[Discussion] Philosophical Discussion 3

[Pavoneo]

Yay the third discussion thread . So, let me just note: This is going to be hard for me to try to explain because I suck with keyboard typing. :3. Tbh this is an interesting thought that came across my mind.

[EDIT] Argument at hand: Our choices are illusions. [/EDIT]

So, my opinion. Everything we do is sub-consciously planned out due to our human nature and development, it's hard to explain so I guess I could give an example. Say you're in school and you're going to go get lunch with a friend and for whatever reason he was being annoying so he felt like asking you these questions :3.

You: "Whatever, I'll get a bagel."
Friend: "Why?"
You: "I don't know, because I'm hungry?"
Friend: "Well, there's all these options, so why didn't you get anything else and only that bagel?"
You: "Umm? I don't know, I like bagels?"
Friend: "Why?"
You: "Because they taste good? :s"
Friend: "So it really wasn't you decision to get the bagel, but because it's what tastes the best to you that made you decide to get the bagel?"
You: "Well, I guess so.. If you word it like that.."
Friend: "So you could argue that it's because of your human development that you got that bagel, and it wasn't a seemingly spontaneous decision."

That's sort of the point that I'm trying to get across here. xD sorry for the bad example, I couldn't really think of anything off the top of my head that could explain this better. Erghh, if you understand the point I'm trying to get across, do you agree? Or do you think something else?
Let me know, I'm interested in your guys' opinions^^

P.S. Read the thread before commenting. >.<

 

[Abysmal.]

I can only agree that the example wasn't the best. But I guess I got the general gist of it and I disagree.

What about reflexes ? You do not think about it nor are they something you plan.

 

[Dantee]

How about this. Choice is an illusion by the people in power. In this case your taste buds was in power thus making you want a bagel.

I got this from the matrix btw.

 

[Blutengel]

I don't like bagels.



~end of debate

 

[Swizzik]

Depends on what you consider spontaneous.

 

[Out Of Ctrl]

You are basically talking about Free Will and whether we have it or not?

 

[Pavoneo]

How about this. Choice is an illusion by the people in power. In this case your taste buds was in power thus making you want a bagel.

I got this from the matrix btw.

This is basically the point I was trying to get across, we don't have choices, it's merely an illusion. Sorry, I'm not good at wording things. xD tbh, I never really understood reflexes. If anyone has information on how they work and stuff (without me having to read some huge article) please tell me. :3

@TheEye Mmm, when it comes to making decisions, no we don't have free will.

 

[ZK]

Well, there is no discussion here.
Really, how could I possible counter-argument your oppinion that our subconsciousness controls everything?
If someone said 'the Matrix is real', I wouldn't agree, but I'd have no way of proving the other faction wrong.
But I believe choices are based on information. Just as someone can read our choices and manipulate our choices by the use of our and his/her body-language, we change our choice based on information.
Following the 'bagel-example', maybe you had encountered a few signs, shapes, etcetera that reminded you of a bagel and made you think of a bagel when you became aware of your hunger. But while the bagel might be your 'first-choice', since you thought of it, there are hundreds of different kinds of bagels, and you wouldn't hesitate to choose something else if something else became available. You simply expressed a verbal wish for a bagel, that does not mean that you have already chosen a bagel.

 

[The Eye]

We are guided by our conscious/sub-conscious thinking?

 

[Darthlawsuit]

I make my choices on what to eat based on what my stomach responds that I need to eat. If I need protein I will eat more meat. If it desires fiber more veggies. If it just wants energy then carbohydrates. Of course peppers are always tasty

If I cannot decide I get an outside opinion.

 

[Pavoneo]

I make my choices on what to eat based on what my stomach responds that I need to eat. If I need protein I will eat more meat. If it desires fiber more veggies. If it just wants energy then carbohydrates. Of course peppers are always tasty

If I cannot decide I get an outside opinion.

That's kind of proving my point. Your stomach is what's really deciding what you're eating.

How about this. Choice is an illusion by the people in power. In this case your taste buds was in power thus making you want a bagel.

Basically trying to say this^ except your stomach is in power (in your situation) of what's making you get what you want. You're doing what's best for your body, whether it needs energy/protein/etc. You're getting what is best for your stomach, it's not your brain deciding what it wants. If that makes sense :s

Well, there is no discussion here.
Really, how could I possible counter-argument your oppinion that our subconsciousness controls everything?
If someone said 'the Matrix is real', I wouldn't agree, but I'd have no way of proving the other faction wrong.
But I believe choices are based on information. Just as someone can read our choices and manipulate our choices by the use of our and his/her body-language, we change our choice based on information.
Following the 'bagel-example', maybe you had encountered a few signs, shapes, etcetera that reminded you of a bagel and made you think of a bagel when you became aware of your hunger. But while the bagel might be your 'first-choice', since you thought of it, there are hundreds of different kinds of bagels, and you wouldn't hesitate to choose something else if something else became available. You simply expressed a verbal wish for a bagel, that does not mean that you have already chosen a bagel.

Well, firstly I didn't really ask you to come up with a counter argument, just your opinion :3. And secondly, umm.. We make decisions with what's being presented to us, if you change what's being presented, the outcome would be changed due to more of a beneficial item/idea than another. Like, Ughh how can i word this.

Foods you like (in order of least to favourite): Meatloaf, Hamburger, Salad, Bagel, Spaghetti.

Foods presented in a given situation: Bagel, Salad, Meatloaf

Now, obviously here you'd choose the Bagel, since it's the food that you like the most (due to your taste buds)

New situation presented: Meatloaf, Salad, Spaghetti, Bagel

Now your preferences of what you're going to get here change because you like Spaghetti more than a Bagel. (Again, due to the fact that your taste buds tend to have more of a liking to Spaghetti than bagels).

Not really sure if this makes sense^^ sorry if you don't understand..

 

[Olorin]

We are always free to make a choice, we can never escape that freedom, we always have to choose. Circumstances make us make decisions that we would not do if we were free of everything so we make decisions in anguish ...

ah im too tired to figure out how to explain this read some Sartre if youre interested

 

[Strata Uchiha]

How about this. Choice is an illusion by the people in power. In this case your taste buds was in power thus making you want a bagel.

I got this from the matrix btw.

Wow....that's deep son. Swamp deep.

This is gonna be a very fascinating thread. *shifts hands up and down*

 

[ZK]

Well, firstly I didn't really ask you to come up with a counter argument, just your opinion :3. And secondly, umm.. We make decisions with what's being presented to us, if you change what's being presented, the outcome would be changed due to more of a beneficial item/idea than another. Like, Ughh how can i word this.

Foods you like (in order of least to favourite): Meatloaf, Hamburger, Salad, Bagel, Spaghetti.

Foods presented in a given situation: Bagel, Salad, Meatloaf

Now, obviously here you'd choose the Bagel, since it's the food that you like the most (due to your taste buds)

New situation presented: Meatloaf, Salad, Spaghetti, Bagel

Now your preferences of what you're going to get here change because you like Spaghetti more than a Bagel. (Again, due to the fact that your taste buds tend to have more of a liking to Spaghetti than bagels).

Not really sure if this makes sense^^ sorry if you don't understand..

You basically repeated what I wrote, so you must've understood at least some parts of it. Yes, we change our decision with what's being presented to us, aka, we change our decision based on new information.
@ Bold2: I'm pretty sure you're simplifying it too much. You make the assumption that we base all choices regarding food on our tastebuds, which is incorrect. You might want a gigantic soda on a date, but if you know your date wants wine, you usually don't order soda. Or, for example, maybe you had a bad experience with a bagel when you were a kid, that kind of experience can alter your perception of bagels to not 'like' them. Not in the sense that they don't taste well to you, simply that you don't want to eat them. Maybe you watched a McDonals commercial that promoted their bagels and were encaptured by the small, subliminal messages in it and decided to get a bagel.
All your choices are based on hundreds of thousands of things, not just something as simple as your tastebuds. In theory, you can argue that we don't actually have any choices because your consciousness and body 'controls' you, but that'd be like saying that a democratic nation has never made any laws or regulations because they have a lot of people voting about the decisions.

 

[Pavoneo]

You basically repeated what I wrote, so you must've understood at least some parts of it. Yes, we change our decision with what's being presented to us, aka, we change our decision based on new information.
@ Bold2: I'm pretty sure you're simplifying it too much. You make the assumption that we base all choices regarding food on our tastebuds, which is incorrect. You might want a gigantic soda on a date, but if you know your date wants wine, you usually don't order soda. Or, for example, maybe you had a bad experience with a bagel when you were a kid, that kind of experience can alter your perception of bagels to not 'like' them. Not in the sense that they don't taste well to you, simply that you don't want to eat them. Maybe you watched a McDonals commercial that promoted their bagels and were encaptured by the small, subliminal messages in it and decided to get a bagel.
All your choices are based on hundreds of thousands of things, not just something as simple as your tastebuds. In theory, you can argue that we don't actually have any choices because your consciousness and body 'controls' you, but that'd be like saying that a democratic nation has never made any laws or regulations because they have a lot of people voting about the decisions.

Mmm, I think I get what you're saying now. I was oversimplifying it because I wanted people to I guess get the general gist of what I was trying to say. It does indeed depend on other things like your past experiences with those decisions. Sorry I didn't really understand it too much at first but I get what you're trying to say now, and that is very true. Thanks. :3

 

[Aze]

We are guided by our conscious/sub-conscious thinking?

sub-conscious gives us hundreds of options and conscious chooses one of them randomly.

Have you ever second guessed yourself?

Think of a number 5.

Now think of a number 25.

And now try to figure out why did you think about number 5.

And try to think if you where thinking about number 25 before you where thinking about number 5?

Actualy you thinked about every possible number that included 5 and 2 (55 , 22 , 52 , 555 ,2222 ,5555 ).

And you choose the number 5.

Strange isnt it?

Our brain can make these arrangements very fast so we wont even notice them happening.

The thing that keeps them in balance are certain chemicals in our body and brain.

Some people have very low portions of these chemicals : and they can be mentaly ill.

Bio-chemistry and the way how we think is related and they benefit each other.

Otherwise we wont excist today was we are.​