Ive already showed you not only images of itachi using genjutsu at long range but also Ao and Shikaku's statement. (hate repeating myself). If minato was to be caught in a long range genjutsu, both him and his summoning are vulnerable to any real life attack
Think you might need reading classes, this is to do with the bold part.
I do agree that we havent seen enough of minato but this is going by what we have seen.
What i would say is that the idea of his fans giving him techniques he hasnt shown is what made me to create such a thread and end this, but also for future purposes
Ah, yes fans, they are useless, some are to igorant.
- But come on, I saw in this thread, that someone said he coudln't do bunshin no jutsu ( minato couldn't ) in order to pass the freaking acedemy, you need to do bunshin no jutsu, and he became kage, wow what the **** is that even to say?...
OFF TOPIC : This is for you all itachi fanboys.
If Itachi is so powerfull, so strong, so good. " he genjtu u en 1 seound u no chance " Why didn't he do this to the man who gave the order to wipe out his entire clan? Danzo.. OR IF HE WAS so good, he could had taken on the Hokage spot, and then he could wipe danzos ass of the narutoervse without it haveing bad influence.
There was a reason 4th hokage got appointed at a early age, that is because KAGE Rank is suppose to be the strongst in the village, and if Itachi didn't do that above, then theres a reason that Minato > Itachi.
Ah, yes fans, they are useless, some are to igorant.
- But come on, I saw in this thread, that someone said he coudln't do bunshin no jutsu ( minato couldn't ) in order to pass the freaking acedemy, you need to do bunshin no jutsu, and he became kage, wow what the **** is that even to say?...
OFF TOPIC : This is for you all itachi fanboys.
If Itachi is so powerfull, so strong, so good. " he genjtu u en 1 seound u no chance " Why didn't he do this to the man who gave the order to wipe out his entire clan? Danzo.. OR IF HE WAS so good, he could had taken on the Hokage spot, and then he could wipe danzos ass of the narutoervse without it haveing bad influence.
There was a reason 4th hokage got appointed at a early age, that is because KAGE Rank is suppose to be the strongst in the village, and if Itachi didn't do that above, then theres a reason that Minato > Itachi.
Taking out Danzo would not have insured peace, the problem was the Uchiha's lust for power and control taking out the order to destroy the clan would not have prevented the civil war and resulting world war. Itachi's goal was to preserve peace from within the shadows not only to preserve that peace but to preserve the noble status of the Uchiha clan which had fallen to corruption and was no better then the kaguya at the end of their history.
Itachi would not be able to be appointed hokage at 13 (genjutsu manipulation or not) Sandame was the better leader itachi did not have the influence nor pull for such a roll regardless of his combat and illusionary prowess....This however says nothing of his capabilities and intelligence. Uchiha Madara was obviously immensely powerful but he did not have the political stature to obtain the seat. Being a Kage is about more then military might.
I would like to say that minato is jiraya`s student + kakashi also can perform shadow clone. Even though he hasnt show it as yet but if he can use shadow clone then itachi is done for.
I am currently unemployed and on vacation. I took a full 30 minutes to read all this and analyze it. Great piece i'd say, you have an in depth knowledge in this subject. However Its still bullocks you know? Itachi has had more episodes than Minato, and we've had the chance to see Almost all his skills. However, everyone keeps describing Minato as a genius. A genius for only Ftg and Rasengan? Come on people, Probably Kishi would turn up with another chapter of Minato soon and we'll realise, we don't even know half the justus in his inventory.
I didn't bother to read all replies, because while most people go crazy for this stuff, there's a little detail no one has paid real attention to: We HAVE SEEN Itachi use all of his techniques and they are very impressive, but we HAVE NOT SEEN all of Minato's prowess. All we have seen so far is shown in flashbacks.
Now I think that IF we ever get the chance to see Minato (or any character) using all his techniques (a la Itachi), then we can start making good vs threads.
What i will like to say first of all is that im going to explain 3 scenarios.
The first one being genjutsu rendering ftg useless thus minato is vulnerable to real life attacks.
In all these instances, its bloodlust, meaning both characters can use their strongest attacks to finish of the match and from what we have seen from itachi's he isnt afraid to use the ms from the get of
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After all what we have seen from both, they like to end their matches pretty quickly.
Scenario 1, ftg useless under genjutsu;
From what we know both characters a close range fighters as seen in all their fights. They arent long range fighters like gaara, diedora, etc.....
Now in all of itachi's fights he has used genjutsu from the start. He has demonstrated 3 forms of simple genjutsu.
The first one being a paralyses genjutsu he used on oro;
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Oro who has a 5/5 and a genius was caught in a paralyses genjutsu. When he was about to dispell it he got his hand cut. Itachi shouldve amaterasu'ed the bastard or cut of his head instead of his hand. As you can see genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
Madara has demonstrated a similar paraylses genjutsu which again render the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks;
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Kurenai arugable konoha's best genjutsu user, tried a genjutsu on itachi and itachu countered it and put her in a state where she had to play the defensive;
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Even though itachi countered the genjutsu, since kurenai is the one who utilised it she already knew that she was in a genjutsu and dispelled it. Even after she dispelled it in time she was vulnerable to a real life attack;
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In the link above as i said kurenai was vulnerable to real life attack. She did break the genjutsu in time since she created it and she knew she was in one, but the most important this is that she even though she blocked itachi's kick, it showed us that not even her was able to dispel it in time and evade that kick at all. Now if this was bloodlust itachi he couldve amaterasu'd her instead tried to kick her in the face
The next genjutsu itachi has displayed is a genjutsu that is so real that, the user doesnt even know that he is in one as demonstrated with deidora. In the genjutsu everything in the real world was exactly the same, including the setting. This is what fooled deidora.
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Deidora was fooled from the start because the genjutsu was so real. As you also saw he nearly blew himself up in the real world. Again genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
The third genjutsu itachi has shown us is when he can burst into crows at will. He has demonstrated to be able to do this in real life but also in a genjutsu.
Genjutsu crow;
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After their genjutsu duel, the real life battle started and even then itachi could still burst into crows in real life at will;
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As i said both fighters are short range/mid range fighters and ill show you links to demonstrate this. Ive already shown you two links of itachi being a short range fighter and this was him vs oro and him vs deidora. Notice the distance between him and his opponent, then notice the distance between minato and his opponents.
More images of itachi being a short range fighter;
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Now ill show links of minato being a short range fighter. Its actually obvious because in all his fights, either in the war or against A or tobi, he has used ftg to in close in order to use a kunai or ransegan. Either way ill show you links;
Notice the space gap between him and tobi;
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Similarly the space gap between him and A and notice the time he spams ftg kunai's
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From what weve have seen both are short/mid range fighters. In all of itachi's encounters he has used genjutsu from the start. What im trying to say is that, tack tobi/A out of the picture and include itachi instead. The chances are minato would be in a genjutsu from the start even before he can spam ftg kunai.
Once in a genjutsu as i said he is vulnerable to attacks. In order for him to use ftg he has to dispell the genjutsu that same second or else in that second it takes him to try and get out of a paralyses genjutsu or a genjutsu that seems so real that, he doesnt know that he is in one, itachi can use any technique he wants in real life to end the fight.
Ill give you two scenario's of other genjuitsu's itachi has demonstrated that copied the real life so much that it fooled his opponents. They didnt even know that they were in a genjutsu;
Genjustu was so real naruto thought it was real life;
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In the link below itachi saying wont/cannot use the ms on naruto, due to him being a 30% clone or because he obviously doenst want to physical hurt/capture naruto. This link proves that if itachi really wanted to hurt naruto and he wasnt a 30% clone, he couldve easily used the ms on him in real life because he is vulnerable to real life attacks, as ive proved earlier;
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Similar sasuke got caught in a genjutsu that seemed so real that it fooled him;
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In all the links above ive showed yout that both are close range fighters. Also showed you that itachi can make either paralysis his opponents and with this are vulnerable to real life attacks, but also he can make his genjutsu so real that his opponents wouldnt even know that they are in one. Minato would be caught in a genjutsu even before he spams his ftg, whilst in this genjutsu and he doesnt realise, he is vulnerable to real life attacks.
This can be amaterasu, tsukuyomi, cut minato's hand off the same way he did to oro or seal him with the totsuka sword in real life whilst he is still trying to figure out whether he is a genjutsu or not. Or him in the process of trying to dispell the genjutsu.
Talking about the totsuka sword. Poepl underestimate its speed. It caught both oro and nagato in the middle of a speech. Similar in the process of minato trying to dispel the genjutsu, it will also pierce him;
Similarly like oro didnt finish his sentence, minato wouldnt dispell the genjutsu
in tell to avoid to avoid the totsuka sword in real life;
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From the moment ct was destroyed, the sword had already peirced nagato. Similarly even before minato can try to either figure out that he is in a genjutsu or has realised and is trying to dispell it, the sword wouldve pierced him in real life even before he can dispell the genjutsu;
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Now that we know both are short/mid range fighter and we know that itachi uses genjutsu from the start. The question who do you think will be able to make the first move. The person who can catch you in a genjutsu with merely a finger, his body or his eyes or somebody who has to spam ftg tags around the area. Think its fair to say that minato would be in a genjutsu before he can most likely throw the first kunai or in the middle or spamming it.
The next question is once in a genjutsu that seems so real that he doesnt even know he is in one, how long will it take him before he realises and tried to dispel it.
If he is a paralysis genjutsu its even harder to dispel it because it paralysis the opponent. Even before he can dispell itachi couldve attacked and ended this fight, like the way he has done to ninja's above.
Alot of minato fans know this and say minato is either immune to genjutsu, he can fight long range because itachi's genjutsu ios short range. Ill tear that claim in peices, starting with minato is immune to genjutsu.
Alot of people say kage level ninja's are immune to genjutsu. Allow me to destroy not only that myth but the myth about genjutsu immunity totally.
Sarutobi a hokage getting put into genjutsu by the first hokage;
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Clearly he isnt immune to it.
Real life attacks;
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The 2nd mizukage, killed muu the 2nd tsuckage, the 2nd miukage is a genjutsu user and i have no doubt in my mind that this helped him defeat muu, both died though;
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There is also a myth around jinchircki;s being immune to genjutsu. What i will tell you know if you havent realised about naruto is that there is no such thing as invincible, immune, immortal, invisible and although minato isnt a jinchrucki i want to show you that if genjutsu works on a perfect jinchricki, its working on minato.
The 4th mizukage who was also said to be a perfect jinckrucki was controlled in a genjutsu by tobi;
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Bee was caught in a genjutsu by sasuke. It affected him as we see him on the floor but he later broke it and countered sasuke;
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Unlike sasuke, itachi actually successfully caught bee in it again;
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Now elite genjutsu user have been caught in genjutsu (kurenai, sasuke and itachi), kage level ninja's have been caught in genjutsu (oro was a hokage candidate, sarutobi, muu, itachi), geniuses have been caught in genjutsu ( sarutobi, itachi, oro), jinchrucki have been caught in genjutsu (yagura, bee), Sharigan users have been caught in genjutsu (kakashi, itachi sasuke). If in all these scenario's a these people have caught how can you possibly say minato is immune when not even the people ive named above are immune to it.
Read this thread if you want to know how dumb some minato fans are; (
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Another thing minato fans have said is that minato can stay away from itachi around (70 yards) and throw ftg kunai. They say that because they believe this way minato will not be caught in genjutsu because they believe itachi's genjutsu is short range. Not only are they being ignorant because itachi has displayed long range genjutsu but also in the manga AO says that itachi can produce long range genjutsu. Ill show you images of itachi using long range genjutsu, but also the link of Ao claims.
What people fail to realise is that before itachi met with naruto and sasuke during their pursit of him the real itachi was already at the uchiha hideout waiting for sasuke. The itachi that faced naruto and sasuke were kage bunshins, what people fail to realise is that kage bunshins can use the original techniques as naruto;s clones has showed us several times.
The itachi that put naruto in a genjutsu was a kage bunshin;
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Its this same kage bunshin that met put sasuke in a genjutsu then told him to come to the hideout;
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In the link below, sasuke finally reaches the hidout, where the real itachi was there waiting for him;
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Ao and shukaku talking;
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What minato fans either dont get or refuse to believe is that, once in a genjutsu (illusion), minato has to dispel it, before he can actually come back to real life and spam ftg tags.
In the first scenario if comes down to who would make the first move.
Itachi who genjutsu comes to him easy or minato who can spam ftg tags?. Personally i believe itachi.
The second senario would be me assuming minato has full knowledge of itachi's techniques therefore he doesnt look into his eyes when he fights and instead his feet
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Therefore he avoids eye contact, what they fail to get is that itachi doesnt even need eye contact as ive said above and demonstrated this with manga links.
There are many things wrond with this stragety. Firstly itachi doesnt need eye contact but also it leaves the opponent vulnerable to amaterasu as the link below would explain;
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How would minato know that he is about to get amateru'ed, if he cannot see above itachi's chin, as this link proves;
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Now if minato is looking at itachi's eyes he would no doubt be able to evade amaterasu, but if he cannot see it he cannot evade it. You cannot evade something you cannot see.
A was able to see sasuke's eyes and evade it;
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If minato is looking at his feet he cannot evade it as ive said, in order to evade it you have to be able to see it. As ive demonstrated minato either has to face the fact that he has look into itachi's eyes and fight, therefore tsukuyomi is on the card. If he decides to use gai's counter, its useless because itachi can still use genjutsu but also, he would be able to use amaterasu.
So how would minato fight this one.
Now what minato fans forget is that minato doesnt have infinite ftg kunai's he would run out of kunai's to through depending on how many he has. Minato fans say he would stand 70 yards and spam kunai, what they forget is that even if itachi's doenst know of ftg, if somebody throws a kunai at you you would obviously counter it. What i would also say is that if itachi can counter the kunai's even before it gets half way between him and minato, he is out of range of the ftg kunai's.
Do i believe itachi can counter all those kunai's?, off course. He is arguably the best kunai/shuriken thrower in the series.
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Minato fans say he would avoid close range due to genjutsu and spam ftg from long range. Well itachi's genjutsu are long range, but also those ftg kunai's wouldnt reach him because as ive showed you he would counter all of them even before it reaches him.
Now if does try close range, he would be an easier target for genjutsu but again his ftg tags would be countered.
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In long range its a pointless fight for minato, In short range he has a chance but also pointless because, ftg kunai's would be countered but also genjutsu is on the cards.
Whilst itachi is countering minato's kunai's he has shown to be so fast with handseals that he can counter every kunai and create a clone
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If minato was to rasengan itachi its highly possible that he will disperse into a flock of frows and tsukuyomi;
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Scenario 2 summary. In close range itachi has the advantage as ive described in scenario 1. In scenario 2 were minato has knowledge of itachi's techs and avoid close range and chooses long range as minat fans say, he is still as a disadvantage because at long range ftg kunai's would be countered even easier, he can still be put under genjutsu. If he tries gai's counter to the sharigan, he is vulnerable to amaterasu and if he chooses to ignore gai's counter and fight whilst looking at itachi, he can evade amaterasu but all of itachi;s other techniques/genjutsu will affect him regardless.
The final scenario is that both have full knowledge of each others techniques.
How would he fight, becaue in senario 1 its close range he is at a disadvantage as its shwoed you. In long range he is also at a disadvantage as ive showed you even if he has info on itachi.
Now if itachi can counter all of those ftg tags and isnt in range of him, minato doesnt have an ftg tag close to itachi to teleport to him and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite ftg kunai. Meaning once all those kunai's have been countered and itachi is out of range of the ftg seals, does it come down to a true fight, since minato wouldnt be given the time to try and regain his ftg kunai in order to spam it again.
Once he has finished with his kunai's and the tag still isnt in range of itachi, he has to fight using his base speed. To all the minato fans out there he didnt get his nickname, yellow flash due to his base speed but rather ftg
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Now what people seem to forget is that his base speed in high speed movement. Shunshin no jutsu as ive been said several times. Majority of ninja's who have high speed movement use this technique. I'll decode the difference betwee minato base speed, ftg and A's raiton armour.
Now A also uses shunshin (body flciker), but his body flicker isnt as fast as base minato. Its still fast as zetsu said. This is base A vs base minato.
Base A is noted to be very fast as Zetsu said;
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Still not fast enough against minato's base speed even if both use the shunshin no jutsu.
A in v1 raiton is the same speed as base minato, because he combines his shunshin no jutsu with raiton, whilst in minato's case its just shunshin but minato's shunshin as ive said is faster therefore the combination of A is shunsin and raiton v1 makes it on par with it.
As madara said, the lightning release body flicker;
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In v1 A and minato's base speed are the same. In v2 his speed is faster than minato. He has heard of A and has acknwloedged his speed;
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Thats why in the next page he decided to spam ftg, because A went v2 straight away and minato's base speed isnt as on par with v2, whilst ftg is faster than v2.
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Its because of ftg that allowed him to evade it;
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Basically what im trying to say is that;
Minato's shunshin (base speed)> A (base speed)
Minato's base speed = A raiton v1
A raiton v2 > minato's base speed
Ftg > A v2 raiton
Now that we have already established that in the 3 rd senario if itachi counters all the ftg kunai's and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite amount, he would have to fight using his base speed, especially if his ftg kunai's are out of itachi's range. Neither will he have the time to go on his kees and try to recover some of his ftg kunai's to use again. Therefore whilst he can use his base speed for offence, he can use ftg for defence because he can teleport back to where those kunai's are, but then again genjutsu is available to itachi to use if minato's teleports back to where the kunais are. That of course on how which stragety he plans on using against itachi. Looking at his feet and being amaterasu'ed or looking at his eyes and the possibility of tsukuyomi?.
Anyway now that we have seen that minato's base speed = A v1 raiton, although its still fast i can see itachi living with him.
Sasuke was able to keep up with A in v1 raiton, but also wound him.
This shows sasuke's speed (4.5/5) and reflexes ability
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Sasuke's reflexes and speed is great but not compared to itachi's. Although able to evade be's assault, he still got wounded;
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Now there is a reason why itachi has a 5/5 for speed in the data book. His reflexes and speed is greater than sasuke's.
Able to keep up with km naruto;
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Evaded both him and bee's attack;
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Evaded the same attack sasuke did, but in his case he wasnt injured at all;
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Now, im not saying itachi base = minato's base. What im saying is that he himself is no slow turtule. He has demonstrated many speed feats in the manga and deserves kishi rating of a 5/5 for speed. His speed and reflexes are faster than sasuke's.
Now bee was able to counter ftg in time in the sense that he had a knife at minato's belly.
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Now im not saying base itachi speed is ftg speed, but in this image bee wasnt able to counter the same way he did to minato;
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If itachi can get out of reach of those ftg kunai's, afterall if those kunai's do not reach the target minato also doesnt meaning that minato has to use his base speed as his main offence and ftg as his defence because at least he can teleport back to where his ftg markings are, itachi has a great chance to win this, because even if he does teleport back to where the tags are, itachi's genjutsu is long range, he still has ways to attack minato whilst minato doesnt. Not to forget he either has to chose to look at itachi's feet when he fights therefoer amarasu is on the card, If he doesnt and looks in his eyes tsukuyomis is on the card. If itachi can counter all those ftg tags and leave enough space between himself and those tags, im sure he can deal with minato's base speed not to forget he is at the advantage due to minato either not looking into his eyes or looking into his eyes. He still has long and short range attacks. In the form of defence, he can create a clone, that if gets hit he disperse. He still has susano if needed.
Minato fans are clearly biting more than they can chew, calling me out. successfully champion scenario 1. Doubt anybody would get past it LOGICALLY let alone 2 and even 3. You minato fans are clearly biting more than you can chew, running before you can walk.
This isnt a vs thread. Its just for my convenience in future debates.
If you plan on debating feel free but if it isnt worthy of a responce ill ignore it
You are mostly right, but wrong on a few key points. Firstly, Minato already demonstrated that he puts a tag in the seal teleportation sequence which takes him back to one of his hideouts, where he has more equipment. Then he continues back using one of the tags he's already thrown. In this way, his kunai supply is almost limitless.
You are right about the base speed and the teleport speed, I believe I made that point as well.
You are wrong that Minato can't look at Itachi while fighting him - he can use reflections of kunai, summonings (from inside a frog, with protection), and peripheral vision to get very quick glances, which is generally enough for him. The reason it isn't enough against Itachi is, Itachi can plant techniques into objects by touch them, making seeing them impossible until they already activate (with the condition for activation possibly being that they are already touching the opponent).
Itachi and Minato will both have the same first moves in any scenario. Itachi already knows about Minato, and Minato knows enough about Uchiha to be careful and use his custom seals to protect himself from high B level techniques. Itachi would switch to a flock of crows, meaning that a technique which covers lots of space in a very customized way is necessary to beat him, since he has shown the crows can use their own techniques, and work with one mind (their Sharingan work like Rinnegan, but better). Then Itachi combines Susano'o with the Mirror Shield for defense (no chakra or physical attacks work, nor can seals get close enough). Itachi uses his eyes to try to locate his opponent, and the Sword of Totsuka to seal them. Minato has only one choice - take an immediate headshot to try to destroy Itachi before Itachi uses any techniques (he would have to start within about ten feet of Itachi, with no techniques of Itachi's activated and no guards up), or try to flee and work on custom seals and reconnaissance. At that point, Itachi would find him, and seal him. Itachi's sword has been demonstrated to cover great distances with teleportation speed (so fast you can't see it come towards you even with advanced eye techniques, and realize literally after you are hit). Itachi can use the flock of Sharingan crows to scout with efficiency.
Ah, yes fans, they are useless, some are to igorant.
- But come on, I saw in this thread, that someone said he coudln't do bunshin no jutsu ( minato couldn't ) in order to pass the freaking acedemy, you need to do bunshin no jutsu, and he became kage, wow what the **** is that even to say?...
OFF TOPIC : This is for you all itachi fanboys.
If Itachi is so powerfull, so strong, so good. " he genjtu u en 1 seound u no chance " Why didn't he do this to the man who gave the order to wipe out his entire clan? Danzo.. OR IF HE WAS so good, he could had taken on the Hokage spot, and then he could wipe danzos ass of the narutoervse without it haveing bad influence.
There was a reason 4th hokage got appointed at a early age, that is because KAGE Rank is suppose to be the strongst in the village, and if Itachi didn't do that above, then theres a reason that Minato > Itachi.
Itachi left before Minato become Hokage and before Tobi revealed his existence. He decided to wipe the clan out because they planned to stage a coup. He didn't want to usurp Sarutobi, he wanted to keep Tobi in check.
What i will like to say first of all is that im going to explain 3 scenarios.
The first one being genjutsu rendering ftg useless thus minato is vulnerable to real life attacks.
In all these instances, its bloodlust, meaning both characters can use their strongest attacks to finish of the match and from what we have seen from itachi's he isnt afraid to use the ms from the get of
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After all what we have seen from both, they like to end their matches pretty quickly.
Scenario 1, ftg useless under genjutsu;
From what we know both characters a close range fighters as seen in all their fights. They arent long range fighters like gaara, diedora, etc.....
Now in all of itachi's fights he has used genjutsu from the start. He has demonstrated 3 forms of simple genjutsu.
The first one being a paralyses genjutsu he used on oro;
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Oro who has a 5/5 and a genius was caught in a paralyses genjutsu. When he was about to dispell it he got his hand cut. Itachi shouldve amaterasu'ed the bastard or cut of his head instead of his hand. As you can see genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
Madara has demonstrated a similar paraylses genjutsu which again render the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks;
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Kurenai arugable konoha's best genjutsu user, tried a genjutsu on itachi and itachu countered it and put her in a state where she had to play the defensive;
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Even though itachi countered the genjutsu, since kurenai is the one who utilised it she already knew that she was in a genjutsu and dispelled it. Even after she dispelled it in time she was vulnerable to a real life attack;
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In the link above as i said kurenai was vulnerable to real life attack. She did break the genjutsu in time since she created it and she knew she was in one, but the most important this is that she even though she blocked itachi's kick, it showed us that not even her was able to dispel it in time and evade that kick at all. Now if this was bloodlust itachi he couldve amaterasu'd her instead tried to kick her in the face
The next genjutsu itachi has displayed is a genjutsu that is so real that, the user doesnt even know that he is in one as demonstrated with deidora. In the genjutsu everything in the real world was exactly the same, including the setting. This is what fooled deidora.
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Deidora was fooled from the start because the genjutsu was so real. As you also saw he nearly blew himself up in the real world. Again genjutsu renders the opponent vulnerable to real life attacks.
The third genjutsu itachi has shown us is when he can burst into crows at will. He has demonstrated to be able to do this in real life but also in a genjutsu.
Genjutsu crow;
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After their genjutsu duel, the real life battle started and even then itachi could still burst into crows in real life at will;
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As i said both fighters are short range/mid range fighters and ill show you links to demonstrate this. Ive already shown you two links of itachi being a short range fighter and this was him vs oro and him vs deidora. Notice the distance between him and his opponent, then notice the distance between minato and his opponents.
More images of itachi being a short range fighter;
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Now ill show links of minato being a short range fighter. Its actually obvious because in all his fights, either in the war or against A or tobi, he has used ftg to in close in order to use a kunai or ransegan. Either way ill show you links;
Notice the space gap between him and tobi;
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Similarly the space gap between him and A and notice the time he spams ftg kunai's
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From what weve have seen both are short/mid range fighters. In all of itachi's encounters he has used genjutsu from the start. What im trying to say is that, tack tobi/A out of the picture and include itachi instead. The chances are minato would be in a genjutsu from the start even before he can spam ftg kunai.
Once in a genjutsu as i said he is vulnerable to attacks. In order for him to use ftg he has to dispell the genjutsu that same second or else in that second it takes him to try and get out of a paralyses genjutsu or a genjutsu that seems so real that, he doesnt know that he is in one, itachi can use any technique he wants in real life to end the fight.
Ill give you two scenario's of other genjuitsu's itachi has demonstrated that copied the real life so much that it fooled his opponents. They didnt even know that they were in a genjutsu;
Genjustu was so real naruto thought it was real life;
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In the link below itachi saying wont/cannot use the ms on naruto, due to him being a 30% clone or because he obviously doenst want to physical hurt/capture naruto. This link proves that if itachi really wanted to hurt naruto and he wasnt a 30% clone, he couldve easily used the ms on him in real life because he is vulnerable to real life attacks, as ive proved earlier;
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Similar sasuke got caught in a genjutsu that seemed so real that it fooled him;
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In all the links above ive showed yout that both are close range fighters. Also showed you that itachi can make either paralysis his opponents and with this are vulnerable to real life attacks, but also he can make his genjutsu so real that his opponents wouldnt even know that they are in one. Minato would be caught in a genjutsu even before he spams his ftg, whilst in this genjutsu and he doesnt realise, he is vulnerable to real life attacks.
This can be amaterasu, tsukuyomi, cut minato's hand off the same way he did to oro or seal him with the totsuka sword in real life whilst he is still trying to figure out whether he is a genjutsu or not. Or him in the process of trying to dispell the genjutsu.
Talking about the totsuka sword. Poepl underestimate its speed. It caught both oro and nagato in the middle of a speech. Similar in the process of minato trying to dispel the genjutsu, it will also pierce him;
Similarly like oro didnt finish his sentence, minato wouldnt dispell the genjutsu
in tell to avoid to avoid the totsuka sword in real life;
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From the moment ct was destroyed, the sword had already peirced nagato. Similarly even before minato can try to either figure out that he is in a genjutsu or has realised and is trying to dispell it, the sword wouldve pierced him in real life even before he can dispell the genjutsu;
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Now that we know both are short/mid range fighter and we know that itachi uses genjutsu from the start. The question who do you think will be able to make the first move. The person who can catch you in a genjutsu with merely a finger, his body or his eyes or somebody who has to spam ftg tags around the area. Think its fair to say that minato would be in a genjutsu before he can most likely throw the first kunai or in the middle or spamming it.
The next question is once in a genjutsu that seems so real that he doesnt even know he is in one, how long will it take him before he realises and tried to dispel it.
If he is a paralysis genjutsu its even harder to dispel it because it paralysis the opponent. Even before he can dispell itachi couldve attacked and ended this fight, like the way he has done to ninja's above.
Alot of minato fans know this and say minato is either immune to genjutsu, he can fight long range because itachi's genjutsu ios short range. Ill tear that claim in peices, starting with minato is immune to genjutsu.
Alot of people say kage level ninja's are immune to genjutsu. Allow me to destroy not only that myth but the myth about genjutsu immunity totally.
Sarutobi a hokage getting put into genjutsu by the first hokage;
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Clearly he isnt immune to it.
Real life attacks;
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The 2nd mizukage, killed muu the 2nd tsuckage, the 2nd miukage is a genjutsu user and i have no doubt in my mind that this helped him defeat muu, both died though;
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There is also a myth around jinchircki;s being immune to genjutsu. What i will tell you know if you havent realised about naruto is that there is no such thing as invincible, immune, immortal, invisible and although minato isnt a jinchrucki i want to show you that if genjutsu works on a perfect jinchricki, its working on minato.
The 4th mizukage who was also said to be a perfect jinckrucki was controlled in a genjutsu by tobi;
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Bee was caught in a genjutsu by sasuke. It affected him as we see him on the floor but he later broke it and countered sasuke;
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Unlike sasuke, itachi actually successfully caught bee in it again;
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Now elite genjutsu user have been caught in genjutsu (kurenai, sasuke and itachi), kage level ninja's have been caught in genjutsu (oro was a hokage candidate, sarutobi, muu, itachi), geniuses have been caught in genjutsu ( sarutobi, itachi, oro), jinchrucki have been caught in genjutsu (yagura, bee), Sharigan users have been caught in genjutsu (kakashi, itachi sasuke). If in all these scenario's a these people have caught how can you possibly say minato is immune when not even the people ive named above are immune to it.
Read this thread if you want to know how dumb some minato fans are; (
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Another thing minato fans have said is that minato can stay away from itachi around (70 yards) and throw ftg kunai. They say that because they believe this way minato will not be caught in genjutsu because they believe itachi's genjutsu is short range. Not only are they being ignorant because itachi has displayed long range genjutsu but also in the manga AO says that itachi can produce long range genjutsu. Ill show you images of itachi using long range genjutsu, but also the link of Ao claims.
What people fail to realise is that before itachi met with naruto and sasuke during their pursit of him the real itachi was already at the uchiha hideout waiting for sasuke. The itachi that faced naruto and sasuke were kage bunshins, what people fail to realise is that kage bunshins can use the original techniques as naruto;s clones has showed us several times.
The itachi that put naruto in a genjutsu was a kage bunshin;
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Its this same kage bunshin that met put sasuke in a genjutsu then told him to come to the hideout;
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In the link below, sasuke finally reaches the hidout, where the real itachi was there waiting for him;
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Ao and shukaku talking;
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What minato fans either dont get or refuse to believe is that, once in a genjutsu (illusion), minato has to dispel it, before he can actually come back to real life and spam ftg tags.
In the first scenario if comes down to who would make the first move.
Itachi who genjutsu comes to him easy or minato who can spam ftg tags?. Personally i believe itachi.
The second senario would be me assuming minato has full knowledge of itachi's techniques therefore he doesnt look into his eyes when he fights and instead his feet
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Therefore he avoids eye contact, what they fail to get is that itachi doesnt even need eye contact as ive said above and demonstrated this with manga links.
There are many things wrond with this stragety. Firstly itachi doesnt need eye contact but also it leaves the opponent vulnerable to amaterasu as the link below would explain;
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How would minato know that he is about to get amateru'ed, if he cannot see above itachi's chin, as this link proves;
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Now if minato is looking at itachi's eyes he would no doubt be able to evade amaterasu, but if he cannot see it he cannot evade it. You cannot evade something you cannot see.
A was able to see sasuke's eyes and evade it;
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If minato is looking at his feet he cannot evade it as ive said, in order to evade it you have to be able to see it. As ive demonstrated minato either has to face the fact that he has look into itachi's eyes and fight, therefore tsukuyomi is on the card. If he decides to use gai's counter, its useless because itachi can still use genjutsu but also, he would be able to use amaterasu.
So how would minato fight this one.
Now what minato fans forget is that minato doesnt have infinite ftg kunai's he would run out of kunai's to through depending on how many he has. Minato fans say he would stand 70 yards and spam kunai, what they forget is that even if itachi's doenst know of ftg, if somebody throws a kunai at you you would obviously counter it. What i would also say is that if itachi can counter the kunai's even before it gets half way between him and minato, he is out of range of the ftg kunai's.
Do i believe itachi can counter all those kunai's?, off course. He is arguably the best kunai/shuriken thrower in the series.
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Minato fans say he would avoid close range due to genjutsu and spam ftg from long range. Well itachi's genjutsu are long range, but also those ftg kunai's wouldnt reach him because as ive showed you he would counter all of them even before it reaches him.
Now if does try close range, he would be an easier target for genjutsu but again his ftg tags would be countered.
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In long range its a pointless fight for minato, In short range he has a chance but also pointless because, ftg kunai's would be countered but also genjutsu is on the cards.
Whilst itachi is countering minato's kunai's he has shown to be so fast with handseals that he can counter every kunai and create a clone
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If minato was to rasengan itachi its highly possible that he will disperse into a flock of frows and tsukuyomi;
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Scenario 2 summary. In close range itachi has the advantage as ive described in scenario 1. In scenario 2 were minato has knowledge of itachi's techs and avoid close range and chooses long range as minat fans say, he is still as a disadvantage because at long range ftg kunai's would be countered even easier, he can still be put under genjutsu. If he tries gai's counter to the sharigan, he is vulnerable to amaterasu and if he chooses to ignore gai's counter and fight whilst looking at itachi, he can evade amaterasu but all of itachi;s other techniques/genjutsu will affect him regardless.
The final scenario is that both have full knowledge of each others techniques.
How would he fight, becaue in senario 1 its close range he is at a disadvantage as its shwoed you. In long range he is also at a disadvantage as ive showed you even if he has info on itachi.
Now if itachi can counter all of those ftg tags and isnt in range of him, minato doesnt have an ftg tag close to itachi to teleport to him and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite ftg kunai. Meaning once all those kunai's have been countered and itachi is out of range of the ftg seals, does it come down to a true fight, since minato wouldnt be given the time to try and regain his ftg kunai in order to spam it again.
Once he has finished with his kunai's and the tag still isnt in range of itachi, he has to fight using his base speed. To all the minato fans out there he didnt get his nickname, yellow flash due to his base speed but rather ftg
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Now what people seem to forget is that his base speed in high speed movement. Shunshin no jutsu as ive been said several times. Majority of ninja's who have high speed movement use this technique. I'll decode the difference betwee minato base speed, ftg and A's raiton armour.
Now A also uses shunshin (body flciker), but his body flicker isnt as fast as base minato. Its still fast as zetsu said. This is base A vs base minato.
Base A is noted to be very fast as Zetsu said;
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Still not fast enough against minato's base speed even if both use the shunshin no jutsu.
A in v1 raiton is the same speed as base minato, because he combines his shunshin no jutsu with raiton, whilst in minato's case its just shunshin but minato's shunshin as ive said is faster therefore the combination of A is shunsin and raiton v1 makes it on par with it.
As madara said, the lightning release body flicker;
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In v1 A and minato's base speed are the same. In v2 his speed is faster than minato. He has heard of A and has acknwloedged his speed;
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Thats why in the next page he decided to spam ftg, because A went v2 straight away and minato's base speed isnt as on par with v2, whilst ftg is faster than v2.
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Its because of ftg that allowed him to evade it;
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Basically what im trying to say is that;
Minato's shunshin (base speed)> A (base speed)
Minato's base speed = A raiton v1
A raiton v2 > minato's base speed
Ftg > A v2 raiton
Now that we have already established that in the 3 rd senario if itachi counters all the ftg kunai's and obviously minato doesnt have an infinite amount, he would have to fight using his base speed, especially if his ftg kunai's are out of itachi's range. Neither will he have the time to go on his kees and try to recover some of his ftg kunai's to use again. Therefore whilst he can use his base speed for offence, he can use ftg for defence because he can teleport back to where those kunai's are, but then again genjutsu is available to itachi to use if minato's teleports back to where the kunais are. That of course on how which stragety he plans on using against itachi. Looking at his feet and being amaterasu'ed or looking at his eyes and the possibility of tsukuyomi?.
Anyway now that we have seen that minato's base speed = A v1 raiton, although its still fast i can see itachi living with him.
Sasuke was able to keep up with A in v1 raiton, but also wound him.
This shows sasuke's speed (4.5/5) and reflexes ability
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Sasuke's reflexes and speed is great but not compared to itachi's. Although able to evade be's assault, he still got wounded;
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Now there is a reason why itachi has a 5/5 for speed in the data book. His reflexes and speed is greater than sasuke's.
Able to keep up with km naruto;
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Evaded both him and bee's attack;
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Evaded the same attack sasuke did, but in his case he wasnt injured at all;
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Now, im not saying itachi base = minato's base. What im saying is that he himself is no slow turtule. He has demonstrated many speed feats in the manga and deserves kishi rating of a 5/5 for speed. His speed and reflexes are faster than sasuke's.
Now bee was able to counter ftg in time in the sense that he had a knife at minato's belly.
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Now im not saying base itachi speed is ftg speed, but in this image bee wasnt able to counter the same way he did to minato;
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If itachi can get out of reach of those ftg kunai's, afterall if those kunai's do not reach the target minato also doesnt meaning that minato has to use his base speed as his main offence and ftg as his defence because at least he can teleport back to where his ftg markings are, itachi has a great chance to win this, because even if he does teleport back to where the tags are, itachi's genjutsu is long range, he still has ways to attack minato whilst minato doesnt. Not to forget he either has to chose to look at itachi's feet when he fights therefoer amarasu is on the card, If he doesnt and looks in his eyes tsukuyomis is on the card. If itachi can counter all those ftg tags and leave enough space between himself and those tags, im sure he can deal with minato's base speed not to forget he is at the advantage due to minato either not looking into his eyes or looking into his eyes. He still has long and short range attacks. In the form of defence, he can create a clone, that if gets hit he disperse. He still has susano if needed.
Minato fans are clearly biting more than they can chew, calling me out. successfully champion scenario 1. Doubt anybody would get past it LOGICALLY let alone 2 and even 3. You minato fans are clearly biting more than you can chew, running before you can walk.
This isnt a vs thread. Its just for my convenience in future debates.
If you plan on debating feel free but if it isnt worthy of a responce ill ignore it
I'm not going to take an extremely long time to respond, because I think your the only itachi vs minato fan that has but made valid points, and i respect you for that. So ill just respond to each main point, genjutsu, amaterasu, and susanoo. Also ill talk about taijutsu and kunai and things of those nature.
Genjutsu: Minato was the hokage, meaning that he was the strongest in the village(this is not my argument) theres no doubt in my mind that he was familiar with all or at least most of the villages jutsu, especially the uchiha seeing as the village was senju controlled and they senju and uchiha hated each other. Im not saying that he was a senju that knew all the uchiha's tech but he'd be a pretty lame hokage if he didnt know how to counter the abilities of the clan that was going to eventually attempt to over throw the village. But these arent areguements, what is an arguement is that minato was arguably the fastest character in the series when it comes to speed, he caught naruto when tobi threw him in the air and had the reflexes to get the bomb off him and teleport out. Now, i looked pretty hard and i couldnt find an example of a fight itachi was in where he caught the target in a genjutsu WHILE THEY WERE MOVING. Deidara, kakashi, orochimaru, sasuke, all of them were standing still before being caught in a genjutsu. If minato is at a safe distance and is constantly moving and teleporting from one place to the other(which would almost make it impossible to predict where he's gonna be if his ftg kunai are all over the place) its hard for itachi to look into his eyes and i doubt he'd stand still to try it.
Amaterasu: A was able to dodge amaterasu through shear speed and wasnt hit. We have to assume that sasuke is the more skilled amaterasu user because it was speculated in the manga, and sasuke did more with it(blaze release). Minato is most likely going to have the battlefield covered in kunai. If itachi is going to use amaterasu minato need only teleport away, for example if itachi uses amaterasu, minato teleports to a spot in which minato has to turn his body to aim the attack, at which point minato will have already teleported or attacked. Another point which probably only applies to minato. Minato was able to dodge A's full speed punch and get on his back before he knew what had happened. This shows that miantos reflexes are almost instantaneous, here is one way he would dodge amaterasu.
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I doubt that nagato is the only one that can feel the pressure that amaterasu brings but that would be minatos indicator to dodge. As i said it only applies to him because hes the only one with the reflexes to do so. My final point for amaterasu would be, as we have seen, itachi's amaterasu lies in his right eye, which he always closes before using the technique, this split second would allow minato to get away seeing as thats all he needs. And we cant assume that itachi could cast a genjutsu on him at this point because he cant use them at the same time. I say that because there is no evidence for it.
Susanoo: Believe it or not, this would be easiest for minato to counter. First of all. itachi is not capable of high speed movement while inside susanoo, he can only walk. As we all know, the only thing itachi lacked was stamina, which is exactly what susanoo would drain, and it takes up a huge amount of chakra. Minato really needs to just wait it out this point because he has what itachi lacked, stamina. This is shown when he teleported the entire kyuubi out of the village, not before using a space/time barrier to counter the TBB. Granted he was pretty tired at that point, but he still had enough chakra to put up a barrier and seal the kyuubi in naruto. Secondly if susanoo were to be used on minato, all he would have to due is use a space/time barrier on its attacks. This also applies to all of itachis ranged attacks. You cant really argue against that, due to minato being able to teleport away a Tailed beast ball, which is arguably the strongest attack in the series.
Taijutsu/extra stuff: We dont know how mianto was wiping out all those rock village ninja, but if it was with his taijutsu and kunai, its fair to say that he was very good at, although itachis sharingan would be give him trouble, but if sure he could hold his own at the very least. Mianto has also been shown to have a good amount of physical strength, seeing as he was able to cut bee's tentacle with a simple kunai. When it comes to shuriken, minato was also very skilled seeing as he was able to counter the shuriken coming at kakashi the first time he used raikiri, but again itachis sharingan would allow him to counter so when it comes to taijutsu and shuriken, itachi wins but not by a huge amount. But obviosuly it would take more than shuriken and taijutsu to beat minato. Next is seal speed, which i'd say would also go to itachi but again minatos barely behind seeing as he performed the seals for the space time barrier while a tailed beast ball was coming at him.
Finally, intelligence. Both of them are extremly smart, itachi being able to asses the situation like he did with chibaku tensei and minato being able to find the flaws with chidori after only seeing it once, and guessing that it was madara(tobi) right off the bat that was controlling the kyuubi durring the attack, which shows again that he had knowledge of the uchiha. Obviously he was wrong about tobi but itachi thought tobi was madara too. When it comes to intelligence, these guys are tied.
Please respond to this, i'd really like to hear what you have to say about my arguments, sorry it was so long but im glad that your not just a fanboy who yells at everyone all the time.
Itachi left before Minato become Hokage and before Tobi revealed his existence. He decided to wipe the clan out because they planned to stage a coup. He didn't want to usurp Sarutobi, he wanted to keep Tobi in check.
I hope someone has called you out on your post, because literally everything you said is 100% false.
Itachi was 7 when Minato died. Minato became Hokage before Itachi was probably even born.
Secondly he didn't decide to wipe out the clan, they were orders given to him. He probably agreed with them but that doesn't change the fact that they made that decision, not Itachi.
He didn't leave to keep Tobi in check, he left because he was branded a criminal (since only a few people knew the truth and they weren't going to tell anyone). However since he already had to leave he joined Akatsuki to further protect the leaf village.
It is incredible how blind Itachi Fanboys are. Minato was feared by all the other villages to the point that the shinobis were instructed to retreat if they saw Minato. Nobody was afraid of facing Itachi. Everyone measures minato for the few techniques he has shown in the few episodes he has come out, even with that he whooped Tobi/Madara. Stop hallucinating, Itachi can't beat Minato. Even Jiraya can beat Itachi, Minato would destroy him before Itachi knows what happened. Do not forget that Tobi also has Genjutsu and couldn't do a thing against Minato. If Itachi spams Susano, Minato would just use space-time ninjitsu. Wate up and let go of the Itachi/Uchiha weed. LOL
Itachi left before Minato become Hokage and before Tobi revealed his existence. He decided to wipe the clan out because they planned to stage a coup. He didn't want to usurp Sarutobi, he wanted to keep Tobi in check.
It is incredible how blind Itachi Fanboys are. Minato was feared by all the other villages to the point that the shinobis were instructed to retreat if they saw Minato. Nobody was afraid of facing Itachi. Everyone measures minato for the few techniques he has shown in the few episodes he has come out, even with that he whooped Tobi/Madara. Stop hallucinating, Itachi can't beat Minato. Even Jiraya can beat Itachi, Minato would destroy him before Itachi knows what happened. Do not forget that Tobi also has Genjutsu and couldn't do a thing against Minato. If Itachi spams Susano, Minato would just use space-time ninjitsu. Wate up and let go of the Itachi/Uchiha weed. LOL
Refer to chiyo. Sharingan genjutsu was feared. I'm no itachi fan but itachi has a big advantage in terms of bloodline abilities. Maybe Minato can beat itachi but keep in mind tsykiyomi is no joke. far as we know or what we seen tobi hasn't used genjutsu like Itachi has. Remember tobi did not attack Minato just for 1 on 1 he needed to save chakra for the kyubi he wanted to destroy konoha/obtain the 9 tails
from the series 1 wherein naruto was a young boy itachi was introduced that way...it was his drawback for his character...a strong genjutsu user with a stamina and sickly body as his weakness...in his konoha visit he even hailed kakashi and got surprised because kakashi had analyzed his abilities and the weakness of it...
While I think Itachi would likely win, that is a terrible argument.
Minato is more of a super genius than Itachi. He wasn't gifted with the sharingan through birth. He became one of the most feared men in the ninja world because he was truly skilled.
I'm not saying that Itachi isn't super skilled also. I actually think that skill wise, they are the best in the manga. Everything they do they do to perfection, and if they are weak in a certain area it is only through accidental means like getting a disease or not being born with super eyes like Itachi or Madara or Sasuke.
show a fight in the original manga or anime first then say who is stronger than whom
tobi>nagato>itachi
and minato is stronger than tobi shown in the manga so without any doubt i say minato any minato wud be able to remove susano'o with s/t barrier as it is made of chakra......
