*Looks around* I don't see any of them, yet. We should ... I mean, if it weren't for us this thread could've gone on for 200+ posts without any clear indication of who would win (no matter how obvious it is).
It seems like Kakashi has better senses and awareness than Sasuke so he'll have an advantage at stealth tactics. Still Kakashi would have died if he wasn't saved by Obito and Minato. Kakashi also lost an eye in that battle.
Sasuke has katons which he can use to keep his distance from Kakashi and burn him to oblivion. Kakashi isn't much faster than Sasuke until proven. Sasuke's speed was shown to be in very fast motions too.
This fight depends entirely on the starting range. Sasuke's usage of weapons and katons would overwhelm Kakashi at mid to long range but Kakashi does seem to have an advantage at CQC. In a forest though, I see Kakashi winning the vast majority of the times due to his keen awareness and stealth tactics.
It seems like Kakashi has better senses and awareness than Sasuke so he'll have an advantage at stealth tactics. Still Kakashi would have died if he wasn't saved by Obito and Minato. Kakashi also lost an eye in that battle.
Sasuke has katons which he can use to keep his distance from Kakashi and burn him to oblivion. Kakashi isn't much faster than Sasuke until proven. Sasuke's speed was shown to be in very fast motions too.
This fight depends entirely on the starting range. Sasuke's usage of weapons and katons would overwhelm Kakashi at mid to long range but Kakashi does seem to have an advantage at CQC. In a forest though, I see Kakashi winning the vast majority of the times due to his keen awareness and stealth tactics.
This is reasonable, although it has to be said that Kakashi is both more intelligent than Sasuke and very familiar with Uchiha Katon-style techniques. He is on a team with Obito, remember, who's surprisingly capable once he gets over himself. I see him either countering Gai-style (roundhouse kick to the FACE) or just melting into the woods and trying to close while Sasuke is momentarily off-guard.
As to the "having to be saved" thing, you have a point, but there's also other details that should be clarified. The Iwa Stealth-jounin was obviously gunning for Kakashi as the bigger threat, as when he was discovered he didn't go for Obito, who was closer. Kakashi seems to have been the target all along. They do luck out in Obito awakening the Sharingan then, as Kakashi sensing the enemy (and Obito reacting in time) seems unlikely while he was distracted and in pain.
Minato did save Kakashi from impaling himself on the actual Iwa Clone-jounin, but as regards to the kunai toss thing it seems more like this is a well used tactic between the two than anything else. They have certainly worked together long enough for it, and Kakashi's reaction to the volley (and how it's dealt with) supports the theory. He's not thinking 'shitshitSHIT KUNAI!?!' but rather something like: Minato will deal with these, I'll use them to figure out exactly where our opponents are and deal with them'.
Okay, let's see if I can make my statement clear enough for you:
Sasuke was unimpressive in the fight against Orochimaru. He was initially effortlessly incapacitated and though he displayed sound judgement in wanting to escape a superior opponent he had no idea how to go through with that when his ploy with the scrolls failed. He was able to beat a single summon of little consequence (and displayed less than stellar situational awareness in the process) and dodge some projectiles, but that is literally everything he accomplished against Orochimaru's far from serious attacks.
Naruto displayed both a better understanding of the situation (that there was no guarantee Orochimaru would let them go even if they gave him the scroll) and better combat abilities (fending off a GIANT summon even after Orochimaru gave it permission to eat him, and even assisted it in combat with a wind tech) before being taken out by Orochi's tounge/seal combo. During this engagement Sasuke is either still so fearful that he won't move to assist his teammate, or makes the poor strategic decision of waiting to begin fighting only AFTER Naruto is taken out.
It seems more likely that it's purely fear which keeps him rooted, as it takes a motivational speech from Sakura of all people before he begins moving again. Once he's out he fights well enough, for a genin, but all he accomplishes is baring a fraction of Oro's face with no other noticeable effect.
He was unimpressive according to you, when nothing in the manga suggests that. Since it isn't there, I'm not going to take your word for it, hence this wall of text is unreliable, and pointless for me.
You are, however, denying my reasoning through nothing but insisting my logic is poor.
Sasuke posesses naturally awakened Sharingan. There is literally no other bloodline limit in the world that is more compatible with Orochimaru's single greatest desire: To master ninjutsu totally. Even the Rinnegan (which Oro knows little if anything about) is less effective in the sheer volume of ninjutsu it naturally picks up. Sasuke is the ONLY option. No matter how capable he might or might not be, the simple fact that he has awakened the Sharingan makes him INVALUABLE to Orochimaru.
My assertion that he is a second-rate vessel has to do with Orochimaru picking him only after selecting (at least) two other, more powerful potential candidates. He requires a vast amount of grooming before he is powerful enough to be a fitting vessel.
Now, Naruto shows more potential (at least in pure power growth) than Sasuke pre-Timeskip. He nearly matches Sasuke in their traditional jutsu-clash even after taking a Chidori to the chest, while using either one or two tails, I can't remember. In any case that leaves at least seven more tails of demonic chakra, an insane amount of power. Naruto was more capable than Sasuke both in the Forest of Death (which Orochimaru witnessed) and against Gaara (which he didn't, but as it was a large-scale engagement in the middle of Oro's invasion it would be strange to think he didn't know the results of it), why didn't Orochimaru pick Naruto?
Naruto is both less controllable, more risky and less compatible with Oro's ultimate goal.
Less controllable through the risky buisness of applying yet another seal to a Jinchuuriki's body (wouldn't want to unleash the Kyuubi), but also because he is far harder to manipulate than our dear Uchiha.
More risky through the possibility of Kyuubi tearing itself free, but also the amount of power available to Naruto and him alone should he and Kurama reach any kind of accord. It wouldn't do for the vessel to become too powerful, so again Sasuke is a better choice.
He is less compatible with Orochimaru's ultimate goal because he can't automatically process and store ninjutsu information. The Sharingan, again, is the perfect Kekkei Genkai for a person of Orochimaru's views.
Because your logic and the ensuing reasoning is poor. Orochimaru went for the KG and the fact that he saw great potential in Sasuke. That is set in stone as far as the manga plot points are concerned. Whatever he threw at Sasuke was to test his worth, and he pulled through. Where does this put your reasoning then?
Also, why would he even go for Sasuke at that point when he wanted Itachi? We don't know when that event took place. It's safe to assume that those were the early days of Itachi at Akastsuki and Orochimaru left way back when the group was originally formed. Now if I am to go by time-lines then Sasuke was not even 10 then when this incident took place. Orochimaru had no way of knowing that Sasuke even had a sharingen to begin with. He went after him at the exams because he saw potential. Deny it all you want; your second-rate vessel points are without any weight whatsoever.
Re: Kid Kakashi vs Kid Sasuke
Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
This is not a personal attack at you, but at your logic. Puking logic is not even an attempt at argumentation, what are you getting at with it? 5 posts forward, I am still quite lost.
Okay, let's see if I can make my statement clear enough for you:
Sasuke was unimpressive in the fight against Orochimaru. He was initially effortlessly incapacitated and though he displayed sound judgement in wanting to escape a superior opponent he had no idea how to go through with that when his ploy with the scrolls failed. He was able to beat a single summon of little consequence (and displayed less than stellar situational awareness in the process) and dodge some projectiles, but that is literally everything he accomplished against Orochimaru's far from serious attacks.
Naruto displayed both a better understanding of the situation (that there was no guarantee Orochimaru would let them go even if they gave him the scroll) and better combat abilities (fending off a GIANT summon even after Orochimaru gave it permission to eat him, and even assisted it in combat with a wind tech) before being taken out by Orochi's tounge/seal combo. During this engagement Sasuke is either still so fearful that he won't move to assist his teammate, or makes the poor strategic decision of waiting to begin fighting only AFTER Naruto is taken out.
It seems more likely that it's purely fear which keeps him rooted, as it takes a motivational speech from Sakura of all people before he begins moving again. Once he's out he fights well enough, for a genin, but all he accomplishes is baring a fraction of Oro's face with no other noticeable effect.
Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
Stop assuming things, please, no one is attacking you. So he exhausted all his resources and yet, Sasuke was a second grade vessel? Thank you for proving my point, if nothing else. The rest of the tell-tale doesn't matter and is irrelevant to the topic at hand.
You are, however, denying my reasoning through nothing but insisting my logic is poor.
Sasuke posesses naturally awakened Sharingan. There is literally no other bloodline limit in the world that is more compatible with Orochimaru's single greatest desire: To master ninjutsu totally. Even the Rinnegan (which Oro knows little if anything about) is less effective in the sheer volume of ninjutsu it naturally picks up. Sasuke is the ONLY option. No matter how capable he might or might not be, the simple fact that he has awakened the Sharingan makes him INVALUABLE to Orochimaru.
My assertion that he is a second-rate vessel has to do with Orochimaru picking him only after selecting (at least) two other, more powerful potential candidates. He requires a vast amount of grooming before he is powerful enough to be a fitting vessel.
Now, Naruto shows more potential (at least in pure power growth) than Sasuke pre-Timeskip. He nearly matches Sasuke in their traditional jutsu-clash even after taking a Chidori to the chest, while using either one or two tails, I can't remember. In any case that leaves at least seven more tails of demonic chakra, an insane amount of power. Naruto was more capable than Sasuke both in the Forest of Death (which Orochimaru witnessed) and against Gaara (which he didn't, but as it was a large-scale engagement in the middle of Oro's invasion it would be strange to think he didn't know the results of it), why didn't Orochimaru pick Naruto?
Naruto is both less controllable, more risky and less compatible with Oro's ultimate goal.
Less controllable through the risky buisness of applying yet another seal to a Jinchuuriki's body (wouldn't want to unleash the Kyuubi), but also because he is far harder to manipulate than our dear Uchiha.
More risky through the possibility of Kyuubi tearing itself free, but also the amount of power available to Naruto and him alone should he and Kurama reach any kind of accord. It wouldn't do for the vessel to become too powerful, so again Sasuke is a better choice.
He is less compatible with Orochimaru's ultimate goal because he can't automatically process and store ninjutsu information. The Sharingan, again, is the perfect Kekkei Genkai for a person of Orochimaru's views.
Quote Originally Posted by shelke View Post
Most of your post(s) is(are) made up of prominent 'it seems so', 'my best guess is', 'it doesn't quite mean that' lines. This isn't putting more credibility on your points, it only degrades your logic. More Chakra concentration is not related to better chakra control at all, but better control over the technique itself and advancing it up a notch. Several ninjas have shown this feat, yet the manga still follows those same rules for effective chakra control resulting it an effective usage of the said technique. Kakashi holding it out longer and taking out a few clones is not a feat, in fact it looks quite pathetic compared to Gaara's absolute defense, which was quite raved through out the manga back in those days.
Using more moderate language shouldn't in any way diminish my credibility. Continually stating things that leave no room for doubt, yet are demonstratably wrong is a far worse path. Using assertions such as 'this is how it is', 'it's obviously like this' and 'you are wrong' aren't superior debating tactics if they are ever discovered not to be the case.
Being able to concentrate more chakra in a technique without anything going wrong can't NOT be related to chakra control. Remember Naruto's third lesson in Rasengan training? Sasuke burning his own hand while trying to use the Chidori on his brother demontrates either poor control (not controlling the direction of the power properly) or poor judgement (why on earth would he need more chakra to pierce Itachi than to pierce both Gaara's fabled absolute defense AND the boy himself), or possibly both.
Kindly refer to those links again. I am not going to post a wall of text to go at this again. The manga put a lot of emphesis on Gaara's Absolute Defense and the shocked expressions of everyone, including the siblings, Orochimaru, and The Third Hokage. All this was done for a reason. Just because you are choosing to ignore it, doesn't add to your Kid Kakashi > Kid Sasuke points. They just don't.
Refer to Kakashi Gaiden as the only source available for Kakashi's abilities as a kid, refer to issue 47 and beyond for Sasuke's performance against Orochimaru.
I feel I have to explain something. There is just not much material available to demonstrate kid Kakashi's capabilities, so unlike Sasuke's case it just isn't a reasonable thing to do to dig around for clues. However we KNOW kid Kakashi can do more than is shown in his extremely brief battles, so what is a more reasonable thing to do?
Attempt to figure out what abilities and ability levels he lies at?
Or restrict him to exclusively use the four things he has proven to use in the manga: Fists, shruiken, sword and Chidori?
How can you assume he can do more? You see, you are just assuming. Proof is proof, assumptions are just that, assumptions.
Shh, you're wasting time. If Sasuke was stated to be chuunin level, then he's chuunin level. Kakashi wasn't even a Tokubetsu Jonin, which could be considered "very very very low level Jonin" as you said. He was a full on Jonin, a rank he earned during wartime, and if Sasuke was Jonin-level material he would have been noticed as Itachi was.
Sasuke's rank is still Genin, and yet, he almost took out eight tails. Now I am not going to delve into a lengthy debate of this happened and that happened, but fact is fact. And Itachi was not a Jounin. Look at Naruto? Should I go on. This rank thing means little in Naruto.
Okay, let's see if I can make my statement clear enough for you:
Naruto displayed both a better understanding of the situation (that there was no guarantee Orochimaru would let them go even if they gave him the scroll) and better combat abilities (fending off a GIANT summon even after Orochimaru gave it permission to eat him, and even assisted it in combat with a wind tech) before being taken out by Orochi's tounge/seal combo. During this engagement Sasuke is either still so fearful that he won't move to assist his teammate, or makes the poor strategic decision of waiting to begin fighting only AFTER Naruto is taken out.
You are, however, denying my reasoning through nothing but insisting my logic is poor.
Now, Naruto shows more potential (at least in pure power growth) than Sasuke pre-Timeskip. He nearly matches Sasuke in their traditional jutsu-clash even after taking a Chidori to the chest, while using either one or two tails, I can't remember. In any case that leaves at least seven more tails of demonic chakra, an insane amount of power. Naruto was more capable than Sasuke both in the Forest of Death (which Orochimaru witnessed) and against Gaara (which he didn't, but as it was a large-scale engagement in the middle of Oro's invasion it would be strange to think he didn't know the results of it), why didn't Orochimaru pick Naruto?
You are wrong when you say that Naruto performed better against Orochimaru compared to Sasuke. Even Orochimaru says that Sasuke is better than Naruto based on both of their showings at the Forest of Death.
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In this panel, Kabuto says
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He says the
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Here Orochimaru once again says that
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as a ninja but praises Sasuke at the Forest of Death and said that
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. Orochimaru gets outsmarted and trapped by Sasuke and he
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. Later on Sasuke manages to burn Orochimaru and if Oro wasn't immortal,
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. Bare in mind Orochimaru was considered a prodigy and a kage level Sannin shinobi even before he gained immortality. Then Oro comments on
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at such a young age. So not only are you wrong in saying Naruto was better than Sasuke during that time frame but you are wrong about kid Kakashi being so good when he needed to be saved against fodder jounin.
This is reasonable, although it has to be said that Kakashi is both more intelligent than Sasuke and very familiar with Uchiha Katon-style techniques. He is on a team with Obito, remember, who's surprisingly capable once he gets over himself. I see him either countering Gai-style (roundhouse kick to the FACE) or just melting into the woods and trying to close while Sasuke is momentarily off-guard.
No kid Kakashi is not more intelligent than Sasuke. Sasuke shits on him when it comes to intellect. Don't compare the noob kid Kakashi who has average intellect to current Kakashi who has Shikamaru level of intellect. The two are completely different. I already said Sasuke loses if there are places to hide but in an open field at long range, Sasuke wins.
Here are Sasuke's Intelligence Feats
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to pass the writing portion of the test before anyone else including the likes of Sakura, Shikamaru, Shino, Neji, Temari, etc. all of whom are considered smart.
During the beginning of the forest of death, Sasuke managed to realize that the real Naruto had gone missing and that
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Then Sasuke
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and realized the real Naruto was missing again because the fake Naruto actually gave the right password. Even Sakura was surprised.
Kid Kakashi's Dumbness
On the contrary, kid Kakashi is pretty dumb. He kills his own team mate so despite his "great" senses, he mistakes his team mate for an enemy.
Adult Kakashi tells some random chick that he
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.
Obito repeatedly
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.
Also kid Kakashi was going to make the dumb mistake of abandoning Rin when she got captured but kid Sasuke would sacrifice his life to save Naruto or Sakura.
As to the "having to be saved" thing, you have a point, but there's also other details that should be clarified. The Iwa Stealth-jounin was obviously gunning for Kakashi as the bigger threat, as when he was discovered he didn't go for Obito, who was closer. Kakashi seems to have been the target all along. They do luck out in Obito awakening the Sharingan then, as Kakashi sensing the enemy (and Obito reacting in time) seems unlikely while he was distracted and in pain.
Minato did save Kakashi from impaling himself on the actual Iwa Clone-jounin, but as regards to the kunai toss thing it seems more like this is a well used tactic between the two than anything else. They have certainly worked together long enough for it, and Kakashi's reaction to the volley (and how it's dealt with) supports the theory. He's not thinking 'shitshitSHIT KUNAI!?!' but rather something like: Minato will deal with these, I'll use them to figure out exactly where our opponents are and deal with them'.
Yet Sasuke was able to defeat three Zabuza clones who happens to be much stronger than the jounin that kid Kakashi was fighting unless of course you think part 1 Kakashi is weaker than kid Kakashi.
^ Again with the jounin comment. It proves what at this battle scenario? He lost poorly to another jounin. He was obviously a very very low tier Jounin then,
When you yourself put Kid Kakashi at "very very low Jounin level" (> Tokubetsu Jonin) and Genma stated that Kid Sasuke was at Chuunin level *shrugs*. I mean after you contradict yourself doesn't that mean the debate is over? :flaw:
You are wrong when you say that Naruto performed better against Orochimaru compared to Sasuke. Even Orochimaru says that Sasuke is better than Naruto based on both of their showings at the Forest of Death.
You must be registered for see images
In this panel, Kabuto says
You must be registered for see links
He says the
You must be registered for see links
Here Orochimaru once again says that
You must be registered for see links
as a ninja but praises Sasuke at the Forest of Death and said that
You must be registered for see links
. Orochimaru gets outsmarted and trapped by Sasuke and he
You must be registered for see links
. Later on Sasuke manages to burn Orochimaru and if Oro wasn't immortal,
You must be registered for see links
. Bare in mind Orochimaru was considered a prodigy and a kage level Sannin shinobi even before he gained immortality. Then Oro comments on
You must be registered for see links
at such a young age. So not only are you wrong in saying Naruto was better than Sasuke during that time frame but you are wrong about kid Kakashi being so good when he needed to be saved against fodder jounin.
No kid Kakashi is not more intelligent than Sasuke. Sasuke shits on him when it comes to intellect. Don't compare the noob kid Kakashi who has average intellect to current Kakashi who has Shikamaru level of intellect. The two are completely different. I already said Sasuke loses if there are places to hide but in an open field at long range, Sasuke wins.
Here are Sasuke's Intelligence Feats
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to pass the writing portion of the test before anyone else including the likes of Sakura, Shikamaru, Shino, Neji, Temari, etc. all of whom are considered smart.
During the beginning of the forest of death, Sasuke managed to realize that the real Naruto had gone missing and that
You must be registered for see links
Then Sasuke
You must be registered for see links
and realized the real Naruto was missing again because the fake Naruto actually gave the right password. Even Sakura was surprised.
Kid Kakashi's Dumbness
On the contrary, kid Kakashi is pretty dumb. He kills his own team mate so despite his "great" senses, he mistakes his team mate for an enemy.
Adult Kakashi tells some random chick that he
You must be registered for see links
.
Obito repeatedly
You must be registered for see links
.
Also kid Kakashi was going to make the dumb mistake of abandoning Rin when she got captured but kid Sasuke would sacrifice his life to save Naruto or Sakura.
Sasuke happened to be Orochimaru's and Gaara's prime target yet you don't give him credit where it is due but you defend Kakashi non stop.
Yet Sasuke was able to defeat three Zabuza clones who happens to be much stronger than the jounin that kid Kakashi was fighting unless of course you think part 1 Kakashi is weaker than kid Kakashi.
I never said Sasuke beats Kakashi if they are on the same playing field. I'm just refuting the crap that some people think kid Kakashi shits on kid Sasuke low-mid difficulty. I'm also trying to prove to Kakashi fans/fanboys that Kakashi was no stronger than low jounin level if 16 years later, he was barely high jounin.
The distance, location, knowledge all contribute to who wins and the OP didn't leave anything so I can't say who wins. I go with Kakashi since he is probably a bit faster, better in taijutsu and has better instincts.
When you yourself put Kid Kakashi at "very very low Jounin level" (> Tokubetsu Jonin) and Genma stated that Kid Sasuke was at Chuunin level *shrugs*. I mean after you contradict yourself doesn't that mean the debate is over?
That pimp smilie was the argument winner. Do you have reading problems? Did you bother to read any comment I posted on this ranks thing you keep bringing up over and over again?
He was unimpressive according to you, when nothing in the manga suggests that. Since it isn't there, I'm not going to take your word for it, hence this wall of text is unreliable, and pointless for me.
Full-on ignoring my arguments does not make them go away, nor prove your points at all. It would be pointless for you to read it if you've decided beforehand that it's wrong, but that would make debating with you, and you debating me, entirely pointless. Surely it can't be the case?
Because your logic and the ensuing reasoning is poor. Orochimaru went for the KG and the fact that he saw great potential in Sasuke. That is set in stone as far as the manga plot points are concerned. Whatever he threw at Sasuke was to test his worth, and he pulled through. Where does this put your reasoning then?
"My logic being poor" doesn't mean you should ignore what I'm saying, rather you should find reasonable evidence or arguments to counter it. Orochimaru went for the KG. What Sasuke went through was objectively LESS than what Naruto did in the Forest of Death. Naruto performed better than Sasuke in every battle since the Forest, except the VotE. I've already explained, factually and from Orochimaru's viewpoint, why Naruto would be ignored in favour of Sasuke EVEN IF HE WAS THE BETTER CHOICE.
Also, why would he even go for Sasuke at that point when he wanted Itachi? We don't know when that event took place. It's safe to assume that those were the early days of Itachi at Akastsuki and Orochimaru left way back when the group was originally formed. Now if I am to go by time-lines then Sasuke was not even 10 then when this incident took place. Orochimaru had no way of knowing that Sasuke even had a sharingen to begin with. He went after him at the exams because he saw potential. Deny it all you want; your second-rate vessel points are without any weight whatsoever.
Yeah, I agree that it seems likely that Orochimaru wouldn't be able to resist the temptation of the Sharingan for long. Which is actually good supporting evidence for many of my points, why would Oro risk the wrath of NINE S-RANK SHINOBI, one or more of which he has already indirectly acknowledged as stronger than him due to accepting to serve under him, just for the Sharingan? This points to LOGIC BEING ABANDONED when Orochimaru is confronted with the Sharingan. It's arguable that Orochimaru didn't even consider Minato his superior, as he left the village and refused to serve under the man.
Orochimaru went after Sasuke to a large degree because he was determined to get the Sharingan, and because going after Itachi would have been suicide. Orochimaru fears death more than anything.
How would you know my points are illogical if you refuse to read them?
Kindly refer to those links again. I am not going to post a wall of text to go at this again. The manga put a lot of emphesis on Gaara's Absolute Defense and the shocked expressions of everyone, including the siblings, Orochimaru, and The Third Hokage. All this was done for a reason. Just because you are choosing to ignore it, doesn't add to your Kid Kakashi > Kid Sasuke points. They just don't.
The reason for this largely has to do with why almost everything Sasuke does in Part 1 (and to a lesser degree, in Shippuden) is followed by gasps of astonishment and adoration: To set the limits for what ordinary shinobi are capable of, and to set him up as an antagonist for Naruto. Sasuke IS an exceptional ninja, just not quite as much as Kakashi at this age.
I notice you've stopped saying that Kakashi's Chidori is self-evidently weaker.
Sasuke's rank is still Genin, and yet, he almost took out eight tails. Now I am not going to delve into a lengthy debate of this happened and that happened, but fact is fact. And Itachi was not a Jounin. Look at Naruto? Should I go on. This rank thing means little in Naruto.
Promotion age while the system is still in place (WHY THE **** WOULD SASUKE OR ITACHI BE PROMOTED POST-DESERTION?) has a lot to say. Name one case where early promotion hasn't been indicative of superior skills.
Promotion age while the system is still in place (WHY THE **** WOULD SASUKE OR ITACHI BE PROMOTED POST-DESERTION?) has a lot to say. Name one case where early promotion hasn't been indicative of superior skills.
Shikamaru being promoted chunin yet he was weaker than Temari, Gaara, Kankuro, Sasuke, Neji, Lee, etc. The funny thing is, people say that Shikamaru can beat Temari despite Temari having to save Shikamaru at the end of part 1, no different from Minato and Obito having to save Kakashi.
What about Ino getting promoted to chunin during the time skip yet no one other than Shikamaru got promoted during the part 1 chunin exams despite the fact they were all stronger than current Ino. What other examples do you want? Tenten being promoted to chunin despite the fact she was weaker than part 1 Temari who didn't get promoted. Rank doesn't mean squat!!!
I never said Sasuke beats Kakashi if they are on the same playing field. I'm just refuting the crap that some people think kid Kakashi shits on kid Sasuke low-mid difficulty. I'm also trying to prove to Kakashi fans/fanboys that Kakashi was no stronger than low jounin level if 16 years later, he was barely high jounin.
The distance, location, knowledge all contribute to who wins and the OP didn't leave anything so I can't say who wins. I go with Kakashi since he is probably a bit faster, better in taijutsu and has better instincts.
That pimp smilie was the argument winner. Do you have reading problems? Did you bother to read any comment I posted on this ranks thing you keep bringing up over and over again?
Woop. I did, but the fact that you contradicted yourself by ranking Kakashi in the first place still stands. Note how Genma implies that Sasuke was 'Chuunin level', meaning that he possesses skills that an average Chuunin would have (this is of course excluding the cursed seal, Genma didn't witness that)
Shikamaru being promoted chunin yet he was weaker than Temari, Gaara, Kankuro, Sasuke, Neji, Lee, etc. The funny thing is, people say that Shikamaru can beat Temari despite Temari having to save Shikamaru at the end of part 1, no different from Minato and Obito having to save Kakashi.
What about Ino getting promoted to chunin during the time skip yet no one other than Shikamaru got promoted during the part 1 chunin exams despite the fact they were all stronger than current Ino. What other examples do you want? Tenten being promoted to chunin despite the fact she was weaker than part 1 Temari who didn't get promoted. Rank doesn't mean squat!!!
Full-on ignoring my arguments does not make them go away, nor prove your points at all. It would be pointless for you to read it if you've decided beforehand that it's wrong, but that would make debating with you, and you debating me, entirely pointless. Surely it can't be the case?
I am not ignoring any of your comments, I'm just not moved by their hypothetical nature. I am giving you a leeway of sorts to at least come up with something.
No it isn't, I suppose.
"My logic being poor" doesn't mean you should ignore what I'm saying, rather you should find reasonable evidence or arguments to counter it. Orochimaru went for the KG. What Sasuke went through was objectively LESS than what Naruto did in the Forest of Death. Naruto performed better than Sasuke in every battle since the Forest, except the VotE. I've already explained, factually and from Orochimaru's viewpoint, why Naruto would be ignored in favour of Sasuke EVEN IF HE WAS THE BETTER CHOICE.
Look at Icelerate's post. He countered all these points scan by scan. Naruto in no way, was a better choice. I have no idea what you are even basing this on. Again, I am not ignoring your points, but that doesn't mean I have to absolutely agree with them.
Yeah, I agree that it seems likely that Orochimaru wouldn't be able to resist the temptation of the Sharingan for long. Which is actually good supporting evidence for many of my points, why would Oro risk the wrath of NINE S-RANK SHINOBI, one or more of which he has already indirectly acknowledged as stronger than him due to accepting to serve under him, just for the Sharingan? This points to LOGIC BEING ABANDONED when Orochimaru is confronted with the Sharingan. It's arguable that Orochimaru didn't even consider Minato his superior, as he left the village and refused to serve under the man.
Orochimaru went after Sasuke to a large degree because he was determined to get the Sharingan, and because going after Itachi would have been suicide. Orochimaru fears death more than anything.
How would you know my points are illogical if you refuse to read them?
I read every single line, and then respond. I am not some arrogant jackass who wouldn't even give another person's view point a chance. But you are completely brushing aside all the facts related to Sasuke's potential and Orochimaru's personal interest in his potential as a superior ninja.
The reason for this largely has to do with why almost everything Sasuke does in Part 1 (and to a lesser degree, in Shippuden) is followed by gasps of astonishment and adoration: To set the limits for what ordinary shinobi are capable of, and to set him up as an antagonist for Naruto. Sasuke IS an exceptional ninja, just not quite as much as Kakashi at this age.
I notice you've stopped saying that Kakashi's Chidori is self-evidently weaker.
I have stopped saying it, because I hate repeating things again and again for no apparent reason. About Kakashi being a superior ninja; then I believe otherwise given their feats with Chidori and the opponents they took on.
So, you're saying that Kid jounin Kakashi can use and can only use his fists, a sword, shruiken and the Chidori? Because he has fewer manga panels?
You seem to think that ASSUMPTION = WRONG. I shouldn't have to explain why that is moronic and infantile.
No, but his other techniques surely would not measure up to these feats. Surely you are intelligent enough to at least assume that? Or am I wrong?
Promotion age while the system is still in place (WHY THE **** WOULD SASUKE OR ITACHI BE PROMOTED POST-DESERTION?) has a lot to say. Name one case where early promotion hasn't been indicative of superior skills.
This is a moot point. Itachi effortlessly took on Kakashi fast-forward 13 years along with Kuranai, yet both of them were high tier jounins. What is your point?
You are wrong when you say that Naruto performed better against Orochimaru compared to Sasuke. Even Orochimaru says that Sasuke is better than Naruto based on both of their showings at the Forest of Death.
When character opinions and manga panels don't coincide I tend to go with the manga panels. Especially in a case of such obvious bias as Orochimaru and the Sharingan.
And Kabuto went on to get a Rasengan in the chest. Am I the only one to think that Sasuke at that point wouldn't have won (well, stalemated) against Kabuto in that battle?
Does him repeating himself make it more true? Kabuto's penchant for boasting and underestimation of Naruto combine to make about HALF the things he even SAYS demonstratably wrong even two or three PANELS later. Here, let me show you:
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Here's Kabuto saying Naruto can't win since he can't stand. What, exactly, does Naruto proceed to do?
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Here's Kabuto wondering what's happening when Naruto has CLEARLY rammed a Rasengan into his gut. Naruto has showed him the technique before and even taken the trouble to demonstrate how to form it right in FRONT of him. All he had to do to escape would be to LET GO OF A KUNAI, but Kabuto clearly messed up BAD with the superglue that day.
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Here's Kabuto stating that Naruto has no chance to survive. He later adds the modifier "on his own power", remembering Tsunade is in the area. Naruto might have survived even without her (Kyuubi heals a punctured lung effortlessly).
So, yeah. Kabuto is a bad source for objective statements.
So Orochimaru is praising Sasuke for an ability granted solely by his awakening of the Sharingan? Shouldn't he be praising Haku for that? Credit where credit is due, after all.
Orochi was standing still AND WAITING FOR SASUKE TO DO STUFF for most of that fight. If "trapping" a mostly stationary target is a praiseworthy achievement, then I just trapped my chair. Glorify me with your accolades. It's mostly stationary because I sometimes move it.
So Oro thinks Forest-of-Death-Sasuke is stronger than Killed-His-Clan-Itachi. Tell me more about how he's an objective source. The only proven interaction between Oro and Itachi at this point is when Itachi forced him to cut off his hand and desert Akatsuki. This is probably their only interaction, as Itachi was a nonentity while Oro was still in Konoha, and had barely even joined Akatsuki before Oro turned on him.
On the other hand, it's a very smart thing to say if you want to butter a young and prideful Uchiha up for betrayal.
So not only are you wrong in saying Naruto was better than Sasuke during that time frame but you are wrong about kid Kakashi being so good when he needed to be saved against fodder jounin.
No kid Kakashi is not more intelligent than Sasuke. Sasuke shits on him when it comes to intellect. Don't compare the noob kid Kakashi who has average intellect to current Kakashi who has Shikamaru level of intellect. The two are completely different. I already said Sasuke loses if there are places to hide but in an open field at long range, Sasuke wins.
Kakashi didn't develop genius as a teenager. It was always present. Kakashi's actions when he has the YELLOW FLASH available as a fall-back are very different than when he doesn't, as he performs admirably even agains several jounin.
You are really, seriously stating that Sasuke is VASTLY superior to Kid Kakashi in intelligence?
to pass the writing portion of the test before anyone else including the likes of Sakura, Shikamaru, Shino, Neji, Temari, etc. all of whom are considered smart.
It was shown on panel before them (he's a more important character) but there's no proof it was before or after their respective actions. Sakura didn't need to cheat, how is his achievement more impressive than hers?
Copying someone who seems to know what they're doing is not an intelligence feat. It's exactly what the Sharingan is used for. (MS is slightly different). He would be unable to answer the test if he couldn't get a clear line-of-sight, unlike almost all of the others you mentioned.
He realized that Naruto would be unable to remember weird poetry. Good job. Honestly, it's more apparent that Orochimaru obviously didn't even REGISTER Naruto at that point if he was unable to realize something like that.
This is pure speculation on your part (and deliberately engineered to make a character look bad) , so let me answer with some of my own. And it's more logical, even.
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The two Mist Nin were disappointed that Kakashi killed Rin. We know next to nothing about her. Why were Rin and Kakashi so far afield from Konoha, without any obvious purpose?
Rin could have been an enemy agent. She was highly placed in Konoha (student of the Hokage) and could easily gain access to any number of secrets.
So here's the theory. Rin was a double-agent, either through forced means (kidnapping of family or the like) or through free will. She escapes Konoha with a secret (maybe even the extended information on the Hiraishin) and Kakashi realizes it. Maybe she's been acting off lately, maybe she's been asking weird questions. Maybe he just doesn't want to leave her side after Obito's death. He tracks her, catches her and forces her to reveal the reason why she left. Heartbroken, he is forced to kill her to protect Minato/the village as a whole. With her last breath, she conveys her regret over forcing him to do this, just as the Mist is about to reach them. Kakashi's Mangekyou unlocks from him killing his most precious person in the world.
So, is it reasonable? Posting this as a separate thread, btw.
His point of view has changed drastically, of course he would say something like that. Any of us would say the same thing about our younger selves (perhaps even you will after seeing so many of the errors in your post pointed out). And in any case he's not talking about his intelligence, he's talking about values, life choices.
You are using Obito, calling someone an idiot, as evidence in a versus thread. Kid Obito. Calling someone an idiot.
It's more of an effort to convey that he disagrees with him (about MANY things) than anything else, certainly not with the intent of saying that his intelligence is subpar. Doing so would in effect be calling himself mentally handicapped.
Also kid Kakashi was going to make the dumb mistake of abandoning Rin when she got captured but kid Sasuke would sacrifice his life to save Naruto or Sakura.
It wasn't, technically, a mistake according to either the Shinobi Rules or Kakashi's own world-view at the time. And since we're talking about Sasuke at about the Valley of the End level, but without the CS, I've no doubt he'd have killed her/him himself.
Yet Sasuke was able to defeat three Zabuza clones who happens to be much stronger than the jounin that kid Kakashi was fighting unless of course you think part 1 Kakashi is weaker than kid Kakashi.
Pardon me if I seem rude, but HAVE YOU EVEN READ THIS THREAD? HOW MANY TIMES HAVE THE STRENGTH LEVELS OF WATER AND SHADOW CLONES BEEN EXPLAINED BY NOW?
I'm sorry if you are offended by any of this, it's just that a lot of what I've just written has been discussed extensively, and a lot of what you wrote was unreasonable. So I chose humour to keep things fresh for myself and others.
(Making jokes is also a better answer than RAGE when dealing with idiocy over the internet.)
EDIT: Yes, I just compared Orochimaru with a chair.
Shikamaru being promoted chunin yet he was weaker than Temari, Gaara, Kankuro, Sasuke, Neji, Lee, etc. The funny thing is, people say that Shikamaru can beat Temari despite Temari having to save Shikamaru at the end of part 1, no different from Minato and Obito having to save Kakashi.
What about Ino getting promoted to chunin during the time skip yet no one other than Shikamaru got promoted during the part 1 chunin exams despite the fact they were all stronger than current Ino. What other examples do you want? Tenten being promoted to chunin despite the fact she was weaker than part 1 Temari who didn't get promoted. Rank doesn't mean squat!!!
A Chuunin isn't a Chuunin based solely on combat abilities. Shikamaru is far more mature and strategic than any of these people. "Strong" is a variable term in combat in any case, just because Tsunade can break more stuff than most anyone with a punch doesn't mean she wins every battle. Shikamaru's and Temari's relative strengths aren't really relevant (though my money's on Shika) and two people are better than one in most circumstances. Taking someone out while they're solely focused on something else is hardly a feat at all.
We've seen little or nothing of Ino during actual combat (when SHE'S fighting, I mean) and, again, combat isn't everything. ALL of the members of the first Exams being stronger than Ino, prepared to back that up?
Again i reiterate: Chuunin promotions aren't based on strength. For the same reason that Chuck Norris isn't the President of the United States (or at least a Senator), leadership, intellect, morality, decision making, all of these and more are needed too.
And my original question was about early promotion, which you've neatly sidestepped.
I am not ignoring any of your comments, I'm just not moved by their hypothetical nature. I am giving you a leeway of sorts to at least come up with something.
Look at Icelerate's post. He countered all these points scan by scan. Naruto in no way, was a better choice. I have no idea what you are even basing this on. Again, I am not ignoring your points, but that doesn't mean I have to absolutely agree with them.
I read every single line, and then respond. I am not some arrogant jackass who wouldn't even give another person's view point a chance. But you are completely brushing aside all the facts related to Sasuke's potential and Orochimaru's personal interest in his potential as a superior ninja.
Glad to hear it, you insinuated that you didn't in the previous post.
I don't deny that Sasuke has extraordinary potential, rather that Kakashi (if the MS is ignored) has far more. But repeated comments related to Orochimaru's judgement on Sasuke could have shortened my temper to the point where I may not have been quite clear.
Orochimaru is a biased character. This is undeniable, but Sasuke does have potential.
I have stopped saying it, because I hate repeating things again and again for no apparent reason. About Kakashi being a superior ninja; then I believe otherwise given their feats with Chidori and the opponents they took on.
They may not be, but some are surely at least close by. And even if they arent even a little thing could decide a match. I shall ignore the slight to my intelligence, as I have been at least equally rude.
This is a moot point. Itachi effortlessly took on Kakashi fast-forward 13 years along with Kuranai, yet both of them were high tier jounins. What is your point?
Your repeated statements of rank not meaning anything (and sometimes that it does) and then following it up with people who've been outside of the ranking system for YEARS seems a bit illogical. I protest Kurenai being refered to as a high-tier jounin, she was stated to just have been promoted and has barely been shown even adequate in combat. And the Mangekyou Sharingan, when the opposing party has no info on it, is a match-finishing move.
A Chuunin isn't a Chuunin based solely on combat abilities. Shikamaru is far more mature and strategic than any of these people. "Strong" is a variable term in combat in any case, just because Tsunade can break more stuff than most anyone with a punch doesn't mean she wins every battle. Shikamaru's and Temari's relative strengths aren't really relevant (though my money's on Shika) and two people are better than one in most circumstances. Taking someone out while they're solely focused on something else is hardly a feat at all.
I hope you back this up because how do you compare maturity levels? Sure Shikamaru is more mature than most of the characters but he acts pretty dumb in front of girls/woman. Exactly, you said that strength is just a variable term in which case, you just agreed with me that Kakashi's rank of jounin means squat! What does Tsunade's "physical" strength have to do with anything? You are sidestepping the important issue, at least half of the rookies present at the chunin exams were more well rounded and versatile than him for the most part yet he got promoted for just his smarts. If Tsunade is Hokage and Kakashi isn't, it doesn't mean that Kakashi can't just kamui Tsunade in a VS thread. Shikamaru's and Temari's relative strength does matter because it shows us that rank means nothing in this manga. Why bet on Shika, he'd get murdered horribly? Unless you are talking about him as a support character, in which case I still disagree. I'd rather have a character that can protect me and not run out of chakra. Two people are better at what exactly? I don't understand what you are saying. We are only talking about Sasuke VS Kakashi which is a 1 VS 1 fight anyway.
We've seen little or nothing of Ino during actual combat (when SHE'S fighting, I mean) and, again, combat isn't everything. ALL of the members of the first Exams being stronger than Ino, prepared to back that up?
Again i reiterate: Chuunin promotions aren't based on strength. For the same reason that Chuck Norris isn't the President of the United States (or at least a Senator), leadership, intellect, morality, decision making, all of these and more are needed too.
And my original question was about early promotion, which you've neatly sidestepped.
Most of them are since Sasuke, Lee, and Neji have better taijutsu than her. The long ranged ones such as Shikamaru, Temari, Shino and Kankuro have what it takes to put her down. I know what it takes to be a chunin and jounin but neither kid Kakashi nor part 1 Shikamaru fulfilled the categories you just mentioned.
I'm really not sure why Sasuke > Naruto comes in to this...
Am I missing something, does Naruto = Kid Kakashi? Because...no...really really no...
Sasuke got to chunin level in strength by training with none other than Kakashi himself, who did Kid Kakashi train with to get to JOUNIN level? Because his dad killed himself and he obviously didn't really have any friends because he was a major ****.
So it's safe to assume that he pretty much got to Jounin level by himself.
By himself Sasuke would still be at whiny bitch level.
Kid Sasuke never invented a technique unless you count the recycled technique of Lee's which was hardly ground breakingly good, let alone made an elemental nature technique.
That there shows that Kakashi is much smarter, able to work out his own original technique with nothing to base it on is pretty fantastic.
Hilarious how Kakashi killing Rin = Sasuke > Kakashi.
We don't even know what happened there.
Also Zabuza kind of sucks him being better than the Jounin Kakashi fought is baseless. All Jounins are roughly similar in terms of power especially Taijutsu based ones.
Zabuza for all intense purposes was a weakling without Haku and his Hidden Mist he was utter crap.
And it's not like Sasuke even beat him.
Not to mention the Jounin Kakashi fought would likely know about the Sharingan and how to fight against it whereas Zabuza didn't he didn't know what he was getting in to.
Fireballs are never hitting Kid Kakashi...
Unless they're extremely huge but even then most likely still no and then Sasuke's chakra is gone.
, they're stubborn.
