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It's been quite some time since I've made one of these. The guidelines to my thread are listed below. I also will put a summary below for the time restrained people. I won't post a whole lot of manga pages about hashirama due to him being one of the most well known characters and for the sake of time. Flower Power=Hashirama's pollen flowers
Also big thanks to these users for assisting me in my thread.
Shodaime Swagkage
Rin Chan
Gatsuuga
Markdabomb22
TheGreatUchiha
TruePAIN
Snake Orochimaru
Ace of the Fire Fist
And everyone who makes Tobirama threads.
1-Tobirama does use Edo tensei except it is limited to two "shinobi" I say this because Orochimaru had the capability to use 3 and Tobirama's was not perfected thus its downgraded. the edo's can only use ninja weapons (like explosive tags, kunai, shurriken as no specified shinobi have been stated to of been revived by Tobirama. Kumo and Iwa both recognize his prowess with it though. All shinobi can use ninja weapons efficiently though so having a random edo tensei use Kunai isn't an over statement.
2-I asked the NB community if they would agree with me if Tobirama could cut things with his water release. There wasn't a single person who disagreed with me, and I believe the reasoning is that someone who has mastered an elemental affinity should be able to utilize it in every way. Take Hiruzen, he was stated to of mastered every elemental release, yet only showcased fire and earth style. Point being even naruto who hasn't mastered Fuuton can cut things I see no reason why the undisputed king of Suiton cannot when a toad who isn't a master can.
3-As usual all manga pages are posted in spoilers for your convenience and everything in bold is important. So lets get down to business.
Hashirama and Tobirama were the best ninja from their respective generation.
Hashirama is renowned for his Wood release which granted him the ability to heal, tame Bijuu, Create Konoha, flower power, and change the landscape. He also knew earth and water style, as well as formidable genjutsu. Along with those skills he had a scroll which contained deadly kinjutsu as well as immense stamina being a senju.
Tobirama is the undisputed king of Suiton. He is able to create water from nothing even if he is surrounded by poweful fire style
and use the most complex water style jutsu with only one hand seal.
No ninja in the last 493 chapters has ever surpassed Tobirama's feats in water style.
Now for the main topic everyone is here for. Let's say Hashirama and Tobirama get in a fight. 99.9% of people myself included prior to making this thread would say Hashirama would win. Here is why I believe at the very least it would be a stalemate if not Tobirama winning.
NINJUTSU
1-Hashirama's wood release is unable to do much due to water style's ability to slice through objects.
Read on for a more in depth explanation
2-Hashirama has flower power. Suiton is the perfect counter for this along with Katon. Lets say Hashirama uses Flower power against Tobirama. In order for pollen to spread it must not be wet. Never in the entire span of this universe has pollen or dust spread in damp conditions. Like paper it will not float if it is dampened. Tobirama's Suiton Dragon has been shown drench an area completely with water.
Needless to say if the flowers get damp let alone wet the pollen cannot spread thus the technique is nullified quite easily. Originally I was going to have Edo's use ninja weapons to cut them away or explode them but that only spreads pollen.
3-The big one! Mokuton Nativity of the tree's. This attack is incredible. No matter where the opponent is tree's can appear from underneath him, around him, anywhere where there's solid foundation. Tobirama's counter to this is suiton. In every instance that water was used for defence and offense, nothing has penetrated it. So let's say Tobirama uses Water barrier technique. That water style forms a barrier
and protects the user from attack. Now if the water was not in motion, wood would pierce it, but water in motion would make it stray or not even penetrate. Tobirama can even use Suiton dragon missile while the barrier is up
so he is not a sitting duck. Furthermore he does have a whole 2 Edo tensei with explosives and ninja weapons putting pressure on Hashirama.
4-Wood dragon. Another interesting topic. Wood dragon has been shown to be able to be crushed or split in half. Like I said earlier Suiton can do the same on a lesser scale to the kyuubi but its still the same. Furthermore Wood dragon blocks a bijuu's powers not a humans.
Wood dragon would also have trouble against Edo's as explosive tags/kunai's would blow parts of it up. Hashirama can always create another, however that would require more chakra and Not to mention it would be hard to control a dragon while have 2 Edo's + Tobirama slicing at you.
5-Wood prison and Wood wall also are subject to Suiton. Both can be pierced with concentrated water.
6-Earth style is the only counter to his water. While it would render Tobirama useless, he still has Edo Tensei's that can use explosive to blow the rocks apart. Hashirama does know earth style as well as water.
GENJUTSU
Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness Technique. This jutsu makes the entire area black. Tobirama is not rendered useless for 2 reasons.
1-Genjutsu only affects the opponents mind. So if Hashirama uses this technique against Tobirama he would have to use it against the Edo's which could release Tobirama and vice versa.
2-Tobirama can sense the presence and where his enemies are with just touching the ground.
Therefore this genjutsu is good against 1 on 1 but 1 vs 3 not so much. Even if Hashirama gets it off against all 3 opponents, Tobirama can still sense where Hashirama is and having control over the Edo's allows him to send them after him + he can use water style to attack him.
TAIJUTSU
Both have no feats with Taijutsu so I consider them equals in that right.
Stamina
I believe Hashirama would run out of Stamina for these reasons.
1-Wood release consumes lots of chakra, now Senju's have loads of chakra but you have to remember something. Tobirama is also a senju. Take yamato for example, he is not a senju, yet still uses wood release. He runs out of chakra quickly. That's proof enough that it consumes a lot of chakra to someone who it didn't originate from.
2-He would be under constant pressure from edo tensei's. That would cause him to use more chakra in attempt to keep them away.
Summary
While Hashirama and Tobirama can cancel out each out each other's jutsu's, I believe Hashirama would lose due to running out of stamina. Neither have stamina feats, but wood release consumes more chakra then water release not to mention that its 3v1.
Databook entries for Tobirama
This thread feels rushed but there's not a whole lot more information I can put on Tobirama. He hasn't really been spoken of that much.
Also big thanks to these users for assisting me in my thread.
Shodaime Swagkage
Rin Chan
Gatsuuga
Markdabomb22
TheGreatUchiha
TruePAIN
Snake Orochimaru
Ace of the Fire Fist
And everyone who makes Tobirama threads.
1-Tobirama does use Edo tensei except it is limited to two "shinobi" I say this because Orochimaru had the capability to use 3 and Tobirama's was not perfected thus its downgraded. the edo's can only use ninja weapons (like explosive tags, kunai, shurriken as no specified shinobi have been stated to of been revived by Tobirama. Kumo and Iwa both recognize his prowess with it though. All shinobi can use ninja weapons efficiently though so having a random edo tensei use Kunai isn't an over statement.
2-I asked the NB community if they would agree with me if Tobirama could cut things with his water release. There wasn't a single person who disagreed with me, and I believe the reasoning is that someone who has mastered an elemental affinity should be able to utilize it in every way. Take Hiruzen, he was stated to of mastered every elemental release, yet only showcased fire and earth style. Point being even naruto who hasn't mastered Fuuton can cut things I see no reason why the undisputed king of Suiton cannot when a toad who isn't a master can.
3-As usual all manga pages are posted in spoilers for your convenience and everything in bold is important. So lets get down to business.
Hashirama and Tobirama were the best ninja from their respective generation.
You must be registered for see images
Hashirama is renowned for his Wood release which granted him the ability to heal, tame Bijuu, Create Konoha, flower power, and change the landscape. He also knew earth and water style, as well as formidable genjutsu. Along with those skills he had a scroll which contained deadly kinjutsu as well as immense stamina being a senju.
Tobirama is the undisputed king of Suiton. He is able to create water from nothing even if he is surrounded by poweful fire style
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
Now for the main topic everyone is here for. Let's say Hashirama and Tobirama get in a fight. 99.9% of people myself included prior to making this thread would say Hashirama would win. Here is why I believe at the very least it would be a stalemate if not Tobirama winning.
NINJUTSU
1-Hashirama's wood release is unable to do much due to water style's ability to slice through objects.
You must be registered for see images
2-Hashirama has flower power. Suiton is the perfect counter for this along with Katon. Lets say Hashirama uses Flower power against Tobirama. In order for pollen to spread it must not be wet. Never in the entire span of this universe has pollen or dust spread in damp conditions. Like paper it will not float if it is dampened. Tobirama's Suiton Dragon has been shown drench an area completely with water.
You must be registered for see images
3-The big one! Mokuton Nativity of the tree's. This attack is incredible. No matter where the opponent is tree's can appear from underneath him, around him, anywhere where there's solid foundation. Tobirama's counter to this is suiton. In every instance that water was used for defence and offense, nothing has penetrated it. So let's say Tobirama uses Water barrier technique. That water style forms a barrier
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
4-Wood dragon. Another interesting topic. Wood dragon has been shown to be able to be crushed or split in half. Like I said earlier Suiton can do the same on a lesser scale to the kyuubi but its still the same. Furthermore Wood dragon blocks a bijuu's powers not a humans.
You must be registered for see images
5-Wood prison and Wood wall also are subject to Suiton. Both can be pierced with concentrated water.
6-Earth style is the only counter to his water. While it would render Tobirama useless, he still has Edo Tensei's that can use explosive to blow the rocks apart. Hashirama does know earth style as well as water.
GENJUTSU
Hashirama's Bringer of Darkness Technique. This jutsu makes the entire area black. Tobirama is not rendered useless for 2 reasons.
1-Genjutsu only affects the opponents mind. So if Hashirama uses this technique against Tobirama he would have to use it against the Edo's which could release Tobirama and vice versa.
2-Tobirama can sense the presence and where his enemies are with just touching the ground.
You must be registered for see images
TAIJUTSU
Both have no feats with Taijutsu so I consider them equals in that right.
Stamina
I believe Hashirama would run out of Stamina for these reasons.
1-Wood release consumes lots of chakra, now Senju's have loads of chakra but you have to remember something. Tobirama is also a senju. Take yamato for example, he is not a senju, yet still uses wood release. He runs out of chakra quickly. That's proof enough that it consumes a lot of chakra to someone who it didn't originate from.
2-He would be under constant pressure from edo tensei's. That would cause him to use more chakra in attempt to keep them away.
Summary
While Hashirama and Tobirama can cancel out each out each other's jutsu's, I believe Hashirama would lose due to running out of stamina. Neither have stamina feats, but wood release consumes more chakra then water release not to mention that its 3v1.
Databook entries for Tobirama
Nidaime Hokage (二代目火影, Second Fire Shadow)
Konoha, Hokage
It's been a while ...Saru*...
The Shodai Hokage's younger brother who laid the foundation stone of the present village through his tremendous leadership
The Nidaime is the Shodai's younger brother by blood, who inherited his brother's dying wish and was called "Hokage" after the Shodai died. He endeavoured in the founding of the Academy and the establishment of the village's organisational system. However, shortly thereafter the Shinobi World War broke out. He entrusted the wishes of the suppression of war and the prospering of the village to his successor and died a noble death.
←He was a superior ninjutsu user, being able to use Water Release without being near the waterside, among many other feats.
*Saru (サル, Monkey). The nickname the Nidaime used for the Sandaime, Sarutobi.
Konoha, Hokage
It's been a while ...Saru*...
The Shodai Hokage's younger brother who laid the foundation stone of the present village through his tremendous leadership
The Nidaime is the Shodai's younger brother by blood, who inherited his brother's dying wish and was called "Hokage" after the Shodai died. He endeavoured in the founding of the Academy and the establishment of the village's organisational system. However, shortly thereafter the Shinobi World War broke out. He entrusted the wishes of the suppression of war and the prospering of the village to his successor and died a noble death.
←He was a superior ninjutsu user, being able to use Water Release without being near the waterside, among many other feats.
*Saru (サル, Monkey). The nickname the Nidaime used for the Sandaime, Sarutobi.
Nidaime Hokage
Village: Konoha
Rank: Hokage
Ninja Registration Number: -
Birthday: ?
Age: ?
Height: 182.3cm
Weight: 70.5kg
Blood Type: -
Personality: Sturdy, Zealous
Quote: From tomorrow, you are...the Hokage...!!
(Note: He uses "kisama", which is a derogatory form of "you".)
Black: Wild fighting spirit! The raging firey man who inherited Shodai's will!
Shodai's younger brother, who greatly contributed to Konoha's establishment as a
system. In contrast to his calm older brother, his nature is to push forward
towards his objective with passion and enthusiasm. He is prideful of his
superior combat ability, and with the Suiton jutsu which he was especially
skilful at he was unexpectedly revived in the present to defeat Sandaime, which
put fear in the people of Konoha.
Picture: He entrusts the village's future to Sandaime, who he affectionately
calls "Saru", before he dies.
Village: Konoha
Rank: Hokage
Ninja Registration Number: -
Birthday: ?
Age: ?
Height: 182.3cm
Weight: 70.5kg
Blood Type: -
Personality: Sturdy, Zealous
Quote: From tomorrow, you are...the Hokage...!!
(Note: He uses "kisama", which is a derogatory form of "you".)
Black: Wild fighting spirit! The raging firey man who inherited Shodai's will!
Shodai's younger brother, who greatly contributed to Konoha's establishment as a
system. In contrast to his calm older brother, his nature is to push forward
towards his objective with passion and enthusiasm. He is prideful of his
superior combat ability, and with the Suiton jutsu which he was especially
skilful at he was unexpectedly revived in the present to defeat Sandaime, which
put fear in the people of Konoha.
Picture: He entrusts the village's future to Sandaime, who he affectionately
calls "Saru", before he dies.
Senju Tobirama
Main text
Raising Konoha, the seed planted by his brother into a thriving, large green tree: that was Tobirama's mission when he took over the name of Hokage. Among other things, Tobirama successively instigated a miltary police to protect order, an Academy (tn: kanji=Ninja School) to train and promote the young, and organized the Chuunin exams. He had the village's, Konoha's peace and stability at heart. In Konoha, the Senju brothers' sense of care for the village has become the Will of Fire, passed along even to this day.
Caption
-A bold leader; he'll grow the village's future into a luxuriant tree.
Picture comment
-Thanks to Tobirama's efforts, the Senju clan's voice in the village grew louder.
Main text
Raising Konoha, the seed planted by his brother into a thriving, large green tree: that was Tobirama's mission when he took over the name of Hokage. Among other things, Tobirama successively instigated a miltary police to protect order, an Academy (tn: kanji=Ninja School) to train and promote the young, and organized the Chuunin exams. He had the village's, Konoha's peace and stability at heart. In Konoha, the Senju brothers' sense of care for the village has become the Will of Fire, passed along even to this day.
Caption
-A bold leader; he'll grow the village's future into a luxuriant tree.
Picture comment
-Thanks to Tobirama's efforts, the Senju clan's voice in the village grew louder.
This thread feels rushed but there's not a whole lot more information I can put on Tobirama. He hasn't really been spoken of that much.
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