[Theory] The Time Between Jinchurikis

[NarutoKage2]

First of all, this is NOT a Tobi identity thread. Its a theory that i've made and was inspired by some points i saw raised in said threads. I know this might be a little long, so no need to remind me of that,lol.



I was pondering over one question which i noticed many people seemed to ask in the Tobi is...threads, a point which, many felt ruled out all possibilities of Tobi being anyone other than Madara and The Elder Son. In this page:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The Kyuubi recognizes Tobi. So the question, then was asked : how was it possible for Kurama to recognize anyone other than Madara as he was sealed first in Mito and then Kushnina Uzumaki..? This is where my theory starts.

Spoiler

Whenever a jinchuriki dies or approaches death, it becomes necessary to re-seal it into another host body, who then becomes the new jinchuriki. But what happens while this process is being performed? To elaborate, lets divide this process into steps:

Spoiler

Step 1: Tailed beast is extracted from the previous jinchuriki. Obviously, otherwise it can't get into a new host body
Step 2: Tailed beast is taken out of its former jinchuriki, in the open
Step 3: Tailed best is contained, then re-sealed into the new jinchuriki.

How do you perform Step 2, and avert bloodshed...? The Kyuubi, for example was a mass of hatred until very recently,this was also the case with the 8 tails before it met Bee. I don't see any possibility of these Bijju's, who resented the jinchurikis and the people around them of quietly co operating till such time that they could be re-sealed into the new jinchuriki. This time frame would have cause problems to the villages, and its suggested that the Hidden Cloud might have faced such problems here:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

There were many victims caused by the 8 tails rampage between successive sealing into new jinchurikis. Its hard to imagine the 9 tails being any different when out in the open or Konoha having any luck in restraining it without some special precaution. Just what was this precaution, that allowed the transition for the removal of the Kyuubi, out of Mito, and then into Kushnina?

What did Konoha have at their disposal to keep the 9 tails quiet, till it was sealed into Kushnina....?

How could they keep it under control during that time?

Here are 2 pages of the manga:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Tobi says only our eye techs are capable of controlling the 9 tails, and:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

We're told that the Mangekyuo Sharingan is capable of controlling the kyuubi.

Spoiler

Now, before the Kyuubi attack, the Uchiha were part and parcel of Konoha, and at least 2 of them were known to have been associated with Danzo(Kagami, Shisui) and very likely the anbu too. The Anbu was used when Kushina was giving birth to Naruto, so it won't be a stretch to say that they were also used prior to this in matters involving the 9 tails, like say in restraining the Kyuubi until it could be sealed into its new jinchuriki. And this might have been how the Kyuubi knew of Tobi, i.e you can't rule out other Tobi id's from the fact that Kurama knew the masked man alone.Because its possible an Uchiha from that time(take your pick, tho fyi genjutsu mastery would be needed ) was used to assist in Step 2 by putting the 9 tails under genjutsu to sedate it till it could be sealed into the new jinchuriki. Just saying.

Also note, the Kyuubi recognized Minato as the 4th Hokage, even though it was first sealed inside Mito, then Kushina and finally Naruto. But we the reader know that in between Kushina and Naruto something happened to let the Kyuubi recognize people other than those into whom it was directly sealed. I know there was no major attack of Kurama before this, but its still possible it might have known others whilst it was being sealed into Kushina during Step 2. Hope this made sense.

 

[Lysander]

Nice ideas

 

[stinkey]

sry man couldnt unerstand what u are trying to say

 

[izinagi54]

sry man couldnt unerstand what u are trying to say

he saying maybe tobi was a former jin

 

[NarutoKage2]

sry man couldnt unerstand what u are trying to say

he saying maybe tobi was a former jin

Lol no i'm saying that when you make a new jinchuriki, e.g Kushina from an old one, like Mito, then the Kyuubi is let loose for some time, . And you need something to control it during that time. Otherwise the Kyuubi would go on a rampage whenever it leaves its last jinchuriki, same with all the other tailed beasts

 

[Aze]

This need Rep...I guess , it's the first time I understand something like that now...

That could also Imply , that Tobi or someone else with a mask , Originated from Konoha..and was used to restraint Kurama during host swap proccess.

Some one in the shadows , knowing the highups and having an authority of somekind.

 

[Qcks]

Ehh.... I don't think the evidence suggests what the OP is suggesting it does.
If Tobi was a former Jinchuuriki, there should be some other evidence beyond a vague recognition on the part of the Kyuubi.

The silver and gold brothers disturbed Naruto's chakra, to the point of causing him pain.
If tobi was jinchuuriki, there should be similar issues with the replacement jin.
Since the only bijuu mentioned was the nine tails, that implies that tobi would be a former jin for the kyuubi, but there's been no signs of chakra disruption in that manner, so.... no.

 

[NarutoKage2]

This need Rep...I guess , it's the first time I understand something like that now...

That could also Imply , that Tobi or someone else with a mask , Originated from Konoha..and was used to restraint Kurama during host swap proccess.

Some one in the shadows , knowing the highups and having an authority of somekind.

Thank You!!! Plus reps , i thought no one would get what i'm saying lol.

Exactly, when a new jinchuriki is used, then the tailed beast first has to leave the old one. At that point it would go on a rampage, unless its restrained.

 

[saltal]

Lol no i'm saying that when you make a new jinchuriki, e.g Kushina from an old one, like Mito, then the Kyuubi is let loose for some time, . And you need something to control it during that time. Otherwise the Kyuubi would go on a rampage whenever it leaves its last jinchuriki, same with all the other tailed beasts

Not true. You may want to reread the episode where Chiyo explains this to Naruto and Sakura. You need a special jutsu to balance the seal and the beast. The Akatsuki also used such a method. The chakra was transferred gradually. I am guessing that the soul of the beast was transferred after all chakra was taken and thus had no power to resist (and that would probably be the point when the Jinchuuriki died). The beast was thus extracted in such a way that it was never freed.

 

[NarutoKage2]

Ehh.... I don't think the evidence suggests what the OP is suggesting it does.
If Tobi was a former Jinchuuriki, there should be some other evidence beyond a vague recognition on the part of the Kyuubi.

The silver and gold brothers disturbed Naruto's chakra, to the point of causing him pain.
If tobi was jinchuuriki, there should be similar issues with the replacement jin.
Since the only bijuu mentioned was the nine tails, that implies that tobi would be a former jin for the kyuubi, but there's been no signs of chakra disruption in that manner, so.... no.

I NEVER SAID TOBI WAS A JINCHURIKI!!

Damn i feel like ripping my hair out!!

Mito was the jinchuriki of the 9 tails, yes?

Then the 9 tails was sealed into Kushina.

But BEFORE it was sealed into the new jinchuriki(Kushina) the Kyuubi had to leave the old one(Mito)'s body. When it did that, it would go on a rampage unless it were sedated till it could be sealed into Kushina...Get it?

Not true. You may want to reread the episode where Chiyo explains this to Naruto and Sakura. You need a special jutsu to balance the seal and the beast. The Akatsuki also used such a method. The chakra was transferred gradually. I am guessing that the soul of the beast was transferred after all chakra was taken and thus had no power to resist (and that would probably be the point when the Jinchuuriki died). The beast was thus extracted in such a way that it was never freed.

Which hidden village had access to the Gedo Mazo? Because from what i know, that statue is the only thing that can gradually transfer the chakra like that. And this is the manga section, not the anime.

 

[Qcks]

But BEFORE it was sealed into the new jinchuriki(Kushina) the Kyuubi had to leave the old one(Mito)'s body. When it did that, it would go on a rampage unless it were sedated till it could be sealed into Kushina...Get it?

yes. I caught that. there's a bit of a delay between saying something and replies. I apologize for that. You were kind of unclear in your original post.

That said, i think you're making a mistake in assuming that the Bijuu needs to be completely free of a host before being resealed.

It could simply be a transfer to a new host that kills the old Jinchuuriki. Not a gradual transfer but a transfer non the less.

It was never shown that Mito unsealed Kurama before Kurama being sealed in Kushina. If that's the case, Mito may have simply sealed Kurama into Kushina when Mito was getting ready to die, thus assuring that Mito died and the Kyuubi was safely sealed in a new host.

Short of that, We know Kurama can be summoned. Madara tries to summon Kurama in the war, but it fails because kurama is sealed in naruto.

If the Jinchuuriki releases the Bijuu far from the village and is then summoned to where ever it can be easily restrained and resealed, sedating the kyuubi is kind of a non-issue.

 

[Baka Sennin]

that's quite plausible. it makes sense to keep the kyuubi quiet with dojutsu while it is being changed from mito to kushina.

that opens up some new possibilities for tobi, only izuna has been crossed off so far (last chapter, unless izuna escaped madara's notice and survived). i think this theory favours kagami more than shisui, due to the time frame. shisui was around kushina's age at most i guess, but probably younger. i doubt he had ms before becoming a teenager, even though itachi did.

 

[Kirin Rei]

This makes a hell of a lot sense.
Besides, you might want to add the fact that Tobi seemed to know when a jinchuuriki's seal was supposed to be at it's weakest; childbirth.

That is not a kind of information that is freely given out, which indicates that he might have had an affiliation with Mito, somehow.
I'm still not sure if Mito gave birth before or after becoming a jinchuuriki, but seeing that people know that a seal is weakened during childbirth and she logically has to be the first ever female jinchuuriki to give birth, I find it highly plausible that said information was gained due to Mito having similar problems during her delivery.

Anyways, but I'd like to remind you that the extraction and resealing process of a bijuu doesn't necessarily have to be that messy. Although it took a hell of a long time, Akatsuki seemed pretty capable of extracting and resealing the bijuu into Gedo Mazo without creating much of a fuss. Plus, Konoha nin have a hell of a lot more knowledge than Kumo nin regarding sealing techniques thanks to Mito and her Uzumaki heritage. :shrug:

I don't know... There doesn't necessarily have to be a bijuu on rampage for a Sharingan wielder to be involved in the host changing process, a seemingly trustworthy Uchiha could be there just as a precaution.
But there are a couple of facts that negate this too...

First of all; Madara's (and later on the whole Uchiha clans') main argument was that the Uchiha weren't allowed to join in such important events, they weren't trusted.
Second of all; it's stated that only MS wielders can control a bijuu and there is a pretty short list of the known people who have awakened their MS's.
Madara, Izuna, Shisui, Itachi and Sasuke are supposedly the only ones in history to achieve said power, I'm disregarding Tobi (possibly) and Kakashi. There might have been an Uchiha lurking in the shadows and helping out Konoha just like how Danzo's Root division is, but that would be purely speculating.

Anyways, I like the sound of it, but unfortunately with the information we have at hand, it can't go any further than being just a theory. <3

 

[OneMellowGuy]

Just to make sure,
Your saying that possibly Konoha used an high ranking Uchiha to control the nine tails between switching host and that tobi could be that very same person

 

[-The Agent-]

I admit this is a nice theory, but I do disagree with it though. I think at any given opportunity that Tobi has to control Kurama he would have taken it and used it to destroy the village immediately.

As for Kurama recognizing Tobi, I see it like this. He can sense negative emotions, and each person is different. While being sealed he can also see what his host sees. He said to Naruto "I've seen everything you've done up until now" or something to that extent. So maybe he recognized Tobi from what he saw in either either of his previous hosts.

 

[Ryuu..]

Well I have to admit, this is nice. +rep.

 

[niblack89]

The leaf would never trust a Uchiha with the power of Kurama. Since Kurama never broke free from its host except for Kushina. There must be a sealing method that transfers from host to host. Only village elders knew of Kurama's existence in the leaf. If a Uchiha was an elder than they wouldn't need to rebel.

 

[Suigetsu13]

First of all, this is NOT a Tobi identity thread. Its a theory that i've made and was inspired by some points i saw raised in said threads. I know this might be a little long, so no need to remind me of that,lol.



I was pondering over one question which i noticed many people seemed to ask in the Tobi is...threads, a point which, many felt ruled out all possibilities of Tobi being anyone other than Madara and The Elder Son. In this page:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

The Kyuubi recognizes Tobi. So the question, then was asked : how was it possible for Kurama to recognize anyone other than Madara as he was sealed first in Mito and then Kushnina Uzumaki..? This is where my theory starts.

Spoiler

Whenever a jinchuriki dies or approaches death, it becomes necessary to re-seal it into another host body, who then becomes the new jinchuriki. But what happens while this process is being performed? To elaborate, lets divide this process into steps:

Spoiler

Step 1: Tailed beast is extracted from the previous jinchuriki. Obviously, otherwise it can't get into a new host body
Step 2: Tailed beast is taken out of its former jinchuriki, in the open
Step 3: Tailed best is contained, then re-sealed into the new jinchuriki.

How do you perform Step 2, and avert bloodshed...? The Kyuubi, for example was a mass of hatred until very recently,this was also the case with the 8 tails before it met Bee. I don't see any possibility of these Bijju's, who resented the jinchurikis and the people around them of quietly co operating till such time that they could be re-sealed into the new jinchuriki. This time frame would have cause problems to the villages, and its suggested that the Hidden Cloud might have faced such problems here:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Spoiler

There were many victims caused by the 8 tails rampage between successive sealing into new jinchurikis. Its hard to imagine the 9 tails being any different when out in the open or Konoha having any luck in restraining it without some special precaution. Just what was this precaution, that allowed the transition for the removal of the Kyuubi, out of Mito, and then into Kushnina?

What did Konoha have at their disposal to keep the 9 tails quiet, till it was sealed into Kushnina....?

How could they keep it under control during that time?

Here are 2 pages of the manga:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

Tobi says only our eye techs are capable of controlling the 9 tails, and:

Spoiler

You must be registered for see images

We're told that the Mangekyuo Sharingan is capable of controlling the kyuubi.

Spoiler

Now, before the Kyuubi attack, the Uchiha were part and parcel of Konoha, and at least 2 of them were known to have been associated with Danzo(Kagami, Shisui) and very likely the anbu too. The Anbu was used when Kushina was giving birth to Naruto, so it won't be a stretch to say that they were also used prior to this in matters involving the 9 tails, like say in restraining the Kyuubi until it could be sealed into its new jinchuriki. And this might have been how the Kyuubi knew of Tobi, i.e you can't rule out other Tobi id's from the fact that Kurama knew the masked man alone.Because its possible an Uchiha from that time(take your pick, tho fyi genjutsu mastery would be needed ) was used to assist in Step 2 by putting the 9 tails under genjutsu to sedate it till it could be sealed into the new jinchuriki. Just saying.

Also note, the Kyuubi recognized Minato as the 4th Hokage, even though it was first sealed inside Mito, then Kushina and finally Naruto. But we the reader know that in between Kushina and Naruto something happened to let the Kyuubi recognize people other than those into whom it was directly sealed. I know there was no major attack of Kurama before this, but its still possible it might have known others whilst it was being sealed into Kushina during Step 2. Hope this made sense.

The only problem I have with this is that the only master and highly skilled at genjutau who WAS an Uchiha is Shisui. Js but its a highly unlikely possibility.

 

[Bigfoot34501]

I like the theory, and I repped you because you put a solid effort into it, but I disagree. According to your theory, Konoha would need an MS user to assist them in controlling the Kyuubi to prevent him from rampaging. As Kirin Rei pointed out, there are only 6 known MS users in Naruto atm (considering the fact that Obito was potentially an MS user)

With that fact in mind, when the Kyuubi attacked 16 years ago, it would have only known about Madara and MAYBE Izuna. We don't know about any MS users between Madara and Shisui, so unless Kishi has been hiding another MS user on us, it cannot be an Uchiha that helped control the Kyuubi when he was sealed into Kushina

 

[NarutoKage2]

yes. I caught that. there's a bit of a delay between saying something and replies. I apologize for that. You were kind of unclear in your original post.

That said, i think you're making a mistake in assuming that the Bijuu needs to be completely free of a host before being resealed.

It could simply be a transfer to a new host that kills the old Jinchuuriki. Not a gradual transfer but a transfer non the less.

It was never shown that Mito unsealed Kurama before Kurama being sealed in Kushina. If that's the case, Mito may have simply sealed Kurama into Kushina when Mito was getting ready to die, thus assuring that Mito died and the Kyuubi was safely sealed in a new host.

Short of that, We know Kurama can be summoned. Madara tries to summon Kurama in the war, but it fails because kurama is sealed in naruto.

If the Jinchuuriki releases the Bijuu far from the village and is then summoned to where ever it can be easily restrained and resealed, sedating the kyuubi is kind of a non-issue.

Releasing a bijuu from their body is what kills a jinchurki. This is unequivocally stated in the manga, it does'nt matter whether the bijuu finds a new host body or not. Kushina survived for a while because she was an uzumaki, but her death was inevitable the instant the Kyuubi left her body.

And yes. it was never shown, that's why this is just a theory. However, if the Kyuubi could be instantly sealed from one jinchuriki to the next w/o leaving the original host body then what jutsu would do that? That has to be one helluva jutsu that manages to do something that the rinnegan's Gedo Mazo(which was basically a weapon of the SO6P) took 3 days to perform. Even then it only sealed the bijuu into the statue, not another human.

that's quite plausible. it makes sense to keep the kyuubi quiet with dojutsu while it is being changed from mito to kushina.

that opens up some new possibilities for tobi, only izuna has been crossed off so far (last chapter, unless izuna escaped madara's notice and survived). i think this theory favours kagami more than shisui, due to the time frame. shisui was around kushina's age at most i guess, but probably younger. i doubt he had ms before becoming a teenager, even though itachi did.

Thanks, and i'd just like to point out Shisui's age was unknown. His kotoamatsukami was said to activate once every 10 years, i doubt he'd have awakened it before being a teen, and there would have to have been at least a couple of decades past for him to have noticed this phenomenon.

This makes a hell of a lot sense.
Besides, you might want to add the fact that Tobi seemed to know when a jinchuuriki's seal was supposed to be at it's weakest; childbirth.

That is not a kind of information that is freely given out, which indicates that he might have had an affiliation with Mito, somehow.
I'm still not sure if Mito gave birth before or after becoming a jinchuuriki, but seeing that people know that a seal is weakened during childbirth and she logically has to be the first ever female jinchuuriki to give birth, I find it highly plausible that said information was gained due to Mito having similar problems during her delivery.

Anyways, but I'd like to remind you that the extraction and resealing process of a bijuu doesn't necessarily have to be that messy. Although it took a hell of a long time, Akatsuki seemed pretty capable of extracting and resealing the bijuu into Gedo Mazo without creating much of a fuss. Plus, Konoha nin have a hell of a lot more knowledge than Kumo nin regarding sealing techniques thanks to Mito and her Uzumaki heritage. :shrug:

I don't know... There doesn't necessarily have to be a bijuu on rampage for a Sharingan wielder to be involved in the host changing process, a seemingly trustworthy Uchiha could be there just as a precaution.
But there are a couple of facts that negate this too...

First of all; Madara's (and later on the whole Uchiha clans') main argument was that the Uchiha weren't allowed to join in such important events, they weren't trusted.
Second of all; it's stated that only MS wielders can control a bijuu and there is a pretty short list of the known people who have awakened their MS's.
Madara, Izuna, Shisui, Itachi and Sasuke are supposedly the only ones in history to achieve said power, I'm disregarding Tobi (possibly) and Kakashi. There might have been an Uchiha lurking in the shadows and helping out Konoha just like how Danzo's Root division is, but that would be purely speculating.

Anyways, I like the sound of it, but unfortunately with the information we have at hand, it can't go any further than being just a theory. <3

The Uchihas were'nt given important adminstrative posts, like the position of Hokage etc. But lets not forget the hatred really began after the Kyuubi attacked Konoha, and the coup was planned after this event as well. Why would Konoha immediately suspect the Uchiha, it had been many years since Madara died(or was believed to), long before Danzo and the Elders were even born. Their knowledge of the uchiha being capable of controlling/summoning the Kyuubi must have come from somewhere else. Like if they used them(an uchiha) in restraining the 9 tails before themselves, that would make them certain of that clan's involvement(which they were).
I never wished for it to be anything other than a theory, either.

Just to make sure,
Your saying that possibly Konoha used an high ranking Uchiha to control the nine tails between switching host and that tobi could be that very same person

Yes, that's the theory.

I admit this is a nice theory, but I do disagree with it though. I think at any given opportunity that Tobi has to control Kurama he would have taken it and used it to destroy the village immediately.

As for Kurama recognizing Tobi, I see it like this. He can sense negative emotions, and each person is different. While being sealed he can also see what his host sees. He said to Naruto "I've seen everything you've done up until now" or something to that extent. So maybe he recognized Tobi from what he saw in either either of his previous hosts.

Assuming he always had the same ideals. Time can change people, there are many examples of this. Despite being a student of the 3rd, Oro for example became one of the greatest villains of the series. And Gaara changed from a hate obsessed shinobi into the Kazekage after meeting Naruto.

In all things regarding Tobi and the possibilities about him, especially related to his identity, consider my whole thread as being 1/100th of the total material that can be given. Don't believe me...? Lol Ask Tsuchi to un ban making new Tobi ID threads and i'll make one, it'd probably be the most detailed threads ever made on NB, i've been thinking about this question for a looong time.

Well I have to admit, this is nice. +rep.

Thanks.

I like the theory, and I repped you because you put a solid effort into it, but I disagree. According to your theory, Konoha would need an MS user to assist them in controlling the Kyuubi to prevent him from rampaging. As Kirin Rei pointed out, there are only 6 known MS users in Naruto atm (considering the fact that Obito was potentially an MS user)

With that fact in mind, when the Kyuubi attacked 16 years ago, it would have only known about Madara and MAYBE Izuna. We don't know about any MS users between Madara and Shisui, so unless Kishi has been hiding another MS user on us, it cannot be an Uchiha that helped control the Kyuubi when he was sealed into Kushina

There are 6 known MS users. And in many of those cases, their exact ages are not known.