EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

[shelke]

No evidence supports that statement. Even an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o is likely more powerful defensively than a Complete Susano'o, but a Complete Susano'o HAS been damaged by singe Tsunade-strength punches:

Mini-Bijuudama are superior in destructive force to those, and there ARE three of them.

This isn't a complete sussano at all. This is what Madara's complete sussano looks like:

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. And it's a clone on top of that.

 

[shelke]

What can ps do to Naruto if he can tank a jubi laser? I made a thread on Naruto > Hashi as well, but he's got around all of the mokuton techniques used so far, neither Hashi or Madara are tanking a continuous biju dama.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that Juubi lacks the eight and nine tails, and the latter is the most powerful beast out of all the nine tailed beasts. So it tanking that beam is still hilarious because of its lack of the said beasts.

 

[Turson]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that Juubi lacks the eight and nine tails, and the latter is the most powerful beast out of all the nine tailed beasts. So it tanking that beam is still hilarious because of its lack of the said beasts.

Considering Juubis strenght, even if its incomplete (

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) its not hilarious at all. Actually, thats hell of a feat.

 

[shelke]

^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one. And it's lacking two top most powerful tailed beasts. I am sorry, what is your point?

 

[Piratefish]

This isn't a complete sussano at all. This is what Madara's complete sussano looks like:

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. And it's a clone on top of that.

That's an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o (which might actually be what a complete Susano'o IS, now I think about it). When is it stated that clone's Susano'o's are inferior, and by how much?

I notice you're not mentioning the relative levels of power of Tsunade's punches and Mini-Bijuudama?

^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one. And it's lacking two top most powerful tailed beasts. I am sorry, what is your point?

The Juubi is demonstrably superior to the Hachibi and Kyuubi WORKING TOGETHER. Why would you believe Perfect Susano'o would be superior to it in destroying the Kyuubi Cloak?

 

[Turson]

^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one. And it's lacking two top most powerful tailed beasts. I am sorry, what is your point?

That tanking that beam was hell of a feat.

^ A jubbi is just nine tailed beasts rolled into one.

And your own words are the reason why it was hell of a feat.

 

[shelke]

^ I still don't care, as THIS is what Madara's CS looks like:

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. Do you see any similarity? Clones are formed by evenly distributing chakra, hence no clone can be as powerful as the user itself. Go back to the chakra distribution chapters for the full explanations.

 

[shelke]

And your own words are the reason why it was hell of a feat.

The current Juubi lacks Hachibi/eight and Kurama/nine tails? I still don't get your point when the latter is the most powerful tailed beast if we are to take Juubi out of the equation?

 

[Turson]

The current Juubi lacks Hachibi/eight and Kurama/nine tails? I still don't get your point when the latter is the most powerful tailed beast if we are to take Juubi out of the equation?

I was just responding to your words, which said that Naruto taking that beam was hilarious. Well... nope, it wasnt. That inclomplete Juubi is most probably the second most powerful creature in history, inferior only to the original, complete Juubi.

 

[Piratefish]

There is a big difference between the two scenarios.

Naruto was stationary at the beginning and wasn't using any jutsu, then he rushed at the wood and hit with his attack.

If Naruto is running at Hashirama first like you say, Hashirama uses this and then Naruto either gets hit or jumps back to avoid it, and breaks it later, Mini Bijuu Dama isn't getting through that so colliding with it is not an option.

Naruto is running at Hashirama, so Hashi DOES NOT HAVE TIME FOR ANYTHING NOT CONNECTED TO HIS IMMEDIATE SURVIVAL. And that's not at all secure. Attacks are NOT what he'd be focusing on.

Hashirama has Mokuton clones so he can block Naruto from all 3 angles.

No time for making clones.

Mini Bijuu Dama is nowhere near a mountain buster, the damage it caused wasn't even that impressive, even 3 of those won't break Susanoo.

It's hard to say exactly how much damage it caused, and it certainly destroyed everything it hit. It's concentrated. It wouldn't HAVE to break Susano'o, only damage it so that LATER MBD waves can break it or allow a big BD through.

I
And Madara still block A's punch, he can very well summon Susanoo with a thought before Naruto gets him, if he can block A.

He only barely managed to block, which would have been pretty useless against a Mini-BD. I never said he couldn't summon Susano'o, but rather that INSTANT PS was beyond him. And I was using this as an example as to why HASHIRAMA would be pretty screwed. He can't summon an instant defense around his body (it's gound-based and has to grow around him and is NOT as fast as Susano'o) and he wouldn't be as capable of tracking high-speed linear movement as Madara, let alone from three directions at once.

Exactly, Bijuu Dama are mountain busters not Mini Bijuu Dama, and Chou Oodama Rasengan hollows out a mountain, different from a mountain buster. Unless you have some feats for Mini Bijuu Dama that show it is far stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, there is no reason to believe it can even harm Susanoo, when ribcage tanked a Chou Oodama Rasengan

Bijuudama OBLITERATE mountains, Mini-Bijuudama DAMAGE mountains. Like their effects on even a Perfect Susano'o, I'd imagine.

There is no evidence to believe it is stronger when all we saw Mini Bijuu Dama was break some rocks and cause a mediocre sized explosion.

And take out a BM clone. KM clones fight on par with strong Kages. Don't underestimate it.

Explosion size has little to do with explosion potency, at least in Naruto.

Even if it is stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, after factoring in the difference of power between Ribcage and PS, you can safely assume that Mini Bijuu Dama isn't going to cut it, the only thing Naruto has that can break PS is the full sized Bijuu Dama.

I'll "safetly assume" that while a Mini-Bijuudama won't DESTROY even an unstable PS, they WILL do damage. And nothing stops him from sending more and more and MORE waves of mini-BDs while the real version is charging a big one to OBLITERATE Madara's PS.

Naruto's BM Clones, mid attack aren't dodging this:

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and even if they do the shockwave will destroy them.

Madara can't make a stable Perfect Susano'o and have it attack IN TIME TO INTERRUPT BM NARUTO, what the HELL?

He only MIGHT be able to hit them if they're ready for a dodge. And the PS is so ridiculously obvious in its every motion. And there's three of them. ONE will survive, at least.

 

[Piratefish]

^ I still don't care, as THIS is what Madara's CS looks like:

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. Do you see any similarity? Clones are formed by evenly distributing chakra, hence no clone can be as powerful as the user itself. Go back to the chakra distribution chapters for the full explanations.

Oh, you don't care? Well THAT means you must win EVERY debate.

If a clone has enough chakra to use a technique, that technique is as powerful as if the original used it. Go back to Naruto's clones fighting multiple Kages for proof of that.

The current Juubi lacks Hachibi/eight and Kurama/nine tails? I still don't get your point when the latter is the most powerful tailed beast if we are to take Juubi out of the equation?

Is it not dominating the Hachibi AND the Kyuubi?

 

[KidGamer65]

Naruto is running at Hashirama, so Hashi DOES NOT HAVE TIME FOR ANYTHING NOT CONNECTED TO HIS IMMEDIATE SURVIVAL. And that's not at all secure. Attacks are NOT what he'd be focusing on.

IF he attacks him Naruto has to dodge or he will get hit, meaning Naruto doesn't hit him.

No time for making clones.

Lol, yes there is.

It's hard to say exactly how much damage it caused, and it certainly destroyed everything it hit. It's concentrated. It wouldn't HAVE to break Susano'o, only damage it so that LATER MBD waves can break it or allow a big BD through.

Mini Bijuu Dama will barely scratch PS.

He only barely managed to block, which would have been pretty useless against a Mini-BD. I never said he couldn't summon Susano'o, but rather that INSTANT PS was beyond him. And I was using this as an example as to why HASHIRAMA would be pretty screwed. He can't summon an instant defense around his body (it's gound-based and has to grow around him and is NOT as fast as Susano'o) and he wouldn't be as capable of tracking high-speed linear movement as Madara, let alone from three directions at once.

Instant unstabilized PS is not beyond him and I showed proof of that.

Hashirama has Mokuton+Mokuton clones...he doesn't need to defend when he can shoot an attack at the incoming Naruto.

Bijuudama OBLITERATE mountains, Mini-Bijuudama DAMAGE mountains. Like their effects on even a Perfect Susano'o, I'd imagine.

Mini Bijuu Dama doesn't have the feats to break or even damage a PS.

And take out a BM clone. KM clones fight on par with strong Kages. Don't underestimate it.

So what? Just because they fight with Kages, it doesn't mean that they can tank mountain slicing attacks, unless you have some durability feats for them that say otherwise.

Explosion size has little to do with explosion potency, at least in Naruto.

Ok..

I'll "safetly assume" that while a Mini-Bijuudama won't DESTROY even an unstable PS, they WILL do damage. And nothing stops him from sending more and more and MORE waves of mini-BDs while the real version is charging a big one to OBLITERATE Madara's PS

.
Nothing stops Madara from slicing Naruto clones up since those Mini Bijuu Dama won't even faze Perfect Susanoo.

Madara can't make a stable Perfect Susano'o and have it attack IN TIME TO INTERRUPT BM NARUTO, what the HELL?

He only MIGHT be able to hit them if they're ready for a dodge. And the PS is so ridiculously obvious in its every motion. And there's three of them. ONE will survive, at least.

After the first wave of attacks is blocked by unstabilized PS, stabilized PS comes out and slices them up, stop overrating Naruto mini BD cause it won't do shit to PS.

And no they won't survive, unless they can dodge this:

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WHILE they are already running towards Madara, which they can't..

 

[shelke]

Oh, you don't care? Well THAT means you must win EVERY debate.

If a clone has enough chakra to use a technique, that technique is as powerful as if the original used it. Go back to Naruto's clones fighting multiple Kages for proof of that.

No I don't care about things that make no sense. Now you are comparing Naruto KM and nine-tails mode clones to Madara's? Does that chakra distribution even APPLY to Naruto who is getting a vast amount of chakra from Kurama? And despite that, didn't his clone simply disappear when the technique was deflected in his face? Would that happen to Naruto as well? It means the clones cannot maintain a form if the damage exceeds a certain amount as they don't have any physical energy at all. This is how chakra distribution works for Bunshin clones:

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.

The more control the user has over the chakra, the less of it will be utilized for making a clone. Hence if about 5% used to make three clones, the user would have of his chakra intact. Who told you that clones are at the same level as the user? Even if the technique is Sussano clones or any complex, if all the clones are at the same chakra level, then how on earth were they destroyed as Madara is on an infinite chakra reserve? Also, the chakra built up for the technique and the actual usage is not the same.

The actual usage for a Bushin technique clones is about 30% only at a decent control level - it'll be reduced even more if the control is better - , leaving the user at 70% chakra reserve. If a technique is more complex it would probably use 40% maybe? Now divide this into 5 clones, how much is each clone on?

Is it not dominating the Hachibi AND the Kyuubi?

What are you getting at? The current Juubi lacks about 80% of its whole power, as it doesn't have two top tail beasts. End of story.

 

[Piratefish]

No I don't care about things that make no sense. Now you are comparing Naruto KM and nine-tails mode clones to Madara's? Does that chakra distribution even APPLY to Naruto who is getting a vast amount of chakra from Kurama? And despite that, didn't his clone simply disappear when the technique was deflected in his face? Would that happen to Naruto as well? It means the clones cannot maintain a form if the damage exceeds a certain amount as they don't have any physical energy at all. This is how chakra distribution works for Bunshin clones:

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.

Thank you for explaining this, while it is wholly unrelated to anything I said, it's useful knowledge.

The more control the user has over the chakra, the less of it will be utilized for making a clone. Hence if about 5% used to make three clones, the user would have of his chakra intact. Who told you that clones are at the same level as the user? Even if the technique is Sussano clones or any complex, if all the clones are at the same chakra level, then how on earth were they destroyed as Madara is on an infinite chakra reserve? Also, the chakra built up for the technique and the actual usage is not the same.

Thank you for explaining this, while it is wholly unrelated to anything I said, it's useful knowledge.

The actual usage for a Bushin technique clones is about 30% only at a decent control level - it'll be reduced even more if the control is better - , leaving the user at 70% chakra reserve. If a technique is more complex it would probably use 40% maybe? Now divide this into 5 clones, how much is each clone on?

Thank you for explaining this, while it is wholly unrelated to anything I said, it's useful knowledge.

I did not state that each clone was as powerful as their creator. I said THEY COULD USE TECHNIQUES ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THEIR CREATOR. Look at Naruto and the Rasengan for proof of that; both Naruto and clones posess equal amounts of concentration and control.

A clone, with enough chakra, can do anything its creator can except take damage.

What are you getting at? The current Juubi lacks about 80% of its whole power, as it doesn't have two top tail beasts. End of story.

Your statement makes no sense. You are ignoring both KinGin bros and the Hachibi's tentacle. Two times six tails worth of chakra is a significant fraction of the Kyuubi's power, and though the single tail might not be as significant, the Juubi definitely doesn't lack "80%" of its power.

Otherwise, why would it be able to DOMINATE THE HACHIBI AND KYUUBI?

According to you they represent, together, 80% of its power. THAT MEANS EACH OF THEM SHOULD BE ABLE TO OVERPOWER THE JUUBI BY ITSELF.

Here's a visual representation of how the Kyuubi stands in relation to the Juubi:

Spoiler

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Look at the Mini-Kyuubi.

Kurama is convinced the Juubi's power is immesurable, while his own power is. So according to HIM(/HER?), it's quite simply on a different scale. There's no comparison between them.

 

[genii96]

This is a joke,ems madara and hashirama have no hope of winning,5kages+kakashi+guy+all the other top ninjas vs these 2?. The kages could handle hashirama,while madara takes on all the other shinobi at once.

Sorry,ASF mid diff

 

[genii96]

This is a joke,ems madara and hashirama have no hope of winning,5kages+kakashi+guy+all the other top ninjas vs these 2?. The kages could handle hashirama,while madara takes on all the other shinobi at once.

Sorry,ASF mid diff

 

[shelke]

@PirateFish They are unrelated if you chose them to be. Also, 9 tails is the strongest, correct? 8 tails is the second strongest, correct? Now Juubi only houses 7 tailed beasts, correct? And 9 tails alone was able to overwhelm 5 tailed beats fully charged blast, correct? The power difference between 8 and 9 tails is quite big.

Now add all this, and where does the Juubi stand as it's only the combined form of all the tailed beasts and two of the top ones are missing from it? You don't have to be a genius to figure this out. Nine tails deflecting its attack means nothing on basis of these facts.

 

[Piratefish]

@PirateFish They are unrelated if you chose them to be. Also, 9 tails is the strongest, correct? 8 tails is the second strongest, correct? Now Juubi only houses 7 tailed beasts, correct? And 9 tails alone was able to overwhelm 5 tailed beats fully charged blast, correct? The power difference between 8 and 9 tails is quite big.

They are unrelated because you (as you are VERY fond of) went into detail on the amount of chakra included in a clone, and on the amount of damage it could take.

My actual topic on conversation concerned whether a clone could perform the same techniques, with the same amount of power, as the original, if the clone's chakra holds out. You have not even attempted to disprove this, instead trying to paint me as an uncooperative buffoon.

Correct, the 9 tails is the strongest. Correct, the 8 tails follows in terms of strength. Incorrect, the Juubi houses more than the 7 tailed beasts, it houses a significant fraction of both the Hachibi and especially the Kyuubi. It also contains the Gedou Mazou, which contains significant power even WITHOUT Bijuu sealed within it. Altogether, the Juubi is FAR more powerful than the Hachibi and Kyuubi put together.

Now add all this, and where does the Juubi stand as it's only the combined form of all the tailed beasts and two of the top ones are missing from it? You don't have to be a genius to figure this out. Nine tails deflecting its attack means nothing on basis of these facts.

The Juubi stands supreme as the single strongest being in the Narutoverse. Though it's not as strong as it COULD be, it's still on a different level to anything else. Apparently the Juubi is capable of absorbing energy directly from Nature (either that or it IS Natural Energy incarnate), giving it unmatched, effectively limitless power. Kurama, and even the HACHIBI, deflecting its attack means NOTHING? Whoa.

I'll leave you to ponder the veracity of your own statement.