[Discussion] So Madara died 16 years ago?

[captainEO]

- And that's why Kabuto completed him to 'beyond his prime'.

I think when Kabuto said "Prime" he was referring to EMS Madara, that Valley of the End fight specifically. And we know that he didn't have Rinnegan at that point.

By "beyond prime", I'm sure he was referring to Rinnegan + Hashirama's DNA/face/techniques. Though, Madara quickly shot that down by saying that Kabuto didn't give him anything. He awoke Rinnegan by himself.

- Nagato either; gained Uchiha DNA and not the eyes themselves, awakened it naturally by himself (making Tobi a liar) or Kishi is going to retcon that statement. Kishimoto already confirmed that Tobi and Madara know eachother, so; Madara lived until Kakashi Gaiden (if Tobi is 100% Obito) or Tobi simply isn't Obito in mind or soul.

Kishi can only retcon that statement, because giving Nagato some Uchiha DNA is futile. That's no different from any other Uchiha right? There's no realistic way for Nagato to skip 1 tomoe and go straight to Rinnegan. And in the manga, Kishi establishes that Sharingan-->Rinnegan is unique to Uchiha due their elder son lineage. So Nagato being Uzumaki shouldn't improve his chances of acquiring Rinnegan or grant it to him instantly because they aren't related.

So that can't work right? Because Nagato had grown up completely by Kakashi Gaiden time, that's a significant amount of time which would make Madara's own statement false - "I died shortly after awakening these eyes"

 

[OnPoint]

I think when Kabuto said "Prime" he was referring to EMS Madara, that Valley of the End fight specifically. And we know that he didn't have Rinnegan at that point.

By "beyond prime", I'm sure he was referring to Rinnegan + Hashirama's DNA/face/techniques. Though, Madara quickly shot that down by saying that Kabuto didn't give him anything. He awoke Rinnegan by himself.

Er, Madara said he awakened it shortly before he died; therefore, he must've been either really old or really injured when he gained that particular dojutsu. Thus, Madara being revived in a youthful/healthy body whilst wielding the Rinnegan = completed beyond his prime (his prime would've been just the EMS, since youthful EMS Madara > old/sick Rinnegan Madara).

Kishi can only retcon that statement, because giving Nagato some Uchiha DNA is futile. That's no different from any other Uchiha right? There's no realistic way for Nagato to skip 1 tomoe and go straight to Rinnegan. And in the manga, Kishi establishes that Sharingan-->Rinnegan is unique to Uchiha due their elder son lineage. So Nagato being Uzumaki shouldn't improve his chances of acquiring Rinnegan or grant it to him instantly because they aren't related.

So that can't work right? Because Nagato had grown up completely by Kakashi Gaiden time, that's a significant amount of time which would make Madara's own statement false - "I died shortly after awakening these eyes"

Kishimoto can hardly retcon at statement he made in person, especially since it was made after the Tobi-Nagato-Rinnegan statement. Regardless of manga logic interms of a person awakening the Rinnegan, Madara knew Nagato but he also knew Tobi. One statement is going to get retconned, and I doubt it's going to be the 'Tobi and Madara know eachother'; rather, the 'Nagato was given the Rinnegan' or 'Madara awakened them shortly before he died'.

Orrrrrr

This can all be explained by the 'shortly' bit being seen as 'lots and lots of years'.

 

[captainEO]

Er, Madara said he awakened it shortly before he died; therefore, he must've been either really old or really injured when he gained that particular dojutsu. Thus, Madara being revived in a youthful/healthy body whilst wielding the Rinnegan = completed beyond his prime (his prime would've been just the EMS, since youthful EMS Madara > old/sick Rinnegan Madara).

Nah, I think you're getting it mixed up. At this point, I doubt we'll agree about this part. I'll just counter 1 last time.

Edo Tensei is a jutsu that summons one in the state they were in right before they died, exactly at that moment.

Hence, Itachi still had his eyes, Deidara had a physical form.

Madara's apperance matches the way he looked at death. Meaning he was young (relatively at least), he never reached Hiruzen's age, hence he doesn't appear like that.

Also, Kabuto never knew that Madara had awakened Rinnegan, there's proof this - it's why Madara responds, "no you didn't give me this power, I awakened these eyes before I died". Kabuto had assumed that Rinnegan was his doing.

The only Madara Kabuto knows is the EMS Madara, or Madara from his "Golden Years".
The only modification Kabuto made to Madara was Hashirama's cells and he assumed that he gave him Rinnegan somehow, hence "beyond prime", Rinnegan + Hashirama's cells/techniques > EMS alone.

Kishimoto can hardly retcon at statement he made in person, especially since it was made after the Tobi-Nagato-Rinnegan statement. Regardless of manga logic interms of a person awakening the Rinnegan, Madara knew Nagato but he also knew Tobi. One statement is going to get retconned, and I doubt it's going to be the 'Tobi and Madara know eachother'; rather, the 'Nagato was given the Rinnegan'.

Either way, Kishi has f*cked up the story.

It's either Kishi entirely screws up the entire mythology behind the series - the Sage, his sons + lineage. Not to mention the entire nature of Dojutsu, Edo Tensei's working etc.
by extending Madara's timeline to the last Shinobi war

Or paints Minato, Itachi and several other characters to be idiots. Ruins timeline with inconsistent ages and story events. And finds an implausible way for Obito to have drastically improved in skill within 1 year.
by not extending Madara's timeline to the last Shinobi war

 

[OnPoint]

Edo Tensei is a jutsu that summons one in the state they were in right before they died, exactly at that moment.

Hence, Itachi still had his eyes, Deidara had a physical form.

Madara's apperance matches the way he looked at death. Meaning he was young (relatively at least), he never reached Hiruzen's age, hence he doesn't appear like that.

Also, Kabuto never knew that Madara had awakened Rinnegan, there's proof this - it's why Madara responds, "no you didn't give me this power, I awakened these eyes before I died". Kabuto had assumed that Rinnegan was his doing.

The only Madara Kabuto knows is the EMS Madara, or Madara from his "Golden Years".
The only modification Kabuto made to Madara was Hashirama's cells and he assumed that he gave him Rinnegan somehow, hence "beyond prime", Rinnegan + Hashirama's cells/techniques > EMS alone.

See, that right there has never been stated. Where are you getting that notion from? If Itachi had his eyes, why was he not half blind? Why was Nagato's white striken hair (caused by using too much chakra) not returned to normal, or his sickly body? That is a common misconception regarding Edo Tensei since the manga has never made it clear whether or not what you've claimed is the case.

Explained in detail

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.

 

[captainEO]

See, that right there has never been stated. Where are you getting that notion from? If Itachi had his eyes, why was he not half blind? Why was Nagato's white striken hair (caused by using too much chakra) not returned to normal, or his sickly body? That is a common misconception regarding Edo Tensei since the manga has never made it clear whether or not what you've claimed is the case.

Maybe.

But it doesn't change the inconsistency.

Had Madara lived till the last Shinobi War, he'd have seen Nagato grow up completely. Nagato would have been older than Minato at that point.

When he was revived, Madara referred to Nagato as a brat. Can you imagine referring to someone Minato's age or above as a brat? That makes no sense.
"That brat has finally grown up", "finally grown up", "grown up"

According to that Madara certainly died long before the last Shinobi war (before Nagato matured) but Kishi may retcon that.

Though I do know that Madara wasn't surprised by his appearance or state. He expected to look like that (he thought he was revived using Rinnegan), which leads me to believe that Madara resembled the way he looked right now at the time of his death.

 

[OnPoint]

Maybe.

But it doesn't change the inconsistency.

Had Madara had lived till the last Shinobi War, he'd have seen Nagato grow up completely. Nagato would have been older than Minato at that point.

When he was revived, Madara referred to Nagato as a brat. Can you imagine referring to someone Minato's age or above as a brat? That makes no sense.
"That brat has finally grown up", "finally grown up, "grown up"

According to that Madara certainly died long before the last Shinobi war (before Nagato matured) but Kishi may retcon that.

Though I do know that Madara wasn't surprised by his appearance or state. He expected to look like that (he thought he was revived using Rinnegan), which leads me to believe that Madara resembled the way he looked right now at the time of his death.

But that goes against what Kishimoto already stated :/ If we go by what you're saying, it is logically impossible for Tobi to be Obito in mind and soul, since he must be a person that Madara was able to contact before his death; by your logic, this event occuring possibly before Obito was even born. I'm not too bothered about the 'brat' comment since it just highlights Madara's arrogance and lack of respect for anyone who isn't Shodai. I maintain that completed beyond his prime meant that he had full access to the Rinnegan whilst possessing a youthful body.

The way I see it, this is what the plot could be:

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Lives on (for many years with some low class sharingan and meets Obito)
- Meets Itachi et al

or

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Has a partner or assistant in the form of Tobi
- Dies
- *Tobi gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Tobi inhabits and takes over Obito's body

* = unconfirmed.

 

[Defendaga]

So that can't work right? Because Nagato had grown up completely by Kakashi Gaiden time, that's a significant amount of time which would make Madara's own statement false - "I died shortly after awakening these eyes"

Unless Madara's using some different form of "shortly after", good point.
I think we'll have to wait for the next few chapters to be able to really make sense of this.

 

[captainEO]

But that goes against what Kishimoto already stated :/ If we go by what you're saying, it is logically impossible for Tobi to be Obito in mind and soul, since he must be a person that Madara was able to contact before his death; by your logic, this event occuring possibly before Obito was even born. I'm not too bothered about the 'brat' comment since it just highlights Madara's arrogance and lack of respect for anyone who isn't Shodai. I maintain that completed beyond his prime meant that he had full access to the Rinnegan whilst possessing a youthful body.

The way I see it, this is what the plot could be:

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
...

Spoiler

- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Lives on (for many years with some low class sharingan and meets Obito)
- Meets Itachi et al

or

- Madara fights Shodai
- Gets DNA
- Awakens Rinnegan
- *Has a partner or assistant in the form of Tobi
- Dies
- *Tobi gives Nagato the Rinnegan
- *Tobi inhabits and takes over Obito's body

* = unconfirmed.

My argument remains valid regardless.

Even if Kishi said it (recently even), Obito and Madara can't know each other according to known events. It creates a plothole, a clear one at that if they do.

At the end of the day, there's no way to continue the plot in a way that will completely satisfy every kink (or gap in logic), it's too late for that. Either way, something will be omitted or altered along the way.

I don't know how Kishi will make up for this one.

 

[OnPoint]

My argument remains valid regardless.

Even if Kishi said it (recently even), Obito and Madara can't know each other according to known events. It creates a plothole, a clear one at that if they do.

At the end of the day, there's no way to continue the plot in a way that will completely satisfy every kink (or gap in logic), it's too late for that. Either way, something will be omitted or altered along the way.

I don't know how Kishi will make up for this one.

It's been pretty much confirmed in the manga also that Madara and Tobi know eachother, since they share the same plan and Madara speaks of 'him':

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So Kishimoto won't just be going against his own word, but what has been shown in the manga aswell.

 

[B00m]

I just want to say this thread is how every thread should be, structured arguments.

Also, I want to say how do we know who Madara is referring to just by simply say "he" and Kabuto saying "his?" Could they not be referring to Zetsu?

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[supino]

Maybe.

But it doesn't change the inconsistency.

Had Madara lived till the last Shinobi War, he'd have seen Nagato grow up completely. Nagato would have been older than Minato at that point.

When he was revived, Madara referred to Nagato as a brat. Can you imagine referring to someone Minato's age or above as a brat? That makes no sense.
"That brat has finally grown up", "finally grown up", "grown up"

According to that Madara certainly died long before the last Shinobi war (before Nagato matured) but Kishi may retcon that.

Though I do know that Madara wasn't surprised by his appearance or state. He expected to look like that (he thought he was revived using Rinnegan), which leads me to believe that Madara resembled the way he looked right now at the time of his death.

doesn't he also refer to Onoki the same way? and i am pretty sure that Kishi could alter the meaning of the statement from a literal one (that is referring to Nagato's age) to a metaphorical one (speaking of Nagato's mentality, abilities, etc); this way he could actually avoid a retcon.

 

[GdaTyler]

in order for him to actually know Obito, let alone train him or be his mentor, then he must have died more recently than previously thought. besides it also explains how Kabuto located his grave, it would had been harder to find the place if it was 35-40 years old.

it could also explain in a way that line Obito used when confronting Minato and the latter asked him if he was Madara and that he couldn't be as Madara was dead.

Spoiler

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I agree totally.

 

[GdaTyler]

Perhaps Madara didn't see Nagato since he gave him the Rinnegan, and when he was reincarnated it was the first time he saw him since the event.