Madara Uchiha and Hashirama Senju Overrated

[Tazzilla88]

To preface this. Don't comment if you don't read. I know it's long but just bare with me. And please if you think I'm wrong intelligently form a counter argument. And I will try to respond accordingly if I am not convinced. So people are overrating Madara Uchiha and Hashirama Senju. It's beginning to become irritating. So let me start with this. We cannot take Madara's words. Why? Because on the topic of Hashirama I think it is very apparent that Madara is a Hashirama fan boy. On Madara himself. He is shown using mental warfare to dishearten the kages and thus make them fight worse

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It would make sense that keeping with his character he would degrade the current kage and act arrogant to try to make them feel hopeless.
We also know that Edo-Madara is fighting with the intent to kill rather than just toying around because he tried to kill Tsunade twice.

Edo Madara has:
Susanoo- countered by Tsunade. Some people believe she need's A's help to break Susanoo but because she broke the Susanoo sword with one punch we know she is capable of breaking it herself
Fire Release- Countered by one of Mei's Water Releases (Mei still has another 4 releases (Earth, Boil, Fire & Lava) and if they are equally impressive as Water then Madara is elementally outclassed
Mokuton- Actually this could be countered by many things. Tsuchikage's dust element Jinton would destroy Wood release. Mei's lava release would set it on fire and destroy it. As we know that Sand can cut (I'm not sure if the gold sand is mixed in too) but Gaara should be able to cut through it. Mei's water techs should be able to break through it and suppress the pollen. And unless Mokuton is harder than Susanoo and stone or it's the flowering jutsu Tsunade can punch/kick through it. I could go on
Meteors- Countered by Tsuchikage's light body technique. I think Tsunade may be able to break them with a strike.But that's purely opinion
Yasaka Magatama- Byakougou, Tsuchikage's Stone, Gaara's Sand, A's Speed,
Preta Path- A's Strength or Tsunade's Strength counters, Being Buried in Sand even if he absorbs the chakra still leaves him crushed by sand unable to move. Absorbing chakra from water doesn't mean absorbing water by that point the water can still be coming with enough speed and pressure to cut. Stone's coming at you even you absorb any chakra are still stones capable of crushing. Chakra infused lava minus the chakra is still lava that will stick to you.
Tsukyomi- Anyone who has good chakra control can stop the flow of chakra to their brain (i.e. Tsunade) and awaken any members of the team caught. (In addition Tsunade quickly and nearly effortlessly undid the damage done by Itachi's Tsukyomi on Kakashi and Sasuke thus should any kage fall victim she can undue the damage done and she should fall victim I see no reason she can't fix herself)
Amaterasu- Can we keep the raikage away from this please :flaw: But seriously should Gaara's sand Intercept Amaterasu then the Sand will burn but no one will. Essentially Gaara can shield anyone. And we know he's fast with his sand as per the whole Raikage and Sasuke Guillotine drop and Enton incident.
Clones-Remains to be seen.

EMS Madara
Fire Release
Susanoo
Amaterasu
Tsukuyomi
Kyuubi Summoning (Which became a problem after Kurama is sealed. So he can no longer do this)

Hashirama
He is basically a Tsunade with Mokuton. (Tsunade has a 3 .5 in Genjutsu)
He has good Genjutsu
He has good Strength (like Tsunade's natural strength i.e. her Gamabunta sword feat but not her augmented strength)
He has excellent self healing techs
He has mokuton and bijuu suppressing. (We've only ever seen three of these techs from any source)
So we've seen a total of 5 techniques from the 1st Hokage and we're ready to say that Kishimoto is wrong in the Databook and that Hashirama is stronger than Hiruzen. All of a sudden Hashirama can beat anyone. 6 Techs thats all. Only 4 of those have been impressive but his hype from Madara in combination with the way Madara speaks poorly of the current kage has everyone believing Madara was the most powerful hokage ever.

 

[Shisui Namikaze]

No. Itachi uchiha and hiruzen sarutobi are overrated.

 

[Tazzilla88]

No. Itachi uchiha and hiruzen sarutobi are overrated.

Though this thread isn't about who you think is more overrated I disagree. Itachi has become a Mary Sue to the point where he pulls OP jutsus out of his arse.
And Kishi just flat out said in the databooks that Hiruzen was the strongest hokage ever. You can't argue with the author.

 

[Yondaime Namikaze]

though this thread isn't about who you think is more overrated i disagree. Itachi has become a mary sue to the point where he pulls op jutsus out of his arse.
And kishi just flat out said in the databooks that hiruzen was the strongest hokage ever. You can't argue with the author.

where and when was this

 

[Tazzilla88]

where and when was this

I'm assuming you're referring to the Hiruzen part so
First Naruto DataBook Page 119: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history"

First Naruto DataBook Page 265:"The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi"

 

[Daniel Uchiha]

so this means that sasuke is stronger than any hokage?

 

[maiavarepz]

OMG, you are very naruto-know it all (no offence intended) good analysis on madara, it is soo cool lovin the constant shutdowning Rep+

 

[Daniel Uchiha]

I'm assuming you're referring to the Hiruzen part so
First Naruto DataBook Page 119: "He is such a genius ninja that he was even called the 'Professor', and he still garners everyone's respect as the strongest Hokage in history"

First Naruto DataBook Page 265:"The Third is called the strongest, even among the past Hokage, and he is even admired as the 'God of Shinobi"

But he was killed by orochimaru who was later killed by sasuke so therefore sasuke is stronger than any ninja ever born besides the SO6P himself. according to you.

 

[Tazzilla88]

But he was killed by orochimaru who was later killed by sasuke so therefore sasuke is stronger than any ninja ever born besides the SO6P himself. according to you.

Your logic is flawed for to reasons
Firstly it assumes Power is linear. For instance Part 1 Naruto beat Neji but Part 1 Naruto would have lost to Kidomaru
Secondly: It assumes both parties lost in their primes. Hiruzen lost at 69 out of old age. Orochimaru was extremely sick when he lost and iirc Sasuke didn't believe he would've beaten a healthy Orochimaru.
So if you're not going to actually discuss the subject of Madara and Hashirama here please out of this thread with your logical fallacies.

 

[Daniel Uchiha]

Your logic is flawed for to reasons
Firstly it assumes Power is linear. For instance Part 1 Naruto beat Neji but Part 1 Naruto would have lost to Kidomaru
Secondly: It assumes both parties lost in their primes. Hiruzen lost at 69 out of old age. Orochimaru was extremely sick when he lost and iirc Sasuke didn't believe he would've beaten a healthy Orochimaru.
So if you're not going to actually discuss the subject of Madara and Hashirama here please out of this thread with your logical fallacies.

Now you're making assumptions. We will never know if part 1 naruto would have lost or not against kidomaru because kishi never let them fight. And to explain about orochimaru and sasuke, it doesnt matter if orochimaru was sick or not. he was still beaten. There is again no way of proving that sasuke couldn't have won against him if he was healthy. Now about madara overrating hashirama. Madara has reason to talk highly of him. Hashirama, as I'm sure a smart person as yourself would know, killed madara who even had kurama under his control. But I have another example of you again making assumptions with absolutely NO grounds to base them on. You can't possibly prove that hiruzen could have beaten hashirama because it NEVER HAPPENED. Another thing is that kabuto stated that NO ninja of the current era could match his prowess in battle. like you said. You cant argue with the author.:flaw:

 

[gutSy Sage]

i'm pretty sure if you have the rinnegan you can't be overrated...

 

[Daniel Uchiha]

i'm pretty sure if you have the rinnegan you can't be overrated...

Its amazing how this guy is trying to make us all sound like we dont know anything about the series even though he's a newbie...

 

[gutSy Sage]

Its amazing how this guy is trying to make us all sound like we dont know anything about the series even though he's a newbie...

it's funny how you are over thinking a cartoon

 

[Daniel Uchiha]

it's funny how you are over thinking a cartoon

I know right?

 

[Nidaime Pupil]

EVERYONE is overrated apparently. Enough of the ****ing threads.

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Hashirama and Madara were the most powerful of their clans and Madara flat out stated that Hashirama was stronger than him hence why he beat him. Your evidence for why Madara said this is that he is a Hashirama fanboy?!?!?! Dude wtf come back to reality you've been on the base too long I think.

 

[Daniel Uchiha]

i'm not even going to argue with him anymore. I've gotten WAY too into this convo than I intended.

 

[irukaumino26]

S06P = SENJU + UCHIHA

Hashirama was the greatest Senju
Madara was the greatest Uchiha

Those were basically the Top 2 clans in the history of Naruto!
You just gotta respect Hashirama and Madara.

I know the whole theme of this manga is that "the new generation will surpass the old generation", but I feel Hashirama and Madara are excluded from that!

 

[Tazzilla88]

Now you're making assumptions. We will never know if part 1 naruto would have lost or not against kidomaru because kishi never let them fight. And to explain about orochimaru and sasuke, it doesnt matter if orochimaru was sick or not. he was still beaten. There is again no way of proving that sasuke couldn't have won against him if he was healthy. Now about madara overrating hashirama. Madara has reason to talk highly of him. Hashirama, as I'm sure a smart person as yourself would know, killed madara who even had kurama under his control. But I have another example of you again making assumptions with absolutely NO grounds to base them on. You can't possibly prove that hiruzen could have beaten hashirama because it NEVER HAPPENED. Another thing is that kabuto stated that NO ninja of the current era could match his prowess in battle. like you said. You cant argue with the author.:flaw:

Are you serious. What could part 1 Naruto do to Kidoumaru. Go back and read his fight vs Neji. He would've been screwed. So if the condition you were beaten in doesn't matter. That means if you fought a man on his death bed and won you could have beat him when he was healthy? Just because you beat him? Hashirama is Tsunade plus Mokuton. You don't think so? Name one non-mokuton ability that he has that she doesn't. Oh she does have a summon too. I can't prove Hiruzen was going to beat Hashirama .. you're right, however, Kishimoto himself has said that the third was the strongest hokage. Now if you got some proof that Kishi has changed his mind I'm open to it. It's funny how you're arguing with the words the author said. You're right Hiruzen is dead. So he couldn't match Hashirama now. And even if he was alive he couldn't fight Prime Madara or Prime Hashirama and he'd be 72. Yeah you thought you were looking smart. And just because I'm new to these forums it doesn't mean you can outsmart me in terms of Naruto knoweldge. I've been keeping up with the series before my teens and reading the manga since my early teens. So show me an actual flaw and stop attacking straw men. Thanks :izuna:

 

[Tazzilla88]

EVERYONE is overrated apparently. Enough of the ****ing threads.

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Hashirama and Madara were the most powerful of their clans and Madara flat out stated that Hashirama was stronger than him hence why he beat him. Your evidence for why Madara said this is that he is a Hashirama fanboy?!?!?! Dude wtf come back to reality you've been on the base too long I think.

If Madara has some connection to Hashirama then he is automatically biased. So let's see if Madara is a bit to connected to Hashirama.

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If her techniques are worthless why are the other kage still alive?
And if her techniques are worthless why would he other kage be screwed if she died

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Obviously he was lying here when he said her techniques are worthless.

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Hey wait, Tsunade can heal without using seals. And if the Kages are still holding back some (and Tsunade showed they are) then he has no idea if they're techniques are on the same level

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So Tsunade proved that she could heal without handseals. And she proved she wasn't a weak woman. But notice how he said a weak people are ugly and weak Senju's are uglier. Since the only person he considers not weak is Hashirama that would mean he found Hashirama attractive.

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His susanoo just got broken by Tsunade's kick. He is still speaking to Hashirama wishing he could bring him back to life to teach this generation about strength. What strength has Madara shown exactly. Like I pointed out earlier his every move has been countered. With two hits Tsunade has broken Susanoo.

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No one else finds this "how perfect"... fanboyish? I am the only one? And once again if her Healing techniques are worthless why does he now believe the other kages are now done too?

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When Tsunade asked if they forced him into having to use a clone. He didn't say no. Rather he picked up a new bluff.

We all know how he was saying how weak their technique is and how their techniques aren't on Hashirama's level.

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Why was he thinking he couldn't allow himself to get sucked into a technique of that level

Before he adopted the strategy of trying to undermind their confidence he noted they were an adequate challenge

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And here he calls there offence impressive

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Again he is impressed

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And here you can see Madara's Susanoo was melting because of the Mizukage's lava

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And here Madara is shocked by Raikage punching through a melting Susanoo.

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And this all seems to be a big pretending game with him to degrade their morale because we was so impressed before. And he even admitted he's trying to lower their morale.

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[The L]

Hashirama no...Madara yes