Darn it, was working on my counter to this reply, but now have to go. It was such a good one too. -.-
Will finish it when I come back, oh can anyone tell me what world war was it when Kisame met Madara/Tobi, it's what I was looking for just a while ago, thanks.
Kisame is two years older than Obito and he probably met Tobi(and it was Tobi) when he was 18. So it wouldn't be during a war but about a year after the 9 tailed attack on Konoha. Madara died about 20 years before that though.
If Tobi is using Obito's eye, how does that confirm he's Obito? It seems like the opposite to me; you can't use your OWN Sharingan infinitely without going blind, so it has to be someone elses eyes. So if it's Obito's eye, with EMS, then it isn't Obito. Also... how do you unlock MS without someone elses eyes? Obito clearly hadn't unlocked MS before he died.
considering the timeline version of the arguments, here is what i think of tobi:
when kyubi attacked konoha,
tobi already had Mangekyo sharingan of obito'e eye.
tobi is older than the likes of itachi, kakashi etc.... but younger than danzo, 3rd, koharu etc
tobi is almost the age of 4th or older
by what itachi said to tobi when he joined akatsuki:
tobi knew abt uchiha monument which no one else knew... so he is uchiha classman
he was not directly involved in the uchiha coup
and then:
he knew madara gave rinnegan to nagato
he obtained madara's weapons with which he fought hashirama
he knows what jiraiya and 4th entrusted to naruto
what does he not know???
how did he find out abt 4th????
Random: I think the reason we haven't seen Kakashi's face yet may have something to do with the "masked man" no pun intended, and why his face is still a mystery as well. I think we'll be seeing Kakashi's face after "Tobi" is revealed.
I dont think theyre wrinkles, his face is just messed up.. And he is not using obitos eyes, thats a way for kishi to trick you guys and tobi still protecting his identity. The man still wants to keep his identity a secret, so as kakashi is very smart and tobi knew that kakashi found out his eye and tobis eyes were conected, he made it seem as if he stole obitos eye ... thats all he could say at the moment to not give himself away as obito. Did Izuna knew kakashi?? No, so how come he told him that he still hadnt changed, ..?
I voted for the ramen guy named Teuchi.
I think it´s obvious that he is Tobi, especially
after the new information we gathered after last weeks chapter.
the truth is stupid that guy is tobi .
it shows you've never eaten sushi
he is not an important person you have to leave all the time, besides that tobi is a very thin texture, and is the more a man of age with a larger body
Chinese people always have their eyes closed, so they are portrayed in the anime
the theory that tobi is ramen guy
only a idiot invented to avoid falling into obito is tobi
I think that's not confirmed,
but tobi, knows very well madara,
one thing is certain,what it says -Yami-
that madara did not die with harishama
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orochimaru when he met madara already had good skills
at the time was still a child, That is the reason, why orochimaru knew the truth
maybe then, he met Tobi Madara and left his legacy
may be that's why he knows so much about madara
orochimaru lost interest in reviving Madara and finish the edo tensei
tobi never saw him revive madara concerned
maybe plans changed
that's a minus point for the obito theory and Izuna
The just wanted to have a young body, and a sharingan, but not any sharingan
This would almost, ALMOST work if it weren't for the fact that Madara died shortly after unlocking the Rinnegan. That tears apart your whole theory, because Madara is then dead, and Obito is either not born yet, or so young that he's still in diapers.
Nice try though, this is the best attempted Tobito theory I've ever seen.
Thanks! But I realized one flaw after I wrote it and reread areas of the manga that portray the details
The battle at the Bridge was not a different event or a different ninja war, Its the same event. Their objective was to destroy that bridge. The battle of the "blah blah blah" Bridge was referring to Kakashi, Obito, and Rins mission when they were ambushed by those hidden rock ninja. So when Tobi says he got the eye at the bridge, he really is referring to Obito's other eye. In the last slide of Chapter 244 I think, where it shows the bridge destroyed and Kakashi standing there, It says Kakashi gain the title of Kakashi of the Sharingan. He gained that title after fighting two ninja??!?!?
How does one become a hero because you defeated two minor ninja and lost a comrade????
remember when the 4th hokage fought Tobi the night of Naruto's birth, Tobi didnt know how Minato's Thunder God jutsu worked, he was surprised that he was able to land a blow on him...
Obito was full aware of how Minato's jutsu worked...Tobi had no clue...:sy:
Tobi is not Obito!!!!...
Thats just 1 quick point...there are a few more...
remember when the 4th hokage fought Tobi the night of Naruto's birth, Tobi didnt know how Minato's Thunder God jutsu worked, he was surprised that he was able to land a blow on him...
Obito was full aware of how Minato's jutsu worked...Tobi had no clue...:sy:
Tobi is not Obito!!!!...
Thats just 1 quick point...there are a few more...
Kisame is two years older than Obito and he probably met Tobi(and it was Tobi) when he was 18. So it wouldn't be during a war but about a year after the 9 tailed attack on Konoha. Madara died about 20 years before that though.
I have no proof, but since we know Madara died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan, and that he was the one who probably gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Nagato has to be at least 5 years older than Obito from my guestimation. Anyways, you see my point? Kisame probably met Tobi 10-14 years before the start of Shippuden.
I have no proof, but since we know Madara died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan, and that he was the one who probably gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Nagato has to be at least 5 years older than Obito from my guestimation. Anyways, you see my point? Kisame probably met Tobi 10-14 years before the start of Shippuden.
Sigh…everyone is still going to believe he means “shortly before he died” and not “shortly before he died against Hashirama”, oh well.
Let me start with the strongest point. We see that Tobi tells Kisame that he’s Madara when they first met. And now, we know that he isn’t Madara correct? Lol, don’t you see something strange there? Tobi was trying to gain his trust, why would he lie that day and tell Kisame he’s Madara, and then tell him he’s someone different? So you see, it’s highly unlikely that those two are the same people, the fact that he tells Kisame that he’s Madara, and then shows himself, basically proves that was indeed Madara. From the parts we have seen of Tobi’s face, we can assume he looks nothing Madara. So for Madara to tell Kisame that he’s Madara, and then show his face, and look nothing like Madara, Kisame would have just been….
And even though it's a small clue, when you throw in the fact that his hair was very similar to Madaras, it's even more proof that it was the real Madara that day.
And I do see your point, annnnd I'm trying to make something out of that as I believe it helps me.
Thanks! But I realized one flaw after I wrote it and reread areas of the manga that portray the details
The battle at the Bridge was not a different event or a different ninja war, Its the same event. Their objective was to destroy that bridge. The battle of the "blah blah blah" Bridge was referring to Kakashi, Obito, and Rins mission when they were ambushed by those hidden rock ninja. So when Tobi says he got the eye at the bridge, he really is referring to Obito's other eye. In the last slide of Chapter 244 I think, where it shows the bridge destroyed and Kakashi standing there, It says Kakashi gain the title of Kakashi of the Sharingan. He gained that title after fighting two ninja??!?!?
How does one become a hero because you defeated two minor ninja and lost a comrade????
I actually realized how much the quote "I got it at the battle of the Kannabi bridge entails.
Anyway, my reply to FizzyDrink (Will include what I'm talking about).
Well Madara couldn't HAVE SAID ANYTHING ELSE other than "I unlocked my rinnegan shortly before I died." This is because he already went through a great deal of trouble of tricking the world into believing he died at the battle with Hashirama. If he said anything like, "I unlocked them sometime during my life." Anyone would have become suspicious as to why he never used them against Hashirama, since the power of the rinnegan is known and feared and is certainly enough to be a deciding factor. From there may Kabuto may have even questioned when did he exactly die. Again, if Kabuto hadn't known the truth, he would have assumed that Madara unlocked them before his last fight with Hashirama, correct? And this is what Madara wanted.
"I unlocked them shortly before my death" was the most safe and simple answer he could have given. What else could ha have said knowing that the world believed he died that day, and prior to that, was never known to have rinnegan?
And the rest of your point is based on the assumption that "I unlocked them shortly before my death" means he unlocked them sometime around Nagato's era and then died, and not paying attention that it's actually ambiguous considering he assumed Kabuto believed (Along with the rest of the world) he died at the valley of the end. It also doesn't even make sense really considering Madara's plan to have unlocked them shortly before he died, meaning he was very close to failing, because he wasn't intelligent/skilled enough to do awaken them way before, And this is Madara we are talking about. But meh; I guess it's possible...
Now, onto the more interesting part. Because some of it will clash with this timeline. This is especially for those who thinks "logically".
We know now that Tobi (whoever you may believe he is) obtained his eye at the battle of the kannabi bridge.
So now let me show you this statement from Konan:
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She says, "I wasn't just sitting idly by your side the whole time." This can mean that Tobi never came into the picture with the Akaktsui until after the battle of the kannabi bridge. But..it could also mean he's been there, but never displayed no techs at all, if he did; Konan wouldn't have been so confident that he didn't have another trick up his sleeve. I mean even if she saw it years ago, she seems smart enough that it doesn't mean he no longer has that ability, this is logical, correct?
So now for the sake of argument, let's say Tobi was around Nagato/Konan even before he obtained Obito's eye. He is hanging around a RINNEGAN USER and also Konan, without ever having to show any of his powers or prove himself. I mean during the meeting with Kisame, Yagura, who was a jinchuuriki was being controlled, he was obviously no ordinary Uchiha. Then he formed the akatsui; all S-class criminals, and thus tricked the world into believing he is Madara. Surely Nagato wasn't just gonna let some masked guy with a sharingan come and take control so easily. -.-
Even if he did show some type of powerful genjutsu as a demonstration, how come Konan fought as if he didn't even have genjutsu, especially if it was used to get in? This implies that even though Uchiha is known for genjutsu among other things, she never saw anything notable from him; that required her to take great caution against. And so, such a mediocre Uchiha would never be able to take lead of Nagato and Konan. o.o
Now look at this statement. In the same conext he's speaking about "giving Nagato the rinnegan", which most believe Madara gave to him, and I agree. He says "he spurred Yahiko to form the akakstui". Why would it be so hard to believe that Madara was the one who did this? So far, the things Tobi have spoke about Madara when claiming to be him, have been true; Madara did them, Why not this?
And you know what this means, Madara could have very well lived a while after meeting Nagato.
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Now, onto something else. Kishi is actually giving us lots of clues, we know that Tobi collects sharingans, now we know that he obtained his eye about the same time as Kakashis. Sooo...he gets Obito's eye, 5-6 years later, he knows how to use it effectively. He help kills the uchiha clan, about 8 years later, doesn't know how to use even one of them? lol. Surely he wouldn't hesitate to use extra MS's if he could. So he's only been shown to use the MS of Obito's eye, why?
So now, if you think the timeline puts Obito too far away for Madara, you leave all these holes open. And actually, the correct timeline puts Obito and Madara really close actually.
Going by that timeline, Nagato is only about 9-10 years older than Kakashi and Obito. Nagato appears to be in his teens during the founding of Akaktsui, so let's say 16-20. This would make Obito around 6-10 around the time Akaktsui was formed (Which was during the 3rd war actually), Obito wasn't yet dead, which would mean Tobi was leading Akaktsui for around 6-7 years before getting that eye, and never even used his power he had at that time. (Or Konan wouldn't have fought the way she did)...
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I have to go now. Anyways, that's my input, a bit rushed, but meh. ^^
Well, I'll agree, he certainly got them after his battle with Hashirama. However, you must realize that Madara was talking ONLY to Kabuto during this time, and Kabuto had already guessed that Madara had obtained the Rinnegan. So there was no reason to lie and keep up the farce that he had survived the battle against Hashi, because Kabuto would have already guessed that. Kabuto showed that he knew about the possibility of Madara having the Rinnegan BEFORE Madara said he obtained them before his death, so there was no reason for him to keep up the lie with Kabuto. And knowing that, he could have easily told Kabuto "I got them after my battle with Hashirama", seeing as how that wouldn't surprise nor matter if he told Kabuto in the first place. But he didn't.
Now, lets say for some reason your right about him lying to Kabuto (even though I just proved that's highly unlikely), you must understand that his statement is not the riding point behind my argument. Take that point away from my argument, and it works almost as well, just with a little bump. We know that Nagato's eyes were Madara's old eyes. I doubt that Madara would have transplanted his Rinnegan into Nagato when he was still alive. I'll explain more of this later on...
Your Konan point I also agree with, in a sense. I believe that he spurred on the creation of Akatsuki, but then didn't lead it, instead stood a ways away in the shadows watching them. Then later, once he saw Nagato was growing in power, he moved in close and took control (as Madara). In that case, Konan wouldn't have known him until he "joined" Akatsuki.
And as to the case of Tobi having other techniques and her not planning for them, what says that she didn't? Simply there's the fact there there is no technique short of flying that would allow Tobi to escape her jutsu, especially because he would have to solidify to use any of them (including something that allows him to fly). So actually, her jutsu was a perfect preparation for any jutsu Tobi may or may not have had. There is no implication of him not having other jutsu.
Also, your reasoning as to why he would use only Obito's eye? I would guess because it was the most useful overall. It clearly has a fearsomely powerful and dangerous technique, maybe he just liked it the most.
The rest of your point is based off of the idea that Madara lived beyond giving the Rinnegan to Nagato, but as I'll explain, that's not the case.
What I guess you're saying is that Madara was the original Tobi, who gave Nagato the Rinnegan and who later trained Obito to become the new Tobi (in the scenario that Tobi is in fact Obito). But here's your snag. WHY would he give Nagato the Rinnegan? I explained earlier, if he did in fact survive for a while after obtaining the Rinnegan, why would he remove his, and replace his eye with another? It doesn't make sense. But this scan explains why Nagato was given the Rinnegan (most likely)
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Here, it pretty much expressively shows that Madara EXPECTED to be revived by Nagato. Which means the Rinnegan was given to Nagato with the express purpose to be used later to revive Madara. Now, Madara while alive would have kept his Rinnegan with him, why give it away before he dies? This would mean that he would only give it to Nagato before he died. Which means everything still fits MY reasoning, where Nagato's birth coincides with Madara's death. That's all that really matters to my point.
There's also the obvious point that if Madara gave Nagato the Rinnegan, how would he have done it while fully blind! Similarly, how would he have implanted new eyes into himself after implanting his into Nagato. He obviously had someone else do it for him. And who else but...Tobi? And thus we have another reason as to why Tobi has to have been working WITH Madara, rather than BEING Madara.
what if Tobi is part of Madara... what if he is simply an artificial person like Zetsu, build using Hashirama's DNA (hence compatibility with the tree) and maintained through Madara's chakra (hence also compatibility with the rinnegan)? i mean, a guy who has no real identity, hides his face as if it is forbidden to show it, keeps losing and replacing arms from a special tree, therefore has some mokuton based 'abilities' and can wield the rinnegan, not to mention control the kyubi, but uses almost exclusively a simple sharingan taken from a child... he seems like the Frankenstein version of naruto. Tobi is sth like a conglomeration of different people's abilities and has no unique personal identity.
what if Tobi is part of Madara... what if he is simply an artificial person like Zetsu, build using Hashirama's DNA (hence compatibility with the tree) and maintained through Madara's chakra (hence also compatibility with the rinnegan)? i mean, a guy who has no real identity, hides his face as if it is forbidden to show it, keeps losing and replacing arms from a special tree, therefore has some mokuton based 'abilities' and can wield the rinnegan, not to mention control the kyubi, but uses almost exclusively a simple sharingan taken from a child... he seems like the Frankenstein version of naruto. Tobi is sth like a conglomeration of different people's abilities and has no unique personal identity.
The problem with this idea is that the Edo Madara clearly shows doubt as to whether Tobi will carry through with the Moons Eye Plan as planned. He doesn't trust Tobi. If Tobi were just an extension of himself, Madara would obviously be able to fully trust Tobi. But the fact that he doesn't shows that Tobi clearly is someone else who could have a different agenda.
