Itachi=Tobi=Madara=Zetsu

[gazmatic]

The Lessons one should take away from Naruto Mangas 590-591.

As a fan of Naruto for almost eight years now, I’ve followed the series much like I followed Dragon Ball Z the years before. I’ve watched the story progress; the characters develop and wait eagerly for the next installment. The recent manga chapters have basically cemented everything I knew about Naruto while at the same time revealing new information that help me understand the characters and plot a little better and makes it easier to follow the story.
The point of this thread is to highlight some of the most repeated articles mentioned on narutobase.net
I joined no too long ago and I really wanted to discuss the series in an open and adult manner. However I’ve been bombarded with constant nonsense and foolish theories that make no sense. Also I’ve been introduced to two of the most annoying entities on the internet. TROLLS and FANBOYS.
There is nothing that upset me more than these people who add nothing to the conversation and are hell bent on spreading their ignorance and defending to the gates of hell a claim that is obviously false.
This thread is for those who want some clarifications, who want to further the debate and who want information. The only way I know how to fight ignorance is with knowledge. Accept the knowledge I try to impart, show me where my weak points are and if you are a troll or a fan boy who got offended by what I said, don’t read. I am not forcing you; continue believing what you want to believe.

Madara is a BOSS!

This is probably one of the least debatable points in the entire Naruto series. When I talk about Madara, I am talking about rinnegan Madara who is the culmination of madara’s efforts to become stronger.
Madara is a power hungry demon who would stop at nothing to get stronger and is always looking for worthy adversaries on whom he can test his newly acquired abilities and further push the limits of his capabilities.
It started with the rivalry he had with his brother and they become stronger and stronger and with the sacrifice of his brother, Madara became stronger and in battling an opponent who was more than his equal, Madara in turn became even stronger, assimilating the abilities and powers of his most powerful rivals and unlocking power beyond imagination.
Madara cannot be considered overhyped or haxxed because unlike characters like sasuke, Madara earned all his abilities and they weren’t simply given to him. The bossness of Madara is like no other. Madara Is a BOSS and that cannot be argued. So don’t try.

Tobi could very well be Madara

We have yet to see the link between Madara, Tobi, Zetsu and Nagato and until that is explained, one cannot simply say that Tobi is not Madara.
Why do I make such of an assertion when most people would disagree with me? Simple. This is the Naruto universe, not real life where one person cannot be in two places at once. What I cannot understand is how it is so hard to believe that Tobi could be Madara in a world of shadow clones, in a world of wood clones, in a world of rock clones, in a world of clones, clones and more clones.
In a world where characters can split at any time just like binary fission, in a world where ninjas can become perfect copies, down to the chakra signature of another ninja and not even his closest friends or the most capable sensory ninja can tell the difference. Why is this so hard to believe in such a world?
Am I saying that Tobi is a zetsu clone of Madara? Maybe. He could very well be but until this relationship is explained I rest my case that Tobi is Madara. Until kishimoto proves me wrong. I won’t be surprised.

Tobi is a liar is a ridiculous statement

This is probably one of the most repeated statements on this page yet it is completely unfounded. Tobi has yet to be proven a liar and the premise of this statement rest on the point I made before. If we were to consider Tobi to be a liar then everything he said must be a lie too.
Then he was lying about his involvement in the uchiha massacre. He was lying in claiming that he wants to revive the juubi. He is lying about his relationship with sasuke and itachi. He is lying about giving Nagato the rinnegan. He is lying about being the leader of akatsuki.
He is lying about making yahiko form akatsuki. He is lying about wanting to link sasuke to gedo mazo. He is lying when he says he wants to control people by using the darkness in their hearts. He is lying when he says he wants a perfect body. I listed just a few things that Tobi said so if he is a liar then they should all be proven wrong.
Itachi has already confirmed that Tobi was truthful in some of the points listed above. I won’t be shocked if he is proven truthful about everything else. Tobi is a manipulator; calling him a liar just shows lack of depth and understanding.

Itachi is a god = false

It is one thing to have a preferred character but is another to say that a specific character, hands down, pawns all other characters. Itachi is one of those characters is just a mismatch for everybody and his limitations are too obvious. The main argument against itachi being godlike comes from itachi himself.
He said “do not overestimate me” so I won’t. A fight against itachi hinges on two things: can you dodge his attacks and can you outlast itachi in battle. If the answer is yes to both then the character can defeat itachi regardless of itachi’s awesomeness and super amazing abilities and techniques.
I will repeat: itachi is not a chakra god and he doesn’t have a one hit K.O. jutsu. Outlast him chakra wise and the battle is yours. Another thing, itachi is no Einstein. The argument being that itachi would defeat everybody because he is smarter. Itachi is not a mind reader; he cannot see into the future and doesn’t plan twenty-five moves ahead of everybody.
Itachi is a wonderful guesser. He uses information available to him to concoct a strategy based on a perceived outcome. Basically itachi’s strategy is “if A does B then C should do D”. This is a good strategy but it has its flaws. What if A doesn’t do B? What if he has wrong information? What if J pressures A to do Q? Itachi doesn’t have a contingency plan.
Most of his gambles have paid off but a lot haven’t. Should I mention Sasuke?

Sasuke is a criminal

I was appalled when I read this. Even in the Naruto world the same crimes still apply. Murder, attempted murder, kidnapping, conspiracy to commit murder, terrorism, assault on an official, disruption of an international meeting, conspiring with known criminals, treason, and much more.
These are Sasuke’s crimes. They are not minor offences like petty larceny or littering. If kishi pardons sasuke I would be very disappointed. Sasuke has to do something real awesome to get off scotch free but that doesn’t seem to be his trajectory.
Sasuke is a scumbag criminal. To say otherwise is to agree with murder regardless of who the person is. If you catch a pedophile in action and kill him just before he was to “god forbid” violate a child, you would still go to jail for murder even though the world is a better place for kids.

Do not underestimate the hokages

Another foolish statement constantly uttered with little intelligence or points to back up such an assertion is saying that character “x” is weak. Granted that they could be proven correct if only they were to state weak compared to who… the most underrated characters in Naruto according to what you read on narutobase.net are tsunade, hiruzen and minato. If you are going to consider these characters weak at least mention who are they weak against. For example, I would be stoned out of my neighborhood if I were to say that Madara is weak… weak compared to who? The correct statement is Madara is weak compared to the sage of six paths. So before you call a character weak just mention who you are comparing them to. Of course this won’t stop the constant verses threads but those are almost always poorly fashioned, poorly constructed, poorly argued and poorly defended.

Sasuke’s vengeance is blind

LISTEN TO THIS CONVERSATION BETWEEN TOBI AND SASUKE.
Tobi: I am going to ask one important question… after learning about itachi’s life, there is a chance that you will carry out his wish and protect the hidden leaf. Tell me the truth. What are your intentions?
Sasuke: itachi showed me how a man would give his life to protect his village. But for me the sadness of losing itachi impacts me more deeply than how he lived… unbearable more. The peace that itachi sacrificed himself for isn’t appealing to me. Now that I know the truth, following in itachi’s steps to protect the hidden leaf is the last thing I would do. Most of all I will never forgive the three elders. And I believe that everyone in the hidden leaf enjoying the peace gained in exchange for itachi’s life is guilty too.
Tobi; I thought you were only going to kill the elders?
Sasuke: no... I wish to slaughter the entire leaf village by myself. I was just feigning in front of taka.
Tobi: is that the truth? After knowing just what itachi went through to protect the village… instead of carrying on his wish, you’d destroy the village? Are you serious?
Sasuke: you said so yourself. The reason why itachi couldn’t bring himself to kill me was… he cherished my life more than the village. I feel the same way. Itachi’s life is more precious to me than the village. That’s all. They shunned the uchiha. They forced my brother to kill his own parents! The elders who cast him out and sealed his death! And the rest of the hidden leaf who abide by the senju clan! They are nothing but scum! They are all objects of my vengeance! If you want to ridicule me as a brat swayed by his emotions, go ahead. Carrying on itachi’s wish are merely pretty words. The foolish sputtering of those who don’t know hatred. If anyone criticizes my way of life, I’ll kill every single one of their loved ones! Then they might understand a little… of the hatred I carry.

I could spend all afternoon breaking down this conversation and arguing why it is crap but my post is already too long. I will just say: the elders didn’t force itachi to kill anybody, they simply gave him an ultimatum, “either you kill them or we kill them” it was his choice and he made the decision himself. The uchiha are responsible for the uchiha massacre not innocent konoha children. Blaming the senju makes no sense either. Sasuke is not the only orphan in the ninja world. He is not even the only orphan in konoha. You don’t see Kakashi, iruka or Naruto going on rampages plotting to kill innocent children. Even Tobi thinks sasuke is crazy.

Do not underestimate konoha 11

You know the famous troll post. “Tenten can solo the sage of six paths”. This a testament to how little people think of the konoha 11. These ninjas are in no way, style or fashion weak. It’s just that compared to Naruto and sasuke they still have much to improve but together they are more than enough to overwhelm sasuke and Naruto sans kyuubi or bijuu mode up to sage mode maximum. Why? Because Naruto is the protagonist, he will continually get stronger and sasuke being his rival will grow in strength comparable to him. Look at DBZ. At one point in time, krillin, yamcha, choatzu, piccolo and tien were considerable stronger than goku but goku being the protagonist got stronger and stronger because unlike the others goku doesn’t have limitations imposed upon him. He and the other saiyans seem to have a level-up gene. They are constantly unlocking new powers. They are constantly getting stronger. It’s the same with Naruto. The uchiha seem to have the same level-up gene. So the other look weak compared but just like krillin is stronger than the average human just so tenten is stronger than the average fodder ninja.

Kakashi is not weak

A very annoying statement is that Kakashi is weak. I won’t dwell on this much because I personally consider Kakashi to be one of the strongest ninjas in the series. I am not the only one because he could have been made the hokage. That said I ask the question… how many ninjas can face five fully transformed bijuu and survive that long while at the same time being confident in their abilities to win? I rest my case.

The naras are the smartest ninjas

This debate came from an Itachi vs Minato thread where itachi fans claim that itachi is the smartest ninja. I’ve already analyzed itachi’s genius, proving that he is an incredible guesser. Using the information that he has at the moment to predict a possible outcome.
He is great at predicting possible outcomes. Minato on the other hand has tremendous foresight. He not only has lighting fast reaction times and super speed but he is able to come up with a winning strategy on the spot even on his first encounters.
He foresaw Tobi’s fourth Great War, he foresaw naruto’s role in the war, he foresaw killer bee’s involvement in naruto’s development and he foresaw the need of Naruto to tame/master the kyuubi’s chakra. Kishi went to great lengths to illustrate minato's incredible foresight to make it seem as if he could peer into the future. Minato is considered to be a quick footed seer.
The naras on the other hand are completely different ninjas in terms of intelligence. They have the ability to digest, analyze and manipulate large amounts of information in order to plan the outcome of not just battles but entire wars. These are shinobi who think twenty five moves ahead but can change up their strategy depending on the circumstances of situation faced.
Raikage acknowledged konoha's strength because of shikaku’s strategic prowess and even Tobi hates that he has to fight against the intelligence of shikamaru. These endorsements are not to be taken lightly.

Nagato is over hyped = false

Nagato is one of few characters that can beat basically all others in a one on one match. There are very few characters that can defeat Nagato one on one. His rinnegan powers are very godlike. How could he lose to Naruto you may ask? Technically he didn’t lose to Naruto. Plus the dumbest statement ever is that he lost to a book. Nagato foolishly sacrificed his remaining chakra to revive the entire konoha village which he not too long ago destroyed. Why do I say foolishly? Because even before he destroyed konoha he was dangerously low on chakra. If he had instead, let Naruto shoot a giant rasengan at him, absorb it, replenish his chakra and then revived the village he would still be here but then we wouldn’t have Nagato Tobi now would we? Remember that it took itachi, killer bee and Naruto to defeat edo Nagato. Overhyped, he is not.

Itachi would beat minato because he is smarter = false

I’ve already discussed this before and subsequently why minato is smarter than itachi but to be even simpler, how minato would defeat itachi? Simple. Without susano itachi is easy pickings. With susano his chakra will deplete.
Minato can simply outlast itachi in terms of chakra and just annoy him and force him to keep susano activated to guard against his attacks and then when itachi runs out of chakra he is easy pickings again. Yeah I know, hit and run tactics are boring but they are effective. Minato does not have to bypass susano. All he has to do is dodge attacks and keep itachi on guard.
You may say, itachi won’t just stand there he would mount some kind of attack. Sure but would they catch minato?
Scenario… itachi: level 3 susano, yata mirror and amaterasu flame barrier. He says to minato. “COME AT ME BRO!!”
Minato flings a kunai. It’s deflected. Itachi laughs. Minato tries rasengan. It’s no use. Itachi: “your puny attacks are no match for my ultimate defense”. Minato summons toad and distracts itachi while flinging shuriken.
Nothing. Itachi is safe behind susano. Itachi launches several megatamas. Minato dodges. Itachi incinerates minato’s kunai. Minato tries to teleport susano. Uh uh uh says itachi.
This goes on for five minutes. Toad is sealed by sword. Itachi is out of chakra. Minato walks in. kunai to neck. Easy.

A>B>C is a stupid argument

This argument is kindergarten in its depth and preschool in its application. It is the last defense of a person who doesn’t really have an argument but wants to continue anyway.
Simply put it argues that if A defeats B and B defeats C then A can defeat C. it is widely used and not even successfully because a very simple counter to such and argument is this. A=rock B=scissors C=paper.
By this argument rock obviously defeats paper but to do that you basically have to rewrite the rules. This argument is dumb. It should not be used in a intelligent conversation and only people who have nothing left to argue uses it and not even in the proper way such as. A=$100 B=$50 C=$10.

Gaara is no match for “x”, “y” or “z” is just plain retarded

I consider this blasphemy and it is mostly assumed by sasuke and itachi fans. Gaara would rape sasuke. No argument.
They would employ the retarded A>B>C argument stating that dedeira defeated Gaara, sasuke defeated dedeira so sasuke can defeat Gaara. I’ve already argued how this argument fails so they fall back to sasuke was the first one to make Gaara bleed. True.
Yet they always omit the fact that Gaara almost killed sasuke not too long after and it was only because of Naruto why sasuke and sakura are alive. Something they always fail to mention.
Why Gaara is more than a match for anyone; he has amazing chakra, his sand is automatic, he excels at long distance combat, he is a tactical shinobi, he has sand skin that he can shed if hit with fire attacks, earth defeats fire anyway, he can use gold dust, he surpassed his father to become the youngest kazekage and the number one reason… he is Gaara. Nuff said.

Edo summons do not have complete control over their bodies, actions and jutsus.

I recently had an argument with someone who claimed that edo summons have complete control over their actions, bodies and jutsus even though the manga provides evidence against this claim. My post is already toooo long so I won’t tarry much more. The only exception to this rule to this day is, non-other than THE BOSS Madara.

IF YOU TOOK THE TIME TO READ EVERYTHING YOU ARE INVITED TO ATTACK ANYTHING I SAID.
If you didn’t read and just scrolled down to the bottom don’t say too long didn’t read. Nobody was forcing you. Don’t be a three year old.

 

[Daemon]

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Get Zetsu and Itachi off that list..I mean they are awesome and all but not Madara and Tobi awesome.

 

[markdabomb22]

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Can you make it easier to read/make a summery paragraph?

 

[MacMiller]

I usually read long posts but that's too long for me.

 

[TheSages456]

a-b-c logic does work in the case of characters with extremely high power levels. people would agree that

edo madara>rinnegan tobi>BM naruto.

 

[Elio]

Omfg. You typed SO much. xd

 

[kotoamatsukami]

Ooooooo hellll. Nawww to long ill be reading 4 the rest of the day

 

[shogun973]

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Get Zetsu and Itachi off that list..I mean they are awesome and all but not Madara and Tobi awesome.

no offense but itachi can beat tobi theres a reason why he waited until he was gon to start this war lol ever since sasuke itachi was 13 he giving tobi orders

 

[gordo1]

Great post, I agree with basically everything. Only thing is it's Konoha 11, not Konoha 7.

 

[Prince of Persia TTT]

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[ninetailsdemonfox26]

Love the post +rep but how would itachi beat the 4th again not a fan boy or anything just need a little more clarification please thanks

 

[gazmatic]

I wanted to make multiple posts but when I started writing the words just slid out unto the screen. sorry about the length. I will make it shorter.

 

[gazmatic]

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hahahaha... nice. is your life better now? lol

 

[gazmatic]

Love the post +rep but how would itachi beat the 4th again not a fan boy or anything just need a little more clarification please thanks

I said that the fourth would defeat itachi. mainly because he can dodge all of itachi's attacks and just force him to use his chakra

 

[yuan of cruxis]

You did good on the beginging paragraphs, but once you got to Itachi you failed miserably and exposed the fanboy inside you

Minato isnt smarter than Itachi
Minato is simply a watered down Itachi

Itachi is capable of knowing the weaknesses and mechanics of a jutsu and already have the opponent at a loss, and only looking at a jutsu once an knows how to disable it
Itachi had equally impressive intelligence, and was shown to be very wise, something even Tobi acknowledged. He was exceedingly sharp, observant, and intuitive, as he was rarely caught off guard or deceived. This intelligence could also be seen through Itachi's immense foresight; his foreknowledge of Sasuke's defeat of Deidara and simultaneous survival, his own pre-meditated death by Sasuke's hand, and most recently, the implantation of his own Kotoamatsukami-imbued crow inside Naruto were only some examples seen.
Itachi has been shown to be analytical and perceptive, being able to deduce the inner workings and weaknesses of powerful techniques, even while under pressure.[33] He orchestrated his battle against Sasuke to bring about his desired outcomes, and even account for the possibility that his plan wouldn't go as intended by sealing his power into Sasuke and placing a special crow inside of Naruto Uzumaki.[34][35] Even Tobi himself admitted that if he hadn't kept a few secrets from Itachi he would be dead.[36]
On top of his perceptive skills, Kabuto also noted that Itachi possessed skill in deception due to Itachi's ability to read people's feelings, and this made him a ninja of lies up until his death.[37]

Minato only showed about half Itachis intelligence

And guessing is something Minato did, and he also knew he couldnt beat Tobi which he kinda admitted at the end

 

[yuan of cruxis]

I said that the fourth would defeat itachi. mainly because he can dodge all of itachi's attacks and just force him to use his chakra

he cant evade tsukuyomi, and just because Minato has the speed to dodge perhaps the rest of his attacks doesnt mean he wont get hit by hit
its call openings dude

And you must think Itachi is just plain stupid, hes in the top 3 smartest on the show. You put the situation in your favorite characters favor
Saying Itachi would just keep using cahkra and missing as smart as he is. Itachi doesnt have to make the 1st move actually, Minato try warp and hit a shadow clone explosion
And Minato being close a close range fighter would have t come close to do some damage, but guess what he gets hit by a genjutsu then bam he dead
But your a Minato fanboy who thinks he immune to genjutsu huh
Lol Itachi can just point at the dude then its over

Talking about you hate fanboys and you are one

 

[ItachiSan03]

Most of what you said is true +rep for good points and effort.

 

[gazmatic]

Great post, I agree with basically everything. Only thing is it's Konoha 11, not Konoha 7.

thanks. fixed

 

[gazmatic]

he cant evade tsukuyomi, and just because Minato has the speed to dodge perhaps the rest of his attacks doesnt mean he wont get hit by hit
its call openings dude

And you must think Itachi is just plain stupid, hes in the top 3 smartest on the show. You put the situation in your favorite characters favor
Saying Itachi would just keep using cahkra and missing as smart as he is. Itachi doesnt have to make the 1st move actually, Minato try warp and hit a shadow clone explosion
And Minato being close a close range fighter would have t come close to do some damage, but guess what he gets hit by a genjutsu then bam he dead
But your a Minato fanboy who thinks he immune to genjutsu huh
Lol Itachi can just point at the dude then its over

Talking about you hate fanboys and you are one

I really do not want to start a itachi vs anybody thread. to be clear. my top three faves are jaraiya, minato and itachi. I simple stated a hypothetical scenario based on the characters abilities where itachi would lose. I am not kishi. the battle I expounded would be completely unrealistic and boring but I wont go around stating that itachi pawns everybody.

 

[gazmatic]

I agree with you up to the minato is half itachi's intellect. the examples you posted only seek to further my argument that itachi is a good predictor.

mind you. I never said that these four shinobi are not tactical and strategic in battle or that they wont use their intellect to decide the outcome of a battle.

I will repeat what I said. these four use demonstrated their intelligence in completely different ways.

minato knew that tobi would still be a threat and had the foresight to not only seal the kyuubi so that it would not just simple revive some other time and be hunted and used by tobi who can easily control it with his sharingan but he sealed half of its chakra inside of naruto so that it ould be used as a weapon when tobi resurfaced.

itachi predicted the outcome of several scenarios while seemingto always have a backup plan. like I said if A does B then C should... itachi's genius s demonstrated because he always has a contingency plan.

remember his original plan was to make sasuke a hero while keeping him ignorant of the elders involvement in the uchiha massacre. that fell through. plan b. implant KA in naruto so when sasuke seeks power by implanting itachi's eyes it would activate when naruto fought sasuke. that fell through

plan c. trust in naruto to protect konoha and save his lil brother.

I wont b surprised if itachi has a plan z.3

the naras are battle supercomputers. nuff said

understand what I tried to say now..?