[Discussion] kishi still got his touch

Revan

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I respect your opinion but, thank god that Kishi didn't think like you. I have no intention to see fights of filler characters and to hell with their character development. It's the story of Naruto not every Tom, **** and harry ever mentioned in the manga.

We got to see enough of the characters to understand the situation. Zabuza and Haku ended up in the same place after all and Zabuza wasn't happy to be resurrected. He insisted to be stopped then and there- that set the theme of such resurrection. Chhiyo was giving out tips to the allaince whole time. Dan asked for the barrier as soon as he forwarded towards the alliance forces. That's what happens when you force reluctant warrior to do something they don't want to do.

Most of the characters worth anything had their part in the story already told. Some like Hanzo got their closer- Hanzo had lost much respect since we saw him ambushing Yahiko and his friends by deceiving them. We got to see his rise and fall and he redeemed himself when he confronted Mifune. There was nothing more to it.

Those who were expecting some drama like Dan vs Tsunade were heading for the disappointmnt from the start because it was not going to happen. The war is still on and we are getting glimpses of relevant characters part- some bits of INo, some of Sakura, some of Shika, choji and so on.

Those who are waiting a big fight between Raikage and Naruto may end up disappointed too. Sasuke's fight showed his strength already and chances are high that it won't be repeated.

It's time for Shikaku to show his part and I 'm waiting for his solution..

...

i dont necessarily want development for every person, especially if he's going to die soon. i want character, which is something that e.g. haku, zabuza, lee, kiba, gaara, the sound four, oro and sasuke had. the ones who made it through longer time had even (except oro) character development and their attitude was the result of something shown in the flashback. give me one attitude of ginkaku, one of any swordsman (except zabuza), one of any of the revived kage, one of zetsu. give me a reason why bee is a rapper, why raikage is impatient, why danzo is sneaky and why madara is retarded.

ONly kin Gin brothers dropped out of blue and their purpose is clear... Kishi had to give some expansion to their character as well and he did. It's a matter of opinion. A lot of us are fine the way story is going and really aren't interested in development of irrelevant characters. Dead Kages or ex swordsmen of mist are not important to the world today- knowing they were capable and dangerous is enough.

Don't know what you mean by Kakazu's decision or pain and sasuke in middle of this- probably irrelevant to this thread.

ONe on one fight of each and every character--- OMG the manga would never end if we have to read the death of 40,000 shinobies. U_U

As for critique- it's the only manga he has written till date and we are reading- Critque it when it ends- giving crtique at every paragraph is neither here nor there. Level of writing can be decided as a whole not in pieces.

as i said, i prefer battles with 10 good made characters over fights with 40 characters with only one flashback and no attitude at all over fights with 40000 characters without flashback and space in the manga. if i want to see cool and fancy fights, i can go and watch dragonball again. in naruto, i expect background story, deep characters and development.


the thing with kakazu and so one was a reference to the point that i could discuss about story holes but since i could ignore them, i dont refer them as important enough.


fights dont have to be one on one and as i said the war thing doesnt really support kishi's style. how about the genin team up against an enemy and fighting him for 4-6 mangas including flashbacks and battle scenes of everybody instead of having them run one on one against zetsus 1-2 mangas each? sounds more interesting in my opinion.

writing happens in pieces, so why not giving critique in pieces? possibly one of kishi's editors or whatsoever reads this and the manga is overworked in that direction. that way we would miss the chance to make the manga better if we gave critique when everything is done.
 
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Avani

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as i said, i prefer battles with 10 good made characters over fights with 40 characters with only one flashback and no attitude at all over fights with 40000 characters without flashback and space in the manga. if i want to see cool and fancy fights, i can go and watch dragonball again. in naruto, i expect background story, deep characters and development.


the thing with kakazu and so one was a reference to the point that i could discuss about story holes but since i could ignore them, i dont refer them as important enough.


fights dont have to be one on one and as i said the war thing doesnt really support kishi's style. how about the genin team up against an enemy and fighting him for 4-6 mangas including flashbacks and battle scenes of everybody instead of having them run one on one against zetsus 1-2 mangas each? sounds more interesting in my opinion.

writing happens in pieces, so why not giving critique in pieces? possibly one of kishi's editors or whatsoever reads this and the manga is overworked in that direction. that way we would miss the chance to make the manga better if we gave critique when everything is done.

I have had enough background story. I guess it's a matter of opinion. I can't find any character about whom I want to know more among the resurrected guys save Itachi and Nagato ( and that's only because I like them and we have yet to see their purpose).

I don't want to know about Gara's dad( we know about him all we needed to in Gara's flashback) nor intetrested in seven swordsmen or dead kages. We know how Chhiyo died and how did Dan. I still don't undestand kakuzu part you mentioned (- what hole? you wanted to see his fight again? they already know about all his capabilities and a better question is where they are getting there chakra from? is it enough? Are IWR bodies really as strong as kabuto claimed or he overestimated himself- did Kishi set hm up to be failed because of overconfidence).

I repeat - I'm fine with 100 resurrections- all Kabuto did was to waste alliance force resourse and help in destroying them to half their number. Kabuto's power and his development is main here not the dead bodies. once Edo tensei is finished they are dust. I'm more interested in finding out what the hell he is doing with Madara, what he has in the sixth Coffin that he was able to make a deal with Uchiha grandpa. What's he going to do with Itachi and Nagato.

i dont demand development for every character, especially if he's going to die soon. i demand character, which is something that e.g. haku, zabuza, lee, kiba, gaara, the sound four, oro and sasuke had. the ones who made it through longer time had even (except oro) character development and their attitude was the result of something shown in the flashback. give me one attitude of ginkaku, one of any swordsman (except zabuza), one of any of the revived kage, one of zetsu. give me a reason why bee is a rapper, why raikage is impatient, why danzo is sneaky and why madara is retarded.

Ginkaku had a criminal attitude and mentality- we really don't need to feel much for him as he would be replacing the hero in gedo mezo so knowing that they tried to kill second hokage is ok.

A reason why Bee is rapper and Raikage impatient? Is there always a reasoning about someone's basic nature? Raikage is what he is. He is quite powerful and Raikage- he is used to having his way.

Bee has suffered the same hate all the jinchuriki did. It was pointed out in the manga and detailed somewhat too. His one time best friend tried to kill him, and he ignored the episode like nothing happenned. He is similar to Naruto in this - he ignores the hate and tries to enjoy life as much as he can. He longs for a free life and loves the idea of being something other than a jinchuriki.

Danzou has got enough screen time. You ned to pay more attention if you want to analyze his character. Madara is not retarted- he is cunning, selfish, power hungry, ambitious, vindictive, manipulative, strategist... a lot of things but not retarted. And manga is still going on. We will get to see more of him.
 
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i have 1 thing to say Kishi is the BEST :d
 
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i like this thread.... i mean i admit that the series has been out there so far but i enjoy reading and watching the series
 

Awesomesage

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I understand



The reason people are mostly upset is because the fights are just ahhh what the f***.Example chouji ,ino, Shikamaru were able to stop Kinkaku someone who possess the nine tails chakra like seriously, even pein couldn't stop the kyuubi at 6 tails.Another reason during the sora arc ino tryed her mind controling jutsu to take control of the 3 tails kyuubi(sora) could'nt but was able too during the fight with kinkaku seriously smh.The worst part was that she tryed it on sakura during the chunnin exam and wasn't able too, people are just tired of the bull shit no jutsu.I'm not saying kishimoto is a bad writer I like the guy and all plus me and him have the same birthday Nov 8 i see him as inspiration ,but he needs to stop with these lame ass rescues.

u r right but plz talk about kishi's work, don't compare his work with the fillers cuz the sora arc or whatever is a filler...
 

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Kishi is Amazing.....not many people can think about such a plot. NARUTO IS AMAZING! and the people who flame this may get burned in their own flame....:p
<3:)Kep up the good work Kishi!! :)<3
 

Spartan117

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I dont understand why people try to say kishi has lost his touch or how they hate the series. I mean this is kishi's story not theirs. Ill admit the war matchups is predictible but it still is fun to read. Also some idiot complained about how naruto doesnt have realism well anyone who thinks that about anime needs to get a life. People please give kishi props for making naruto I doubt you could do a better job.

Well done. I've been dieing to say to this lol. You finally came out and said it :)
 

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u r right but plz talk about kishi's work, don't compare his work with the fillers cuz the sora arc or whatever is a filler...

Well pakura & gari were introduce in naruto shippuden movie 3 so who's work is that?Fillers are used to give extra reach in details and understanding of the story,any filler given has to pass by kishimoto first before they put in anime if not we would see things like sasuke using wood element.

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ElementJnr

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Yeah he does. He is still hardly 30 ( or 29) and it's his first manga. i hope to see more work from him in future.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH how many times do i have to tell everyone This is not the first Anime his done He has done Another anime called kakakuri so his done 2 animes so far and little other ones but wait that is not no diffrence but stiLL HIS DONE MORE THAN 1 OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK:flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw: IN UR FACE :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw: OMG OMG OMG OMG U CALL URSELF A NARUTIO FAN AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw:
ANDU SAID A LIE ABOUT NARUTO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw:
 

Revan

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I have had enough background story. I guess it's a matter of opinion. I can't find any character about whom I want to know more among the resurrected guys save Itachi and Nagato ( and that's only because I like them and we have yet to see their purpose).

I don't want to know about Gara's dad( we know about him all we needed to in Gara's flashback) nor intetrested in seven swordsmen or dead kages. We know how Chhiyo died and how did Dan. I still don't undestand kakuzu part you mentioned (- what hole? you wanted to see his fight again? they already know about all his capabilities and a better question is where they are getting there chakra from? is it enough? Are IWR bodies really as strong as kabuto claimed or he overestimated himself- did Kishi set hm up to be failed because of overconfidence).

I repeat - I'm fine with 100 resurrections- all Kabuto did was to waste alliance force resourse and help in destroying them to half their number. Kabuto's power and his development is main here not the dead bodies. once Edo tensei is finished they are dust. I'm more interested in finding out what the hell he is doing with Madara, what he has in the sixth Coffin that he was able to make a deal with Uchiha grandpa. What's he going to do with Itachi and Nagato.



Ginkaku had a criminal attitude and mentality- we really don't need to feel much for him as he would be replacing the hero in gedo mezo so knowing that they tried to kill second hokage is ok.

A reason why Bee is rapper and Raikage impatient? Is there always a reasoning about someone's basic nature? Raikage is what he is. He is quite powerful and Raikage- he is used to having his way.

Bee has suffered the same hate all the jinchuriki did. It was pointed out in the manga and detailed somewhat too. His one time best friend tried to kill him, and he ignored the episode like nothing happenned. He is similar to Naruto in this - he ignores the hate and tries to enjoy life as much as he can. He longs for a free life and loves the idea of being something other than a jinchuriki.

Danzou has got enough screen time. You ned to pay more attention if you want to analyze his character. Madara is not retarted- he is cunning, selfish, power hungry, ambitious, vindictive, manipulative, strategist... a lot of things but not retarted. And manga is still going on. We will get to see more of him.

creating 40 characters who are that boring that the reader dont wanna read anything about them is kinda sad too, dont you think?

wouldnt kabuto's power be shown in a better way if he destroyed somebody strong in a fight? like omg, he beat mizukage (k, she isnt that strong, but who cares, it had a dramatical note)? like i said, the whole war concept just looks like he didnt want it.

kakazus plot hole is the way he reacted to naruto. before he was a fearsome clever enemy, and in front of naruto he became a punching ball who has never heard the word drawback. even worse, he draws every heart together so that naruto can for sure finish all of them in a blow. it's just one example where the story twists werent thought out really well. but as i said, i could ignore that. i dont have to like every decision kishi makes, most of them would be ok too.

about their basic nature? yes, often. in naruto naruto was clownish because he had a inferiority complex, as a result of being alone and having no friends. gaara is full of hate because he mirrors what others think of him. natural response of a child. kiba is brash because he lives with his family in a pack with dogs, hinata has an inferiority complex because she isnt talented and her father favored her little sister and even told her. neji is arrogant because he tries to ignore the fact that he is inferior by birth and therefore tries to convince himself that he isnt worthless. lee believes in hard work because he is fighting for his dream and is a dreamer who was alone. almost every single genin is that way. these are people who are formed by what they experience.
and raikage is apart from bee possibly the most important new side character after the time skip.

you could count madara as as important, but sadly he is just a cliché, being the evil overlord with 100 000 brainless powerless minions. i wouldnt be surprised if he turned in a snake monster in the end, but wait, we already had that. he has a power ranger mech instead. the attitudes you described are attitudes that other gave him, not attitudes we have seen from him. the only attitude i have seen from him is being a retard. cant describe falling in a deep-sea of millions of explosive tags and hiding and waiting 50 years in the dark to like two years before the plan is complete tell everybody that he wants to fight them differently. he is retarded.


danzo is pale. he is ambitious and cold, just a cliché of a evil politician. why does he want to become hokage so badly? why was he given the leadership of root if no hokage ever trusted him? where did his extreme opinions come from? yes, he's better thought out than most shippuuden characters, but he is also older than most shippuuden characters and was that way the first time we saw him.
 

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creating 40 characters who are that boring that the reader dont wanna read anything about them is kinda sad too, dont you think?

wouldnt kabuto's power be shown in a better way if he destroyed somebody strong in a fight? like omg, he beat mizukage (k, she isnt that strong, but who cares, it had a dramatical note)? like i said, the whole war concept just looks like he didnt want it.

kakazus plot hole is the way he reacted to naruto. before he was a fearsome clever enemy, and in front of naruto he became a punching ball who has never heard the word drawback. even worse, he draws every heart together so that naruto can for sure finish all of them in a blow. it's just one example where the story twists werent thought out really well. but as i said, i could ignore that. i dont have to like every decision kishi makes, most of them would be ok too.

about their basic nature? yes, often. in naruto naruto was clownish because he had a inferiority complex, as a result of being alone and having no friends. gaara is full of hate because he mirrors what others think of him. natural response of a child. kiba is brash because he lives with his family in a pack with dogs, hinata has an inferiority complex because she isnt talented and her father favored her little sister and even told her. neji is arrogant because he tries to ignore the fact that he is inferior by birth and therefore tries to convince himself that he isnt worthless. lee believes in hard work because he is fighting for his dream and is a dreamer who was alone. almost every single genin is that way. these are people who are formed by what they experience.
and raikage is apart from bee possibly the most important new side character after the time skip.

you could count madara as as important, but sadly he is just a cliché, being the evil overlord with 100 000 brainless powerless minions. i wouldnt be surprised if he turned in a snake monster in the end, but wait, we already had that. he has a power ranger mech instead. the attitudes you described are attitudes that other gave him, not attitudes we have seen from him. the only attitude i have seen from him is being a retard. cant describe falling in a deep-sea of millions of explosive tags and hiding and waiting 50 years in the dark to like two years before the plan is complete tell everybody that he wants to fight them differently. he is retarded.


danzo is pale. he is ambitious and cold, just a cliché of a evil politician. why does he want to become hokage so badly? why was he given the leadership of root if no hokage ever trusted him? where did his extreme opinions come from? yes, he's better thought out than most shippuuden characters, but he is also older than most shippuuden characters and was that way the first time we saw him.

Almost every character in this manga/anime are cliche. Naruto = Goku. Its really hard to find anything really new. Movies, TV show's, books, they have all been really written, and/or shown before. There might be slight twists, but when it boils down to it, they are always comprised of repeated themes, etc...

As far as Kabuto showing off his real power by beating a stronger enemey. I don't see this not happening. He will undoubtedly beat some tougher ninja, at some point, just maybe not in the war.
 

Revan

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Almost every character in this manga/anime are cliche. Naruto = Goku. Its really hard to find anything really new. Movies, TV show's, books, they have all been really written, and/or shown before. There might be slight twists, but when it boils down to it, they are always comprised of repeated themes, etc...

As far as Kabuto showing off his real power by beating a stronger enemey. I don't see this not happening. He will undoubtedly beat some tougher ninja, at some point, just maybe not in the war.

no. they can have trades of cliché, but most of the important characters of good animes are deeper than the usual cliché. goku is no cliché, he is stupid and he's childish, what is a huge difference to the shining hero. you could say that that has become a new cliché with people like luffy, naruto, natsu fitting it. however, these characters are different from each other. they arent pure clichés, they have some attitudes of the cliché, but arent solely restricted to it. they are based on goku, but developed into a different direction.

whereas madara is almost a pure cliché. his attitudes are all the ones you would expect from an evil end-boss. he is powerful, evil, cunning (at least that's what the people in naruto seem to think) and makes mistakes that are so obvious that every five year old child would recognize them.
 

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creating 40 characters who are that boring that the reader dont wanna read anything about them is kinda sad too, dont you think?

He didn't create all of them just now. He reused most of them. They have their part in the manga already finished. These are resurrected dead bodies of dead guys.

wouldnt kabuto's power be shown in a better way if he destroyed somebody strong in a fight? like omg, he beat mizukage (k, she isnt that strong, but who cares, it had a dramatical note)? like i said, the whole war concept just looks like he didnt want it.

Well I cannot claim to know what Kishi has in mind for Kabuto. but the way I see him= he is a skilled but overconfident and arrogant Orochimaru wannabe. Who maybe better skilled in somethings that Oro yet lacks his level of intellectualism and rushing a few things himself. His IWR tech is flawed as the resurrected shinobies are resisting him as much as they can. He couldn't understand Hanzo and realized too late what he was going to do. It seems like he had raised more people than he could handle- Orochimaru had better understanding of human nature and thus was able to manipulate them better.

IMO he would be the villain whose downfall will come because he overestimated himself too much- if he is really there to challange Sasuke.

The thing I like in Naruto is that almost all the villains have slightly different reasons behind their actions. Not everybody is here to just destory the planet and kill/eat everyone out.xd

kakazus plot hole is the way he reacted to naruto. before he was a fearsome clever enemy, and in front of naruto he became a punching ball who has never heard the word drawback. even worse, he draws every heart together so that naruto can for sure finish all of them in a blow. it's just one example where the story twists werent thought out really well. but as i said, i could ignore that. i dont have to like every decision kishi makes, most of them would be ok too.

At least two of his hearts were already destroyed- he didn't gathered them all together just for Naruto. In fact, when he started gathring thm kakashi saw red if I remember it correctly.

Naruto used his new tech rasenshuriken(?) on him which destroyed every cell in his body, and it wasn't that easy. he failed it twice and only succeded in third time- taking a risk Kakuzu hadn't aniticipated.

about their basic nature? yes, often. in naruto naruto was clownish because he had a inferiority complex, as a result of being alone and having no friends. gaara is full of hate because he mirrors what others think of him. natural response of a child. kiba is brash because he lives with his family in a pack with dogs, hinata has an inferiority complex because she isnt talented and her father favored her little sister and even told her. neji is arrogant because he tries to ignore the fact that he is inferior by birth and therefore tries to convince himself that he isnt worthless. lee believes in hard work because he is fighting for his dream and is a dreamer who was alone. almost every single genin is that way. these are people who are formed by what they experience.
and raikage is apart from bee possibly the most important new side character after the time skip.

Well I explained nature of those characters the way I see it already. Raikage's nature is not explained more because he isn't as imporatant to the plot as the genins- who were among Naruto's first real contacts and friends.

you could count madara as as important, but sadly he is just a cliché, being the evil overlord with 100 000 brainless powerless minions. i wouldnt be surprised if he turned in a snake monster in the end, but wait, we already had that. he has a power ranger mech instead. the attitudes you described are attitudes that other gave him, not attitudes we have seen from him. the only attitude i have seen from him is being a retard. cant describe falling in a deep-sea of millions of explosive tags and hiding and waiting 50 years in the dark to like two years before the plan is complete tell everybody that he wants to fight them differently. he is retarded.

The others gave him that attitude? how? that guy helped Itachi in killing off his own clan because he felt betrayed and wanted KOnoha destroyed- that's vindictive. He manipulated Itachi, Nagato, sasuke seems to be playing some kind of role in every ninja war, playing mizukage, experimenting with Hashirama's cells and attaining Izanagi.

He maybe cliche- most of the villains and heros are. ( Luffy is cliche, Villains of DBZ were boring if you are more than 15)

danzo is pale. he is ambitious and cold, just a cliché of a evil politician. why does he want to become hokage so badly? why was he given the leadership of root if no hokage ever trusted him? where did his extreme opinions come from? yes, he's better thought out than most shippuuden characters, but he is also older than most shippuuden characters and was that way the first time we saw him.

There are always hard liners as well as linient politicians. He founded root- if I remember correctly. he was not given the leadrship, he made himself one. He had his supporters among elder etc so Hokages didn't do much against him. also they couldn't totally disagree with him at some points because ideologically he was not 100% wrong either. Even tsunade thought that he ultimately wants good of Konoha so she tolerated him.

He wanted to become Hokage because he thought he could do a better job than Sarutobi- he didn't agree with his ideals.
 

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AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH how many times do i have to tell everyone This is not the first Anime his done He has done Another anime called kakakuri so his done 2 animes so far and little other ones but wait that is not no diffrence but stiLL HIS DONE MORE THAN 1 OKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK:flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw: IN UR FACE :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw: OMG OMG OMG OMG U CALL URSELF A NARUTIO FAN AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw:
ANDU SAID A LIE ABOUT NARUTO AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH :flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw::flaw:

Actually he has done three manga but no anime ( I assume you know the difference between manga and anime.)- Kakakuri, Naruto and Bench.

Kakakuri was a fail when serialised and Bench was one shot if I remember correctly.

Naruto is his first successful manga serial. And don't take cannbis in future while typing- it makes you crazy.
 

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Actually he has done three manga but no anime ( I assume you know the difference between manga and anime.)- Kakakuri, Naruto and Bench.

Kakakuri was a fail when serialised and Bench was one shot if I remember correctly.

Naruto is his first successful manga serial. And don't take cannbis in future while typing- it makes you crazy.

I didnt know that.
 

Revan

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He didn't create all of them just now. He reused most of them. They have their part in the manga already finished. These are resurrected dead bodies of dead guys.
i dont think so, the kage are all new, the bijuus are all new and half of the special nins too. we have seen only akatsuki complete before. and getting to know how the old kage have been would interest me.
if the point was that they arent interesting because they are dead and therefore wont play a bigger role in the manga than i have to answer that that is kishi's fault. using zombies implies boring enemies. that's why zombie splatter gets its tension from shock-effects and unpredictability who will survive. that just wont happen in naruto.


Well I cannot claim to know what Kishi has in mind for Kabuto. but the way I see him= he is a skilled but overconfident and arrogant Orochimaru wannabe. Who maybe better skilled in somethings that Oro yet lacks his level of intellectualism and rushing a few things himself. His IWR tech is flawed as the resurrected shinobies are resisting him as much as they can. He couldn't understand Hanzo and realized too late what he was going to do. It seems like he had raised more people than he could handle- Orochimaru had better understanding of human nature and thus was able to manipulate them better.

IMO he would be the villain whose downfall will come because he overestimated himself too much- if he is really there to challange Sasuke.

The thing I like in Naruto is that almost all the villains have slightly different reasons behind their actions. Not everybody is here to just destory the planet and kill/eat everyone out.xd

i like that too, oro although he was weird, was a good villain and kaboro is from his basic creation not so bad either. still creating 30 mangas to introduce a new enemy without having him ever fight seriously and showing him only 1/20 of the time is kinda ineffective. in my eyes his introducing was done before the war began, so iwr isnt really about kabuto in my opinion.

At least two of his hearts were already destroyed- he didn't gathered them all together just for Naruto. In fact, when he started gathring thm kakashi saw red if I remember it correctly.

Naruto used his new tech rasenshuriken(?) on him which destroyed every cell in his body, and it wasn't that easy. he failed it twice and only succeded in third time- taking a risk Kakuzu hadn't aniticipated.

ok, he didnt explicit gathered them for naruto, but he didnt split them, what would have been the normal reaction. he's 1 vs 7, he shouldnt weaken his mobility. and "wow, it's rasenshuriken, it will crush me if it hits me, i'll not split up to cover my back and have two backups if it hits" sounds not like something that someone who reacts to explosive kunais with throwing his arm away to have a backup in a worst case scenario would do.
the whole idea of kakazu continuing the fight at that point is just plain absurd. he should have run for it, he couldnt have won there anyways and he should have been clever enough to recognize that.
it was just that naruto showing off was more important than the consistency of the story.

Well I explained nature of those characters the way I see it already. Raikage's nature is not explained more because he isn't as imporatant to the plot as the genins- who were among Naruto's first real contacts and friends.

i dont think that raikage had less impact on the story. he's currently the most important kage and had discussions with naruto and a fight with sasuke. compare him to tsunade in naruto, tsunade had way more scenes and flashbacks when she was introduced. kishi just isnt giving his characters that much time anymore. quantity rather than quality nowadays.

The others gave him that attitude? how? that guy helped Itachi in killing off his own clan because he felt betrayed and wanted KOnoha destroyed- that's vindictive. He manipulated Itachi, Nagato, sasuke seems to be playing some kind of role in every ninja war, playing mizukage, experimenting with Hashirama's cells and attaining Izanagi.

He maybe cliche- most of the villains and heros are. ( Luffy is cliche, Villains of DBZ were boring if you are more than 15)
we havent even see that happen. all of madara's cruelty and vindictiveness are stories so far. being able to manipulate sasuke after he recognized that itachi liked him is nothing that requires intelligence. i havent seen him done one thing where i though: "wow, that guy is badass/evil." and even worse, he is awful in things in which every cliché evil easily trumps.
-his rule-the-world-plan is the most boring i have ever read
-his clothing style is plain awful, his face is covered (yes, that's a critique-point, e.g. oro became part of his image because of his face)
-his fighting style is non-spectacular and single target
-his shown actions were retarded.
as a final boss he is one the worst i have seen so far, even every evil laughing cliché demon is better. the new powerranger-ninja-suit didnt help. and as character he hasnt shown anything that doesnt fit in the cliché. if i use a cliché i should at least satisfy where the cliché is good at.

luffy isnt a cliché, he's developing and popular enough to become his own original cliché. he became from pretty retarded to pretty badass without becoming implausible.

i didnt say that dbz had good characters, in fact i regard dragonball as an example for bad characters. the hero-crew is barely acceptable, but the villains are terrible. that's why naruto was always better.

There are always hard liners as well as linient politicians. He founded root- if I remember correctly. he was not given the leadrship, he made himself one. He had his supporters among elder etc so Hokages didn't do much against him. also they couldn't totally disagree with him at some points because ideologically he was not 100% wrong either. Even tsunade thought that he ultimately wants good of Konoha so she tolerated him.

He wanted to become Hokage because he thought he could do a better job than Sarutobi- he didn't agree with his ideals.
might be that he founded root, i dont really recognize either xd however, why can he easily create an organization that recruits ninjas? doesn he need a permission from the council or the hokage to create something like that?
the moment he didnt fight pain i would have judged him as a traitor. he left his city when it was attacked.
of course he disagreed with sarutobi's ideals, the third introduced the will of fire, which is a huge step away from the cold elite-soldier way of thinking that danzo and and the old kage seemed to share.
madara was banished after he tried to oppose hashirama, danzo was aloud to create his ninja-organization after fighting the third. something's odd there. however, yes, danzo is among the better done characters in the last 200 mangas, but we have tons who are awful.
 
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Dissension

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no. they can have trades of cliché, but most of the important characters of good animes are deeper than the usual cliché. goku is no cliché, he is stupid and he's childish, what is a huge difference to the shining hero. you could say that that has become a new cliché with people like luffy, naruto, natsu fitting it. however, these characters are different from each other. they arent pure clichés, they have some attitudes of the cliché, but arent solely restricted to it. they are based on goku, but developed into a different direction.

whereas madara is almost a pure cliché. his attitudes are all the ones you would expect from an evil end-boss. he is powerful, evil, cunning (at least that's what the people in naruto seem to think) and makes mistakes that are so obvious that every five year old child would recognize them.

Like I said, most things written today are not original. They are taken from other writings, TV show's, etc, with slight twists, making them some what different, but still not completely original.

Son Goku is based loosely on Sūn Wùkōng, from the book "Journey to the West", which was originally published in the 1590's according to wikipedia.
 

Avani

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i dont think so, the kage are all new, the bijuus are all new and half of the special nins too. we have seen only akatsuki complete before. and getting to know how the old kage have been would interest me.
if the point was that they arent interesting because they are dead and therefore wont play a bigger role in the manga than i have to answer that that is kishi's fault. using zombies implies boring enemies. that's why zombie splatter gets its tension from shock-effects and unpredictability who will survive. that just wont happen in naruto.

Not all Kage's are new . We have seen a few of them before and aware of their powers and really they are here for a few panels. Their being Kage is just to inform that they are powerful shinobies. In any book/novel/comic/movie when some stron mascular guy who has lots of wapons in hands appear one doesn't expect to hear his life history. it's enough to know that he is dangerous and his intent here is to kill.

It's a manga. I don't remember even among classical writers writers like Sir Walter Scot explained every character out there in the battle field in such details as you are demanding. And I have read plenty of them.

It will serve no purpose but to strech the manga and deviate the attention from main story to listen to sob story of random characters- yes random even if they were supoosed to be Kages.


i like that too, oro although he was weird, was a good villain and kaboro is from his basic creation not so bad either. still creating 30 mangas to introduce a new enemy without having him ever fight seriously and showing him only 1/20 of the time is kinda ineffective. in my eyes his introducing was done before the war began, so iwr isnt really about kabuto in my opinion.

Well I think it has something to do with Kabuto as he made a deal with Madara. He asked for Sasuke in return so he had to raise enough bodies. kabuto confuses me and I would like to know what he is upto.

[kakuzu}ok, he didnt explicit gathered them for naruto, but he didnt split them, what would have been the normal reaction. he's 1 vs 7, he shouldnt weaken his mobility. and "wow, it's rasenshuriken, it will crush me if it hits me, i'll not split up to cover my back and have two backups if it hits" sounds not like something that someone who reacts to explosive kunais with throwing his arm away to have a backup in a worst case scenario would do.
the whole idea of kakazu continuing the fight at that point is just plain absurd. he should have run for it, he couldnt have won there anyways and he should have been clever enough to recognize that.
it was just that naruto showing off was more important than the consistency of the story.[/quote]

Did it occur to you that what Naruto tried was the first time anyone had done- mixed wind element with Rasengan and Naruto has extraordinary chakra. kakauzu underestimated him. He might have though himself strongr too in that form. he couldn't aniticipate the full impact of a move which was never really used before.

Besides if the bad guys would run away just like that they will never die. His story was up.

i dont think that raikage had less impact on the story. he's currently the most important kage and had discussions with naruto and a fight with sasuke. compare him to tsunade in naruto, tsunade had way more scenes and flashbacks when she was introduced. kishi just isnt giving his characters that much time anymore. quantity rather than quality nowadays.

Are you kidding me? Tsunade is way more important character of the manga than Raikage. The manga is Naruto/ Naruto belongs to Konoha and she is Hokage and related to him in many ways. Raikage's job is to ultimately bow to wisdom of naruto and step aside.

His disscussion with naruto and confrontation with Sasuke was the enough screen time he was going to get. He saw humble side of naruto and he would see the power he has and learn not to underestimate him. Sasuke fight was to show that he was powerful himself and that has made him arrogant.

We havent even see that happen. all of madara's cruelty and vindictiveness are stories so far. being able to manipulate sasuke after he recognized that itachi liked him is nothing that requires intelligence. i havent seen him done one thing where i though: "wow, that guy is badass/evil." and even worse, he is awful in things in which every cliché evil easily trumps.
-his rule-the-world-plan is the most boring i have ever read
-his clothing style is plain awful, his face is covered (yes, that's a critique-point, e.g. oro became part of his image because of his face)
-his fighting style is non-spectacular and single target
-his shown actions were retarded.
as a final boss he is one the worst i have seen so far, even every evil laughing cliché demon is better. the new powerranger-ninja-suit didnt help. and as character he hasnt shown anything that doesnt fit in the cliché. if i use a cliché i should at least satisfy where the cliché is good at.

luffy isnt a cliché, he's developing and popular enough to become his own original cliché. he became from pretty retarded to pretty badass without becoming implausible.

Well it's a matter of opinion. I really don't think that we need to see everything madara had been doing, just learning is enough. the manga is already going on for 7 years. And he has been kind of ruling for a long time -from the shadows. villains are retarted in one way or another otherwise they would be the good guys. :p the best villain was Oro and Madara is yet to be revealed totally so I will reserve my judgement for now.

About luffy - he is developing like Naruto developed... that's cliche- off course the story line is different. But they all started in the similar way- an impossible dream to catch and a determination which was slowly recognised by others and all that common stuff. I'm not exactly following the manga and i watched the anime till the introduction of Sanji and a few random episodes after that- but that gives a general idea.

i didnt say that dbz had good characters, in fact i regard dragonball as an example for bad characters. the hero-crew is barely acceptable, but the villains are terrible. that's why naruto was always better.

fair enough.


might be that he founded root, i dont really recognize either xd however, why can he easily create an organization that recruits ninjas? doesn he need a permission from the council or the hokage to create something like that?
the moment he didnt fight pain i would have judged him as a traitor. he left his city when it was attacked.
of course he disagreed with sarutobi's ideals, the third introduced the will of fire, which is a huge step away from the cold elite-soldier way of thinking that danzo and and the old kage seemed to share.
madara was banished after he tried to oppose hashirama, danzo was aloud to create his ninja-organization after fighting the third. something's odd there. however, yes, danzo is among the better done characters in the last 200 mangas, but we have tons who are awful.

Root was kind of supported by elders... Root kept an eye on ambu and Ambu returned the favour.. both tried to keep their secrets from each other. We see that elders forced Tsunade to accept Sai from root to join Naruto's team.

Danzou gave a fair challange to Sarutobi for the position of Hokage and when defeatd he accepted it and remianed in the village and started his own root etc. Madara wasn't banished- when he wasn't chosen as hokage he tried to start a war along with his clan. the clan refused. he then challanged Hashirama alone and supposedly died.

He didn't leave the city he hid and was there to kill the messenger frog. Nobody found out what he had been upto otherwise and he managd to become interim Hokage and died soon after.

You are reading too many mangas and for too long and forgetting the story...:p

But it was a fun to debate with you. :)
 
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desbes99

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he is good that's a definite its just that lately it seems he is not putting as much effort on the manga and is trying to rush the fights a bit by using thiong that are a bit like mayde up on the spot but i dont mind it that much because it is still really good
 

Revan

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Not all Kage's are new . We have seen a few of them before and aware of their powers and really they are here for a few panels. Their being Kage is just to inform that they are powerful shinobies. In any book/novel/comic/movie when some stron mascular guy who has lots of wapons in hands appear one doesn't expect to hear his life history. it's enough to know that he is dangerous and his intent here is to kill.

It's a manga. I don't remember even among classical writers writers like Sir Walter Scot explained every character out there in the battle field in such details as you are demanding. And I have read plenty of them.

It will serve no purpose but to strech the manga and deviate the attention from main story to listen to sob story of random characters- yes random even if they were supoosed to be Kages.
then he should maybe reduce the number of characters. i dont wanna have a story of every zetsu, just a story for the stronger and more important enemies.
fighting these often name- and storyless characters is usually used to show how much the main-character has grown. these arent interesting, yes, but that's why the fights against them should be done in 5 minutes.

having 40 strong characters being beaten in such a short time is to much to develop the single persons and fights, but to much to be done in few mangas. it's quantity over quality, whereas currently better mangas just keep the numbers low. naruto did that in the beginning too.
Well I think it has something to do with Kabuto as he made a deal with Madara. He asked for Sasuke in return so he had to raise enough bodies. kabuto confuses me and I would like to know what he is upto.
me too, i dont like IWR, but his way of acting is interesting.

Did it occur to you that what Naruto tried was the first time anyone had done- mixed wind element with Rasengan and Naruto has extraordinary chakra. kakauzu underestimated him. He might have though himself strongr too in that form. he couldn't aniticipate the full impact of a move which was never really used before.


kakazu knew in the instant when it was formed that he couldnt afford to be hit by that. his analysis of the situation was perfect. if i create a character who is supposed to be clever than that character should react to the situation accordingly and not notice "i'm screwed if this goes on this way" and dont react at all.

apart from that kakazu was naruto's personal nightmare as an enemy. he is long ranged with devastating and fast attacks, completely nullifying kage bunshins by his area of effect and can spam them against the not-so-fast naruto. naruto cant fight that if kakazu decides to fight offensively. instead he decided to let him come and played the punching ball.
Besides if the bad guys would run away just like that they will never die. His story was up.
then he should be killed while drawing back. kakazu can afford loosing two of three hearts, he's perfect for hit and run tactics, not having him utilize them is a waste of his character. from the perspective of the story-writer you are right, it's his time to die, but he shouldnt be killed that easily.

Are you kidding me? Tsunade is way more important character of the manga than Raikage. The manga is Naruto/ Naruto belongs to Konoha and she is Hokage and related to him in many ways. Raikage's job is to ultimately bow to wisdom of naruto and step aside.

His disscussion with naruto and confrontation with Sasuke was the enough screen time he was going to get. He saw humble side of naruto and he would see the power he has and learn not to underestimate him. Sasuke fight was to show that he was powerful himself and that has made him arrogant.
tsunade was introduced in naruto before the time skip when 2/3 of the story was done (like raikage), had one big and one small fight (like raikage) and is the leader of the troops in the last third part (like raikage). she's not immediately naruto's teacher but his big boss (like raikage) and begins to value him during the time when she gets to know him. she respects his teacher (like raikage kakashi). she has a few entrances here and there (like raikage) but mostly giving orders (like raikage). they are similar in their meaning for the manga.

Well it's a matter of opinion. I really don't think that we need to see everything madara had been doing, just learning is enough. the manga is already going on for 7 years. And he has been kind of ruling for a long time -from the shadows. villains are retarted in one way or another otherwise they would be the good guys. :p the best villain was Oro and Madara is yet to be revealed totally so I will reserve my judgement for now.
yes, probably. but you seem to agree with me so far that he has to be developed more.
i dont think that we need flashbacks from everything either, but it would be a good way to develop him as the main evil. i would be also okay for me if he did something really evil and badass.

About luffy - he is developing like Naruto developed... that's cliche- off course the story line is different. But they all started in the similar way- an impossible dream to catch and a determination which was slowly recognised by others and all that common stuff. I'm not exactly following the manga and i watched the anime till the introduction of Sanji and a few random episodes after that- but that gives a general idea.
developing the hero is the bread and butter for a good story. he doesnt develop in the same direction, he can be cruel if he has to and is becoming badass without loosing his character in difference to naruto who seems to become a messiah (which i personally think is more boring and apart from that just not as realistic) while loosing his character.

Root was kind of supported by elders... Root kept an eye on ambu and Ambu returned the favour.. both tried to keep their secrets from each other. We see that elders forced Tsunade to accept Sai from root to join Naruto's team.

Danzou gave a fair challange to Sarutobi for the position of Hokage and when defeatd he accepted it and remianed in the village and started his own root etc. Madara wasn't banished- when he wasn't chosen as hokage he tried to start a war along with his clan. the clan refused. he then challanged Hashirama alone and supposedly died.

He didn't leave the city he hid and was there to kill the messenger frog. Nobody found out what he had been upto otherwise and he managd to become interim Hokage and died soon after.
but i cant believe that nobody noticed that root and danzo werent there when pain attacked. the elders should have. yes, danzo's background story is okay, i'll give you that ;)

You are reading too many mangas and for too long and forgetting the story...:p
might be >.< but maybe now I have the greater perspective on naruto because of that :p
But it was a fun to debate with you. :)

yeah, for me too :D

Like I said, most things written today are not original. They are taken from other writings, TV show's, etc, with slight twists, making them some what different, but still not completely original.

Son Goku is based loosely on Sūn Wùkōng, from the book "Journey to the West", which was originally published in the 1590's according to wikipedia.

yes i agree, but the art is to change it enough that it isnt just like the original. i dont have a problem with naruto, luffy and son goku being similar, they just shouldnt be the same. and they develop into different directions, so everything is fine.


as long as he's loosely oriented i dont have a problem with that. he just shouldnt be exactly like that if i know the other thing already.
 
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