EMS Madara and Hashirama VS Allied Shinobi Force

[MickNerks]

EMS Madara still has PS, susanoo with legs, massive katons, great reaction skills, paralysis sharingan genjutsu, great prowess at CQC with his fan and the ability to reflect any attack that isn't bigger than his fan.

Hashirama has flower tree world, wood dragon, nativity of a world of trees and all of Danzo's/Yamato's/Zetsu's/Madara's/Obito's mokuton feats. He also has Tsunade level regeneration and very likely has great physical strength and stamina because he has the body of the Younger Son.

Both of these guys have powerful offence and defence capable of annihilating thousands of fodders in a matter of seconds. I don't see why people are underestimating these two legends. The only one that can put up a fight is Naruto but he is a bad match up against Hashirama due to Hashi's ability to suppress chakra, something that Naruto has an abundant supply of.

I say Madara and Hashirama win high difficulty only because Naruto and Bee will be too late. The rest of the alliance are ants compared to these two.

EMS madara does not have Perfect susanoo. Only Rinnegan madara can do that..

 

[Icelerate]

ems madara didnt. immortal invincible senju dna powered madara however...

EMS Madara still had PS.

and yet no one has seen it and lived. meaning he didnt use on hashirama and it has no feats relating to ems, only edo. and nothing his susano did suggested bijuudama-tanking durability.

No Madara did use it against Hashirama or else Madara wouldn't be saying that only Hashirama could stop me which means either Madara was implying that Hashirama can stop edo Madara or that Hashirama can counter PS. Which one do you choose?

no it cant and no he doesnt. since when can it reflect ANY attack? way to use no limits fallacy. proof it can take a cell destroying FRS please.

It deflected a mini bijuu dama with ease and how do the cell destroying capabilities of FRS matter in this scenario since Madara's Uchiha Gaeshi technique will just reflect an attack that has less chakra than the mini bijuu dama.

nowhere in OP did it say give their feats to hashirama. its an impossibility. what they do with it is their creativity. how did hashi get blood down his face if he can instantly put anyone to sleep/phase through the ground/rip people in half? exactly. mokuton supression already cant work on perfect jins as they would just turn human.

Because he fought against the strongest Uchiha and the strongest bijuu so despite Hashirama's overwhelming power, he has his limits too. Didn't Hashirama's wood dragon give Naruto and Bee a tough time?

they arent. they have literally done nothing. not a single thing. not even a little bit resembling battle feats. they are featless beyond belief. tell me they can tank 13 rasenshurikens. wait you cant. tell me they can tank continuous bijuudama. wait you cant,. tell me the have a counter for toad confrontation chant. wait you cant. how do you know or anyone know what their capabilities and limits are? we dont. they havent done anything and we dont know what happened in their oh so famous fight. all we know of madara is he can spam alot of OP shit. guess what? without enhancements hes dead by his own meteor in 2 chapters. he already had to go to rinnegan vs a bunch of half dead kages and a clone. hashi already got annhilated by an old man in 3, maybe 4 chapters. they are godawfuly pathetic

FRS - blocked by any form of susanoo above rib cage or by a line up of mokuton trees.
TBB - Hashirama can stop Naruto by restraining him with mokuton if he tries to prep an attack like that.
Frog song - Hashirama covers his ears with wood while Madara is too high up in the air to be effected by the sound waves. Madara could have used his PS when he was yanked out by Gaara and Hashirama was a brain dead zombie who only attacked Hiruzen whenever Oro gave the command to do so.

naruto turns human, speedblitzes, shoves FRS up his ass

Yet he hasn't been able to speed blitz any top tier ninjas so far. If he has blitzed anyone, prove it.

naruto speedblitzes and throws 13 rasenshurikens at him or spams clones till a gigantic bijuudamas ready then literally blows him away. his strength =unparalleled. speed = even higher level as only minato can outpace him. destructive capacity = so much so he damages at a cellular level and casually busts probably islands if he wanted

I don't remember Naruto using 13 rasenshurikens at once. Guess what, Naruto arrives ten minutes after the battle starts and Madara and Hashirama can also bust islands.

which is why he needed rinnegan just to get past half dead onoki/gaara and a naruto clone. makes sense..wait...wait no...it doesnt. and do you really think he could have stood against dust release without that nifty rinnegan that absorbs the only jutsu that can damage at a subatomic level?

No he could have used PS.

neither have counters for onoki and kakashi (who can warp and spit out onoki so hes right in their faces. no time to do anything but a hasty defence and that isnt stopping jinton to the face. so basically dead in the first few secs. naruto and bee not needed.

This actually is a good point but they are likely to be fooled by a wood clone. Jinton can be stopped before it can be prepped.

Madara and hashirama can not counter Naruto & bee combine bijuu dama. And 80,000 shinobi? Are you kidding me? None of the legends can counter kamui and they have smart people like shikaku, shikamaru and kakashi that can formulate a plane. The legends are nothing but powerhouse they are not genius battlewise. I believe naruto kakashi and gai can beat 1 of them while the 5kages bee 80,000 shinobi beat the other. And note madara was only able to destroy gaara's division thanks to rinnegan which he didn't have here and all hashirama's wood tech shown have been countered. The alliance mid to low difficulty

Did I not restrict kamui for offensive purposes? Madara and Hashirama are quite capable of stopping Naruto and Bee from performing an attack that takes time to prep. Madara has a shit load of battle experience and Hashirama was probably intelligent due to being a leader. Hashirama's wood techs were hard to counter despite Madara's less skill in it and the fact he has been toying around for most of the time.

EMS madara does not have Perfect susanoo. Only Rinnegan madara can do that..

He does have PS.

 

[Bogard]

If we take into consideration Edo Madara's performance we must say that the EMS version doesn't have Mokuton clones or even every other Mokuton techniques, which means that multiple Susanoo is also restricted. He also doesn't have Rinnengan. So it only leaves him genjutsu, Susanoo(perfect or not) or other fire techniques as his only feats that we know. We have seen that Gaara(with a little bit help from Onoki) was already puting the EMS version in difficulties where he had to ressort to Rinnengan to survive. So add other powerful shinobis like other kages, Kakashi, Gai, Darui, etc and it's a stomp.

Now people may talk about Perfect Susanoo, sure it seems really powerful, but the chakra to summon it must also be really insane. I doubt that alive Madara could use Perfect Susanoo for too long. Even his Edo version only uses it in case of absolute necessity. He didn't even used it against Naruto's group when he said he was serious about wanting to capture them, so sooner or later he will run out of stamina and get killed

Since Hashirama has no feats except maybe his part1 feat which is not impressiv, so i don't know where is to discuss here. I doubt the EMS version of Madara even with Hashirama's help could do a valuable thing against the joint army before they get stomped, at least from what we know

 

[KidGamer65]

ems madara and hashirama are completely and utterly featless and have done nothing, not even a little bit, onscreen that impresses me. all we know about either is word of moth and the shit edo madara is doing. but hes only doing all that shit because hes both senju and uchiha, and has that nifty immortality/unlimited stamina shit. if kishi wanted to show us ems and hashi fight, he'd do so, not this pseudo bullshit.
simply put naruto solos. he annhilates the both of them with speedblitz, FRS and bijuudama. completely different level to both. with frog genjutsu theres no hope for victory. just have fodders fight till he gets there. no reason to risk kages or bee

Hashirama alone can beat Naruto. Only a fan or a moron would say Naruto solos.

 

[Piratefish]

Hashirama alone can beat Naruto. Only a fan or a moron would say Naruto solos.

I proudly proclaim myself a moron, then, as Naruto, fighting smart (rare occurence, but it HAS happened) could conceivably solo these two.

Take a look at Madara and Naruto's relative speeds (and keep in mind that Madara has the Sharingan, and Naruto is moving linearly, giving him an advantage Hashirama WOULDN'T have):

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Naruto has formed a Bijuudama AND crossed a fair amount of distance in the time it takes Madara to raise his arms a little. Granted, it was all that needed to be done, but it still seems quite obvious that BM Naruto outspeeds Edo Madara by a significant amount, even while moving in a completely linear fashion. Which means he'd outspeed Hashirama even more.

So what if, for example, BM Naruto formed three clones for each of the two Founders, and having all of them create Bijuudamas (Bijuudamae?). If you feel this is unrealistic, have him form only three clones, which he is confirmed to be capable of.

So, if each clone triad rushed their chosen Founder in a triangle formation, how would they counter it?

 

[KidGamer65]

I proudly proclaim myself a moron, then, as Naruto, fighting smart (rare occurence, but it HAS happened) could conceivably solo these two.

Take a look at Madara and Naruto's relative speeds (and keep in mind that Madara has the Sharingan, and Naruto is moving linearly, giving him an advantage Hashirama WOULDN'T have):

Spoiler

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Naruto has formed a Bijuudama AND crossed a fair amount of distance in the time it takes Madara to raise his arms a little. Granted, it was all that needed to be done, but it still seems quite obvious that BM Naruto outspeeds Edo Madara by a significant amount, even while moving in a completely linear fashion. Which means he'd outspeed Hashirama even more.

So what if, for example, BM Naruto formed three clones for each of the two Founders, and having all of them create Bijuudamas (Bijuudamae?). If you feel this is unrealistic, have him form only three clones, which he is confirmed to be capable of.

So, if each clone triad rushed their chosen Founder in a triangle formation, how would they counter it?

Naruto formed a Mini Bijuu Dama first of all.

Hashirama can simply make a giant dome of Mokuton to block Naruto and his Mini Bijuu Dama, while Madara activates Perfect Susanoo. Then Perfect Susanoo swings its blade and knocks Naruto backwards with the shockwave (if he misses) and then Hashirama ties him up with the Wood Dragon allowing Madara to swing again and finish Naruto off.

 

[Piratefish]

Naruto formed a Mini Bijuu Dama first of all.

Hashirama can simply make a giant dome of Mokuton to block Naruto and his Mini Bijuu Dama, while Madara activates Perfect Susanoo. Then Perfect Susanoo swings its blade and knocks Naruto backwards with the shockwave (if he misses) and then Hashirama ties him up with the Wood Dragon allowing Madara to swing again and finish Naruto off.

The point is not whether they can block Mini-Bijuudama (it's still a Bijuudama) but rather if they have TIME.

Also, are you SURE even Wood Bunker/Perfect Susano'o can withstand triple-Mini-Bijuudama-rush?

A Bijuudama is a Bijuu-level weapon, and Madara DID state that his PS was "comparable only to the Bijuu in power". If Perfect Susano'o's Sword can damage BM Naruto's Kyuubi Channeling Mode, I don't see why even a Mini-Bijuudama (or three) shouldn't be able to at least damage Perfect Susano'o.

 

[KidGamer65]

The point is not whether they can block Mini-Bijuudama (it's still a Bijuudama) but rather if they have TIME.

Also, are you SURE even Wood Bunker/Perfect Susano'o can withstand triple-Mini-Bijuudama-rush?

A Bijuudama is a Bijuu-level weapon, and Madara DID state that his PS was "comparable only to the Bijuu in power". If Perfect Susano'o's Sword can damage BM Naruto's Kyuubi Channeling Mode, I don't see why even a Mini-Bijuudama (or three) shouldn't be able to at least damage Perfect Susano'o.

Madara can activate PS in a second, while Hashirama's wood sprouts out at almost and instant.

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A Mini Bijuu Dama is vastly inferior to Bijuu Dama, it has only smashed a few rocks while Bijuu Dama can bust mountains. so it isn't scratching PS, and Jukai Kotan will intercept the clones.

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Madara and Hashirama will be able to retaliate before Naruto reaches them.

 

[Piratefish]

Madara can activate PS in a second, while Hashirama's wood sprouts out at almost and instant.

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Madara has to form seals to use Wood Release of that scale, while Hashirama MIGHT not have to do that (wouldn't Madara be able to use Mokuton on EXACTLY the level Hashirama does, after observing him in battle so many times AND obtaining the Kekkei Genkai), he hasn't SHOWN any instant or near-instant defenses on the level of blocking three Mini-Bijuudama. Naruto is capable of making a pact with the Kyuubi, making MASSIVE amounts of clones AND Oodama Rasengan by the time it reaches him:

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All taken together it supports my impression of Mokuton pretty well:

While it may not be FAST, it's DAMN near UNSTOPPABLE. (Wood Dragon, anyone?)

Notice that even against a MASSIVE Jinton, Madara isn't able to INSTANTLY form Perfect Susano'o. While he DID instantly make an improved Complete Susano'o (what you just showed) it takes longer for him to stabilize the chakra into perfection itself. Which is only natural. When has he EVER needed an INSTANT Perfect Susano'o BEFORE? (Mokuton not being THAT fast?)

It takes two more panels for the completely PERFECT version to be ready:

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And even then it might not be enough, as the power of even a Mini-Bijuudama (or three) is considerable, as I'll argue for next.

A Mini Bijuu Dama is vastly inferior to Bijuu Dama, it has only smashed a few rocks while Bijuu Dama can bust mountains. so it isn't scratching PS, and Jukai Kotan will intercept the clones.

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Madara and Hashirama will be able to retaliate before Naruto reaches them.

Actuall, that Bijuudama didn't actually HIT anything, it only fizzled out as Naruto stopped maintaining it.

Remember how even a regular Rasengan loses a LOT of its actual FORCE as it loses cohesion (seen here as it transcends dimensions):

Spoiler

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Only barely destroying Obito's sleeve, and not even seeming to have damaged his arm.

THIS, HOWEVER:

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Is what happens when a Mini-Bijuudama actually HITS something. It takes out (a clone of) BM Naruto with ease, and the BM cloak is pretty durable.

I believe three of them at once could make a dent in whatever defense Madara and Hashirama have to offer, whether or not they actually have time to form it. If it makes even the SLIGHTEST impact, all Naruto has to do is to repeat the process, until either both his foes are dead or he can land an ACTUAL Bijuudama.

 

[USSJ Future Trunks]

Hashirama and Madara take this. PS took out on whole mountain with a casual slash of its sword

onoki destroys anything at the molecular level. and it takes time to stablise PS. they cant take it if onokis disintegrated their heads

Onoki's particle technique was easily countered by going into complete sussano:

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.

not once did onoki fire any dust release at it, probably because he CANT. he was already too out of chakra and so was tsunae. only known counter is, preta path

TBBs' are too sluggish when the energy is being gathered

609 reveals this to not be the case.

Madara can take out all of the kages, either with a sword slash

hes dead from a dust laser before he can do anything

asking Hashirama to create a mokuton forest around them and setting it on Amatersu.

scans of madara using amat? and scans of him doing that without massive chakra drain

People forget that Madara was only playing. \

he was deadly serious. thats why he used susano , rinnegan and meteors immediately.

The second he got serious, they got their asses stomped to oblivion.

after cornering and nearly sealing him twice and killing him twice

All that shit has literally nothing to do with Perfect Susano'o. Which EMS Madar DID have, and it did blow up mountains

no it cut them. useless if its hit with dust release cube.

tachi can't even use his crimson phoenix flower jutsu when he's living

living itachi we know about and his limits. ems madara we know nothing about, nothing at all. not even a little.

No Madara did use it against Hashirama or else Madara wouldn't be saying that only Hashirama could stop me

why isnt it possible for him to believe hashi can beat it without actually using it on him before? he didnt want to kill hashirama, only take his living tissue. stop =/= kill

It deflected a mini bijuu dama with ease

theres alot more powerful attacks than that

Madara's Uchiha Gaeshi technique will just reflect an attack that has less chakra than the mini bijuu dama

FRS is weird and has vastly different properties to other attacks. its not a ball of chakra. its a thousand little spinnign blades of wind.

Because he fought against the strongest Uchiha and the strongest bijuu

offscreen and we have no idea what happened. do you? if so, produce and tell me. kishi didnt show it so i have no idea what happened ergo we know nothing about it. nothing suggests power other than rumour and hype.

Didn't Hashirama's wood dragon give Naruto and Bee a tough time?

hashirama didnt fight. he hasnt done anything. madara did

FRS - blocked by any form of susanoo above rib cage

13 of them? from all directions? an attack that ALSO has cut mountains?

TBB - Hashirama can stop Naruto by restraining him with mokuton

Hashirama hasnt done anything much less shown speed on narutos level or anything resembling defensive skill. mokuton is nothing compared to bijuudama/FRS barrage and perfect jin control.

rog song - Hashirama covers his ears with wood

why would he do that? hes never heard of this genjutsu. if nagato didnt, and he knows more about jiraiya than hashirama, then what makes you think someone whos never met those sage toads in his entire life would?

Madara is too high up in the air to be effected by the sound waves.

how far away was pain when he heard it in the tunnels?

Madara could have used his PS when he was yanked out by Gaara

no. it takes time to stabilise and as it is, susano is a damaging chakra sucking tech. impossible to spam an advanced version without edo immortality

Hashirama was a brain dead zombie who only attacked Hiruzen whenever Oro gave the command to do so.

so oro somehow knew about darkness genjutsu? im sure hashi had some control of his actions

et he hasn't been able to speed blitz any top tier ninjas so far

hes been doing so constantly. CONSTANTLY. speedblitzed kisame, speedblitzed mu, speedblitzed 3rd raikage to land a point blank FRS. speedblitzed kakashi and gai when he deflected bijuudamas. speedblitzed obito in the other dimension to break his mask.

I don't remember Naruto using 13 rasenshurikens at once

i dont remember alive ems madara and hashirama doing anything impressive whatsoever

Hashirama can also bust islands.

HAHAHAHAAHAAH/. with ****ing what? trees? point me to where trees can "bust" things

This actually is a good point but they are likely to be fooled by a wood clone. Jinton can be stopped before it can be prepped.

and who on team 1 has seen it enough to know that? akatsuchi knew you could interrupt the prep but onokis been seen doing it on a team fight so fast 25 rinnegan using clones couldnt react and stop it. a wood clone might save hashi but how long can hashi alone stand up to the rest of the kages and division captains? dont forget gais 8th gate

Madara has a shit load of battle experience and Hashirama was probably intelligent due to being a leader.

so your resorting to bullshit speculation because you know youve lost?

Hashirama alone can beat Naruto.

hashiramas most powerful move already failed against him and that was before kurama took command and started revealing hes a strategic genius and able to spam multiple bijudamas in seconds. nothing hashi has can stand up to that plus FRS barrage and a sea of clones

Hashirama can simply make a giant dome of Mokuton to block Naruto and his Mini Bijuu Dama

naruto will be in bijuu mode so how is he stopping an insta-giant bijuudama as shown in 609 and 571?

hile Madara activates Perfect Susanoo. Then Perfect Susanoo swings its blade and knocks Naruto backwards with the shockwave

onoki from behind disintegrates susano before its stabalised or they retreat and fire long range bijuudamas till madara drops dead of exhaustion

Hashirama ties him up with the Wood Dragon

disintegrated by jinton, sunken by gaara, bijuudama'd to hell by the jins or smashed by kitsuchis mountain sandwhich. take your pick

Madara can activate PS in a second, while Hashirama's wood sprouts out at almost and instan

madaras wood does. hashiramas wood has been shown vs hiruzen to be not instant. and madara only activated non stablised PS in a sec. but naruto and onoki have been doing their big techs in seconds too.

 

[shelke]

^
1: It took less than a second to stabilize his sussano:

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- Look at Onoki's arm coming down. CS was stabilized into PS in less than a second.

2: It complete encompassed Madara:

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and he used CS to counter it:

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. If what you are saying is true, then why didn't the sussano portion still inside the technique turn to dust? Because, it can't. It was cancelled out by going into CS.

3: TBB is not an instant technique. It takes a bit of time to gather energy, and larger the TBB, the more sluggish it is. You can check out Kurama doing it itself back in its fight against Mintao. He had time to not only call a summon - toad summon - but teleport them as well, and the TBB was still in Kurama's mouth. In the second instant, Minto used hand seals and actived his S/T jutsu to teleport it, and Kurama was charging all that time. A TBB that scale is too slow a technique.

4: Gaeshi technique deflected a mini BD. This isn't scratching PS.

5: PS sword slash is extremely fast and it leveled an entire mountain to the ground in a second or two. This alone puts Naruto and Bee at a huge disadvantage.

6: Please check the databook, Itachi's, and Sasuke's statement. I am not going to post any links, because this should be a known fact by now: Left Ms/EMS Amatersu, and right Ms/EMS Tsukiyomi. These make up the double mangeako and that creates sussnao.

 

[KidGamer65]

onoki destroys anything at the molecular level. and it takes time to stablise PS. they cant take it if onokis disintegrated their heads

not once did onoki fire any dust release at it, probably because he CANT. he was already too out of chakra and so was tsunae. only known counter is, preta path


609 reveals this to not be the case.


hes dead from a dust laser before he can do anything

scans of madara using amat? and scans of him doing that without massive chakra drain


he was deadly serious. thats why he used susano , rinnegan and meteors immediately.


after cornering and nearly sealing him twice and killing him twice

no it cut them. useless if its hit with dust release cube.

living itachi we know about and his limits. ems madara we know nothing about, nothing at all. not even a little.


why isnt it possible for him to believe hashi can beat it without actually using it on him before? he didnt want to kill hashirama, only take his living tissue. stop =/= kill


theres alot more powerful attacks than that

FRS is weird and has vastly different properties to other attacks. its not a ball of chakra. its a thousand little spinnign blades of wind.


offscreen and we have no idea what happened. do you? if so, produce and tell me. kishi didnt show it so i have no idea what happened ergo we know nothing about it. nothing suggests power other than rumour and hype.

hashirama didnt fight. he hasnt done anything. madara did

13 of them? from all directions? an attack that ALSO has cut mountains?

Hashirama hasnt done anything much less shown speed on narutos level or anything resembling defensive skill. mokuton is nothing compared to bijuudama/FRS barrage and perfect jin control.


why would he do that? hes never heard of this genjutsu. if nagato didnt, and he knows more about jiraiya than hashirama, then what makes you think someone whos never met those sage toads in his entire life would?


how far away was pain when he heard it in the tunnels?

no. it takes time to stabilise and as it is, susano is a damaging chakra sucking tech. impossible to spam an advanced version without edo immortality


so oro somehow knew about darkness genjutsu? im sure hashi had some control of his actions


hes been doing so constantly. CONSTANTLY. speedblitzed kisame, speedblitzed mu, speedblitzed 3rd raikage to land a point blank FRS. speedblitzed kakashi and gai when he deflected bijuudamas. speedblitzed obito in the other dimension to break his mask.



i dont remember alive ems madara and hashirama doing anything impressive whatsoever



HAHAHAHAAHAAH/. with ****ing what? trees? point me to where trees can "bust" things


and who on team 1 has seen it enough to know that? akatsuchi knew you could interrupt the prep but onokis been seen doing it on a team fight so fast 25 rinnegan using clones couldnt react and stop it. a wood clone might save hashi but how long can hashi alone stand up to the rest of the kages and division captains? dont forget gais 8th gate

so your resorting to bullshit speculation because you know youve lost?


hashiramas most powerful move already failed against him and that was before kurama took command and started revealing hes a strategic genius and able to spam multiple bijudamas in seconds. nothing hashi has can stand up to that plus FRS barrage and a sea of clones

naruto will be in bijuu mode so how is he stopping an insta-giant bijuudama as shown in 609 and 571?

onoki from behind disintegrates susano before its stabalised or they retreat and fire long range bijuudamas till madara drops dead of exhaustion

disintegrated by jinton, sunken by gaara, bijuudama'd to hell by the jins or smashed by kitsuchis mountain sandwhich. take your pick


madaras wood does. hashiramas wood has been shown vs hiruzen to be not instant. and madara only activated non stablised PS in a sec. but naruto and onoki have been doing their big techs in seconds too.

Its funny how you said Naruto solos, but you start to mention other characters after I replied to you.

 

[KidGamer65]

Madara has to form seals to use Wood Release of that scale, while Hashirama MIGHT not have to do that (wouldn't Madara be able to use Mokuton on EXACTLY the level Hashirama does, after observing him in battle so many times AND obtaining the Kekkei Genkai), he hasn't SHOWN any instant or near-instant defenses on the level of blocking three Mini-Bijuudama. Naruto is capable of making a pact with the Kyuubi, making MASSIVE amounts of clones AND Oodama Rasengan by the time it reaches him:

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All taken together it supports my impression of Mokuton pretty well:

While it may not be FAST, it's DAMN near UNSTOPPABLE. (Wood Dragon, anyone?)

All Hashirama has to do to use that is to clap their hands together. If the Clones are rushing at him, Jukai Kotan will block the ones coming for Hashirama even if it misses, Naruto won't reach him. Madara activated unstabilized PS in a second, even if he has no time to stabilize it, it can still block Mini Bijuu Dama.

Naruto was able to destroy the Wood because he was stationary when Madara shot it, and he wasn't already using another attack, with Naruto's speed, if he is in mid attack and Hashirama uses it he won't be reaching him.

Notice that even against a MASSIVE Jinton, Madara isn't able to INSTANTLY form Perfect Susano'o. While he DID instantly make an improved Complete Susano'o (what you just showed) it takes longer for him to stabilize the chakra into perfection itself. Which is only natural. When has he EVER needed an INSTANT Perfect Susano'o BEFORE? (Mokuton not being THAT fast?)

It takes two more panels for the completely PERFECT version to be ready:

Spoiler

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And even then it might not be enough, as the power of even a Mini-Bijuudama (or three) is considerable, as I'll argue for next.

That was Perfect Susanoo (unstabilized version) not a Complete Susanoo, and like I said that version is enough to block Mini Bijuu Dama.

Actuall, that Bijuudama didn't actually HIT anything, it only fizzled out as Naruto stopped maintaining it.

Remember how even a regular Rasengan loses a LOT of its actual FORCE as it loses cohesion (seen here as it transcends dimensions):

Spoiler

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Only barely destroying Obito's sleeve, and not even seeming to have damaged his arm.

THIS, HOWEVER:

Spoiler

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Is what happens when a Mini-Bijuudama actually HITS something. It takes out (a clone of) BM Naruto with ease, and the BM cloak is pretty durable.

The BM Cloak isn't as durable as Madara's Susanoo, and he won't even reach Hashirama to hit him with it.

I believe three of them at once could make a dent in whatever defense Madara and Hashirama have to offer, whether or not they actually have time to form it. If it makes even the SLIGHTEST impact, all Naruto has to do is to repeat the process, until either both his foes are dead or he can land an ACTUAL Bijuudama.

Naruto won't hit Hashirama, and PS tanks that as Chou Odama Rasengan which hollows out mountains if it explodes:

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was tanked by Madara's ribcage Susanoo, the weakest form.

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Looking at the damage Mini Bijuu Dama caused, you can easily tell that its destructive power doesn't match Chou Oodama Rasengan's power.

They won't have the opportunity to rinse and repeat cause once Perfect Susanoo it out, Madara can just slash those clones rushing at him away, while Hashirama can use his Flower Tree World and Wood Dragon to suck out Naruto's chakra.

 

[Piratefish]

All Hashirama has to do to use that is to clap their hands together. If the Clones are rushing at him, Jukai Kotan will block the ones coming for Hashirama even if it misses, Naruto won't reach him. Madara activated unstabilized PS in a second, even if he has no time to stabilize it, it can still block Mini Bijuu Dama.

True, Hashi can use the technique by just clapping his hands, but what evidence do you have that Jukai Kotan fast enough to counter BM Naruto mid-rush? Was it not countered by REGULAR clones using Oodama Rasengan, after not only holding a short conversation with the Kyuubi about the granting of chakra but using that chakra to create clones and THEN Giant Rasengan?

Naruto was able to destroy the Wood because he was stationary when Madara shot it, and he wasn't already using another attack, with Naruto's speed, if he is in mid attack and Hashirama uses it he won't be reaching him.

With Naruto's speed, if he is mid attack (at three angles!) and Hashirama uses Jukai Kotan it seems more than possible ONE of them will at least have time and opportunity to make a partial hit. Which could very well be match-ending. He DEFLECTED 5 Bijuudama. His reaction-time is EXCELLENT.

That was Perfect Susanoo (unstabilized version) not a Complete Susanoo, and like I said that version is enough to block Mini Bijuu Dama.

No evidence supports that statement. Even an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o is likely more powerful defensively than a Complete Susano'o, but a Complete Susano'o HAS been damaged by singe Tsunade-strength punches:

Spoiler

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Mini-Bijuudama are superior in destructive force to those, and there ARE three of them.

The BM Cloak isn't as durable as Madara's Susanoo, and he won't even reach Hashirama to hit him with it.

It's not as durable, true. It was still obliterated. By a single Mini-Bijuudama. Madara's facing three. Hashirama could very well be hit: Here's Madara being pretty much blitzed by the Raikage:

Spoiler

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There WERE no Shinobi of that speed-level during the lives of the Founders, which is why Madara was surprised. And Naruto is faster than the Yondaime Raikage, there's three of him, and he has Bijuudamae. (I've decided that's the correct spelling for the plural form of the word.)

Naruto won't hit Hashirama, and PS tanks that as Chou Odama Rasengan which hollows out mountains if it explodes:

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was tanked by Madara's ribcage Susanoo, the weakest form.

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That's a non-senjutsu enhanced Oodama Rasengan. Vastly inferior to even a Senpo: Oodama Rasengan, not even mentioning a Mini-Bijuudama. Bijuudama are mountain-busters, and the Oodama Rasengan hasn't SHOWN any feats of that scale. I've already countered the repeated and pretty much evidence-less insistence that Hashirama won't be hit enough times, I think...

Looking at the damage Mini Bijuu Dama caused, you can easily tell that its destructive power doesn't match Chou Oodama Rasengan's power.

No. It's FAR more concentrated for one, and the damage shown by the Mini-Bijuudama is actually HIGHER than anything shown by Oodama Rasengan. Especially non-senjutsu based Oodama's. If you can reasonably prove otherwise, I WILL change my opinion. But there's no evidence for this.

They won't have the opportunity to rinse and repeat cause once Perfect Susanoo it out, Madara can just slash those clones rushing at him away, while Hashirama can use his Flower Tree World and Wood Dragon to suck out Naruto's chakra.

Perfect Susano'o is not in any way proven faster than BM clones. Wood Dragon is an effective counter to BM Naruto in most ways, but he can form clones even while locked in battle with it. Rinse and repeat is a valid option, if it proves necessary.

 

[Bogard]

No one is as more as overrated than Madara and Hashirama right now. If you think that they can beat the joint army, you're either a fool or someone who doesn't read the manga well

 

[KidGamer65]

True, Hashi can use the technique by just clapping his hands, but what evidence do you have that Jukai Kotan fast enough to counter BM Naruto mid-rush? Was it not countered by REGULAR clones using Oodama Rasengan, after not only holding a short conversation with the Kyuubi about the granting of chakra but using that chakra to create clones and THEN Giant Rasengan?

There is a big difference between the two scenarios.

Naruto was stationary at the beginning and wasn't using any jutsu, then he rushed at the wood and hit with his attack.

If Naruto is running at Hashirama first like you say, Hashirama uses this and then Naruto either gets hit or jumps back to avoid it, and breaks it later, Mini Bijuu Dama isn't getting through that so colliding with it is not an option.

With Naruto's speed, if he is mid attack (at three angles!) and Hashirama uses Jukai Kotan it seems more than possible ONE of them will at least have time and opportunity to make a partial hit. Which could very well be match-ending. He DEFLECTED 5 Bijuudama. His reaction-time is EXCELLENT.

Hashirama has Mokuton clones so he can block Naruto from all 3 angles.

No evidence supports that statement. Even an unstabilized Perfect Susano'o is likely more powerful defensively than a Complete Susano'o, but a Complete Susano'o HAS been damaged by singe Tsunade-strength punches:

Spoiler

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Mini-Bijuudama are superior in destructive force to those, and there ARE three of them.

Mini Bijuu Dama is nowhere near a mountain buster, the damage it caused wasn't even that impressive, even 3 of those won't break Susanoo.

I

t's not as durable, true. It was still obliterated. By a single Mini-Bijuudama. Madara's facing three. Hashirama could very well be hit: Here's Madara being pretty much blitzed by the Raikage:

Spoiler

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There WERE no Shinobi of that speed-level during the lives of the Founders, which is why Madara was surprised. And Naruto is faster than the Yondaime Raikage, there's three of him, and he has Bijuudamae. (I've decided that's the correct spelling for the plural form of the word.)

And Madara still block A's punch, he can very well summon Susanoo with a thought before Naruto gets him, if he can block A.

That's a non-senjutsu enhanced Oodama Rasengan. Vastly inferior to even a Senpo: Oodama Rasengan, not even mentioning a Mini-Bijuudama. Bijuudama are mountain-busters, and the Oodama Rasengan hasn't SHOWN any feats of that scale. I've already countered the repeated and pretty much evidence-less insistence that Hashirama won't be hit enough times, I think...

Exactly, Bijuu Dama are mountain busters not Mini Bijuu Dama, and Chou Oodama Rasengan hollows out a mountain, different from a mountain buster. Unless you have some feats for Mini Bijuu Dama that show it is far stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, there is no reason to believe it can even harm Susanoo, when ribcage tanked a Chou Oodama Rasengan

No. It's FAR more concentrated for one, and the damage shown by the Mini-Bijuudama is actually HIGHER than anything shown by Oodama Rasengan. Especially non-senjutsu based Oodama's. If you can reasonably prove otherwise, I WILL change my opinion. But there's no evidence for this.

There is no evidence to believe it is stronger when all we saw Mini Bijuu Dama was break some rocks and cause a mediocre sized explosion.

Even if it is stronger than Chou Oodama Rasengan, after factoring in the difference of power between Ribcage and PS, you can safely assume that Mini Bijuu Dama isn't going to cut it, the only thing Naruto has that can break PS is the full sized Bijuu Dama.

Perfect Susano'o is not in any way proven faster than BM clones. Wood Dragon is an effective counter to BM Naruto in most ways, but he can form clones even while locked in battle with it. Rinse and repeat is a valid option, if it proves necessary.

Naruto's BM Clones, mid attack aren't dodging this:

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and even if they do the shockwave will destroy them.

 

[Ultimate uzumaki form]

EMS Madara...Amatersu shield, and PS.

Hashirama could be a support with his healing and instant forest creation.

EDIT: _O- when did this become Naruto > Ems Madara & Hashirama

 

[Zayon Uchiha]

with the of the jinchuricki

 

[Joki]

Spoiler

onoki destroys anything at the molecular level. and it takes time to stablise PS. they cant take it if onokis disintegrated their heads

not once did onoki fire any dust release at it, probably because he CANT. he was already too out of chakra and so was tsunae. only known counter is, preta path


609 reveals this to not be the case.


hes dead from a dust laser before he can do anything

scans of madara using amat? and scans of him doing that without massive chakra drain


he was deadly serious. thats why he used susano , rinnegan and meteors immediately.


after cornering and nearly sealing him twice and killing him twice

no it cut them. useless if its hit with dust release cube.

living itachi we know about and his limits. ems madara we know nothing about, nothing at all. not even a little.


why isnt it possible for him to believe hashi can beat it without actually using it on him before? he didnt want to kill hashirama, only take his living tissue. stop =/= kill


theres alot more powerful attacks than that

FRS is weird and has vastly different properties to other attacks. its not a ball of chakra. its a thousand little spinnign blades of wind.


offscreen and we have no idea what happened. do you? if so, produce and tell me. kishi didnt show it so i have no idea what happened ergo we know nothing about it. nothing suggests power other than rumour and hype.

hashirama didnt fight. he hasnt done anything. madara did

13 of them? from all directions? an attack that ALSO has cut mountains?

Hashirama hasnt done anything much less shown speed on narutos level or anything resembling defensive skill. mokuton is nothing compared to bijuudama/FRS barrage and perfect jin control.


why would he do that? hes never heard of this genjutsu. if nagato didnt, and he knows more about jiraiya than hashirama, then what makes you think someone whos never met those sage toads in his entire life would?


how far away was pain when he heard it in the tunnels?

no. it takes time to stabilise and as it is, susano is a damaging chakra sucking tech. impossible to spam an advanced version without edo immortality


so oro somehow knew about darkness genjutsu? im sure hashi had some control of his actions


hes been doing so constantly. CONSTANTLY. speedblitzed kisame, speedblitzed mu, speedblitzed 3rd raikage to land a point blank FRS. speedblitzed kakashi and gai when he deflected bijuudamas. speedblitzed obito in the other dimension to break his mask.



i dont remember alive ems madara and hashirama doing anything impressive whatsoever



HAHAHAHAAHAAH/. with ****ing what? trees? point me to where trees can "bust" things


and who on team 1 has seen it enough to know that? akatsuchi knew you could interrupt the prep but onokis been seen doing it on a team fight so fast 25 rinnegan using clones couldnt react and stop it. a wood clone might save hashi but how long can hashi alone stand up to the rest of the kages and division captains? dont forget gais 8th gate

so your resorting to bullshit speculation because you know youve lost?


hashiramas most powerful move already failed against him and that was before kurama took command and started revealing hes a strategic genius and able to spam multiple bijudamas in seconds. nothing hashi has can stand up to that plus FRS barrage and a sea of clones

naruto will be in bijuu mode so how is he stopping an insta-giant bijuudama as shown in 609 and 571?

onoki from behind disintegrates susano before its stabalised or they retreat and fire long range bijuudamas till madara drops dead of exhaustion

disintegrated by jinton, sunken by gaara, bijuudama'd to hell by the jins or smashed by kitsuchis mountain sandwhich. take your pick


madaras wood does. hashiramas wood has been shown vs hiruzen to be not instant. and madara only activated non stablised PS in a sec. but naruto and onoki have been doing their big techs in seconds too.

Oh really? In that case since you think you "know Itachi's limits" and that he can, post 1 panel of Itachi using crimson phoenix flower while living. Otherwise you're full of shit and Itachi can only use it when Edo, because we can't make assumptions and he's never shown using it when living and there's nothing in the manga that supports him being able to ever.

I'm glad you agree with me then, considering if you don't agree to that term then you're a massive hypocrite who probably won't even respond in the first place because you tend to do that whenever you're wrong.

 

[Midday]

EMS Madara...Amatersu shield, and PS.

Hashirama could be a support with his healing and instant forest creation.

EDIT: _O- when did this become Naruto > Ems Madara & Hashirama

What can ps do to Naruto if he can tank a jubi laser? I made a thread on Naruto > Hashi as well, but he's got around all of the mokuton techniques used so far, neither Hashi or Madara are tanking a continuous biju dama.