[Discussion] 4 things that are labeled as wrong, but arent.

[MidKnight]

Welcome to NB.

The title of your thread is "4 things that are labeled as wrong, but aren't." That is a definitive statement and I read it as, "Society has wrongly labeled those 4 things as bad." You then proceeded to state why society is wrong.

My whole counter-argument was geared towards showing how ironic it is that you are saying that society is wrong without recognizing that society is right in their own eyes and right by the sources of their morals.

Essentially, I interpreted it as "society is wrong and I'm right, but go ahead and tell me what you think." Again, welcome to NB and if I elected to leave my personal opinion on the subject matter out of the discussion, it's because I don't feel like reading peoples' arguments against my opinion i.e. I don't want to give an opinion.

*sigh U_U then why even comment? I specifically stated "What do you think about these things? What do YOU think is right & wrong? If so then WHY? Also if there is something else that is labeled as wrong, but you think is right,please feel free to bring it up" its a shame people cannot comprehend simple instructions.

 

[Hawker]

*sigh U_U then why even comment? I specifically stated "What do you think about these things? What do YOU think is right & wrong? If so then WHY? Also if there is something else that is labeled as wrong, but you think is right,please feel free to bring it up" its a shame people cannot comprehend simple instructions.

'Cause it's their right as forum members.

It's an open discussion. You should just accept the fact that people want to argue with your views.

 

[MidKnight]

I strongly disagree. It is clear what is the moral desicon here, and it should be common sense. Selfishness is wrong, pure and simple. It has been so in philosophies and ethics from the beggining of civilisation. Morals don't come from some deities and higher beings, but from the common sense of living in a society. We get our's from our parents and education and they become our second nature, expressing themselves even trough emotions and empathy.
You say that selfishness is not immoral, that it is justifiable because it is a part of a so called human nature. This opinion is nothing new to me. I've seen this kind of platitude used many times before. It is an excuse of a weakling and a fearful person.
We are no longer animals, roaming trough the wilderness. We have changed and continue to change our nature by the influence of our ever evolving, ever changing society. All that aside, as long as you live there is a chance to learn, to change and better yourself. I will not lie to you, it is hard work. Changing your nature, battling yourself is maybe the hardest thing you'll ever do. Humans are the creatures of habbit, set in their ways. But it is definitely possible -I've seen it happen. Some people will say it is a miracle, a gift from whichever God they worship. I say it is all about will and guts.
Besides, do you honestly want to be friends with a selfish person. I find such individuals obnoxious and annoying.

Why would you do that? What would be the purpose of straying away from who you are? You cannot change yourself, you can cover up what you really are, put your are mearly putting a "paint" over your true surface. That is the problem, we have become afraid to accept who & what we are as an indivdual. Does that make any sense? Lets say that barking becomes labled as wrong, does that mean that dogs are supposed be trained not to bark? Would that make any sense? No it wouldnt. Dogs bark because thats what a dogs do. When we try to change what we truly feel/our nature, just because it becomes labeled as wrong or a taboo we are destroying what makes us exactly what we are individually.

Right and wrong, good or bad (morality) is relativistic. Morality is derived from an individual's/group's collective sense of empathy. IOW good or bad is dependent on the observer's opinion. Thus, right or wrong can not be determined without an individual's/group's frame of reference and does not exist outside of our collective perceptions of morality. I dont think good or right are natural attributes. I can't see good or bad existing from a natural perspective. Properties like straightness, flatness, roundness all exist naturally and is not subject to our opinions, unlike goodness for example.

So, the analogy I made about consciously letting someone suffer/die as a result of one's selfishness is generally considered "wrong" from an individual's/group's perspective. And it could also be considered "right" by another individual's/group's perspective. But...these concepts are inapplicable from a natural perspective.

Exactly, and that is how conflict is spawned. So how does society decide what becomes the norm? The Majorities opinion. And the majority outrule the few. But how does this set the standard? The problem is that the human race has brought itself to rely on the general audience instead of what THEY think is right or wrong. For example, a few people in this thread couldnt tell my why they PERSONALLY thought the things I listed were wrong. They only used references from science, sociology, psycology, etc. Statistics and "facts" provided by the MASS of society (the majority) you know why they couldnt give a simple reply? Because without the answers of others, they have no answers themselves. This is whats called "a lack of individualism" one of the REAL diseases that is destroying who we are as human beings.

 

['Toxic]

Close-minded? Please. Biologically, if you consistently engage in a reproductive manner that does not result in the furtherance of your species, you are doing something that is inherently flawed. You have no legacy and your line/traits/biological make-up ends when you die. What you "feel" has zero bearing on the fact that your activity will not produce an heir. You can "feel" any way you want about your sexual tendencies, but it does not change the fact that the behavior does not result in natural reproduction.

For homosapiens, sexual activity between 2 people of the same *** does not result in a fulfilled process, thus, it is inherently flawed. Over-population is also flawed and I never said it wasn't. Essentially, homosexual individuals do not reproduce, thus, that is a natural flaw just as a person who is sterile also has a natural, biological flaw. Whether you embrace your flaw and take pride in it is irrelevant.

Seriously, you have to resort to calling me "close-minded" when you fail to see the logical error? I can articulate that homosexuality is wrong based on that premise, but it doesn't mean I have to force everyone to agree. You failed to see my point since you want to tell me that I'm wrong for saying that homosexuality could be viewed as wrong from a specific standpoint.

Go back and reread everything I said and leave it within its context. Just because I, or someone else, says something is wrong, doesn't mean you have to believe that it is wrong.

However, there are some things that, even if you don't feel they are wrong, will still have negative consequences associated with that behavior (I'm referencing the Global Rules. Whether you agree with them or not, they are the rules of this forum and if you violate them, there could be consequences)

Just the fact that you associate Homosexuality as a behavior pisses me off, it doesn't matter that you're giving it off as a point of view of whatever. I may not be gay but my mother is so I take stuff people say 'personal'

 

[TouchMyMangos]

Being fat isn't good though. People need to eat healthily.

 

[MidKnight]

'Cause it's their right as forum members.

It's an open discussion. You should just accept the fact that people want to argue with your views.

If Im not mistaken I am the one who clarifed that U_U

 

[RAMENATOR]

Just the fact that you associate Homosexuality as a behavior pisses me off, it doesn't matter that you're giving it off as a point of view of whatever. I may not be gay but my mother is so I take stuff people say 'personal'

Being homosexual may very well be genetic, however i'm not talking a out the lifestyle, i'm talking about the actual sexual behavior as being flawed. However, you're not the only one who has homosexual family members so I highly suggest you really think about what i'm saying. Whether genetic or not, any type of sexual act is considered a behavior. If you encourage your tendencies or supress them, a behavior will eventually result. I hesitate to confirm that homosexuality is not a behavior because a specific gene has not been isolated to prove it. It's still being looked into and I feel it is unwise to say with 100% certainty that it works one way or the other.

 

[Uchihahahaha]

I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I do not want to be offensive in what I say. But America should not support homosexuality. Abortions should be stopped also. Humans have free will, so homosexuals should turn away from homosexuality. It would not be good if these things continue to spread... One of the previous posts made a good point about it.

 

[MidKnight]

Being homosexual may very well be genetic, however i'm not talking a out the lifestyle, i'm talking about the actual sexual behavior as being flawed. However, you're not the only one who has homosexual family members so I highly suggest you really think about what i'm saying. Whether genetic or not, any type of sexual act is considered a behavior. If you encourage your tendencies or supress them, a behavior will eventually result. I hesitate to confirm that homosexuality is not a behavior because a specific gene has not been isolated to prove it. It's still being looked into and I feel it is unwise to say with 100% certainty that it works one way or the other.

So your saying that a sexual desire is a behavior & not instinct right? I dont think that makes much sense at all. Being natrually attacted to something isnt nessecarily a behavior, its instinct. I already stated this In my thread post. Did you even read it carefully? :shrug:

 

[RAMENATOR]

So your saying that a sexual desire is a behavior & not instinct right? I dont think that makes much sense at all. Being natrually attacted to something isnt nessecarily a behavior, its instinct. I already stated this In my thread post. Did you even read it carefully? :shrug:

Since instincts are not set in stone and you have the ability to encourage or discourage those instincts, yes, I can easily see sexual preferance being a form of behavior.

 

[Ldude]

You cant just help it! if you are one of them you feel its OK
but if you arent one of them then you feel its wrong!

Eh. I guess it really just depends on the person.

I agree with 3 and 4, but I know people who are entirely selfless, and we all say "i" sometimes, but that doesn't make you self-centered. Being a brat about it does. So I don't agree with #1. This is just an excuse for people to feel that they can only care about themselves And #2 I also disagree with. These people ARE just perverts.

Another thing people always say is terrible (but I never really thought was so awful, in relation to being overweight) was anorexia... I mean it has the same point as #4... some people just don't like eating very much and choose not to. Is there really anything wrong with that?

(And I know someone is going to say that people die from it, but people can also die from being overweight, I'm talking about normal cases, not the extreme 1% who die), and as you pointed out many things are dangerous... so anyone agree with me about that?

 

[RAMENATOR]

To be completely honest, I don't feel like discussing this matter anymore. If my statements aren't agreeable to you, so be it, because all of the counter-arguments are merely semantics in my opinion and are diversions from my original point: Any or all of those 4 can be seen as right or wrong as it depends on where you draw you morals from. To some they are right and to others they are wrong yet neither side should assert their view as being ultimately correct. I personally can see arguments for both sides but you must choose for yourself and also respect the views of those who don't agree with you. I see that my words are not completely agreeable and that is fine, but I'm not going to continue debating the finer points of a slightly controversial subject.

 

[Hawker]

I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I do not want to be offensive in what I say. But America should not support homosexuality. Abortions should be stopped also. Humans have free will, so homosexuals should turn away from homosexuality. It would not be good if these things continue to spread... One of the previous posts made a good point about it.

You ourself answer your own statement. People can be homosexuals if they feel like it.

And another thing: they can't just away from it. Same as if someone told you and me to stop being heterosexuals..impossible eh? So stop being ignorant 'cause you lack logic.

 

[Uchihahahaha]

You ourself answer your own statement. People can be homosexuals if they feel like it.

And another thing: they can't just away from it. Same as if someone told you and me to stop being heterosexuals..impossible eh? So stop being ignorant 'cause you lack logic.

I do not understand what you mean by "logic." I think you missed my point. But sorry, I just gave my point of view. Obviously, I do not know everything. And I am not homosexual, so I do not know the conflict that they are in. Of course it might be hard for them to turn away from it......... And yeah people can be homosexuals if they feel like it, but that still was not the point. This thread is about right vs. wrong, and I explained that I thought it was wrong. Anyway, I will stop because I do not want to argue.

 

[Pavoneo]

I do not understand what you mean by "logic." I think you missed my point. But sorry, I just gave my point of view. Obviously, I do not know everything. And I am not homosexual, so I do not know the conflict that they are in. Of course it might be hard for them to turn away from it......... And yeah people can be homosexuals if they feel like it, but that still was not the point. This thread is about right vs. wrong, and I explained that I thought it was wrong. Anyway, I will stop because I do not want to argue.

You can't force yourself to be sexually attracted to something you're not. It's just not possible. So why do people hate on homosexuals when they can't help but be sexually attracted to another man? It's not something that's controllable. People try to "get the gay" out of them per say, does it ever work? No. If they think it did work, they're lying to you and themselves. Sexual desire is human nature, what you're sexually attracted to isn't up to you.

 

[MidKnight]

You can't force yourself to be sexually attracted to something you're not. It's just not possible. So why do people hate on homosexuals when they can't help but be sexually attracted to another man? It's not something that's controllable. People try to "get the gay" out of them per say, does it ever work? No. If they think it did work, they're lying to you and themselves. Sexual desire is human nature, what you're sexually attracted to isn't up to you.

Thats what everybody doesnt seem to understand :sy: I dont really have to repeat myself because Its written at # 3 In my post. Why cant people understand something that really isnt that complex? I dont think they have an answer for why they think it is wrong. So they just rely on the answers (opinions) of others. Thats the problem, people are taught to dislike things and they dont even know why they dont like it themselves personally. What ever happened to individualism?

 

[Ebi..]

you may have a point xd didnt read just spamming >.>

 

[Supermacaquecool]

We live In a world of labels. Everything has a lable and everthing falls into a category. But who are we to contradict another human being, when we are all In the same "boat" living In this harsh reality?

1. Selfishness: This is a natural instinct. The opposite of selfishness, which is selflessness, is something that we must become aware of through instinct & knowledge & continiue to develope as an act or moral value. Therefore it is not instinct (natural). For example, When you are hungry. The first thought that appears In your head isnt "Is someone hungry?" or "I wonder how many people are hungry?" No. The first thought that appears In your head is "I am hungry" or "Man, I'm starving" Your concern for someone elses hunger such as "Are you hungry?" or "I'm starving, what about you?" comes secondary to your own desire, therfore it is not instinct. This is selfishness, on a small scale, but it is still selfishness. Being selfish is inevitable, because human beings are natrually selfish. How can instinct be labeled as wrong? It cant. I dont think it is selfishness itself that we are aware of, but rather the guilt of being selfish that bothers us.

2.A strong desire for lust (being a "pervert"):An extreamly strong *** drive, or strong desire for lust, is something that has been labeled by all areas of society. Religion,culture,gender, etc. It has been labeled from being called a sin, being "perverted" or "a pervert" etc,etc. Humans are natrually sexually oriented creatures. EVERY human being (Excluding children) has experieced a desire for lust in some kind of way. Weither it was a thought, a reaction, or an actual act of sexuality. However, there are some of us who have a stonger desire for this than other human beings. Those of us who have more than just "a stong *** drive" have been labeled for something that we natrually feel. We are either called a pervert, a wh***, etc. How is this wrong? Is there a limit on the amount of sexual desire that a human being can have before he or she falls into a category? You can measure,pounds & inches,etc. But you cannot measure the emotion or desire of another human being. Once again, I feel that guilt plays a huge role In people who are like this an feel ashamed. Why should you feel guilt from something that is human nature? Your human nature.

3.Homosexuality: This is also something that has been highly looked down upon. Here is something that most people dont realize about gays. Gays do not wake up one day and say "I think I want to be gay" or "From now own, I am gay". Is it possible that a scenario like this can occurr and one can put this into a form of practice? Yes, it is. But it would be false. We cannot change what we are attracted to at will. A straight man cannot wake up one day & say "Today I'm going to be attracted to men." because he is straight, if he does so other wise that would change his sexual preference. There are only two things 1.You must become AWARE that you are gay, 2.You must ACCEPT that you are gay. Gays are instinctively attracted to the same gender, attaction is a natural human instinct. When someone says "I think I'm gay" or "I might be turning gay" they are becoming aware of something that they have been all along. They just hadnt discovered it instictively or became aware of it. When someone finally admits that they are gay, they are accepting their sexual preference which is what they are attracted to. How the hell is it wrong to be natrually attacted to something? Does that make any sense at all? I dont think it does.

4.Being Fat (overweight):Being fat is also something that is becomming more looked down upon as we progress. There is something that we all have as human beings, and that is free will. WE are In controll of our bodies. If we choose to eat a certain way or look a certain way, we have every right to do so as human beings. Some people are fat because of genetics, some are fat because of disorders, and some just became fat of their own free will. But how is this neccesarily wrong? There is pleasure In taste, even those who just "eat to live, not live to eat" find some amount of pleasure (non-sexual ofc) from taste and the satisfaction of being full. The pleasure of taste, and the satisfaction of being full is a natrual instinct, is there a limit on the amount of satisfaction that we can feel from food? And then people always play the "health risk card". EVERYONE is at risk of health problems. An athelete is at risk of permanantly damaging their bodies, or possibly obtaining a lethal injury. Even those who just "work out to stay healty" are at risk of harming themselve. Also being skinny does not make you healty. Skinny people can develope eating disorders to stay skinny, skinny people are also at risk of heart disease and other health issues as fat people are. Just because we feel a certain way about how something should look, or looks, we do not have the right to pass judgement on that individual. We are ALL human beings. And we can look any damn way we please because that is our natrual given right.

What do you think about these things? What do YOU think is right & wrong? If so then WHY? Also if there is something else that is labeled as wrong, but you think is right,please feel free to bring it up U_U.

I agree with all but selfishness is a different issue. Some pple can be so selfish that it turns to wickedness and greedyness. I don't see why pple should have more than enough of something and not be willing to allow some for pple that need it more than them :shrug:

About a) I think is human nature to try to have resources to survive, so I agree with ya. Although it is said we gather in society to increase our chances to survive, the resources do not increase due that, they're always limited, therefore there's always competition in every social core (human or animal).
ABout b) Well, I agree with ya in this. I just can say that women are easily labeled as wh#res cause they can get pregnant. Marriage (anthropologically speaking) was bornt as a association to ensure male's offspring across an agreement of exclusiveness with females. But given that a woman always knows "this child is mine" and men cannot be sure always, men tried to keep "their" off range. Since in antient there was few ways to avoid pregnancy, women did not have sexual freedom, while men usually could cheat cause no one can force a woman to have a child it's not hers (Though women can be forced to have ***, but that's other story). It's basically due the double standard on sexuality.
About c), I think it is an instrument of social cohesion, so I agree.
About d)I think everyone gonna die, and it's umpredictable the way we'll do it.
Scientist ppl say its bad to be obese cause it decreases lifespan. But you could be super healthy and die at your 20s. We have fear to death and that's why we try all sort of ways to avoid it. But in the end it doesn't matter, we gonna die.
So I would rather live as I please, instead following stereotypes.
In short, I agree with ya.

1. Agree, its just the way some people act when they have a lot that is wrong, not being selfish itself.
2. Completely agree as long as people aren't spread diseases around then what is wrong with it.
3. Agree, but you say what is wrong with being naturally attracted to something, surely there must be a line where to draw this. What if you were attracted to sheep??
4. Agree but I think the main problem is that people think "oh they are fat when people are starving"??

There are so many other things similar in this world though.
Why is Polygamy illegal? Not many animals stay faithful to one partner?
Why are some drugs (the ones that don't cause a problem to the community) illegal? It is your body?

I could go on but it is effort. Good thread +rep!

About point 2. You're defitively right.

The 3 first are definitely WRONG to whoever believes in God, ( god created man and woman to love each other and be one with each other ) what good comes from being a homosexual... only diseases and sick minds ( IMO ).... let it be a Muslim or a christian... or even anyone who believes in religion in general or in a spirit like Budha or others for those people the points you stated are considered Sins.. how can those not be Wrong.... you're explanation lacks logic and is one sided. ( that's how I look at it, and that's my opinion ).

The 4th one is simply stupid to think it's wrong, people who have a problem with one being fat are the true disgusting, racist people! ( this is also how I look at it, and My opinion ).

***But the main point is, We all look at the world differently so these kind of threads are useless ( no offend to the maker ), it's good to share what you think, but it's wrong to say that the society is wrong for each having his own opinion and point of view.

Well of course its opinion because at the end of the day, thats all it is. Just our opinions on what we think is right or wrong. Its just that certain cultures and other branches of society as a whole are so arrogant, that they believe their opinions and personal point of views to be an actual fact. When it isnt a fact at all, just opinion. And these certain areas of society that I just mentioned, just happen to be the majority. And the majority outrule the few. The Majority being the ones that see these things as wrong, the few being the ones who dont believe these things are wrong.

I don't think homosexuality is wrong under the eyes of God, cause if that entity created everything, so homosexuality.

 

[Darthlawsuit]

This should be: 4 things I think should be changed. Just because you think they aren't wrong doesn't mean others don't disagree and they could make the same arguements against them

 

[MidKnight]

This should be: 4 things I think should be changed. Just because you think they aren't wrong doesn't mean others don't disagree and they could make the same arguements against them

Well, if you disagree then feel free to express yourself. The thing is, is that NO ONE who disagreed gave their PERSONAL opinion on why THEY think its wrong, instead of why society as a whole thinks these things are wrong. They only referenced culture,,science,etc. Some people dont have their own answers, so they rely on the opinions of others (the majority) and uses them as a crutch