[Discussion] The Philosophical Morality of the 1%

ShishaMastah420

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Peter Singer is arguably one of the most influential philosophers alive today – he has published over one hundred academic articles, dozens of books, and was recently named a “Companion of the Order of Australia,” one of Australia’s highest honors. While Singer has an extensive moral code extending over a vast array of human affairs, I will only focus on one particular aspect of his moral code – charity. Specifically, I will explain his radical claim that we should give to charity until we are “very near the material circumstances of a Bengali refugee.”

The Argument

With the rise of Occupy Wall Street this past year, we’ve all heard the slogan “We are the 99%” and the message it’s meant to send — those with excessive power and wealth, the 1%, are not bearing their fair share of social burdens (such as taxes). The CEO who makes $100 million annually, but pays only $5 million in taxes, ought to pay more to support those who are in need. After all, even if his taxes are doubled, would he suffer in any significant way by paying $10 million rather than $5 million? Considering how many hungry families could be fed with that money, it seems absurd, almost offensive, to insist that the millionaire should not be taxed more.

In many ways, Singer’s arguments about charity are analogous to this line of thought, but with a global focus. We in the highly developed countries are, for the most part, the global 1%. It’s great that you donate $5 to charity each month – but why not donate another $5? Like the millionaire above, do you really need that extra $5 which could feed a hungry family?

Singer’s argument rests on two basic premises, both of which are extremely uncontroversial:

1) “Suffering and death from lack of food, shelter, and medical care [is] bad.”

2) “If it is in our power to prevent something very bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything morally significant, we ought, morally, to do it.”

In other words, we should prevent these bad things from happening, but only if we don’t cause something else that’s equally bad. If we see a child drowning in a pond, we should jump in that pond to save him, as it will prevent something bad without sacrificing anything morally significant. On the other hand, if the only way to save that child is by abandoning two other children who need immediate medical care, then you should not save that drowning child because doing so will cause a morally significant sacrifice. The obvious conclusion from Singer’s example is that we should work to prevent suffering when it doesn’t cause moral harm. What isn’t so obvious, and what makes Singer’s argument so interesting, is just how much help we are required to provide.

Peter Singer wrote his now-famous “Famine, Affluence and Morality” paper in the midst of a massive humanitarian crisis in East Bengal in 1971. Millions of refugees were without basic supplies, and the amount of external aid being provided was insufficient to resolve the issue. Singer believed (and continues to believe) that the appropriate response to this type of situation is to give until we are as impoverished as the refugees we are trying to help, and until that point, we have not reach the threshold of “morally significant” sacrifice. To draw the line of when we may stop giving at any point before then still results in us having the potential to prevent something very bad from happening, but not actually preventing it. If we came across five drowning children in a pond, it would be immoral to save one or two but leave the rest to drown because we are getting slightly tired. Our insistence that “good is good enough” is no different from the millionaire above insisting that his current tax rates are “good enough,” when he still has the potential to alleviate significant amounts of suffering. The conclusion to all this, then, is that we ought to give to charity until we are near the level of a Bengali refugee. If we stop giving before then, we are allowing very bad things to occur which we have the power to prevent.

The Implication

If Singer’s arguments are correct, then the fact that you’re reading this article is likely sufficient evidence that you are acting in immoral ways. Owning a computer, subscribing to an internet provider, even having the leisure time to read means that you are opting to not take the action necessary to prevent extreme suffering.

Singer himself recognized the radical implications of his argument, and at the end of “Famine, Affluence, and Morality” he discussed the need for a massive mindset shift in “developed” nations.Specifically, he argues that the distinction between duty (when we have an obligation to help others) and charity (when we may help others, but are not morally required to do so) is unacceptable. Those of us in the so-called developed world can no longer justify spending our spare money on fashionable clothes, cars, or homes – rather, that money ought to go towards charitable ends, and continue to do so until poverty and hunger are eradicated. To stop giving before we reach that final goal means we will recognize there are very bad things occurring, but simply choose not to prevent them.


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I was stumbling around on the web--Literally, i was using Stumebleupon--and i found the above piece of work...

A while ago, someone(North Kai, i believe) made a thread about the 1% and in this thread he questioned the morality of allowing the 1%ers to remain; I responded by saying that it is even more morally wrong for one to force another to give away that which they have earned.

Tell me what you think of Peter Singers argument...
 
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Tilia

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This is exactly what I have been thinking about recently. If you are aware of the fact that you are actually the minority, which lives in wealth (in comparison with people living in developing countries), it is hypocritical to claim that this 1% of people, who owns big companies, should give up some of their possession unless you act the same way.

I consider his example with donating money to charity not very happily chosen. Charity doesn't solve problems with scarcity; moreover charity is very often misused. Acting in moral way would mean to go to this place, where poverty or illnesses, natural catastrophes or whatever is, and help these people in person. I don't understand how you can help others with giving money to them.

I don't think individuals can help to change something in the society. Normally, individuals can help particular persons but can't save the world. If he assumes that I act in immoral way, because I have access to computer, internet, education, clothes etc. he is probably right, because I am aware of the problems in developing counties and I ignore them. But for now I am not in the position to help them or solve something. There are also a lot of problems in developed countries people have to cope with.

His argument isn't wrong. I think he tries to say that acting morally right is creating equality among people, because you should help someone as long as you are on the same level (same standards of living etc.). However, if you help others, it should be your own decision, you should feel it this way, and it is wrong to force someone to help others. That's why I don't agree with this statement: „the distinction between duty (when we have an obligation to help others) and charity (when we may help others, but are not morally required to do so) is unacceptable“.

Thank you for posting. Peter Singers seems to be an interesting philosopher.
 
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North Kai

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:) youre going to the act utilitarianism extreme, or rather Singer is, but there are many philosophical arguments that counter the act utilitarianism, you can go check it out

also I dont think that if we donate large amount of money to poorer ppl that it will make any kind of big change, however we should all have the SAME TAXES, I believe it was a republican (yes those who are in favour of tax cuts) who said, taxes are the price we pay to live in a civilised society

I believe that the system should be changed, not so that we would eradicate the rich, there should be the super rich, they are a vital part of todays economy, however we should set rules so that with their ''help'' we could rebuild schools which are falling apart, we should have affordable health care for everyone, everyone should have the chance to get a good education, everyone should get basic welfare if needed, we should limit the role money plays in politics otherwise we lose democracy, we should have a TRUE middle class, we should repair and upgrade our ageing infrastructure, we should use the government money for the progress OF EVERYONE, we as a country should help the 3rd world but not give money directly to the poor we should build schools bridges a good infrastructure because without those basic things they will never be able to overcome their problems (what good does free HIV drugs do if they are required to be taken at specific times every day and most of the victims in Africa dont own watches?), ...

so yes I do believe that we need a change, yes there will still be rich people, but there is a difference between a billionaire giving up 10m instead of 5m and a struggling lets say single parent paying double the amount they do now, I know we cant just take the money from the rich but we DO need to adjust the system long-term so that as much people as possible benefit from it

as for me and my parents I think we would gladly pay twice the charity we do now if all of the 1% would do so aswell
 

Pesh

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Surely, anyone with annual income of less than $40.000- $50.000 will agree that his argument is true. But, on the other hand, the rest, that 1% he is talking about might not. And using moral views, including his own, proves that his argument is actually not all that correct. He is taking for granted that there exist a moral feeling or idea which we all share, while there's no proof of that.

After all, we all have different views, one's might be close to another one's, but almost never you'd see exactly the same ideas. Surely, when you read one's arguments and you share similar views, you'd end up thinking you have the same morals as the other while that might be completely true.

Therefore, the premise that “Suffering and death from lack of food, shelter, and medical care [is] bad.” is also wrong. First, because there might be people who believe that suffering and death are not a bad thing. And secondly, because, from what I've learnt in my philosophy classes, "good" and "bad" don't really exist.

So, overall, he is using the majority's views to attack, in a way, a minority, which is basically the same as what happened in Germany during and before the WW II( mostly the part with the millionaire and the title).

P.S. As part of the majority, yes, he has a valid point, but the way he defends it, just not the right way.
 
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Shinobi Train

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Well, Shisha my man, I will impart some wisdom on you that I'm sure you'll respect. xd Pete Singer obviously doesn't understand how western society works, specifically in the USA:

The economy is directly controlled by those that control the media. I believe it was South Park's Margaritaville that said it the best. If I'm remembering the right episode. xd

If people spend money they don't have, then the economy is fine; if people stop spending money they don't have, then it's bad. Basically what keeps people from spending money they don't have is tied to what the media tells them. If people hear that the economy is bad (which, when they hear it, there's nothing wrong with the economy) then they stop spending money they don't have. When people stop spending money they don't have, our consumer country (USA) goes into an economic downfall.

Who benefits from this? Well, the big time stock traders who sell when its high and buy when its low. They tell the media to inform everyone that the economy is bad, then they buy lots of stock. Once they have the stock they want, they tell the media to tell the people that the economy is back and everything's fine, then they sell their stock to the suckers. Works every time.

It's not immoral, its just business; business is business, only they're playing with people's lives in order to ultimately have lots of cash to give back to them. The 1% are like Robinhoods for themselves; they take the money, then give it back, and this is how the US economy works. ;)
 

ShishaMastah420

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as for me and my parents I think we would gladly pay twice the charity we do now if all of the 1% would do so aswell

But... Is your actions your own? Why should, what they do be of any concern to you?Can you not act in a just manner without seeing or having someone act justly before you?


That's why I don't agree with this statement: „the distinction between duty (when we have an obligation to help others) and charity (when we may help others, but are not morally required to do so) is unacceptable“.

Thank you for posting. Peter Singers seems to be an interesting philosopher.

When are we ever actually obligated to help another person?

I believe what he is saying is that the distinction should not exist because; Naturally if you are in the position to help someone you should, one should not turn blind to those who are in need.


Therefore, the premise that “Suffering and death from lack of food, shelter, and medical care [is] bad.” is also wrong. First, because there might be people who believe that suffering and death are not a bad thing. And secondly, because, from what I've learnt in my philosophy classes, "good" and "bad" don't really exist.

So, overall, he is using the majority's views to attack, in a way, a minority, which is basically the same as what happened in Germany during and before the WW II( mostly the part with the millionaire and the title).

Majorities view or General Conscience?

When is it that suffering and death from the lack of food, shelter and medical care is ever something that is "Good"?

I think we can agree with while we all might not share the same ideologies, we can all agree upon the idea that death is never a "Good" thing especially death that can be averted.


It's not immoral, its just business; business is business, only they're playing with people's lives in order to ultimately have lots of cash to give back to them. The 1% are like Robinhoods for themselves; they take the money, then give it back, and this is how the US economy works. ;)

Wouldn't these Robinhoods of business benefit even more if there are people to work for them and people to buy their products?

Such business in the manner of which you are speaking sounds pretty selfish and self-destructing to me....
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:) Thanks everyone for sharing your view.

Sorry for Late reply ^_^
 

Shinobi Train

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Wouldn't these Robinhoods of business benefit even more if there are people to work for them and people to buy their products?

Such business in the manner of which you are speaking sounds pretty selfish and self-destructing to me....

See, this is where all the confusion comes in, and it's why democrats have no place in government. You see, this cycle is what keeps the United States alive. People always go on about how the US doesn't produce anything, but that's because we're a consumor country, not a producer. A consumer country is in charge of those that are producers simply because it's the customer.

By doing this weird money shuffle, the 1% allow the country to sustain itself without producing anything. So is that immoral? I guess it depends, it is a tad dangerous simply because a small mistake turns into a big problem down the road, and there is a lot of collateral damage when the economy falls. However, since we're consuming and not having to produce so much, our quality of life is considerably better overall.

It's actually super hard to explain, and I suppose only the 1% understand it completely, but they have to spend all this time fighting against democrats who don't understand that they're biting the hand that feeds them. The more money that the wealthy have, the more stable our economy is and there's less problems. You see, the democrats say they're fighting for the people, but all they end up doing is hurting business; and when you hurt business you hurt the people...so to me, that's the immoral side. What gives them the right to hurt people?
 

ShishaMastah420

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See, this is where all the confusion comes in, and it's why democrats have no place in government. You see, this cycle is what keeps the United States alive. People always go on about how the US doesn't produce anything, but that's because we're a consumor country, not a producer. A consumer country is in charge of those that are producers simply because it's the customer.

By doing this weird money shuffle, the 1% allow the country to sustain itself without producing anything. So is that immoral? I guess it depends, it is a tad dangerous simply because a small mistake turns into a big problem down the road, and there is a lot of collateral damage when the economy falls. However, since we're consuming and not having to produce so much, our quality of life is considerably better overall.

It's actually super hard to explain, and I suppose only the 1% understand it completely, but they have to spend all this time fighting against democrats who don't understand that they're biting the hand that feeds them. The more money that the wealthy have, the more stable our economy is and there's less problems. You see, the democrats say they're fighting for the people, but all they end up doing is hurting business; and when you hurt business you hurt the people...so to me, that's the immoral side. What gives them the right to hurt people?

I understand the cycle, you don't need to explain...

All i am saying is: Even if it is for one's own interest; Having more people to produce and consume helps in the long run does it not?

So why not share?
 
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Pesh

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Majorities view or General Conscience?

When is it that suffering and death from the lack of food, shelter and medical care is ever something that is "Good"?

I think we can agree with while we all might not share the same ideologies, we can all agree upon the idea that death is never a "Good" thing especially death that can be averted.

Well, the General Conscience usually starts with a point of view spread among the Majority, at least I believe so.

A lot of Companies and Corporations would ignore or find such things as "good" for their well being and prosperity. Although no person with proper morality would never consider such thing, the very corporational system distorts the conscience and morality.
 

ShishaMastah420

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Well, the General Conscience usually starts with a point of view spread among the Majority, at least I believe so.

A lot of Companies and Corporations would ignore or find such things as "good" for their well being and prosperity. Although no person with proper morality would never consider such thing, the very corporational system distorts the conscience and morality.

Of-course, the General Conscience is manifested from the Majority; But the Conscience is something greater than a Major point of view spread by people sharing a similar view point, the Conscience, i believe is the source of ones own morals which are fashioned to adhere to an General Idea.

We should not let the Corporations greed corrupt our hearts and blind us the ugliness of the world, Corporations will always look out for themselves and themselves only...
 

Pesh

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Of-course, the General Conscience is manifested from the Majority; But the Conscience is something greater than a Major point of view spread by people sharing a similar view point, the Conscience, i believe is the source of ones own morals which are fashioned to adhere to an General Idea.

We should not let the Corporations greed corrupt our hearts and blind us the ugliness of the world, Corporations will always look out for themselves and themselves only...

I never said it's the same, I said it at some points begins with it. You base your morals on experiences and your ideology. If you are living during an economical crisis and having a hard time, and when someone starts implanting such ideas, there you have it. And that's why I used the Nazi as an example, because it happened during a period with quite the similar problems.

Well, as we've seen, it has start doing so and it seems as if it's just the beginning. Today's society is, first, in a fast change of morals and ethic views, and, secondly, in an economical and social crisis; this is in a way pushing the society towards quite the dark future.
 

ShishaMastah420

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I never said it's the same, I said it at some points begins with it. You base your morals on experiences and your ideology. If you are living during an economical crisis and having a hard time, and when someone starts implanting such ideas, there you have it. And that's why I used the Nazi as an example, because it happened during a period with quite the similar problems.

Well, as we've seen, it has start doing so and it seems as if it's just the beginning. Today's society is, first, in a fast change of morals and ethic views, and, secondly, in an economical and social crisis; this is in a way pushing the society towards quite the dark future.

I never said you said it was the same? o.o Nor did i say it was it same...

I was simply creating a distinction between the two....
 

Shinobi Train

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I understand the cycle, you don't need to explain...

All i am saying is: Even if it is for one's own interest; Having more people to produce and consume helps in the long run does it not?

So why not share?

Well, you can't have too many people at the top, and in a way it balances out as it is right now. The idea of the republican party is to put the carrot in front of the horse, give them something to work for; but you can only afford to let them nibble at it from time to time or you'll run out of carrots. Every once in a while one does shoot to the top though, and that inspires the other horses.

The idea of the democratic party is to simply give the horse the carrot, and while it seems like this is helping the horse at first glance, it actually hurts it because now it won't plow the feild to grow more carrots so it just starves in the end. ;)
 

Tilia

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When are we ever actually obligated to help another person?

I believe what he is saying is that the distinction should not exist because; Naturally if you are in the position to help someone you should, one should not turn blind to those who are in need.

There is duty to rescue. This leads to question if all human lives are of equal importance. In my opinion, yes they are. However, it is just natural that other people can think differently, maybe more realistically. As Pesh has said, we all act according to our own morals and ethics based on our experiences.

And then, there are authorities, which try to convince you, that you should appreciate life of others no matter what. But because of money and profit, human life doesn't matter anymore. For instance wars. Who cares that people die and suffer? War industry is huge driver of GDP. Or is there any need to cure diseases such as diabetes or cancer? No, there isn't because it would eliminate countless jobs and trillions in revenue. And there are more examples. So people are learnt, that human life is important, but at the same time they see that if they want to be successful in life, they have to lie, they have to find out how to cheat to gain something etc., they mustn’t feel any empathy. And this, of course, leads to huge conflict.

People should help others because of their own conviction and not because there is a law for it, all people should feel this conviction. This is in principle what he is saying, and you are right. Is he trying to enlighten people or something? As I don't think people should do something just because others have told them it is right and it is their obligation, there should be no duty to help others. For me it is morally righter to do something, you truly believe in, as to simply follow the rules. I truly admire people, who are able to save lives and help others, but I don't see it as a must and I don't judge people if they don't want to help, no matter how selfish it is.
 

ShishaMastah420

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Well, you can't have too many people at the top, and in a way it balances out as it is right now. The idea of the republican party is to put the carrot in front of the horse, give them something to work for; but you can only afford to let them nibble at it from time to time or you'll run out of carrots. Every once in a while one does shoot to the top though, and that inspires the other horses.

The idea of the democratic party is to simply give the horse the carrot, and while it seems like this is helping the horse at first glance, it actually hurts it because now it won't plow the feild to grow more carrots so it just starves in the end. ;)

Lmaoo...Tell me why you perfectly describe the American dream using a Carrot and a Horse... LOL


People should help others because of their own conviction and not because there is a law for it, all people should feel this conviction. This is in principle what he is saying, and you are right. Is he trying to enlighten people or something? As I don't think people should do something just because others have told them it is right and it is their obligation, there should be no duty to help others. For me it is morally righter to do something, you truly believe in, as to simply follow the rules. I truly admire people, who are able to save lives and help others, but I don't see it as a must and I don't judge people if they don't want to help, no matter how selfish it is.

I think you and Mr. Singer could agree on something when it comes to helping people :)
 

Shinobi Train

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Lmaoo...Tell me why you perfectly describe the American dream using a Carrot and a Horse... LOL

Ummm...well, because it's the best analogy I could think of at the time? I still can't think of a better one actually, I think that may be because this is the best one. xd
 
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