was respected and feared by every other shinobi clan as being the best, would be inferior to one who was apparently loved but was never even mentioned more than three times post-death.
I really don't see how the best of the Senju Clan, the superior clan out of the two main clans of Naruto, who was respected and feared by every other shinobi clan as being the best, would be inferior to one who was apparently loved but was never even mentioned more than three times post-death.[/SIZE]
The uzumaki clan was also feared among other shinobi..
But do you notice how the sarutobi clan is in the war helping defeat the juubi, but the senju clan is no where to be found.. Its most likely because they all died out (except tsunade)..
Settle down child, I won't give you anything but manga pages. If you come out not being able to infer that, at this point in the story, Hashirama's supremacy over the other Hokage is intentional on Kishimoto's part then, meh.
Shouldn't this pretty much settle the debate? I mean Madara himself says only Hashirama was the only one who could beat him and Madara just curb-stomped the 5 Kages. Also didn't Kabuto say something along the lines that by not making the edo revives mindless they kept their personalities and strategies, while making them mindless limits them to what the edo tensei user knows?
