Itachi's susanoo is not invincible.

[naruto s06p beastmode]

cool

 

[Kurogane]

You can strike under the susanoo

 

[Bubblehead55]

agreed and also with Itachi his low chakra conserves

 

[9Bijuu]

You can strike under the susanoo

I mentioned that - it's one of the biggest flaws imo.

agreed and also with Itachi his low chakra conserves

Yea it's another huge issue but I didn't mention it as it seems to be understood by most plus it seemed like something even more people would pointlessly debate.

 

[HotShot]

Susanoo is chakra itself. Preta Path would rape it. xd

I agree with this guy :scorps:

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

For one, the attacks that cracked through susanoo were very high level. They came from Tsunade's enhanced strength, the strongest ninja alive and from Raikage A with the Tsuchikage making him lighter and then heavier with his aggravated rock technique to increase acceleration and then mass which means more force. And that was with an incomplete susanoo. A was able to break through susanoo's ribs when sasuke first used it. It's not easy to break through it. the reason that Gaara was able to pull Madara out of his susanoo with his sand was because he used the fine nature of the sand to weed through the holes of his incomplete susanoo and that again was with the Tsuchikage's help lightening the sand making it faster. The point of this rant is that susanoo can be broken through in its incomplete form from what we've seen, but only with very high level attacks. Also, the data book stated that the sealing process of the Totsuka sword only happens when it pierces something and the sealing jutsu is embedded in the sword itself. Who's to say that Itachi can't control how fast the sealing process takes? And the attack wouldn't be easy to dodge. Susanoo was stated by Danzo to have very high attack speed with its punches, so I'm sure it can stab and slash fast as well. The Yata mirror can block all attacks. It changes its nature in reaction to what it is blocking. It is also embedded with all forms of chakra. If it is hit by multiple chakra nature, all will be blocked, so even dust release will be blocked by this. I agree on the bit about the large dust attack tho, that will hit Itachi's susanoo. The mirror also blocks physical attacks, a picture somebody else posted clearly came from the manga and stated that it blocked taijutsu. Every jutsu does have a weakness, you just have to get around susanoo's strong points. What is the point of attacking head first into a shield that blocks everything? In a fight, you don't hit somebody in their guard, you get around it.

 

[9Bijuu]

For one, the attacks that cracked through susanoo were very high level. They came from Tsunade's enhanced strength, the strongest ninja alive and from Raikage A with the Tsuchikage making him lighter and then heavier with his aggravated rock technique to increase acceleration and then mass which means more force. And that was with an incomplete susanoo. A was able to break through susanoo's ribs when sasuke first used it. It's not easy to break through it. the reason that Gaara was able to pull Madara out of his susanoo with his sand was because he used the fine nature of the sand to weed through the holes of his incomplete susanoo and that again was with the Tsuchikage's help lightening the sand making it faster. The point of this rant is that susanoo can be broken through in its incomplete form from what we've seen, but only with very high level attacks. Also, the data book stated that the sealing process of the Totsuka sword only happens when it pierces something and the sealing jutsu is embedded in the sword itself. Who's to say that Itachi can't control how fast the sealing process takes? And the attack wouldn't be easy to dodge. Susanoo was stated by Danzo to have very high attack speed with its punches, so I'm sure it can stab and slash fast as well. The Yata mirror can block all attacks. It changes its nature in reaction to what it is blocking. It is also embedded with all forms of chakra. If it is hit by multiple chakra nature, all will be blocked, so even dust release will be blocked by this. I agree on the bit about the large dust attack tho, that will hit Itachi's susanoo. The mirror also blocks physical attacks, a picture somebody else posted clearly came from the manga and stated that it blocked taijutsu. Every jutsu does have a weakness, you just have to get around susanoo's strong points. What is the point of attacking head first into a shield that blocks everything? In a fight, you don't hit somebody in their guard, you get around it.

Bolded stuff is stuff I thought I made fairly clear. In regards to Totsuka, Itachi may be able to control the sealing speed but he hasn't shown himself to be able to do that. The moment the sword hits the sealing begins and at that point I have trouble thinking he could do anything to speed it up. I'd believe Itachi could seal as fast as he wanted to but if so I think he would sealed Oro the moment he got the chance instead of risking not getting it done instantly.

 

[Shin Zangetsu]

Extremely good point, I'm editing this in - finally someone who managed to prove me wrong on the mirror. Been waiting for some logic, +rep.

I don't know if that's a fair statement as you haven't yet responded to my first detailed post and while it's an ok response that I like he is speculating too. Even if that is correct it doesn't change the fact that Yata Mirror responds with changes that would counter the assault making it ineffective.

There's never been a situation where a full powered susanoo was even hit, who's to say it can't be broken?

On top of that, no form =/= not physical - if it weren't physical it couldn't impact physical things like stopping physical jutsu (earth release, taijutsu are the most immediate examples) and it would not be possible to cut a PHYSICAL snake's head off.

Eve n a fully powered susano'o can be broken given the right power. Doesn;t anyone here know about Yin-Yang oriented chakra or the fact that Inton forms will become tangible when provided with physical energy? I would have thought so. Purely spiritual form won't manifest fully unless given physical energy as well. It is a spiritual weapon. If the user has no energy left to give it, it will not manifest but when it is manifested it can interact with the physical world. That doesn't change the fact that it is a spiritual construct that cannot be destroyed fully by physical means.

Yea I pointed that stuff out - a shield can't be an all around defense since it only covers so much.

I agreed with that methinks. I wish you had answered what I hadn't agreed with though. Those were very valid points.

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

Bolded stuff is stuff I thought I made fairly clear. In regards to Totsuka, Itachi may be able to control the sealing speed but he hasn't shown himself to be able to do that. The moment the sword hits the sealing begins and at that point I have trouble thinking he could do anything to speed it up. I'd believe Itachi could seal as fast as he wanted to but if so I think he would sealed Oro the moment he got the chance instead of risking not getting it done instantly.

I'm just having issues with the sealing speed being dependent on the amount of chakra an individual has. Orochi had a very large chakra reserve. He could summon Manda, who is as large as Bunta and Naruto needed Kurama's chakra to do that. He is also able to use that dang snake shedding substitution technique umpteen times. Itachi said that that technique uses a lot a chakra when Sasuke used it against him. Perhaps there is a delay from when something is pierced and then sealed but I doubt it is dependent on chakra.

 

[Simplified]

right, because dust release would disintegrate something spiritual.. with no form whatsoever .. -_-


are you seriously linking madara's incomplete susanno that he has up , and comparing it to a complete one?

and no , databook says yata mirror reflects ANY attack

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Susanno changes EVERY one of its properties, allowing it to alter the ATTRIBUTES in accordance with the attributes of the attack <---- rendering it ineffective

I DO HOPE that you see the plural in that explanation, which shows susanno can defend against kekkegenkai also

Your entire thread good sir, is filled with incorrect points, flawed logic, and outright claims, You have failed to prove anything but the obvious..
It was stated in perfect english, that totsuka sword needs to pierce to person to seal them... Why you go on about that in one of your points? no idea

Yeah, this is a pretty good counter for your thread, although you do have a point..Susanoo isn't invincible. If anybody says that, they're extreme fanboys. I love Itachi but I'm sure it's not unbreakable.

 

[9Bijuu]

I'm just having issues with the sealing speed being dependent on the amount of chakra an individual has. Orochi had a very large chakra reserve. He could summon Manda, who is as large as Bunta and Naruto needed Kurama's chakra to do that. He is also able to use that dang snake shedding substitution technique umpteen times. Itachi said that that technique uses a lot a chakra when Sasuke used it against him. Perhaps there is a delay from when something is pierced and then sealed but I doubt it is dependent on chakra.

Keep in mind your Oro comparison to Naruto is when Naruto had used up all of his chakra in order to use the kyubbi's chakra which from my memory wasn't due to the amount but the intensity of it and Oro was ~five or six times older at that point. Also, Nagato who I used for the comparison, summoned many giant summons, used many Shinra tenseis including one that destroyed the greater majority of Konoha, used chibaku tensei, and used the path powers to an extreme extent. While my chakra theory could be very possibly incorrect I feel its correct based on the two sealings we've seen and the fact that the sealing automatically starts upon the sword making contact.

Yeah, this is a pretty good counter for your thread, although you do have a point..Susanoo isn't invincible. If anybody says that, they're extreme fanboys. I love Itachi but I'm sure it's not unbreakable.

Actually I feel that it's a bad counter. That source, which I read in full, has plot holes, contradicted the manga regularly, and seemed to just not be the best thing to use as evidence despite its officiality.

Regardless there have been many good counters using manga panels, all of which I took note of but still feel don't fully apply.

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

Actually I feel that it's a bad counter. That source, which I read in full, has plot holes, contradicted the manga regularly, and seemed to just not be the best thing to use as evidence despite its officiality.

Regardless there have been many good counters using manga panels, all of which I took note of but still feel don't fully apply.

We'll see on the chakra point. I agree that Nagato had much higher chakra levels than Orochi, but Orochi still had high levels. I think it has a delay for the sealing and Itachi can somewhat control, I mean it is still a jutsu. In this statement that I quoted, tell me how it contradicts the manga. I read the first few pages of the thread but not all of it so I'm not sure if you have stated this already.

 

[Shin Zangetsu]

Keep in mind your Oro comparison to Naruto is when Naruto had used up all of his chakra in order to use the kyubbi's chakra which from my memory wasn't due to the amount but the intensity of it and Oro was ~five or six times older at that point. Also, Nagato who I used for the comparison, summoned many giant summons, used many Shinra tenseis including one that destroyed the greater majority of Konoha, used chibaku tensei, and used the path powers to an extreme extent. While my chakra theory could be very possibly incorrect I feel its correct based on the two sealings we've seen and the fact that the sealing automatically starts upon the sword making contact.

Spoiler

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Itachi saw he was back to normal at least a little and gave him time.

Spoiler

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Read the page before this as well. How long do you think this exchange took from the point of the stab. Orochimaru couldn't even finish his sentence. Same goes for Nagato. All the other stuff aside although the sealing process itself is gradual, they cannot do anything to rescue themselves. I don't think Kabuto would have let it go down like that if he could avoid it.

 

[9Bijuu]

Spoiler

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Itachi saw he was back to normal at least a little and gave him time.

Spoiler

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Read the page before this as well. How long do you think this exchange took from the point of the stab. Orochimaru couldn't even finish his sentence. Same goes for Nagato. All the other stuff aside although the sealing process itself is gradual, they cannot do anything to rescue themselves. I don't think Kabuto would have let it go down like that if he could avoid it.

Pics are busted for me so I can't comment on those but Oro realized what the sword was and was gone, Nagato had time to make a small speech to Naruto and encourage him to be the good end to a trilogy of world-changing shinobi, the sealing speed seems a lot different between the two and that doesn't make much sense to me.

While I can't see the pics you linked me to and they're most likely not the one I'm about to mention, I feel that when Itachi said to Nagato, "Any last words before I seal you," I think he was just trying to make it clear to Nagato that he had time to say some things as sealing him would take longer - not because he can choose when it happens. If that were the case Nagato wouldn't have regained his senses until Itachi had already sealed him as opposed to the moment he was stabbed.

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

Spoiler

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Itachi saw he was back to normal at least a little and gave him time.

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Read the page before this as well. How long do you think this exchange took from the point of the stab. Orochimaru couldn't even finish his sentence. Same goes for Nagato. All the other stuff aside although the sealing process itself is gradual, they cannot do anything to rescue themselves. I don't think Kabuto would have let it go down like that if he could avoid it.

Can't see your pages but good point. It seemed that Orochi tried to move but couldn't, hence the shiver.

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[9Bijuu]

We'll see on the chakra point. I agree that Nagato had much higher chakra levels than Orochi, but Orochi still had high levels. I think it has a delay for the sealing and Itachi can somewhat control, I mean it is still a jutsu. In this statement that I quoted, tell me how it contradicts the manga. I read the first few pages of the thread but not all of it so I'm not sure if you have stated this already.

I seriously doubt Itachi has control over the sealing process. My reasoning is that the moment the sword hit Nagato, edo-tensei was released. He did ask him if he had any last words but I think that was to let Nagato know he had some time to speak, if he truly controlled sealing speed the sealing wouldn't start without him - he would've had to instantly seal away Nagato, it just doesn't add up.

Also as I've said countless times, spirit weapons shouldn't be able to affect anything physical. If that were 100% accurate a spirit sword wouldn't be able to cut a real snake's head off nor tab and seal real, physical beings and the yata mirror would most likely not be able to prevent earth release and taijutsu as they're purely physical. And even if we're to say yata blocks every last attack, there's still its flaw of not covering the whole of susanoo or its largest vulnerable spot which is the bottom of it.

While those pictures don't entirely, I'm talking about the entire databook as a whole. It may look good on that one section but a lot of it contradicts current manga facts and as we've seen Kishi does manage to go back on his prior words as he advances the manga (we saw in today's chapter that Oro had contact with Kabuto prior to having Kabuto sent to him as a spy from Sasori) so I'm using current and recent manga info for evidence.

Also thanks for the replies, I enjoy debating with people that don't just blindly fan boy me. ^^

 

[Shin Zangetsu]

Actually I feel that it's a bad counter. That source, which I read in full, has plot holes, contradicted the manga regularly, and seemed to just not be the best thing to use as evidence despite its officiality.

Regardless there have been many good counters using manga panels, all of which I took note of but still feel don't fully apply.

I also dislike constant mention of Databook in debate as manga gives more valid info. But Databook is "Word of God" so it cannot be ignored casually. Also the only time a Databook entry or Word of God such as an interview can actually ever be questioned or denied is when there is a manga panel sufficiently contradicting that entry.

Yata Mirror has a databook entry. Before you dismiss that entry, you have ask yourself whether or not you can provide solid evidence as to why it's not so despite the fact that it's mentioned by author.

Until you can then the entry is correct and to be taken as fact.

You can't base all entries in the DB on a couple that were not exactly accurately depicted in the manga.

9bijuu, I like your threads and your debate style as I've found you to be one the better posters on this forum but here you're not debating well if I'm tbh. You're ignoring responses and dismissing evidence without really providing any evidence on your own. What you must realize is that just about EVERYONE in this thread (except a couple of Itachi-tards) agrees with your point that Itachi's Susano'o is certainly not invincible but your OP had major flaws in it.

 

[ionlywanttopostinoneforum]

My suggestion, and just a suggestion.


Someone should make a scenario in which they believe would break through, or effectively get around susano to land an attack. While someone who supports the invincibility of the susano tries to prove it so against another persons theory.

Basically someone should chose, and point out brief, but meaningfully efficient exploits of susano. Then have someone else chose, and briefly point out the inefficiencies. Afterwards everyone else can simply chose to agree, or disagree.

-That aside I don't actually care to see an entire RP battle take place, and I also agree with the major holes in susano's defenses(includes a full susano).

-While on the other hand the full capabilities of a full susano have yet to be shown, at this point we can only guess, and speculate on theories.

Hopefully this will cause a proper debate, and give the people recently looking into this thread a chance to catch up without being side tracked by brute idiotic ideals against reasonable logic.

Also if anyone is Pro susano being COMPLETELY invincible please do not be all making up stuff that makes absolutely no sense like "Susano can fly so it doesn't need protection underneath"(lol), or "It hasn't been done so prove it. Show pictures!". That level of ignorance has no real place in a well grafted, and wonderfully composed forum.

 

[9Bijuu]

I also dislike constant mention of Databook in debate as manga gives more valid info. But Databook is "Word of God" so it cannot be ignored casually. Also the only time a Databook entry or Word of God such as an interview can actually ever be questioned or denied is when there is a manga panel sufficiently contradicting that entry.

Yata Mirror has a databook entry. Before you dismiss that entry, you have ask yourself whether or not you can provide solid evidence as to why it's not so despite the fact that it's mentioned by author.

Until you can then the entry is correct and to be taken as fact.

You can't base all entries in the DB on a couple that were not exactly accurately depicted in the manga.

9bijuu, I like your threads and your debate style as I've found you to be one the better posters on this forum but here you're not debating well if I'm tbh. You're ignoring responses and dismissing evidence without really providing any evidence on your own. What you must realize is that just about EVERYONE in this thread (except a couple of Itachi-tards) agrees with your point that Itachi's Susano'o is certainly not invincible but your OP had major flaws in it.

Thanks for the compliment but yea, it's really hard to debate under these circumstances. People are using evidence I don't support and it's really hard to keep up debates when I don't have much evidence as we've only seen so much of Itachi's susanoo or its tools. This thread carries a lot of speculation, hence the flaws in my OP, but I still feel it can accomplish my main goal which was simply say that Itachi's susanoo is NOT invincible or flawless.

Tough to argue against databook in general as it's raw info instead of pictures to draw information from.

(I was seriously hoping people wouldn't argue with me too much and would get the main point of the thread, I'm bad at arguing against those who nit pick details. :/)

 

[Q of the Sharingan]

I seriously doubt Itachi has control over the sealing process. My reasoning is that the moment the sword hit Nagato, edo-tensei was released. He did ask him if he had any last words but I think that was to let Nagato know he had some time to speak, if he truly controlled sealing speed the sealing wouldn't start without him - he would've had to instantly seal away Nagato, it just doesn't add up.

Also as I've said countless times, spirit weapons shouldn't be able to affect anything physical. If that were 100% accurate a spirit sword wouldn't be able to cut a real snake's head off nor tab and seal real, physical beings and the yata mirror would most likely not be able to prevent earth release and taijutsu as they're purely physical. And even if we're to say yata blocks every last attack, there's still its flaw of not covering the whole of susanoo or its largest vulnerable spot which is the bottom of it.

While those pictures don't entirely, I'm talking about the entire databook as a whole. It may look good on that one section but a lot of it contradicts current manga facts and as we've seen Kishi does manage to go back on his prior words as he advances the manga (we saw in today's chapter that Oro had contact with Kabuto prior to having Kabuto sent to him as a spy from Sasori) so I'm using current and recent manga info for evidence.

Also thanks for the replies, I enjoy debating with people that don't just blindly fan boy me. ^^

It is spiritual, that's it. In countless tales of fantasy and myth, spiritual things are able to effect physical objects, that's what makes them so special. They'd be useless if you couldn't use them in the real would. That's not to say they can't be destroyed. Yata mirror is one object that can't be destroyed due to its block everything nature. The totsuka swords blade is technically made out of sake. Obviously spirit sake can cut through things if focused into a blade, you really can't try to explain things like that. I bet that enough force can actually "break" the blade of the sword but it would just repair itself by adding more sake. Also everybody keeps secrets. the way of the ninja is that of deception. So people lie, and in that way the manga doesn't contradict itself. Now there are points where things in the very beginning of the manga seem iffy compared to now, but hey this thing has been going of for years and mistakes are made. i like this debate as well by the way lol