2nd hokage vs itach
- Thread starter Naruto N. Uzumaki
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FloriGlori
Active member
I totally agree. Yet people continue to include him into versus threads. Why? We don't know anything about him. We neither do know how his Jikukan Ninjutsu worked, nor do we know how far his Edo Tensei went. Everything we saw him using were two totally basic Suiton techniques. Just stop this pointless discussion.
FloriGlori
Active member
Oh dear.. :*
There are some (not to say lots of) people without the right sense of sarcasm around here these days, so be careful with statements like this.
There are some (not to say lots of) people without the right sense of sarcasm around here these days, so be careful with statements like this.
6pathofpain
Active member
@blazerelease
regarding bringer of darkness technique,
Tobirama used it in anime, and there is no where written in the manga that tobirama cannot use it, so it means Kishi doesn't mind tobirama using bringer of darkness in anime.
You are saying kishi never showed us in manga that he can use bringer of darkness but kishi also didn't said that he cannot use it either.
So we can say he can use it.
and about kakashi using mist technique, i never realized that O.O .
But, since kakashi have title of copy ninja and he have done 1000 techniques, can't it be one of those 1000 techniques?
Maybe he learnt it while fighting zabuza?
My point is, if anime shows us someone uses a particular jutsu and manga doesn't contradicts it, then we can assume he can use that jutsu.
regarding bringer of darkness technique,
Tobirama used it in anime, and there is no where written in the manga that tobirama cannot use it, so it means Kishi doesn't mind tobirama using bringer of darkness in anime.
You are saying kishi never showed us in manga that he can use bringer of darkness but kishi also didn't said that he cannot use it either.
So we can say he can use it.
and about kakashi using mist technique, i never realized that O.O .
But, since kakashi have title of copy ninja and he have done 1000 techniques, can't it be one of those 1000 techniques?
Maybe he learnt it while fighting zabuza?
My point is, if anime shows us someone uses a particular jutsu and manga doesn't contradicts it, then we can assume he can use that jutsu.
6pathofpain
Active member
Shen Kordashi
Member
itachi has way too many advantages in this one...his genjutsu which is second to none and his susanno and it's weapons i'm not sure tobiramma can handle...i'm taking away from the second in any way it's just the fact that itachi was beyond his capabilities of handling
How long do you want to discuss about his topic? Tobirama has no known technique, maybe one shown Suiton-Jutsu. We can't talk about a charakter who didn't show us his abilitys. The worst thing is that the people here are confident of Tobiramas victory, without any knowledge about his abilitys. How absurd.
TheLOLRoller
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Naruto Uzumaki Bijuu Sage
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Uchiha Madara.
Active member
*sigh*, ive just read a few pages in this thread and im not sure what to think any more of the people on this forum. This is in relation to the people who favour tobirama. This is basically the arguments ive heard;
Tobirama is a hokage for a reason
Tobirama can use the bringer of darkness
Because hashirama =/> Madara, Tobirama =/> izuna
Tobirama can use edo tensei
Tobirama has water techniques therefore his suiton > katon
Tobirama has a s/t tech
Tobirama has in game techniques that is most likely part of his techniques
Where do i start;
Tobirama is a hokage for a reason. This is one of the dumbest arguments ive heard on nb and believe me ive heard them all. So because he is the hokage he can defeat itachi?. People need to realise that being a kage means nothing. Not before any other kage level ninja. How many of akatsuki have defeated kage ninja's. Oro defeated the 3rd kazekage and 3rd hokage. Sasori defeated the 2nd kazekage. Deidora defeated the 4th kazekage. The 4th mizukage was tobi's bitch. Itachi defeated oro who was a hokage candidate. Nagato defeated jiraiya who was a hokage candidate. Itachi defeated kakashi who was a hokage candidate. Sasuke defeated danzo who has the 6th hokage. To finally end this nonsense currently all the strong characters; sasuke, naruto, itachi, madara, tobi, kabuto are not kages, yet all of them will defeat any of the current kages. Madara is fighting all 5 ffs. For people to say tobirama is the hokage therefore he wins is plain stupid.
Tobirama can use bringer of darkness, really?. In the manga which is written by kishi, hashirama is the one who used it;
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Now alot of people will say because hashirama used it tobirama can also.Ill challenge such a stupid post and say if thats the case, tobirama can use mokouton. Just because his brother can use a technique doesnt mean he can also. Ill challenge such a stupid post with my own as say because itachi can use Ephemeral sasuke can also use it or because sasuke can use kirin, itachi can also. When in the manga does it say that because your brother can use a technique so can you. Alot of people would say that because he used it in the anime he can in the manga. You guys realise that the manga is written by kishi whilst the anime isnt. There are many scenes in the anime that do not take place in the manga. Similarly there are many techniques demonstrated by characters in the anime whom do not have this ability in the manga. A perfect example is team kakashi vs 30% itachi. In the anime kakashi used the hidden mist technique. In the manga he didnt. Now kakashi has never used the hidden mist in the manga before, never. Therefore how can you say that he has this. Only in the manga has he used it;
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Unless you can upload me a link where kakashi has used the hidden mist in the manga, you cannot give this to him. Similarly just because tobirama has used the bringer of darkness in the anime you cannot give this to him
Apparently tobirama =/> izuna therefore he can defeat itachi, seriously?.Firstly we do not know for sure the ms abilities izuna has. Lets for the sake of this argument say he has the same techniques as itachi. I highly doubt he is as proficient in tsukuyomi as itachi. For all you know he might be similar to sasuke and is proficient in amaterasu instead. Talking abot the ms, susano. Izuna might have susano, but you see the difference between his and itachi's is the legendary weapons. Now lets say both have ms's,so?. Does that mean you are equal in skill;
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I thought it all depends on the skill of the user. Now alot of people seem to think that an ms user just uses ms techniques, wrong. People seem to forget that these people are geniuses with the shairgan capable of copies many techniques. Itachi has already demonstrated katon and suiton and even though we can say izuna is also a katon user, we dont know his second element to compare him to itachi. We dont even know any of his jutsu's, nor have we seen itachi's full ninjutsu range. Finally different fighting styles yield different results. Itachi's mastery of genjutsu has allowed him to defeat s-rank ninja's with ease. Obvious examples being oro and deidora. We dont know if izuna like itachi specialises in genjutsu and this is his main fighting style. He was said to be similar to madara, meaning although he is a genjutsu user, this isnt his preferred fighting style. Also where in the manga does it say tobirama =/> izuna?, for people to say tobirama =/> itachi. Even if tobirama =/> izuna that doesnt mean tobirama =/> itachi
Tobirama can use edo tensei, so?.Who exactly is he going to summon?. Regardless as its already been said he mightve created the technique but he didnt master it to the level of oro, let alone kabuto. Basically oro's summonings (the two hokages) were like low level jonin at best. What the previous hokages showed us wasnt their true strength. If oro surpassed tobirama in edo tensei and his edo's were low jonins at best, tobirama's edo's would be like chunnin level. They would be sealed in seconds. Thats off course if he has prepared such a technique already
Tobirama is a suiton user, therefore suiton > katon, again so?.Nothing, not even water can stop amaterasu. Also people forget that itachi is also a suiton user, but along with the shairgan, he can copy the same techniques tobirama uses and counter them.
Tobirama has a s/t tech.First of all tobirama's s/t tech isnt on the same level as neither minato's or tobi's. We have no clue how his techniques works. What we do know though is that its no where near as advanced as tobi's. For somebody to have an s/t tech and yet be defeated by 20 ninja's, clearly shows that his s/t wasnt that great. Besides gin/kin bros didnt have much trouble with his s/t tech to leave him on the brink of death
Tobirama has in game techniques that is most likely part of his techniques?.Im not the person to come to if you decide to use such an argument. Do you want me to upload you youtube videos of techniques that in game characters have demonstrated that they dont have in the manga. Regardless the game is loosely based around naruto and isnt even created by kishi
Arguments for Tobirama is laughable
loool this guy owned it
Reborn
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See, I can't stand this. By this I mean I can't stand it when people do stuff to make my boy Tobi look bad and they leave ridiculous oppenings that can be exploited by strong argumentative people like the person below. Then when he's out here butchering my favorite character I begin to get an headachs and then I have to say something to uphold Tobi's integrity.
I'm only going to comment on a few things, mentioned by you Blaze since a good chunk of what you say, I agree with.
Next part, I can argue.
Next point is agreed with.
About Edo tensai smh.
Again you underestimate Tobirama's abilities, to the point it's not even funny.
I'm only going to comment on a few things, mentioned by you Blaze since a good chunk of what you say, I agree with.
First thing, other then when you're mixing up which people defeated which Kage, you're alright and I agree. Since there is only five people who are allowed to hold the rank of kage, and there are clearly several others who have the ability to become Kage. Example Jiraiya turned down the job, next person was Tsunade. Tsunade was 86ed for a moment then they wanted Kakashi, however Danzo got the seat, either way both were considered Kage level and could've held the ranks of Kage. The title means something, it means you're recognized as a leader of your village with considerably badass abilities, but there can't be dozens of Kage at one time so there. You know why Tobirama became Hokage? The same as his brother, was elected into the office by the village and chosen by his brother (this is directed towards the "he's a Kage for a reason" people because the only reason the other shinobi mentioned by Blaze weren't Kage is because they were rouge and a Kage wasn't needed at the time so they didn't need to go searching out to find a replacement atm.*sigh*, ive just read a few pages in this thread and im not sure what to think any more of the people on this forum. This is in relation to the people who favour tobirama. This is basically the arguments ive heard;
Tobirama is a hokage for a reason
Tobirama can use the bringer of darkness
Because hashirama =/> Madara, Tobirama =/> izuna
Tobirama can use edo tensei
Tobirama has water techniques therefore his suiton > katon
Tobirama has a s/t tech
Tobirama has in game techniques that is most likely part of his techniques
Where do i start
Tobirama is a hokage for a reason. This is one of the dumbest arguments ive heard on nb and believe me ive heard them all. So because he is the hokage he can defeat itachi?. People need to realise that being a kage means nothing. Not before any other kage level ninja. How many of akatsuki have defeated kage ninja's. Oro defeated the 3rd kazekage and 3rd hokage. Sasori defeated the 2nd kazekage. Deidora defeated the 4th kazekage. The 4th mizukage was tobi's bitch. Itachi defeated oro who was a hokage candidate. Nagato defeated jiraiya who was a hokage candidate. Itachi defeated kakashi who was a hokage candidate. Sasuke defeated danzo who has the 6th hokage. To finally end this nonsense currently all the strong characters; sasuke, naruto, itachi, madara, tobi, kabuto are not kages, yet all of them will defeat any of the current kages. Madara is fighting all 5 ffs. For people to say tobirama is the hokage therefore he wins is plain stupid.
Tobirama can use bringer of darkness, really?. In the manga which is written by kishi, hashirama is the one who used it;
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Now alot of people will say because hashirama used it tobirama can also.Ill challenge such a stupid post and say if thats the case, tobirama can use mokouton. Just because his brother can use a technique doesnt mean he can also. Ill challenge such a stupid post with my own as say because itachi can use Ephemeral sasuke can also use it or because sasuke can use kirin, itachi can also. When in the manga does it say that because your brother can use a technique so can you. Alot of people would say that because he used it in the anime he can in the manga. You guys realise that the manga is written by kishi whilst the anime isnt. There are many scenes in the anime that do not take place in the manga. Similarly there are many techniques demonstrated by characters in the anime whom do not have this ability in the manga. A perfect example is team kakashi vs 30% itachi. In the anime kakashi used the hidden mist technique. In the manga he didnt. Now kakashi has never used the hidden mist in the manga before, never. Therefore how can you say that he has this. Only in the manga has he used it;
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Unless you can upload me a link where kakashi has used the hidden mist in the manga, you cannot give this to him. Similarly just because tobirama has used the bringer of darkness in the anime you cannot give this to him
Apparently tobirama =/> izuna therefore he can defeat itachi, seriously?.Firstly we do not know for sure the ms abilities izuna has. Lets for the sake of this argument say he has the same techniques as itachi. I highly doubt he is as proficient in tsukuyomi as itachi. For all you know he might be similar to sasuke and is proficient in amaterasu instead. Talking abot the ms, susano. Izuna might have susano, but you see the difference between his and itachi's is the legendary weapons. Now lets say both have ms's,so?. Does that mean you are equal in skill;
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I thought it all depends on the skill of the user. Now alot of people seem to think that an ms user just uses ms techniques, wrong. People seem to forget that these people are geniuses with the shairgan capable of copies many techniques. Itachi has already demonstrated katon and suiton and even though we can say izuna is also a katon user, we dont know his second element to compare him to itachi. We dont even know any of his jutsu's, nor have we seen itachi's full ninjutsu range. Finally different fighting styles yield different results. Itachi's mastery of genjutsu has allowed him to defeat s-rank ninja's with ease. Obvious examples being oro and deidora. We dont know if izuna like itachi specialises in genjutsu and this is his main fighting style. He was said to be similar to madara, meaning although he is a genjutsu user, this isnt his preferred fighting style. Also where in the manga does it say tobirama =/> izuna?, for people to say tobirama =/> itachi. Even if tobirama =/> izuna that doesnt mean tobirama =/> itachi
Tobirama can use edo tensei, so?.Who exactly is he going to summon?. Regardless as its already been said he mightve created the technique but he didnt master it to the level of oro, let alone kabuto. Basically oro's summonings (the two hokages) were like low level jonin at best. What the previous hokages showed us wasnt their true strength. If oro surpassed tobirama in edo tensei and his edo's were low jonins at best, tobirama's edo's would be like chunnin level. They would be sealed in seconds. Thats off course if he has prepared such a technique already
Tobirama is a suiton user, therefore suiton > katon, again so?.Nothing, not even water can stop amaterasu. Also people forget that itachi is also a suiton user, but along with the shairgan, he can copy the same techniques tobirama uses and counter them.
Tobirama has a s/t tech.First of all tobirama's s/t tech isnt on the same level as neither minato's or tobi's. We have no clue how his techniques works. What we do know though is that its no where near as advanced as tobi's. For somebody to have an s/t tech and yet be defeated by 20 ninja's, clearly shows that his s/t wasnt that great. Besides gin/kin bros didnt have much trouble with his s/t tech to leave him on the brink of death
Tobirama has in game techniques that is most likely part of his techniques?.Im not the person to come to if you decide to use such an argument. Do you want me to upload you youtube videos of techniques that in game characters have demonstrated that they dont have in the manga. Regardless the game is loosely based around naruto and isnt even created by kishi
Arguments for Tobirama is laughable
Next part, I can argue.
Now Blaze, you're saying because it wasn't in the manga it's no good and Tobirama doesn't have the technique. Now considering that the only difference with that entire scene is the, who used what. I hear people saying that "not in manga, not kishi, doesn't count" I get tired of that so much, when certian things happen in the anime that are within the realm of belief and pose no direct threat/contradictions to the plot or the sanctity of the Narutoverse, it can be taken as reality, even if it's the anime people who are drawing it up. Even still, just because Kishi isn't the one doing it, doesn't mean he has no influence over the anime what so ever but that's besides the point. What I'm getting at is, the fact that we see the two brothers use the same jutsu, however only one is premired in the manga while the other is in anime doesn't make it necessarily null. I mean, why can't it be believable that he has such a technique in his arsinal, it's not directly affecting the plot or anything, Hiruzen was caught in it either way so what's the point. I'm going at this by saying it's in the realm of belief and no direct major harm or contridiction to the series that Tobirama has it and there is no reason why he can't have it for this fictional battle. Clan of 1000 techniques, the genjutsu isn't kekkei genkai so why can't he have the technique, they are brothers, and generally brothers have similar abilities (I'll get to that piece in a moment ). I count the genjutsu as usable even if it's not in the manga because it doesn't change two shits and it it's not farfetched in the least.
What you say about the two brothers having same abilities as your argument, Sasuke has Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukuyomi, Fireball, Phoenix and flower....So does Itachi They both have Sharingan....they're brothers....Kekkei genkai and everything is different, however what I'm saying is, primarily for techniques like Fireball and phoenix flower, which are basic in the Uchiha clan, why can't a genjutsu be basic for the Senju? Hashi and Tobi were part of a clan, and fought in wars against shinobi with ocular powers, and this jutsu fights against ocular jutsu (blocks the light of sight), and as far as we know, Senju and Uchiha have been going toe to toe for some time now, so why is it not believable. The whole "manga is the only legit" is just as bad as some of these arguments you attack when the significance is really irrelivant, especially in this case, it is so small that it seems like a weak tactic for an attack, seriously.
). I count the genjutsu as usable even if it's not in the manga because it doesn't change two shits and it it's not farfetched in the least.What you say about the two brothers having same abilities as your argument, Sasuke has Amaterasu, Susanoo, Tsukuyomi, Fireball, Phoenix and flower....So does Itachi
They both have Sharingan....they're brothers....Kekkei genkai and everything is different, however what I'm saying is, primarily for techniques like Fireball and phoenix flower, which are basic in the Uchiha clan, why can't a genjutsu be basic for the Senju? Hashi and Tobi were part of a clan, and fought in wars against shinobi with ocular powers, and this jutsu fights against ocular jutsu (blocks the light of sight), and as far as we know, Senju and Uchiha have been going toe to toe for some time now, so why is it not believable. The whole "manga is the only legit" is just as bad as some of these arguments you attack when the significance is really irrelivant, especially in this case, it is so small that it seems like a weak tactic for an attack, seriously.Next point is agreed with.
Izuna is irrelivant to the conversation, basing the match between shinobi by comparing them to other candidates that have no meaning to the conversation, especially when no abilities have been demonstrated, is just stupid. Madara=Izuna (up until ems) is the precieved, idk where people assume that Izuna and Tobirama were rivals and therefore had to be equal, meaning Izuna=Tobirama (in Ms) which automatically means Tobirama>Itachi because Itachi with MS is<Izuna right? People, please don't do this....We don't know if Itachi was better then either Madara or Izuna when it comes to primariy MS, we don't know Tobirama is=Izuna (I wouldn't doubt it though but I'm not getting into that) and also the ability for a character to be equal or greater then one doesn't mean the same for the same characters in other situations. I'll use an example.
For the sake of argument Izuna>Itachi and Tobirama=Izuna, now that doesn't mean Tobirama>Itachi when it comes to who's going to win in a fight. Izuna may be better equipped to fight against Itachi then Tobirama is in the situation, and Tobirama's skills just happen to be at points where Izuna is weak in that Itachi may not be strong in. When Itachi and Tobirama fight, the weaknesses Izuna could exploit may not be the same ones Tobirama could and visa versa. What this is all saying it's based on the conditions of the battle and the prowess of the two shinobi fighting, so I agree with you here Blaze.
For the sake of argument Izuna>Itachi and Tobirama=Izuna, now that doesn't mean Tobirama>Itachi when it comes to who's going to win in a fight. Izuna may be better equipped to fight against Itachi then Tobirama is in the situation, and Tobirama's skills just happen to be at points where Izuna is weak in that Itachi may not be strong in. When Itachi and Tobirama fight, the weaknesses Izuna could exploit may not be the same ones Tobirama could and visa versa. What this is all saying it's based on the conditions of the battle and the prowess of the two shinobi fighting, so I agree with you here Blaze.
About Edo tensai smh.
Now we know Tobirama didn't master it to the the extent of either Orochimaru or Kabuto, however for it to be notible to the extent where a Kage from his time period knew of the technique and could recognize it, would mean there was some level of use to it, that Tobirama had. It wasn't something he created that was a dud, obviously it was sucessful for use if it was created and recognized, which would mean it had been used at some point in time. What I see you doing is comparing the level of skill between the Edo Tensai summoned by Orochimaru to that of Tobirama's. To that I have two comments.
1) This is towards your severe underestimation of the level at which Hashirama and Tobirama were summoend by Orochimaru. Two low jounin level? I emplore you to re-state that saying that two lower level jounin shinobi could wreck Hiruzen. Tell me that two low jounin level shinobi could block high level fire jutsu with their bare hands, create great bodies of water from thin air and without seveal seals. Hashirama's forest creation was that ove a lower level jounin right? This is the first time I've heard bs from you honestly, it really is. Not to mention you're saying two low jounin defeated the Hokage. In no way, shape or form, were the Hashirama and Tobirama summoned by Orochimaru, less then Kage class and you and I both know it. Hiruzen was still worthy of the title of Hokage at his age and I feel, could go toe to toe in his elderly years with the bottom half (the weaker members) of Akatsuki and even win. That statement you said about low jounin, at best! omg smh.
2) You look at the skill of the summons, however you need to realize the skill of the shinobi is not the function of Edo Tensai. A shinobi summoned back is summoned back during their prime, with all their powers and abilities...however they don't fight like they would innately as they're being controled. The control Orochimaru had over them wasn't even poor enough for you to make the statement you did but you can't call the skill level of the shinobi out like that, as if it were a basis for the jutsu. The jutsu's function, is to summon shinobi from the afterlife, back to the world or impure plain and through controling talismen the shinobi's wills can be surpressed to certian extents, that is the extent of the jutsu, not the ability of the shinobi summoned. Now this is where you argue Tobirama's abilities in using this jutsu...could he preform the jutsu where he could store the shinobi away for a later date or could he only summon them on the spot, requiring the ritual, which would mean he needs prep time during battle, not before battle? Could he maintain complete control of his summons? Could he sustain the connection between the pure world and the impure world for long? Those are things you can make a basis on Tobirama's abilities with the jutsu, not the skill at which the shinobi are summoned.
Sharingan can copy jutsu, however the thing with that is, though it can copy a jutsu, it doesn't appear as if the shinobi can outright preform the jutsu right back at the shinobi. You can make the argument about Kakashi vs Zabuza part 1, Kakashi was matching him jutsu for jutsu, however take a look at Sasuke. To me it looks like some preparation or some minor practice to get the full hang of a jutsu is required. Think about it rationally, you can see the jutsu and copy it yes however the chakra control, can you copy the chakra control needed to redo the jutsu right off the bat? It took Sasuke a month to learn Chidori, if the whole Sharingan case is ture then Kakashi would just need to use it once and Sasuke's should be just as good as his the moment he tried it.
Also, you insult Itachi's intelligence by implying Itachi would dare try to use a water jutsu against Tobirama, you can copy a technique but you can't always copy the skill, power, and dexterity of the jutsu, also if there is no water around, where is Itachi going to copy his water jutsu from? Surely he's not going to manipulate Tobirama's jutsu in mid technique right? lol Itachi's proficiency in water means nothing to Tobirama.
1) This is towards your severe underestimation of the level at which Hashirama and Tobirama were summoend by Orochimaru. Two low jounin level? I emplore you to re-state that saying that two lower level jounin shinobi could wreck Hiruzen. Tell me that two low jounin level shinobi could block high level fire jutsu with their bare hands, create great bodies of water from thin air and without seveal seals. Hashirama's forest creation was that ove a lower level jounin right? This is the first time I've heard bs from you honestly, it really is. Not to mention you're saying two low jounin defeated the Hokage. In no way, shape or form, were the Hashirama and Tobirama summoned by Orochimaru, less then Kage class and you and I both know it. Hiruzen was still worthy of the title of Hokage at his age and I feel, could go toe to toe in his elderly years with the bottom half (the weaker members) of Akatsuki and even win. That statement you said about low jounin, at best! omg smh.
2) You look at the skill of the summons, however you need to realize the skill of the shinobi is not the function of Edo Tensai. A shinobi summoned back is summoned back during their prime, with all their powers and abilities...however they don't fight like they would innately as they're being controled. The control Orochimaru had over them wasn't even poor enough for you to make the statement you did but you can't call the skill level of the shinobi out like that, as if it were a basis for the jutsu. The jutsu's function, is to summon shinobi from the afterlife, back to the world or impure plain and through controling talismen the shinobi's wills can be surpressed to certian extents, that is the extent of the jutsu, not the ability of the shinobi summoned. Now this is where you argue Tobirama's abilities in using this jutsu...could he preform the jutsu where he could store the shinobi away for a later date or could he only summon them on the spot, requiring the ritual, which would mean he needs prep time during battle, not before battle? Could he maintain complete control of his summons? Could he sustain the connection between the pure world and the impure world for long? Those are things you can make a basis on Tobirama's abilities with the jutsu, not the skill at which the shinobi are summoned.
Sharingan can copy jutsu, however the thing with that is, though it can copy a jutsu, it doesn't appear as if the shinobi can outright preform the jutsu right back at the shinobi. You can make the argument about Kakashi vs Zabuza part 1, Kakashi was matching him jutsu for jutsu, however take a look at Sasuke. To me it looks like some preparation or some minor practice to get the full hang of a jutsu is required. Think about it rationally, you can see the jutsu and copy it yes however the chakra control, can you copy the chakra control needed to redo the jutsu right off the bat? It took Sasuke a month to learn Chidori, if the whole Sharingan case is ture then Kakashi would just need to use it once and Sasuke's should be just as good as his the moment he tried it.
Also, you insult Itachi's intelligence by implying Itachi would dare try to use a water jutsu against Tobirama, you can copy a technique but you can't always copy the skill, power, and dexterity of the jutsu, also if there is no water around, where is Itachi going to copy his water jutsu from? Surely he's not going to manipulate Tobirama's jutsu in mid technique right? lol Itachi's proficiency in water means nothing to Tobirama.
Again you underestimate Tobirama's abilities, to the point it's not even funny.
If his S/T wasn't much then why the hell even mention it in comparison to your own technique or that of another shinobi? And you can't say it was nowhere near Tobi's level or it was less then Minato's level of jutsu. What Minato said (correct me if I'm wrong I'm going by one translation) Tobi's space time jutsu was greater then his and Tobiramas...did Minato say his was stronger then Tobirama's? It sounded like he was placing them rather on the same plane or near each other (Minato's and Tobirama's that is) in terms of it's overall ability so 86 that idea of yours. Also Minato's jutsu was seen as inferior to Tobi's yet Minato managed to defeat him with it, what's to say Tobirama doesn't have the mind enough to use his harm Tobi with his, jutsu are tools, remember that However back to the point, Tobirama's ST is not even implied to be weak quite the opposite.
1) The 20 nin were Kumo elite, it's almost like putting 1 kage vs 7swordsmen of the mist. It's not the same but they're implied to be eliete of Kumogakure, and obviously if they were fighting several other shinobi before they weeded them down to just 7, they weren't fodder.
2) Tobirama was fighting on the battle front, who's to say he wasn't exhausted or he had used a lot of chakra already?
3) You have a Kage vs 2 Psudo Jinchuuriki who can go 6 tails, are distantly related to the Sage meaning innate badassness inherited, and have the weapons of the sage...the fact that Tobirama didn't die is a impressive feat in a respect.
However back to the point, Tobirama's ST is not even implied to be weak quite the opposite.1) The 20 nin were Kumo elite, it's almost like putting 1 kage vs 7swordsmen of the mist. It's not the same but they're implied to be eliete of Kumogakure, and obviously if they were fighting several other shinobi before they weeded them down to just 7, they weren't fodder.
2) Tobirama was fighting on the battle front, who's to say he wasn't exhausted or he had used a lot of chakra already?
3) You have a Kage vs 2 Psudo Jinchuuriki who can go 6 tails, are distantly related to the Sage meaning innate badassness inherited, and have the weapons of the sage...the fact that Tobirama didn't die is a impressive feat in a respect.
Tsukuyomi47
Member
Ahh more cool boys...
firstly by doing this U_U wont make u look any cooler
secondly its 3 dots not 22
kid...
kid.................
see which 1 is more dramatic
Reborn
Active member
Awards
please don't do that, nothing of what you said or of the other either, had anything to do with the topic. It doesn't matter how many dots the guy puts, nothing you need to question really, lets stick to the topic people, this is how threads are closed although this one is overdue....BUT NOT UNTIL BLAZE RESPONDS!
OT: My post is not to be confused with me saying Tobirama wins this, however it is to make sure people like Blaze don't get to walk all over him because of fail, one line arguements people make.
Neither character wins becaues not enough sufficient evidence is in existance about one to make a fair conclusion, meaning this thread is rather pointless.
Onion Soda
Active member
*sigh*, ive just read a few pages in this thread and im not sure what to think any more of the people on this forum. This is in relation to the people who favour tobirama. This is basically the arguments ive heard;
Tobirama is a hokage for a reason
Tobirama can use the bringer of darkness
Because hashirama =/> Madara, Tobirama =/> izuna
Tobirama can use edo tensei
Tobirama has water techniques therefore his suiton > katon
Tobirama has a s/t tech
Tobirama has in game techniques that is most likely part of his techniques
Where do i start
Tobirama is a hokage for a reason. This is one of the dumbest arguments ive heard on nb and believe me ive heard them all. So because he is the hokage he can defeat itachi?. People need to realise that being a kage means nothing. Not before any other kage level ninja. How many of akatsuki have defeated kage ninja's. Oro defeated the 3rd kazekage and 3rd hokage. Sasori defeated the 2nd kazekage. Deidora defeated the 4th kazekage. The 4th mizukage was tobi's bitch. Itachi defeated oro who was a hokage candidate. Nagato defeated jiraiya who was a hokage candidate. Itachi defeated kakashi who was a hokage candidate. Sasuke defeated danzo who has the 6th hokage. To finally end this nonsense currently all the strong characters; sasuke, naruto, itachi, madara, tobi, kabuto are not kages, yet all of them will defeat any of the current kages. Madara is fighting all 5 ffs. For people to say tobirama is the hokage therefore he wins is plain stupid.
Tobirama can use bringer of darkness, really?. In the manga which is written by kishi, hashirama is the one who used it;
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Now alot of people will say because hashirama used it tobirama can also.Ill challenge such a stupid post and say if thats the case, tobirama can use mokouton. Just because his brother can use a technique doesnt mean he can also. Ill challenge such a stupid post with my own as say because itachi can use Ephemeral sasuke can also use it or because sasuke can use kirin, itachi can also. When in the manga does it say that because your brother can use a technique so can you. Alot of people would say that because he used it in the anime he can in the manga. You guys realise that the manga is written by kishi whilst the anime isnt. There are many scenes in the anime that do not take place in the manga. Similarly there are many techniques demonstrated by characters in the anime whom do not have this ability in the manga. A perfect example is team kakashi vs 30% itachi. In the anime kakashi used the hidden mist technique. In the manga he didnt. Now kakashi has never used the hidden mist in the manga before, never. Therefore how can you say that he has this. Only in the manga has he used it;
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Unless you can upload me a link where kakashi has used the hidden mist in the manga, you cannot give this to him. Similarly just because tobirama has used the bringer of darkness in the anime you cannot give this to him
Apparently tobirama =/> izuna therefore he can defeat itachi, seriously?.Firstly we do not know for sure the ms abilities izuna has. Lets for the sake of this argument say he has the same techniques as itachi. I highly doubt he is as proficient in tsukuyomi as itachi. For all you know he might be similar to sasuke and is proficient in amaterasu instead. Talking abot the ms, susano. Izuna might have susano, but you see the difference between his and itachi's is the legendary weapons. Now lets say both have ms's,so?. Does that mean you are equal in skill;
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I thought it all depends on the skill of the user. Now alot of people seem to think that an ms user just uses ms techniques, wrong. People seem to forget that these people are geniuses with the shairgan capable of copies many techniques. Itachi has already demonstrated katon and suiton and even though we can say izuna is also a katon user, we dont know his second element to compare him to itachi. We dont even know any of his jutsu's, nor have we seen itachi's full ninjutsu range. Finally different fighting styles yield different results. Itachi's mastery of genjutsu has allowed him to defeat s-rank ninja's with ease. Obvious examples being oro and deidora. We dont know if izuna like itachi specialises in genjutsu and this is his main fighting style. He was said to be similar to madara, meaning although he is a genjutsu user, this isnt his preferred fighting style. Also where in the manga does it say tobirama =/> izuna?, for people to say tobirama =/> itachi. Even if tobirama =/> izuna that doesnt mean tobirama =/> itachi
Tobirama can use edo tensei, so?.Who exactly is he going to summon?. Regardless as its already been said he mightve created the technique but he didnt master it to the level of oro, let alone kabuto. Basically oro's summonings (the two hokages) were like low level jonin at best. What the previous hokages showed us wasnt their true strength. If oro surpassed tobirama in edo tensei and his edo's were low jonins at best, tobirama's edo's would be like chunnin level. They would be sealed in seconds. Thats off course if he has prepared such a technique already
Tobirama is a suiton user, therefore suiton > katon, again so?.Nothing, not even water can stop amaterasu. Also people forget that itachi is also a suiton user, but along with the shairgan, he can copy the same techniques tobirama uses and counter them.
Tobirama has a s/t tech.First of all tobirama's s/t tech isnt on the same level as neither minato's or tobi's. We have no clue how his techniques works. What we do know though is that its no where near as advanced as tobi's. For somebody to have an s/t tech and yet be defeated by 20 ninja's, clearly shows that his s/t wasnt that great. Besides gin/kin bros didnt have much trouble with his s/t tech to leave him on the brink of death
Tobirama has in game techniques that is most likely part of his techniques?.Im not the person to come to if you decide to use such an argument. Do you want me to upload you youtube videos of techniques that in game characters have demonstrated that they dont have in the manga. Regardless the game is loosely based around naruto and isnt even created by kishi
Arguments for Tobirama is laughable
1)Agree, saying he was a hokage and ONLY that isn't an argument, but you have to take in mind the time were he was Hokage: Uchiha weren't ***** at that time, there was people like Muu and Oonoki, 2nd mizukage, 2nd and 3rd raikage + Kin and Gin. So basically 2nd to 3rd generation of kages were the best as a general rule except maybe for Suna. Tobirama at least fighted Muu (he knewed IWR and Madara was pushing him alongside Oonoki to start a conflict with Konoha, see spoiler).
This is the war that took the first two hokages (Nidaime after singing peace)
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So Tobirama must have been a real boss to being the strongest ninja alive from Konoha.
Being the Nidaime Hokage, at the worst moment in Narutoverse history !?
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2)Tobirama using Mokuton?? where do you read that?? I need to read it too when I get High xd. Now back on that, Tobirama used in the anime that tech (bringer of darkness) and in the games (Hashi here can do that too). I don't think it's illogical to give this jutsu, in this ocassion, cuz the jutsu was given after the original release. Wich reveals 3 situations
A)To fix the action. It makec more sence at that time (at least for me). You know, at that time genjutsu was underrated like it's something really basic, non-dangerous and only used for distraction (Itachi's one is the exception for all those "rules"). "Why give to the all almighty, legendary and mokuton user such a lesser jutsu? Let's change it to make it more acordding to all the hype ahead".
B)To show that both Senju bros can do it, (games hint this). which was the senju's nickname? The one thousand tech clan. This nickname doesn't mean everyone knows 1000 jutsu, it means that they know a bunch of usefull jutsus for every ocasion... and sinces they used to fight uchihas.
Also, Bringer of darkness isn't related in any way to KGs. Could be that this jutsu was like a kage-bushin nowadays for all members of senjus¿?... 3rd Raikage ever used bushin-no-jutsu, so he don't know it = he's a failure (get it?
)C)Productors got high or they're very blind for distinguish a brother from the other...
Yes, thy're so alike... just LIKE TWINS
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3)Agree, but it's just for the sake of show that he had previously fighted MS users, and all of they we've see used genjutsu at least one time with high proficiency (Madara used it against kyuubi!!, Sasuke is fair good he caught C, Shisui... Itachi...) so all of MS users are good in genjutsu... and all the uchihas too... and if you're their eternal rival, you should have a counter for it, if not you would be killed at first sight in a battle. Tobirama used to fight Uchihas--> all good in ocular genjutsu --> he could do something as simple as guy or something complex like sense them, but in any case eye-to-eye contact is forbidden and every Senju knew it.
Itachi's susano'o is a formidable jutsu, sure, but consumes to much chackra and deteriorates sight really fast (take in mind that itachi is almost blind and sick...). Also, susano'o is a last resort tech, and it sn't a fast one...
4)Orochimaru's edos weren't low-jounin level they used each one an A or S rank jutsu, the edos were badly controled, it's different. Orochimaru find the way to force the edos to follow his orders. Tobirama likely summoned his fallen comrades like his brother but abandoned the tech because it goes against the will of fire. Owarij (I'm pretty sure it was him) explained this pretty well which are my beliefs about this matter.
5)we know only 3 S/T jutsu users... did you saw that fight?? how do you know that this tech isn't great?? Yes, he was put to the brink of death by 20 ninjas. how were they called? oh, yes, Kinkaku's army. Sure two kage level ninjas that can enter 5-tails cloak mode and have all of the SO6P treasures aren't a big deal, they only tried coup d' (I don't know how to spel it xd) against kumo with SURELY 18 fodder ninjas...
Oh, and after that fight they dissapeared from history until Kabuto resurrected them, ocassion in wich A had a chill...
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Yup, as you say, they aren't something enough formidable.
6)already countered.
Your at-all-cost of Itachi in EVERYONE of your posts is also laughable
