[Discussion] Naruto Antagonists... The definition of Anti-Villain

[CasualMisfit]

Naruto Antagonists... The definition of Anti-Villain​

CONTAINS SPOILERS​

This is a big read... I'm not making any huge discoveries... so only read if you have the time!

Looking at alot of the villains in Naruto. You'll find that those we consider evil... aren't as evil as you would imagine and those considered good... you get the picture.

We'll talk about.

• Itachi
• Madara/Tobi
• Sasuke
• Pain aka Nagato

First of all... What is an anti-villain?

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The Anti-Villain is a villain with heroic goals, personality traits, and virtues. Their desired ends are good, but their means of getting there are evil.
They reach a kind of critical mass that makes them more good than normal villains but not quite heroes, blurring the line between hero and villain the same way an Anti-Hero does.

Itachi

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Itachi believes/d in peace and stability... Pertaining particularly to his home village of Konohagakure and more so the well being of his brother.

I brand him a Type III: Well-Intentioned Anti-Villain.

Spoiler

The Well-Intentioned Extremist. They may believe in a good goal, but use whatever means there are to achieve it. The sympathy the audience can garner for this character comes from the fact that they basically share the same goal as the hero, but are pragmatically, expediently, or pessimistically, ruthless about it. They can very much be conscious about their morally questionable actions, but feel that there is no other way. Common antagonist in White and Grey Morality scenarios and relatively likely to be redeemed if shown the error of their ways depending on how "extremist" they are. These Anti Villains may become more malicious true villains, but they are more likely to either stay in this category or possibly morph into a Type II Anti-Villain. The Type III can also be a revolutionary of some sort, fighting against the main character only due to their affiliation to some government or organization, and usually fighting for a noble cause. Alternatively, they may not even realize what they're doing is wrong or making things worse in the first place.

Why?

He agreed with the higher ups to massacre his clan and his direct family. The people who raised (loved him). Leaving only his little brother Sasuke. Before departing, he tormented said brother with images of his loved ones dying. He then told him to kill his best friend in order to gain power, told him to live a life of hatred and vengeance. He handed the thing most precious to him... a poison chalice.

We now know/assume he did all this for good reason. But don't be fooled... Itachi is no hero. His methods were evil and cruel no matter which way you try and look at it... and it has only ended badly regardless of all his "failsafes".

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Madara and Tobi

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From what we know about these two, they are also on a quest for peace. However they intend to strip away the freedom, liberties and dreams from human beings.

I brand them Bog Standard Anti-Villains

Why?

As stated, they seek peace. A world without suffering. Their methods would be considered evil. They do not care who dies in the process... every loss is a means to an end.. every life destroyed... the same... "For the greater good". But who can deny peace is a good thing right?

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Sasuke

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A good kid turned bad.

I brand him Type II: Woobie Anti-Villain

Spoiler

It's obvious that these types of villains don't WANT to be evil; circumstances just make them out to be. They may act out of Undying Loyalty or love for someone or maybe they're simply fighting for their own survival. Others are broken cuties who have snapped and want to end their suffering by destroying everything. Usually they are suffering from their alignment. The characters garners our sympathy not because their goal is good but because we can see how the Crapsack World made them the way they are. Often suffer from a damaged psyche. Anti-Villains in this category may become true villains, but they're also just as likely to turn into an Anti-Hero.

Why?

Let's face it... he got the doodoo end of the stick. Lost his family... his brother becoming a beacon of hate. All this at a young age... and when things were getting good. Itachi shows up once again and makes him relive the whole odeal. You know the rest.

He shouted at Kakashi. "BRING BACK MY CLAN AND ITACHI... THEN I'LL STOP". He is acting out of love... not hatred. He loved Itachi and everything he is doing is out of love ironically... It's that negative feeling called grief. His only way to make his pain stop is to destroy everything. Is it evil or is it a human reaction towards the injustice done to his brother and clan?

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Nagato

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Naruto's philosophical brother drew a parallel with Itachi and Sasuke. Another peace lover. Difficult life... lot's of loss... His story wasn't too dissimilar to Sasuke's.

Branded Type II: Woobie Anti-Villain/A-typical Type III: Well-Intentioned Anti-Villain

Why?

Well it's obvious by now no? Experienced hardship but unlike Sasuke... he created an ideology. Pain creates pain, creates understanding, creates periods of peace. (very flawed in my opinion). He again would go to any extent to create HIS brand of peace.

He was however moved by Naruto's ideals and changed.

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You:

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I've pretty much stated the obvious.

What I wanted to bring into discussion is how similar protagonists and antagonists are in Naruto. Not just their abilities and backstories... but their actual goals. They are all fighting each other for the same thing.

However... The heroes we call Kage's aren't/weren't fighting for peace/unity... but for their freedom. They joined forces only because they were drawn in by a common enemy. How noble are the good guys then?

During the course of the war... the idea of gathering all the Shinobi villages has become a goal of Oonoki. Already the seeds of peace have been sown... yet Madara/Tobi still believe that only their peace is the right peace.

Whichever way you look at it... The recent main antagonists (save for Sasuke and the likes of Orochimaru/Kabuto)... are fighting for the same thing as the protagonists and both are intent on killing for it. They're fighting themselves... to me everyone in Naruto might as well be sat infront of the Falls of Truth.

What do ya have to add NB?!

Fanboys and Fangirls welcome!

As for all this fanboy/girl crap... I'm pretty sick of hearing that term used to preemptively devalue other people's opinions... If someone is a biased fan of something... that is their right and they reserve the right to their expression and opinion related to their fandom.

 

[Vayne]

agreed

 

[adamgwaps]

impressive and uhm ...well explained ... coool dude!!

 

[satori]

your sig is pretty cool dude. Most anime is developed that way though or at least the mangas I have read. Not just Naruto. I´m not really sure you can brand a good/bad guy cus they all fight for a positive ideal. As you said the methods may be wrong but the intentions are good. I think it all comes down to how you would feel in you were in the characters shoes you know. I mean in his shoes not bringin in your believes but imagineing its life as your own. I think thats the only way to really label how a hero or villain.

 

[Mino]

well I agree on most parts, but Sasuke is no anti-villain. he is the real deal and he does not aquire peace as one of his goals. He is driven by vengiance and there is nothing good about it even though he was good in the beginning. most are

 

[Mizukata]

unfortunaty i did not read yet it looks like you have put alot of work into it...cool man

 

[Floydical]

Noted. But what about Danzo?

 

[CasualMisfit]

your sig is pretty cool dude. Most anime is developed that way though or at least the mangas I have read. Not just Naruto. I´m not really sure you can brand a good/bad guy cus they all fight for a positive ideal. As you said the methods may be wrong but the intentions are good. I think it all comes down to how you would feel in you were in the characters shoes you know. I mean in his shoes not bringin in your believes but imagineing its life as your own. I think thats the only way to really label how a hero or villain.

Exactly. It's easy for people to stand in judgement... but rarely do we consider how it would be to BE that person. Essentially we can never say what we wold do or believe in if we were someone else entirely.

 

[Hyakk]

Total re-post just read it again you explained that he has just snapped and he is type 2 sorry for not reading it thorough the first time. Have read thoroughly know and agree with everything
Well thought out

 

[CasualMisfit]

well I agree on most parts, but Sasuke is no anti-villain. he is the real deal and he does not aquire peace as one of he's goals. He is driven by vengiance and there is nothing good about it even though he was good in the beginning. most are

Sasuke is victim of circumstance. Without the constant idea of Itachi being out there... Things would have been different... they almost were. If Sasuke could bring eveyone back... he would stop... he already said that to Kakashi. He doesn't want his life like this so until he sees a glimmer of light he can attach to... yes he is nearly a pure villain... IMO of course.

Noted. But what about Danzo?

Type III: Well-Intentioned Anti-Villain
The Well-Intentioned Extremist. They may believe in a good goal, but use whatever means there are to achieve it. The sympathy the audience can garner for this character comes from the fact that they basically share the same goal as the hero, but are pragmatically, expediently, or pessimistically, ruthless about it. They can very much be conscious about their morally questionable actions, but feel that there is no other way. Common antagonist in White and Grey Morality scenarios and relatively likely to be redeemed if shown the error of their ways depending on how "extremist" they are. These Anti Villains may become more malicious true villains, but they are more likely to either stay in this category or possibly morph into a Type II Anti-Villain. The Type III can also be a revolutionary of some sort, fighting against the main character only due to their affiliation to some government or organization, and usually fighting for a noble cause. Alternatively, they may not even realize what they're doing is wrong or making things worse in the first place.

Total re-post just read it again you explained that he has just snapped and he is type 2 sorry for not reading it thorough the first time. Have read thoroughly know and agree with everything
Well thought out

NP! Thanks and thanks for your input!

 

[Mino]

Sasuke is victim of circumstance. Without the constant idea of Itachi being out there... Things would have been different... they almost were. If Sasuke could bring eveyone back... he would stop... he already said that to Kakashi. He doesn't want his life like this so until he sees a glimmer of light he can attach to... yes he is nearly a pure villain... IMO of course.



Type III: Well-Intentioned Anti-Villain
The Well-Intentioned Extremist. They may believe in a good goal, but use whatever means there are to achieve it. The sympathy the audience can garner for this character comes from the fact that they basically share the same goal as the hero, but are pragmatically, expediently, or pessimistically, ruthless about it. They can very much be conscious about their morally questionable actions, but feel that there is no other way. Common antagonist in White and Grey Morality scenarios and relatively likely to be redeemed if shown the error of their ways depending on how "extremist" they are. These Anti Villains may become more malicious true villains, but they are more likely to either stay in this category or possibly morph into a Type II Anti-Villain. The Type III can also be a revolutionary of some sort, fighting against the main character only due to their affiliation to some government or organization, and usually fighting for a noble cause. Alternatively, they may not even realize what they're doing is wrong or making things worse in the first place.

He can be a victim of circumstances as much as he want he is still no anti-hero with a goal like vengeance. That he will cling on to light if he even saw a little is simply not true. He is the villain true and through. He said himself that all he saw was darkness and he have been given hope and all that, but he refused it. He knows he cant bring anyone back and I dont think that would made much of a difference. What he said to kakashi is that he wanted to kill everyone who was somehow connected with the history of the Leaf.. not much left for anti-heroism with that attitude.. and dont get me wrong, I am not bashing him, I am only saying that he fits the description of evil villain guy with evil motives and goals.

 

[CasualMisfit]

He can be a victim of circumstances as much as he want he is still no anti-hero with a goal like vengeance. That he will cling on to light if he even saw a little is simply not true. He is the villain true and through. He said himself that all he saw was darkness and he have been given hope and all that, but he refused it. He knows he cant bring anyone back and I dont think that would made much of a difference. What he said to kakashi is that he wanted to kill everyone who was somehow connected with the history of the Leaf.. not much left for anti-heroism with that attitude.. and dont get me wrong, I am not bashing him, I am only saying that he fits the description of evil villain guy with evil motives and goals.

Wait wait.. I never said anti-hero... anti-villian...

He shouted at Kakashi. "BRING BACK MY CLAN AND ITACHI... THEN I'LL STOP". Yes he can only see darkness because the light he can cling to himself is absent. People have tried but like I said... it's not a light he can relater to/cling to. He is acting out of love... not hatred. He loved Itachi and everything he is doing is out of love ironically... It's that negative feeling called grief. His only way to make his pain stop is to destroy everything. Is it evil or is it a human reaction towards the injustice done to his brother and clan?

 

[Mino]

Wait wait.. I never said anti-hero... anti-villian...

He shouted at Kakashi. "BRING BACK MY CLAN AND ITACHI... THEN I'LL STOP". Yes he can only see darkness because the light he can cling to himself is absent. People have tried but like I said... it's not a light he can relater to/cling to. He is acting out of love... not hatred. He loved Itachi and everything he is doing is out of love ironically... It's that negative feeling called grief. His only way to make his pain stop is to destroy everything. Is it evil or is it a human reaction towards the injustice done to his brother and clan?

ah well I meant anti-villain.. my bad
I think what he said to Kakashi could be considered as sarcasim as he knows that it is impossible... there is a fine line between love and hate my friend. Too know evil means that one most know love. He turned the love he had for Itachi and his clan to hate for everyone who lives under the leaf. Cant get much more evil than that. Yes what he is doing is evil.

 

[satori]

He can be a victim of circumstances as much as he want he is still no anti-hero with a goal like vengeance. That he will cling on to light if he even saw a little is simply not true. He is the villain true and through. He said himself that all he saw was darkness and he have been given hope and all that, but he refused it. He knows he cant bring anyone back and I dont think that would made much of a difference. What he said to kakashi is that he wanted to kill everyone who was somehow connected with the history of the Leaf.. not much left for anti-heroism with that attitude.. and dont get me wrong, I am not bashing him, I am only saying that he fits the description of evil villain guy with evil motives and goals.

His idea is that since Konoha wanted to get rid of the Uchiha so bad that they had them murdered, now he will destroy the bonds of that bad blood by destroying Konoha. I don´t think he should destory all of Konoha but I stated before that I agree to the point of murdering the elders for what they did. Plus if you believe what you said wouldn´t that make Konoha just as evil?? I mean they ordered an execution to protect their interests. Just cus you preach something doesn´t neccesarily mean you employ it. Konoha preaches peace and the value of life but will not hesitate to kill other for their own benefit. Thats a greater evil then Sasuke IMO.

 

[Mino]

His idea is that since Konoha wanted to get rid of the Uchiha so bad that they had them murdered, now he will destroy the bonds of that bad blood by destroying Konoha. I don´t think he should destory all of Konoha but I stated before that I agree to the point of murdering the elders for what they did. Plus if you believe what you said wouldn´t that make Konoha just as evil?? I mean they ordered an execution to protect their interests. Just cus you preach something doesn´t neccesarily mean you employ it. Konoha preaches peace and the value of life but will not hesitate to kill other for their own benefit. Thats a greater evil then Sasuke IMO.

Konohas interest were the safety of the masses. The uchia wanted and planned a coup de tat which would result in civil war and endless suffering. It was not something the elders sat around a table with grinning faces rubbing their fists as they ordered Itachi to do what was an evil necessity at the time. The needs of the many outweighs the need of the few. It is simple logic and ethics.

 

[CasualMisfit]

ah well I meant anti-villain.. my bad
I think what he said to Kakashi could be considered as sarcasim as he knows that it is impossible... there is a fine line between love and hate my friend. Too know evil means that one most know love. He turned the love he had for Itachi and his clan to hate for everyone who lives under the leaf. Cant get much more evil than that. Yes what he is doing is evil.

Not denying that what he is doing is evil at all... if you read the definition of a wobbie that I gave again you'll see what the point is. naturally there is a thin line between love and hate... both are considered temporary forms of insanity after all... also connected to the same neuro patterns that appear with use of heavy narcotics.

Either way... the source is love... he is only so full of hate because that love was compromised. But then again... that is simply perspective... I would rather say he is acting out of love... if he didn't love Itachi... he wouldn't give a damn.

His idea is that since Konoha wanted to get rid of the Uchiha so bad that they had them murdered, now he will destroy the bonds of that bad blood by destroying Konoha. I don´t think he should destory all of Konoha but I stated before that I agree to the point of murdering the elders for what they did. Plus if you believe what you said wouldn´t that make Konoha just as evil?? I mean they ordered an execution to protect their interests. Just cus you preach something doesn´t neccesarily mean you employ it. Konoha preaches peace and the value of life but will not hesitate to kill other for their own benefit. Thats a greater evil then Sasuke IMO.

Bingo... Alot of the heroes of the story come across very hypocritical. Rather than approach the Uchiha and try and reason with them... they immediately moved towards the most drastic of actions... Konoha's government is just as evil as the Uchiha ... They could almost be called anti-villains themselves... (everyone who had a hand in the massacre). Further more... the Uchiha wanted a coup... They did not want to wipe out all non-Uchiha... they were merely frustrated about being sidelined. An issue of pride.

Konohas interest were the safety of the masses. The uchia wanted and planned a coup de tat which would result in civil war and endless suffering. It was not something the elders sat around a table with grinning faces rubbing their fists as they ordered Itachi to do what was an evil necessity at the time. The needs of the many outweighs the need of the few. It is simple logic and ethics.

Again... a very anti-villain stance. Kill families, children etc... "for the greater good"!

 

[Baka Sennin]

nice read. i agree completely with itachi and nagato

sasuke, i think is driven more out of hatred than out of grief. Danzo put it best, he just throws his anger at anything that comes in front of him. he is a victim of circumstance too, but he's continually choosing the path of hatred. he said himself killing danzo gave him a high, even though he had stabbed his friend in the process (who had saved his life numerous times mind you). And unlike before he killed itachi, now he's killing everyone who gets in his way, samurai, team7, taka, zetsu, whoever. he's become like Madara.

Madara and Tobi i agree, but they're not the same. For some reason, Tobi seems to me to be much more invested in the moons eye plan whereas Madara is more interested in himself, and project tsuki no me is just a sidethought. Imo Madara is a true villian, not an anti-villian. He's killing people just to test out his powers

Would you classify Orochimaru as a true villian btw? I only have a bit of doubt because of the way he became twisted, losing his parents and becoming saddened by the fragility of life and so on. Kabuto on the other hand i've no doubts about

 

[Tartarus]

+rep for two reasons
1)Being a fellow TV tropes scholar
2)Thank you, you are the only other person on this site who considers Itachi an anti-villain, not some Mary sue martyr. I actually find Itachi to be a much more interesting character if viewed as an anti-villain, he's much more three dimensional in that role.

 

[Mino]

Not denying that what he is doing is evil at all... if you read the definition of a wobbie that I gave again you'll see what the point is. naturally there is a thin line between love and hate... both are considered temporary forms of insanity after all... also connected to the same neuro patterns that appear with use of heavy narcotics.

Either way... the source is love... he is only so full of hate because that love was compromised. But then again... that is simply perspective... I would rather say he is acting out of love... if he didn't love Itachi... he wouldn't give a damn.



Bingo... Alot of the heroes of the story come across very hypocritical. Rather than approach the Uchiha and try and reason with them... they immediately moved towards the most drastic of actions... Konoha's government is just as evil as the Uchiha ... They could almost be called anti-villains themselves... (everyone who had a hand in the massacre). Further more... the Uchiha wanted a coup... They did not want to wipe out all non-Uchiha... they were merely frustrated about being sidelined. An issue of pride.




Again... a very anti-villain stance. Kill families, children etc... "for the greater good"!

Ok you are getting some of what I am saying and I did not say that Konoha not were hypocritical to some extent. they were. That Sasuke is acting out of love is not important in this setting. His motives or actions can not be justified with love. He still want to kill everyone of the leaf.

I reread the definition and I would not say that Sasuke fits that role. He does not think of what he is doing or wanting to do as evil. He want a sick form of misguided justice which was planted by Tobi.

So you are saying that Uchias pride is more valuable than all the possible collateral damage in a very likely civil war? The elders had to choose between two evils and chose the latter one. The massacre of the Uchia. As horrifying it was it was also a necessity for the safekeeping of the village and its people whom also the Uchia were a part of.

Fire fights fire and Sasuke is nowhere near being a good boy or justifiable. That is what makes him a good character. Him being evil to the root.

 

[CasualMisfit]

nice read. i agree completely with itachi and nagato

sasuke, i think is driven more out of hatred than out of grief. Danzo put it best, he just throws his anger at anything that comes in front of him. he is a victim of circumstance too, but he's continually choosing the path of hatred. he said himself killing danzo gave him a high, even though he had stabbed his friend in the process (who had saved his life numerous times mind you). And unlike before he killed itachi, now he's killing everyone who gets in his way, samurai, team7, taka, zetsu, whoever. he's become like Madara.

Madara and Tobi i agree, but they're not the same. For some reason, Tobi seems to me to be much more invested in the moons eye plan whereas Madara is more interested in himself, and project tsuki no me is just a sidethought. Imo Madara is a true villian, not an anti-villian. He's killing people just to test out his powers

Would you classify Orochimaru as a true villian btw? I only have a bit of doubt because of the way he became twisted, losing his parents and becoming saddened by the fragility of life and so on. Kabuto on the other hand i've no doubts about

The simplest way I could describe Sasuke's mindset is blind rage... Taking into account what you've just said.. that's what it sounds like to me... Yeah I remember him saying something along the lines of "I already feel that the taint the Uchiha name has is being washed away!", after he killed Danzo. Madara is definitely leaning towards the darker end of the spectrum. He seems to have a very sadistic nature indeed.

I originally wrote in abit about Orochimaru as a comparison against anti-villains with him being a pure villain. But as I wrote I began to realise that he himself may be considered an anti villain. As you say... he also may have gone down this path due to the loss of his parents but as the wobbie definition goes... He eventually became totally villainous without a positive goal.

All his goals were seemingly self serving.

As for Kabuto... We don't know much about his past or his true feelings about it.. So it's hard to define his role as a villain. For now though, I agree with you and echo your statement about him being a pure villain!

+rep for two reasons
1)Being a fellow TV tropes scholar
2)Thank you, you are the only other person on this site who considers Itachi an anti-villain, not some Mary sue martyr. I actually find Itachi to be a much more interesting character if viewed as an anti-villain, he's much more three dimensional in that role.

Thanks man!

I agree. It certainly does add more depth to him if you think of him along those lines... I never really liked Itachi for what he did.. even after the truth came out. I couldn't imagine wiping out my entire family and tormenting my sister into a life of hatred and loneliness (kill you best friend). I'd find another way. So would Naruto "I'll find a way to stop Sasuke without killing him AND protect the hidden leaf".

He is in no way a martyr. He did the unthinkable and regardless of his end goal... In my eyes... he's still a villain. (I think he himself realises that).

Ok you are getting some of what I am saying and I did not say that Konoha not were hypocritical to some extent. they were. That Sasuke is acting out of love is not important in this setting. His motives or actions can not be justified with love. He still want to kill everyone of the leaf.

I reread the definition and I would not say that Sasuke fits that role. He does not think of what he is doing or wanting to do as evil. He want a sick form of misguided justice which was planted by Tobi.

So you are saying that Uchias pride is more valuable than all the possible collateral damage in a very likely civil war? The elders had to choose between two evils and chose the latter one. The massacre of the Uchia. As horrifying it was it was also a necessity for the safekeeping of the village and its people whom also the Uchia were a part of.

Fire fights fire and Sasuke is nowhere near being a good boy or justifiable. That is what makes him a good character. Him being evil to the root.

I understand where you're coming from totally I just don't agree on a few points.

Most people who perform evil without remorse rarely consider their actions as evil. I agree that Sasuke is one of these people.

I also agree about the elders having to make a tough choice. Not for a second do I condone either's actions, (I feel like I'm discussing real political and ethical matters here... Kishi' writes a good story... I digress)... I also agree that Sasuke is nowhere near being a good guy atm. But it's set to change... there's still a chance he could return to the good fight. This is how the story has been set up. Either way.... until we can define Sasuke as 100% unsavable... I can't agree that he is a pure villain yet.

I think both our opinions are accurate to an extent... we're just favouring either side of his possible nature in the balance of good and evil! xD