Itachi's susanoo is not invincible.

[MeIsOsUmSoS]

Who do you think would take the time to read all of those words.

 

[9Bijuu]

Who do you think would take the time to read all of those words.

The majority for people that read this thread. Anyone wih an iq score in the double digits, honestly.

 

[Kratos of cruxis]

Good thread but nagato cant see chakra only chakra barriers so he wouldnt have seen itachi

 

[FizzyDrink]

I must say I really enjoyed reading this thread, especially the point about the Sword of Totsuka's sealing speed, I had never thought of that but it makes sense. The case of the Yata Shield is where I believe you are wrong, as has been mentioned by others. I do believe overwhelming attacks would work, and that it would only be able to block a portion of the attack. And of course it would do nothing to a jutsu that gets around it. But I do personally believe that it can block any attack that hits it. You even admitted to someone else that they possiblu proved you wrong in respect to this, so I won't make an argument because I liked his/hers.

Another thing. When you used the example of the Raikage punching Sasuke through the Amaterasu-ed susanoo, remember that the full Susanoo has "flesh", so he would be unable to punch between the bones. This would also make pulling Itachi out impossible, since you can't pull him out through something that has no holes. This would also make the full on physical attacks, like Tsunade's punch, exponentially more difficult to get through, since the "flesh" could absorb some of the impact.

Still, as you mentioned, there is no defending the bottom. Also, I would like to add to your argument. Try this out for size:

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Here there is clearly a gap at the back end of susanoo. And this is a FULL susanoo. Sasuke's just looks different than Itachi's. So a full susanoo still has a gap, besides the bottom.

Also, when you mentioned Nagato being hit mainly due to plot no jutsu, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't he still crippled? So he couldn't avoid it anyways.

 

[MasterofSenjutsu]

Very nice theory/argument/pov! It makes sense and it doesn't leave the boundaries of what happens in the manga. I will say that there are some flaws and speculations that could conflict with part of your theory (like the part about the size of the Yata mirror), but overall really good! Itachi always did say there was a weakness to every jutsu, even his.

I must say I really enjoyed reading this thread, especially the point about the Sword of Totsuka's sealing speed, I had never thought of that but it makes sense. The case of the Yata Shield is where I believe you are wrong, as has been mentioned by others. I do believe overwhelming attacks would work, and that it would only be able to block a portion of the attack. And of course it would do nothing to a jutsu that gets around it. But I do personally believe that it can block any attack that hits it. You even admitted to someone else that they possiblu proved you wrong in respect to this, so I won't make an argument because I liked his/hers.

Another thing. When you used the example of the Raikage punching Sasuke through the Amaterasu-ed susanoo, remember that the full Susanoo has "flesh", so he would be unable to punch between the bones. This would also make pulling Itachi out impossible, since you can't pull him out through something that has no holes. This would also make the full on physical attacks, like Tsunade's punch, exponentially more difficult to get through, since the "flesh" could absorb some of the impact.

Still, as you mentioned, there is no defending the bottom. Also, I would like to add to your argument. Try this out for size:

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Here there is clearly a gap at the back end of susanoo. And this is a FULL susanoo. Sasuke's just looks different than Itachi's. So a full susanoo still has a gap, besides the bottom.

This is the only part I want to disagree with. On a full Susanoo, you cannot see the spine of the embodiment, but you clearly see it on this one. So, I do not think this is a complete Susanoo.

Sorry for double-posting.

 

[dinu23]

why dnt v be patient and wait for it......

 

[FizzyDrink]

This is the only part I want to disagree with. On a full Susanoo, you cannot see the spine of the embodiment, but you clearly see it on this one. So, I do not think this is a complete Susanoo.

Sorry for double-posting.

Actually, it is a full Susano'o, the chapter before that is entitled "A Full Susano'o" or something like that, and also, Susano'o only has 2 forms, the skeletal, and the full. So that must be Sasuke's version of a full Susano'o.

 

[Shin Zangetsu]

I must say I really enjoyed reading this thread, especially the point about the Sword of Totsuka's sealing speed, I had never thought of that but it makes sense. The case of the Yata Shield is where I believe you are wrong, as has been mentioned by others. I do believe overwhelming attacks would work, and that it would only be able to block a portion of the attack. And of course it would do nothing to a jutsu that gets around it. But I do personally believe that it can block any attack that hits it. You even admitted to someone else that they possiblu proved you wrong in respect to this, so I won't make an argument because I liked his/hers.

Another thing. When you used the example of the Raikage punching Sasuke through the Amaterasu-ed susanoo, remember that the full Susanoo has "flesh", so he would be unable to punch between the bones. This would also make pulling Itachi out impossible, since you can't pull him out through something that has no holes. This would also make the full on physical attacks, like Tsunade's punch, exponentially more difficult to get through, since the "flesh" could absorb some of the impact.

Still, as you mentioned, there is no defending the bottom. Also, I would like to add to your argument. Try this out for size:

You must be registered for see links

Here there is clearly a gap at the back end of susanoo. And this is a FULL susanoo. Sasuke's just looks different than Itachi's. So a full susanoo still has a gap, besides the bottom.

Also, when you mentioned Nagato being hit mainly due to plot no jutsu, if I'm not mistaken, wasn't he still crippled? So he couldn't avoid it anyways.

It's terrible that you can read so selectively. I'm not trying to be offensive but some elements in this thread and a lot of the responses are filled with so much error and lack of research to back up statements fully. :sy:
That gap was opened up by Danzou's wind technique which was strengthened by the Baku's suction IN THE PREVIOUS PAGE!!! Sorry for caps but how can you miss that detail and present an argument ignoring it?

This is the only part I want to disagree with. On a full Susanoo, you cannot see the spine of the embodiment, but you clearly see it on this one. So, I do not think this is a complete Susanoo.

Sorry for double-posting.

How could you miss it as well? This is a full Susano'o. The spine only showed where the attack hit and regenerated after. There was no gap. The fully protected back is shown here. Before Danzou rips that hole in it.

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[FizzyDrink]

It's terrible that you can read so selectively. I'm not trying to be offensive but some elements in this thread and a lot of the responses are filled with so much error and lack of research to back up statements fully. :sy:
That gap as opened up by Danzou's wind technique which was strengthened by the Baku's suction IN THE PREVIOUS PAGE. Sorry for caps but how can you miss that detail and present an argument ignoring it.



How could you miss it as well? This is a near full Susano'o. The spine only showed where the attack hit and regenerated after. There was no gap. The fully protected back is shown here. Before Danzou rips that hole in it.

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Danzo didn't rip a hole open in Susano'o. The suction trapped Susano'o, making it immobile. That allowed Danzo to get behind it, where he found the weak spot. The suction only served the purpose of making Susano'o unable to move. As a result, all Susanoos should have that weak spot, it's just really that it's hard to get behind it.

Edit: Forget this entire response, you're totally correct. I had never realized that. My bad. At the very least, however, it does provide definite proof that a full Susanoo can be penetrated Albeit with a very powerful jutsu that is being aided by a very powerful summon).

And I wasn't being selective, that was just something I had never noticed any of the times I had read that battle. I just missed it. No need to attack me for it, it was an honest mistake.

 

[veiga]

get a life.

 

[Ultimatevirus]

no one said itachi's susano is invincible ... its just that it is too powerful for even S class shinobis to defeat when it is specially combined with itachi's intelligence

 

[Sephy100]

I love how you said ITACHI's susanoo is not invincible but you only show Madara and Sasuke and barely show Itachi. If you're going to say Itachi's then use images of Itachi, oh wait we've only seen Itachi's a handful of times. It's clear that each Susanoo is different to the wielder and as such has different attacks and different weapons.

 

[Madaraforever]

Itachi is strong and powerful but yeah everybody has a weakness. I only know one person and thats "the sage of the six paths."

 

[Shin Zangetsu]

Danzo didn't rip a hole open in Susano'o. The suction trapped Susano'o, making it immobile. That allowed Danzo to get behind it, where he found the weak spot. The suction only served the purpose of making Susano'o unable to move. As a result, all Susanoos should have that weak spot, it's just really that it's hard to get behind it.

Edit: Forget this entire response, you're totally correct. I had never realized that. My bad. At the very least, however, it does provide definite proof that a full Susanoo can be penetrated Albeit with a very powerful jutsu that is being aided by a very powerful summon).

And I wasn't being selective, that was just something I had never noticed any of the times I had read that battle. I just missed it. No need to attack me for it, it was an honest mistake.

I didn't really attack you and I wasn't rude although I did admittedly use a harder tone. But it's fine since you saw the mistake.

It was just shocking that such a detail could be missed. I actually thought you left it out on purpose. With the crowd I'm used to we usually have full knowledge of the subject matter before supporting or opposing a concept. I just don't see much of that here and it does get a little annoying.

 

[zombiejesus]

yea we all know every jutsu has weakness we get it

 

[Shamami]

It could be but it can also be broken down into limited chakra per time which I prefer since it balances out totsuka. Regardless, instant seals would just be too OP and even kishi is aware of that.

That is cuz itachi himself is OP. every character has a weakness. Itachi has extremely high power, intelligence, chakra ( due to being uchiha) but low stamina ( due to sickness i presume)

And seriously are u arguing that it needs to impale to seal. its a spiritual item move it in any direction on a target and the result would be an instant seal cuz its ghost like.

Itachi full form susanoo had been shown twice not once

You talk as if u made the anime. You r not the one who balances things, but kishi does........so ur talk about limited chakra per time is all assumption.

hope this helps

 

[Scryed]

I agree with most of your points. Note that Kabuto was using Nagato back then and blamed Nagato's mobility for not being able to dodge Totsuka. So it could be that Kabuto saw Totsuka coming but since Nagato was still crippled, he wasn't ble to dodge it. By the way, if Dust Release were to be used on Susanoo, it might wind up disintegrating Itachi and Susanoo but the shield would be the only that would remain. To protect it's user, the Yata Mirror is better off blocking head-on attacs since the shield itself is what repels.

Unless, it could completely change its shape and surround Susanoo from all directions like i've heard many say.

 

[Shamami]

srry if ive double posted but ur argument against onokis technique is also irrelevant cuz onoki wud hv used it against madara if he found it effective, but he didnt why....either one of 2 reasons:

1) plot no jutsu

2) its useless against susanoo

if its useless against madaras susanoo then it wud definatley be useless against itachis who also has yatasaka mirror.

 

[Baldy]

One argument I always see people use for Itachi's fights is simply, "He uses susanoo, blocks all jutsu with yata mirror and then sword of totsuka is a one hit KO." Personally I think this is blatant ignorance so I'm just going to make a thread breaking down Itachi's susanoo and showing its flaws, like he said, "All jutsu have a weakness." In this case there's four.

*Also, keep in mind I'm not saying his susanoo is bad or anything short of amazing - I'm just saying it's not invincible or a guaranteed win in a fight!*

Weakness #1 - The Susanoo Itself.

We'll start with the susanoo itself - it's considered the ultimate defence yet lately we've been seeing it torn to shreds. It was invincible the first time it was used but that was thanks to the protection of the yata mirror which we'll get to (Edit: I should note that when I say susanoo itself and link you to OTHER people's susanoo being broken it's to show the technique in general can be broken, we didn't see enough of Itachi's susanoo for it to get broken and still haven't but it's obviously not uncommon for susanoo to get slapped around a bit).

So here's susanoo getting simply broken, there are more examples (quite a few more actually) but I think these will get the point across:

Raikage punching through it:

Spoiler

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Tsunade devastating it with a kick:

Spoiler

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Raikage b***h slapping Sasuke through an amaterasu doused susanoo:

Spoiler

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The mizukage, Mei, melting susanoo:

Spoiler

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Tsunade broke it with taijutsu, Mei with ninjutsu, raikage with his special nintaijutsu. While these are not full powered susanoo which may not be possible to break, or at least with such ease, here's another huge physical weakness of susanoo:

Spoiler

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That giant hole in the bottom is a huge problem. A large number of jutsu such as most water style, lava style, earth style, special jutsu like Jiraiya's flame oil he used against pain can easily slip under susanoo either killing or heavily injuring the user. While it's possible to dodge, a large enough jutsu could cause the user of susanoo many problems.

On top of this the user can be ripped out of their susanoo into an oncoming attack as is the main point of this picture, Gaara yanked out Madara and threw him in front of a rasenshuriken but it's very possible even Naruto could remove someone from susanoo via chakra arms in KM. There are more than likely many other methods to abuse this flaw.

Weakness #2 - Mangekyou Sharingan.

The only requirement for susanoo is the mangekyou sharingan which is in and of itself a giant flaw. Currently Itachi is the only ninja without EMS that's capable of susanoo (to our knowledge, at least) which is a huge flaw in his susanoo. Each time he uses it, possibly even each second that he's using it his eye sight worsens. While this is also caused by amaterasu and tsukuyomi I feel it's more applicable to his susanoo as from what we've seen it takes an equally large toll on eye sight if not more so due to its extended use.

While many would consider this a more minor flaw I feel it's extremely large as the susanoo will eventually destroy itself, while it seems edo-tensei makes Itachi immune to this effect assuming he was alive this flaw would be capable of fairly easily destroying his susanoo and himself.

Weakness #3 - The Yata Mirror.

While this mirror is a huge boon it's also a huge risk. It's not a true weakness but the point of this thread is to point out that his susanoo is not invincible so I'll treat its flaws as weaknesses for the sake of showing Itachi's susanoo is not perfect.

While I had an argument up here against the yata mirror, I've decided to take it down and take another approach. Instead of simply removing this I'll in turn correct my mistake and say that the Yata mirror is most likely immune to ALL elemenetal jutsu, whether or not it's weak to non-elemental jutsu or taijutsu is still up to debate though in my opinion. A poster, AkiraHikari, pointed out the fact that the shield may just negate the jutsu via using an equal amount of the same element of chakra, similar to how Kakashi negated Kakuzu's lightning jutsu via intercepting it and applying equal amounts of chakra.
What's more is when we get into a highly advanced bloodline technique like dust release. Not only is it made of multiple and sometimes opposing elements but it's designed to utterly disintegrate things - odds are the yata mirror wouldn't be able to prevent this jutsu and may be destroyed in the process.

I still believe that dust release can crush susanoo, more than before, in fact. First off the Yata mirror doesn't cover the whole susanoo which I'll talk about in more detail below, it only covers part of the susanoo. Because of this, I feel a large enough dust release technique (and we've seen some large dust release which I'll show a picture of shortly) can literally surround susanoo itself and obliterate everything within. Whether or not yata mirror can stop it at that point is debatable but I feel it's something to give some thought.

The huge dust release:

Spoiler

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Another flaw, while less promoted, is the fact that it's only a shield. It applies to only certain parts of susanoo, namely the front, and leaves all other areas vulnerable. Assuming a jutsu is re-directable it's not a stretch to say the jutsu could simply be used on a different part of susanoo, which while it isn't a vulnerable spot is actually breakable.

Weakness #4 - The Sword of Totsuka.

Now we're at the part I've been dying to talk about. The legendary sword of totsuka, a weapon that merely has to slice you to seal you away into an eternity of drunken dreams. Thankfully though, it's not that cut and dry - as a matter of fact it's downright difficult to hit with and when Nagato got hit by the sword it was purely due to plot no jutsu which we'll get to shortly.

First off, the sword can't just cut you. You can't be slashed and sealed, the sword literally needs to impale you.

Here's the two reasons I feel you need to be impaled by totsuka to be sealed, this is the eight branches technique vs. susanoo - notice that susanoo cuts all of the heads off of the eight branches technique yet NONE of the snakes are sealed:

Spoiler

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Here is the first kill/sealing we saw by totsuka - Orochimaru's death. He was impaled but that's not what told me that an impalement was necessary, it was the manner of sealing:

Spoiler

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At first Oro was boasting about how susanoo's blade would do nothing against him yet it totally backfired, after the sword is in Oro for about five or ten seconds he suddenly fuses with the sword and is drawn into it and then finally put into the gourd. It seems totsuka's sealing isn't instant, the user must force the blade into a target and prevent them from escaping for a few seconds while the blade works its effect.

This is a huge flaw as it completely discredits the one-hit KO method of winning I see on so many Itachi vs. threads, it's hard to be in a position where you don't see the sword coming and harder to actually be totally impaled by it. Oro only died to carelessness.

Now here's Nagato's death, he is also impaled and there is a much longer waiting time for him to get sealed (which to me says that the more chakra is being absorbed the longer it takes to finish the seal as Nagato had more chakra than Oro).

Spoiler

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So, as you can see, Nagato was sealed by totsuka. This is completely plot no justu and I'm still irritated by Nagato's death in this manner which I'll talk about in a bonus section of the thread.





So all in all, while Itachi's susanoo is the strongest we've seen - it's not invincible. He has many flaws ranging from the techniques basic flaws to his eyes and the two legendary ninja tools within his susanoo. Before referring to Itachi's susanoo as invincible or a guaranteed win in a fight, remember that even he has weaknesses and should be looked at realistically - especially with his ultimate technique.

Hope you guys enjoyed the read, as I'll always say on my long threads - if you made it through it, have a cookie.





A BIT OF EXTRA READING:

This is going to have to do with totsuka, this isn't anything about flaws but showing you plot-no-jutsu in its purest form and the sealing process of the sword.


So first the plot no jutsu:

While it's over looked, basically Nagato didn't see the sword of totsuka coming through the smoke and was thus impaled. I have serious trouble believing that and feel kishi over looked something - the rinnegan can see chakra.

Spoiler

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In that picture the rinnegan can easily see chakra, while some jutsu like the hidden mist jutsu can prevent methods like dojutsu by seeing chakra due to fogging sight with ninjutsu in this case it was normal smoke, dojutsu can see through solid rock so I have trouble believing that Nagato couldn't see through that smoke. Assuming the rinnegan couldn't penetrate the smoke cloud, healthy Nagato had been shown to be very fast and I have trouble believe Akatsuki's most elite ninja couldn't dodge that attack or at least prevent impalement.

Now, for the limits of totsuka's sealing - I don't believe it could ever seal a tailed beast. Nagato's chakra was godlike yet nothing compared to a beast's and Oro was never said to have had large amounts of chakra. Oro was sealed in about five seconds or so yet Nagato had time to make a small speech leading me to believe he had about twenty seconds or so.

Assuming Nagato has four times as much chakra as Oro, which is within reason, it's safe to assume totsuka can only seal so fast which explains the lack of instant sealing. A tailed beast, even the one-tail, has nearly infinite chakra. Sealing a tailed beast, a lower one specifically, could take a minute yet sealing one of the upper three may take hundreds of times more than that due to the way beasts have their chakra assigned.

I feel it's likely that a tailed beast, even if impaled, would be able to quickly escape due to the sword being tiny in comparison to them and due to the fact that their immense strength would allow them to escape even a susanoo attempting to hold them down.

If you read this far, not only are you awesome but you get a brownie as well.

Hope you guys enjoyed this little bonus section. ^^


EDIT: This guy just posted, this is what I hate:

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Also figured I'd leave a short message saying that I noticed something - the illogical people arguing against my points with no proof all have sharingan avatar. I'll also give some people credit, they pointed out some flaws in my argument and while that hasn't been edited in yet I figured I'd mention it. The main reason it's not edited in at the moment is simply because I'm working on some school work and taking a five minute break here and there to hop on the base.

I agree. Susano'o indeed, is not invincible. However, some of your points can be further revised. Your points 1 and 4 are possible, yet not that possible at the same time.

1. Itachi's Susano'o doesn't seem to be easily gang-raped due to its Yata Mirror, which is supposedly superior to the normal Susano'o bones. Thereupon, it is a huge bonus that adds to the already-tough skeleton of Susano'o. I don't think, that any of the things the pictures have shown is possible to be done on Yata Mirror + Bones which are undoubtedly as strong as the average Susano'o. Now, it took quite a bit to break apart Susano'o, and hence, with the Yata Mirror, I believe it hard to break apart.

Well well well, in a normal match, I doubt Itachi's great intelligence and foresight would be unable to spot something coming up on him as a sneak attack. Sure, that worked on Madara, but that was a thousand versus one. I think Itachi would not get caught by this flaw that easily, it'll take someone as smart as Shikamaru to even fool Itachi, that being said, its nearly impossible.

4. Well, I believe once the sword has touched the person, they're dead. WHen I say dead, I don't mean sealed and literally dead, I mean more of he's done for. Why? Nagato and Orochimaru both did not move, and "willingly" got sealed. I'd say that the manner of sealing you have mentioned is a possible point, but I don't think so ~_~

 

[dave12891]

that was awesome man gud job