Second Hokage vs. Third Hokage

Third Sage

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Okay, this has been bugging me because people here mostly overrate Hiruzen and underrate Tobirama. I've done some thinking and only concluded that this fight would be highly difficult for both of them to win.

I know we still don't know very much about those two, but Hiruzen being called "The God of Shinobi" against Tobirama who was the strongest Senju after Hashirama makes me think that there's no correct conclusion. Both of them could win.

What are your thoughts, NB?
 

USSJ Future Trunks

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theyve already fought when hiruzen was past his prime and tobirama was in his prime.
and besides tobirama has basically shown nothing that could defeat his student.
 

Third Sage

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No, Orochimaru hasn't mastered Edo Tensei, therefore it was an incomplete summoning. If brothers were at their prime, why didn't Hashirama beat Hiruzen? You can't say Third Hokage is actually more powerful than First? But no, Hiruzen has beaten both of them. Power scales have changed dramatically since Part I, you know.
 

USSJ Future Trunks

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No, Orochimaru hasn't mastered Edo Tensei, therefore it was an incomplete summoning.
despite the fact kabuto said oro perfected it

If brothers were at their prime, why didn't Hashirama beat Hiruzen? You can't say Third Hokage is actually more powerful than First
no. but the manga is

Power scales have changed dramatically since Part I,
but not the calibre of the shinobi themselves. jutsus got flashier and more large scale but remember they were in a barrier. they COULDNT use any jutsu that was too big.
 

Third Sage

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no. but the manga is

What the ****, man? Are you really going for this? Hiruzen more powerful then Hashirama?

but not the calibre of the shinobi themselves. jutsus got flashier and more large scale but remember they were in a barrier. they COULDNT use any jutsu that was too big.

Why is that? Do you really think that an ordinary barrier would hold on if Hashirama (strongest shinobi of all times except S06P and his sons) used his wood release in its full extent to fx. summon a great forest or something?
 

Third Sage

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I agree with you, MubiOxx. I really can't see why is Hiruzen called "God of Shinobi".
 

UchiGod Itachi

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No, Orochimaru hasn't mastered Edo Tensei, therefore it was an incomplete summoning. If brothers were at their prime, why didn't Hashirama beat Hiruzen? You can't say Third Hokage is actually more powerful than First? But no, Hiruzen has beaten both of them. Power scales have changed dramatically since Part I, you know.

Power scales have changed :sy: no more like scales haven't been shown you think kishimoto wouldn't bring out a kick ass arsenal for hiruzen as well. it's 3 vs 1 two of them has infinte chaka, indestructible bodies, what more excuses down ppl wanna bring out to down play old man hiruzen? Show me in the manga were Hashirama escaped the death reapers stomach went back in time trained boosted up his power level to changed the level of scale. ;)
 

Reborn

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theyve already fought when hiruzen was past his prime and tobirama was in his prime.
and besides tobirama has basically shown nothing that could defeat his student.

Base on the information on the abilities of Hashi and Tobi described in part two, part 1 shinobi aren't even pale comparisons of the powers those two had. Kage level combat bac then was pathetic compared to in part two. That can be used against me as well if you know how to but as to how it makes sense for what I'm saying right now, Hashi and Tobi weren't doing shit. That was definately not their prime.

despite the fact kabuto said oro perfected it

no. but the manga is

but not the calibre of the shinobi themselves. jutsus got flashier and more large scale but remember they were in a barrier. they COULDNT use any jutsu that was too big.

Couldn't have been perfected if somebody improved on it more, that contradicts the definition of perfection :rolleyes:

Power scales have changed :sy: no more like scales haven't been shown you think kishimoto wouldn't bring out a kick ass arsenal for hiruzen as well. it's 3 vs 1 two of them has infinte chaka, indestructible bodies, what more excuses down ppl wanna bring out to down play old man hiruzen? Show me in the manga were Hashirama escaped the death reapers stomach went back in time trained boosted up his power level to changed the level of scale. ;)

Power scales have changed in some sense but my issue with the Hiruzen being considered the most powerful Kage is the fact that every other Hokage has been Upped to the new level of combat shown in part 2 yet Hiruzen has not even been mentioned (in terms of his prowess as a Kage) since his death so Kishi obviously doesn't mean for Hiruzen to be the strongest kage anymore, especially not with the hype he's used on Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato.

As it stands right now even, from the outdated information we have on Hiruzen and his skills, purely going by what has been seen, the arguments for Tsunade being greater thatn 69 year old Hiruzen can be made. Since Prime Hiruzen doesn't exist and nothing has been idicated to show his skills in his prime, we only have old fart Hiruzen. Where that Hiruzen stands right now he's the weakest of the 5 arguably...That's only going by the feats right now. However in these Vs. threads feats are what most people make their basis on...though many are hype fanatics so idk.
 

Professor Sarutobi

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despite the fact kabuto said oro perfected it

no. but the manga is

but not the calibre of the shinobi themselves. jutsus got flashier and more large scale but remember they were in a barrier. they COULDNT use any jutsu that was too big.
Kabuto said oro improved it, Kabuto himself perfected it.

hiruzen sarutobi is the most overrated character in this manga ! for god sake : he have a long staff, a monkey and some fire and earth jutsus he won't keep up neither with tobirama or hashirama ! and the manga does not say that iruka did !
Kabuto said hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 kage living, iruka said he was the strongest hokage in history.
Power scales have changed :sy: no more like scales haven't been shown you think kishimoto wouldn't bring out a kick ass arsenal for hiruzen as well. it's 3 vs 1 two of them has infinte chaka, indestructible bodies, what more excuses down ppl wanna bring out to down play old man hiruzen? Show me in the manga were Hashirama escaped the death reapers stomach went back in time trained boosted up his power level to changed the level of scale. ;)

The author can change whatever he likes later, the edo hashirama from part 1 was like 5% of the hype he got during the madara fight. Tobirama wasn't said to have S/T until minato mentioned it, and if we ever see prime Hiruzen his attacks will probably be 10 times the scale of his part one versions.
 

Owarij

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Base on the information on the abilities of Hashi and Tobi described in part two, part 1 shinobi aren't even pale comparisons of the powers those two had. Kage level combat bac then was pathetic compared to in part two. That can be used against me as well if you know how to but as to how it makes sense for what I'm saying right now, Hashi and Tobi weren't doing shit. That was definately not their prime.



Couldn't have been perfected if somebody improved on it more, that contradicts the definition of perfection :rolleyes:



Power scales have changed in some sense but my issue with the Hiruzen being considered the most powerful Kage is the fact that every other Hokage has been Upped to the new level of combat shown in part 2 yet Hiruzen has not even been mentioned (in terms of his prowess as a Kage) since his death so Kishi obviously doesn't mean for Hiruzen to be the strongest kage anymore, especially not with the hype he's used on Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato.

As it stands right now even, from the outdated information we have on Hiruzen and his skills, purely going by what has been seen, the arguments for Tsunade being greater thatn 69 year old Hiruzen can be made. Since Prime Hiruzen doesn't exist and nothing has been idicated to show his skills in his prime, we only have old fart Hiruzen. Where that Hiruzen stands right now he's the weakest of the 5 arguably...That's only going by the feats right now. However in these Vs. threads feats are what most people make their basis on...though many are hype fanatics so idk.

Well we can't disregard what was said in Part 1, Power scales changed yes, but that would mean that Hiruzen would have had is power scaled up as well... Him defeating the edo hokages was a necessary thing for the plot to move on....

As for their hype, Tobirama hasn't been mentioned a lot either, nor does he have any hype to compete with Hashirama/ Hiruzen... He is mentioned one or two times but only because he created edo tensei.... Other than that , the last time we got any hype from him and his power has been what? part 1 ?.As for Hashirama, he really wasn't mentioned that much at all, In part 1 we got the basic story of the hashirama vs Madara fight and that was it. He is now getting his time to shine through Madara.


I will admit however it does look bad for Hiruzen. Some of the Moukoton abilities Hashirama has coughed out makes it hard to believe he could counter them.... But even kabuto commented that in the past other ninjas were on Hashirama's level.. So There is still some hope.... A man with thousands of jutsu and such a wide arsenal of abilities I'm sure would have something up his sleeves to deal with his former master's abilities... He also seems to know their jutsu quite well and know the appropriate counters..


It is a stretch, And there is no solid statement from kishi saying that anyone WAS the strongest hokage... Only opinions of people in the past.... But I do believe there is a reason they considered him the strongest hokage despite at least tobirama dying not so long ago.
 

Jinton Spam

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Hiruzen was toying with the 2 he was concentrating of getting Orochimaru and those 2 didnt showed their full powernot even half i think, nor did Hiruzen.
MAYBE Saru would beat 1v1 the original Tobirama with earth techs ,same for Hashirama, he would just burn his wood with fire techs.
 

Reborn

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Well we can't disregard what was said in Part 1, Power scales changed yes, but that would mean that Hiruzen would have had is power scaled up as well... Him defeating the edo hokages was a necessary thing for the plot to move on....

As for their hype, Tobirama hasn't been mentioned a lot either, nor does he have any hype to compete with Hashirama/ Hiruzen... He is mentioned one or two times but only because he created edo tensei.... Other than that , the last time we got any hype from him and his power has been what? part 1 ?.As for Hashirama, he really wasn't mentioned that much at all, In part 1 we got the basic story of the hashirama vs Madara fight and that was it. He is now getting his time to shine through Madara.


I will admit however it does look bad for Hiruzen. Some of the Moukoton abilities Hashirama has coughed out makes it hard to believe he could counter them.... But even kabuto commented that in the past other ninjas were on Hashirama's level.. So There is still some hope.... A man with thousands of jutsu and such a wide arsenal of abilities I'm sure would have something up his sleeves to deal with his former master's abilities... He also seems to know their jutsu quite well and know the appropriate counters..


It is a stretch, And there is no solid statement from kishi saying that anyone WAS the strongest hokage... Only opinions of people in the past.... But I do believe there is a reason they considered him the strongest hokage despite at least tobirama dying not so long ago.

If what was said in part 1 was so important than Hiruzen's scale of power would've been upped and it would've been demonstrated somehow but it wasn't. Yes the scale of power would've been upped but there was no instance in the second part where it was, which has lead me to my conclusion (opinion of course) that Kishi changed his mind about Hirzen being the strongest Hokage. If for anything, Madara and Hashirama are the examples that prove my point tht he's not the strongest nor was he ever compared to his teachrs in their prime (in the scaling of power). What I'm trying to say is that Hiruzen's hype in part 1 was only for the sake of the plot as you said, however the section of the plot it was working for was not to show that Hiruzen=strongest Hokage. The section of the plot it was meant to show was how the Hokage were supposed tower over every other shinobi. They were supposed to be the rocks. Hashirama and Tobirama were the images of the past and were not supposed to win because they were merely shells. Edo Tensai recieved considerable hype and power increase as well and I don't man from Kabuto's fiddling with it but from how it was portrayed and represented later on.

Here's the thing with me and hype. You have the rumor then you see a sliver of the power behind the rumor but nothing else and you're left to make your own assumptions and grades etc. Tobirama's hype does not exceed Hiruzen's in the sense of rumors and titles, but as far as those slivers of power demonstrated (the vauge feat to back them up) Tobirama's surpasses Hiruzens. Lets take a look

Tobirama
Rumos: Strongest Shinobi of his time (that's about it)
Support: Creation of Edo Tensai and usage of sed technique to be renown as the shinobi who created it (Mu, Kin, Gin brothers, Hiruzen, several shinobi around his time) | ST techniques that are worthy of note by another Hokage in comparison to his own and that Tobi, where as the latter two possess arguably the most powerful ST jutsu thus far | Suiton Mastery unlike any other. His powers to create Sea like masses of water in thin air and to preform techniques with only one seal consider the possibility of his powers with water around him.

Hiruzen
Rumors: God of Shinobi (shared title) | The Professor (knowing all of Konoha's jutsu) | Strongest Kage of the Leaf in Prime
Support: Katon and Doton mastery to the same extent we see of his pupil Jiraiya | Reaper Death Seal | Defeating watered down Kage and former student who played with him for a majority of the fight....

If you look in compariosn to the feats, who can you say has the stronger hype in that department? Certianly not Hiruzen. He has no supporting feats to prove these high aclaimed rumors about him. God of Shinobi? He shares the title with a man worthy of the title. What completely devestating powers did Hiruzen have? What were all these other jutsu that Hiruzen possessed that he supposedly mastered?

It is imensly difficult to argue for Hiruzen against either Madara or Hashirama. I don't remember where it said Hiruzen had 1000 techniques...nor do I know of any techniques that could be within his arsonal that has the potential of power that were demonstrated by these two demi-god like shinobi. Bijuu level Susanoo? Mokuton abilities that can create, essentially a forest, complete control over Bijuu? What could you possibly imagine within an arsonal for a shinobi like Hiruzen to have to deal with these types of techniques and powers?

Kishi has gone back and contradicted a few things I believe from reading other threads, even the power scale his him going back on what he previously dictated in the story....so what is to say that what was said back then still constitutes now? For plot a lot of things were done, and I believe using Hiruzen as a symbol for the plot then (which was less complex than it was now) was all he meant for. The plot of Naruto changed dramatically from a ninja fullfilling his dream to a more dynamic straight viewd concept.

In part 1 Naruto and the gang would go through various challenges that were to show Naruto's growth and had no one direction until the middle of the chuunin exams. It soon became about Sasuke leaving and going with Orochimaru then in part 2 it became about Akatasuki and it's been drawn out so much now. Things have changed and a change I firmly believe is true is that Hiruzen is no longer the strongest Hokage in his prime.
 

Myogen

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Both are Top Tier shinobi, but Hiruzen should have extensive knowledge of Tobirama, while on the other hand Tobirama will have some knowledge on Hiruzen, but he died so young he won't have knowledge of any of the abilities Hiruzen mastered after his death, so I see odds favoring Hiruzen to win this.
 

jiraiya lives

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No, Orochimaru hasn't mastered Edo Tensei, therefore it was an incomplete summoning. If brothers were at their prime, why didn't Hashirama beat Hiruzen? You can't say Third Hokage is actually more powerful than First? But no, Hiruzen has beaten both of them. Power scales have changed dramatically since Part I, you know.

I agree, those hokage edo's were nowere as strong as the average edo's that kobuto summoned,
who in there right mind would think hiruzen could beat both the 1st and second hokages at the same time even in his prime, that fight basically screwed the who series now everyone thinks prime hiruzen is the strongest shinobi
but the only fight that tobirama had that i know of was against the gold and silver brothers were he lost so Idk how strong he is
 

El Batman

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Tobirama beats him. He beats all other hokages but this brother.
 

USSJ Future Trunks

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Hiruzen more powerful then Hashirama?
not saying i like it. but thats the statement kishi has given us in databooks

Do you really think that an ordinary barrier would hold on if Hashirama (strongest shinobi of all times except S06P and his sons) used his wood release in its full extent to fx. summon a great forest or something?
apparently thats EXACTLY what it did. and your dead wrong about him being strongest shinobi since the sages sons. how can he defeat tobi or nagato? nagato is the third sage, akatsuki leader and hailed as unbeatable/invincible unless you know about his abilities.

he won't keep up neither with tobirama or hashirama !
and yet did. they couldnt even hurt him

What could you possibly imagine within an arsonal for a shinobi like Hiruzen to have to deal with these types of techniques and powers?
shadow mimicry, mind posession, chamoflage jutsu, genjutsu like kurenais, all 5 elements. shinobis dont always win battles by nuking the place.

Kabuto said oro improved it, Kabuto himself perfected it.
"created by the second hokage, perfected by orochimaru sama"
 

USSJ Future Trunks

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Tobirama beats him. He beats all other hokages but this brother
how?

who in there right mind would think hiruzen could beat both the 1st and second hokages at the same time even in his prime,
kishimoto apparently

agree, those hokage edo's were nowere as strong as the average edo's that kobuto summoned,
show evidence that they werent
 

IllusionRamen

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I would say Tobirama lol my suiton water wall is ready for any hiruzen fan's fire tech coming my way.

Tobirama have S/T under his belt and I just don't see why Hiruzen could beat him other than force a draw with death god seal.

imo Hiruzen is way too overhype honestly... but that's just my opinion though.
by all means I do acknowledge his power, I agree he is very powerful shinobi and capable of taking down any formidable opponent.

but until a flashback in shippuden ( aka part 2 ) show his full potential...
it's all hype no show, all talk and no go. sorry.
 

UchiGod Itachi

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If what was said in part 1 was so important than Hiruzen's scale of power would've been upped and it would've been demonstrated somehow but it wasn't. Yes the scale of power would've been upped but there was no instance in the second part where it was, which has lead me to my conclusion (opinion of course) that Kishi changed his mind about Hirzen being the strongest Hokage. If for anything, Madara and Hashirama are the examples that prove my point tht he's not the strongest nor was he ever compared to his teachrs in their prime (in the scaling of power). What I'm trying to say is that Hiruzen's hype in part 1 was only for the sake of the plot as you said, however the section of the plot it was working for was not to show that Hiruzen=strongest Hokage. The section of the plot it was meant to show was how the Hokage were supposed tower over every other shinobi. They were supposed to be the rocks. Hashirama and Tobirama were the images of the past and were not supposed to win because they were merely shells. Edo Tensai recieved considerable hype and power increase as well and I don't man from Kabuto's fiddling with it but from how it was portrayed and represented later on.

Here's the thing with me and hype. You have the rumor then you see a sliver of the power behind the rumor but nothing else and you're left to make your own assumptions and grades etc. Tobirama's hype does not exceed Hiruzen's in the sense of rumors and titles, but as far as those slivers of power demonstrated (the vauge feat to back them up) Tobirama's surpasses Hiruzens. Lets take a look

Tobirama
Rumos: Strongest Shinobi of his time (that's about it)
Support: Creation of Edo Tensai and usage of sed technique to be renown as the shinobi who created it (Mu, Kin, Gin brothers, Hiruzen, several shinobi around his time) | ST techniques that are worthy of note by another Hokage in comparison to his own and that Tobi, where as the latter two possess arguably the most powerful ST jutsu thus far | Suiton Mastery unlike any other. His powers to create Sea like masses of water in thin air and to preform techniques with only one seal consider the possibility of his powers with water around him.

Hiruzen
Rumors: God of Shinobi (shared title) | The Professor (knowing all of Konoha's jutsu) | Strongest Kage of the Leaf in Prime
Support: Katon and Doton mastery to the same extent we see of his pupil Jiraiya | Reaper Death Seal | Defeating watered down Kage and former student who played with him for a majority of the fight....

If you look in compariosn to the feats, who can you say has the stronger hype in that department? Certianly not Hiruzen. He has no supporting feats to prove these high aclaimed rumors about him. God of Shinobi? He shares the title with a man worthy of the title. What completely devestating powers did Hiruzen have? What were all these other jutsu that Hiruzen possessed that he supposedly mastered?

It is imensly difficult to argue for Hiruzen against either Madara or Hashirama. I don't remember where it said Hiruzen had 1000 techniques...nor do I know of any techniques that could be within his arsonal that has the potential of power that were demonstrated by these two demi-god like shinobi. Bijuu level Susanoo? Mokuton abilities that can create, essentially a forest, complete control over Bijuu? What could you possibly imagine within an arsonal for a shinobi like Hiruzen to have to deal with these types of techniques and powers?

Kishi has gone back and contradicted a few things I believe from reading other threads, even the power scale his him going back on what he previously dictated in the story....so what is to say that what was said back then still constitutes now? For plot a lot of things were done, and I believe using Hiruzen as a symbol for the plot then (which was less complex than it was now) was all he meant for. The plot of Naruto changed dramatically from a ninja fullfilling his dream to a more dynamic straight viewd concept.

In part 1 Naruto and the gang would go through various challenges that were to show Naruto's growth and had no one direction until the middle of the chuunin exams. It soon became about Sasuke leaving and going with Orochimaru then in part 2 it became about Akatasuki and it's been drawn out so much now. Things have changed and a change I firmly believe is true is that Hiruzen is no longer the strongest Hokage in his prime.

Kabuto said oro improved it, Kabuto himself perfected it.


Kabuto said hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 kage living, iruka said he was the strongest hokage in history.


The author can change whatever he likes later, the edo hashirama from part 1 was like 5% of the hype he got during the madara fight. Tobirama wasn't said to have S/T until minato mentioned it, and if we ever see prime Hiruzen his attacks will probably be 10 times the scale of his part one versions.

Base on the information on the abilities of Hashi and Tobi described in part two, part 1 shinobi aren't even pale comparisons of the powers those two had. Kage level combat bac then was pathetic compared to in part two. That can be used against me as well if you know how to but as to how it makes sense for what I'm saying right now, Hashi and Tobi weren't doing shit. That was definately not their prime.



Couldn't have been perfected if somebody improved on it more, that contradicts the definition of perfection :rolleyes:



Power scales have changed in some sense but my issue with the Hiruzen being considered the most powerful Kage is the fact that every other Hokage has been Upped to the new level of combat shown in part 2 yet Hiruzen has not even been mentioned (in terms of his prowess as a Kage) since his death so Kishi obviously doesn't mean for Hiruzen to be the strongest kage anymore, especially not with the hype he's used on Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato.

As it stands right now even, from the outdated information we have on Hiruzen and his skills, purely going by what has been seen, the arguments for Tsunade being greater thatn 69 year old Hiruzen can be made. Since Prime Hiruzen doesn't exist and nothing has been idicated to show his skills in his prime, we only have old fart Hiruzen. Where that Hiruzen stands right now he's the weakest of the 5 arguably...That's only going by the feats right now. However in these Vs. threads feats are what most people make their basis on...though many are hype fanatics so idk.

The databook states that Hiruzen was known as the strongest hokage key were was because if the 1st & 2nd were already dead who was left to surpass him? Minato :shrug: Also how many kage levels were fightning in the beginning for us to be in impressed the only 2

The scale of power hasn't changed proof It

Gaara buries a whole forest in nothing but sand

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The same basic flute genjutsu catches itachi & sasuke in a genjutsu and it's of the same level
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Look at the scale of Jiariya attack
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Now think about it what happened if people seen power of the SO6P in part 1 you think anybody would be satisfied with watching naruto create the rasensuriken or sasuke with the kirin? No great writer shows you a characters true potential or capable in the beginning of the series there's always obstinacls or plotholes.

Your honestly saying Hiruzen took on water down kages :sy:

Straight out of Madara mouth Edos have unlimited chakra with undying bodies
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So please tell me how unlimited chakra with undying bodies is watered down? Were is the excuse in that? A old aged hiruzen facing off against 2 kage edos and Orochimaru, Tobirama space-time jutsu when have no idea how his work because if it was that impressive he wouldn't have gotten killed by those 20 elite tracking ninjas but tobi or minato in that situation everybody with them would have been safe and sound.

Kishimoto didn't leave hiruzen out

Hiruzen is with Mitokado Homura ,Utatane Koharu, Akimichi Torifu ,Danzo Shimura, Uchiha Kagami he claims that he's better then all of them, Here what i get of it the two clans i find impressive me by my knowlege of them are the Uchiha & Akimichi clan.

Uchiha clan don't even need to explain & Akimichi body explantion is a powerful technique

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Danzo had 10 sharingans plus wood style admitted that he could never catch up to hiruzen & this is the guy who battled head on with a M. sharingan user

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How would you come to the conclusion who's the strongest hokage or not if simple things like hiruzen knowing over 1000 jutsu
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